Does this actually work? I thought extracts could only affect the alchemist him(her)self.
What about if you have the infusion discovery?
Remember Alchemists can use Wands, so some of their "formulae" are there for that reason.
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While checking stuff for another question I have found this little gem.
My Rule Lawyer self pushes me onto going very medieval on the guy that wrote the text on how the communal spells work, as it lacks plenty of information.
A Note on Alchemists: Dispensing communal formulae to creatures requires that the alchemist have the infusion discovery. Without it, the alchemist cannot use communal spells as formulae.
Hypothesis on what that means:
a) the alchemist makes an infusion, the first guy drinks some units of use, then a second guy takes it and drinks some other units of use, then a third guy does it, and so on until all the infusion has been drunk.
b) the alchemist drinks the infusion and then delivers the effect by touch as if he had cast a normal spell.
I think that b) is how it is intended to work, but a) too is interesting, as long as it doesn't allow people to extend the duration of the spell i.e., as long as the guy that drinks the extract after a few rounds has those rounds deducted by the duration of the x round of effect of the extract he drunk.
In any instance, the communal spells are meant to affect multiple targets even when made into extracts.
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While checking stuff for another question I have found this little gem.
My Rule Lawyer self pushes me onto going very medieval on the guy that wrote the text on how the communal spells work, as it lacks plenty of information.A Note on Alchemists: Dispensing communal formulae to creatures requires that the alchemist have the infusion discovery. Without it, the alchemist cannot use communal spells as formulae.Hypothesis on what that means:
a) the alchemist makes an infusion, the first guy drinks some units of use, then a second guy takes it and drinks some other units of use, then a third guy does it, and so on until all the infusion has been drunk.
b) the alchemist drinks the infusion and then delivers the effect by touch as if he had cast a normal spell.
I think that b) is how it is intended to work, but a) too is interesting, as long as it doesn't allow people to extend the duration of the spell i.e., as long as the guy that drinks the extract after a few rounds has those rounds deducted by the duration of the x round of effect of the extract he drunk.
In any instance, the communal spells are meant to affect multiple targets even when made into extracts.
Interesting catch (http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatSpellLists.html for reference).
I guess the real question is: How does a potion of a Communal spell work? Since extracts / infusions 'behave like spells in potion form' in most ways, I'd assume the two would work the same in this case (barring a specific exception).
Since potions are supposed to be single-user items, I've always assumed the drinker gets the full duration and that extracts / infusions would work the same way, but that line you found has me scratching my head a bit: Not certain if it was written by someone who didn't fully understand how extracts / infusions work (it's a bit of a niche area), or if a broader explanation got cut from the final product...
I'd imagine that communal extracts are done by effectively decanting the original extract into multiple smaller diluted doses that are handed out to everyone who is to gain benefit, since it requires infusion to work...
Infusions require the recipient to spend an action to consume, which in some circumstances can be a boon, but in others is a hindrance. In the case of communal infusions, it is most certainly a hindrance. Getting a whole party to agree to spend an action to knock back an extract so that you can provide a communal effect is horrible. Honestly though, because of that, I don't think it would be too overpowered to allow someone who drinks their portion of the infusion late to still get their full duration out of it... especially when you consider how communal spell durations work, split between the total number of targets. The main difference here is that an alchemist determines how many targets they will effect when they prepare the infused extract, so all doses are already preset at the correct reduced durations.
I mean, Extracts are like Potions except when they're not:
- Extracts can only affect the Alchemist who brewed them - the Infusion discovery can change this.
- Extracts are drawn and consumed as a single standard action.
- Extracts cannot be made for spells that have Focus components - so no Extract of True Strike, even though it's on their formula list.
- And I guess Communal Extracts are a thing.
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I'd imagine that communal extracts are done by effectively decanting the original extract into multiple smaller diluted doses that are handed out to everyone who is to gain benefit, since it requires infusion to work...
Infusions require the recipient to spend an action to consume, which in some circumstances can be a boon, but in others is a hindrance. In the case of communal infusions, it is most certainly a hindrance. Getting a whole party to agree to spend an action to knock back an extract so that you can provide a communal effect is horrible. Honestly though, because of that, I don't think it would be too overpowered to allow someone who drinks their portion of the infusion late to still get their full duration out of it... especially when you consider how communal spell durations work, split between the total number of targets. The main difference here is that an alchemist determines how many targets they will effect when they prepare the infused extract, so all doses are already preset at the correct reduced durations.
My problem with that is that an alchemist (or other classes with the appropriate archetype) could prepare an extract of Resist energy communal with a duration of 50 minutes, separate it in 5 10 minutes doses, and drink it one dose now, another one after 30 minutes, another one after two hours and so on, allowing him to benefit from a spell with 50 minutes of duration like it was 5 spells with a 10 minutes duration.
The action cost is a so-so problem. True, multiple characters would have to spend an action, but there can be any distance between them, while touching multiple persons in the same round requires the group to be bunched together until the spellcaster acts.
Especially with spells with a minimum time increment of 10 minutes the action cost is negligeable.
- Extracts cannot be made for spells that have Focus components - so no Extract of True Strike, even though it's on their formula list.Odd that there is a FAQ that asks specifically about an Infusion of True Strike and they respond as if it were possible. But that's probably more of a case of answering one aspect of the question(personal spells as infusions) and not doing their due diligence(checking for other reasons it's no allowed).
That's ... kind-of hilarious.
Or ... was the wording ever changed in the Alchemist's Extracts entry? Maybe the "No focus components" thing WAS them closing the loophole ...?
@Diego, Chell and Taja.
I think Diego's 2 options are probably the most likely to be deemed correct.
B) The Alchemist drinks then gets a free touch for eveyone nearby seems the most likely to be RAW ... though even this is a bit debatable.
A) Everyone takes a drink is definitely how I'd run it. It fits thematically much better, and seems more likely to be RAI .
I'd probably even let them parcel it out in 10 minute increments throughout the day. Is it a bit of a buff? Sure. Is it going to break the game? I doubt it.
- Extracts cannot be made for spells that have Focus components - so no Extract of True Strike, even though it's on their formula list.Odd that there is a FAQ that asks specifically about an Infusion of True Strike and they respond as if it were possible. But that's probably more of a case of answering one aspect of the question(personal spells as infusions) and not doing their due diligence(checking for other reasons it's no allowed).That's ... kind-of hilarious.
Or ... was the wording ever changed in the Alchemist's Extracts entry? Maybe the "No focus components" thing WAS them closing the loophole ...?
Honestly I think they forgot that they even included that line on extracts right after they wrote the rule… their very own iconic alchemist uses extracts of true strike even… as do many alchemist NPC entries, take a look at the Drow Poisoner for example, they have 2 extracts of true strike prepared in their entry… the rule may not have ever been errata’d or addressed directly in any FAQ, but it is quite clear from the usage examples provided by NPC entries that the no extracts that require focus components rule should simply be ignored… Paizo ignores it after all….
Alternatively it can be addressed through the rule that directly follows the no extracts with focus components rule… extracts that duplicate the effects of a divine spell never use a divine focus component… true strike is a divine spell for inquisitors, and spells with normal focus components when cast as divine spells use the divine focus instead of the listed focus component… so if you look at it from that perspective, alchemist aren’t brewing the arcane version of true strike , but rather the divine version and thus, no focus component.
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@Diego, Chell and Taja.
I think Diego's 2 options are probably the most likely to be deemed correct.
B) The Alchemist drinks then gets a free touch for eveyone nearby seems the most likely to be RAW ... though even this is a bit debatable.
A) Everyone takes a drink is definitely how I'd run it. It fits thematically much better, and seems more likely to be RAI .
I'd probably even let them parcel it out in 10 minute increments throughout the day. Is it a bit of a buff? Sure. Is it going to break the game? I doubt it.
Honestly, I'd probably go with 'Since potions / infusions only have a single target (the consumer), that line from ultimate combat was an error and should be ignored' as the other options just don't make much sense: A Communal buff in potion / infusion form can't be spread over multiple creatures.
It's simpler and fits better with how potions / Infusions generally work...
@Diego, Chell and Taja.
I think Diego's 2 options are probably the most likely to be deemed correct.
B) The Alchemist drinks then gets a free touch for eveyone nearby seems the most likely to be RAW ... though even this is a bit debatable.
A) Everyone takes a drink is definitely how I'd run it. It fits thematically much better, and seems more likely to be RAI .
I'd probably even let them parcel it out in 10 minute increments throughout the day. Is it a bit of a buff? Sure. Is it going to break the game? I doubt it.
Honestly, I'd probably go with 'Since potions / infusions only have a single target (the consumer), that line from ultimate combat was an error and should be ignored' as the other options just don't make much sense: A Communal buff in potion / infusion form can't be spread over multiple creatures.
It's simpler and fits better with how potions / Infusions generally work...
That approach effectively makes communal extracts utterly worthless, the communal versions of spells are rarely ever better than the noncommunal versionswhen cast on a single target. They have the same maximum duration, grant all the same bonuses, etc… their only “advantage” is higher spell level making it slightly harder to dispel them…
Ultimately this comes down to a few flaws with the whole extracts system to begin with… attempting to convert the existing spell system into an entirely new “non-spell” system has inherent flaws… and very few of those inherent flaws were ever addressed by the system, and the few that were addressed were done so in ways that actually created even more flaws… (See focus components)
Note it isn't any harder to dispel them short of casting the spell as a direct counterspell, as normal dispel magic works off the spell's caster level, not the spell level. So an alchemist who chooses to burn a high level spell slot vs a lower one has the same chance of having it simply dispelled, because it's still just based on their caster level.
The Alchemist drinks then gets a free touch for everyone nearby, is how we run it
Yeah I think this is probably RAW ... I also don't like it. It makes Extracts more like spells and less like potions, which isn't the flavour I want for my Alchemist. Your milage may vary though, if you like it then go for it.
That approach effectively makes communal extracts utterly worthless, the communal versions of spells are rarely ever better than the noncommunal versionswhen cast on a single target. They have the same maximum duration, grant all the same bonuses, etc… their only “advantage” is higher spell level making it slightly harder to dispel them…
Except for COMMUNAL WATER WALK. Water Walk already affects 1 creature per level, so Communal Water Walk is actually a spell-level lower than Water Walk.
"But wait" I hear you ask, "Why is that relevant? Water Walk isn't even on the Alchemist's formula list."
Well it's because they originally wrote Communal Water Walk as a 4th level spell, making it a worse version of the original spell that was a higher level. They changed it after players pointed out the mistake. This lends credence to the idea that they really just didn't think things through, and that these abilities don't work properly, so rule however you want because there is no RAW.
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This lends credence to the idea that they really just didn't think things through, and that these abilities don't work properly, so rule however you want because there is no RAW.
THIS.
MrCharisma just answered every question in the rules arena with one run-on sentence. Past, present, and future questions should just be directed to MrCharisma's post.
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XD
That made me laugh.
In case I wasn't clear I was referring to the fact that they do sometimes get a detail wrong and it ends up with a more serious run-on effect than usual. Communal Water Walk is a good example, but it's also a similar editing issue to an extract of True Strike or - more relevant to this thread - Communal Resist Energy.
Wierdly this is actually one of the strongest arguments for PF2 ... and I made it by accident =P
Rules bloat means that writing new material requires a higher and higher degree of system mastery until inevitably something is published that doesn't fit the system. It's easy for players to find the mistakes since each player only needs to memorize one rule each and we have everything covered. The devs have to keep an encyclopedia in their heads just to make sure a single new feat doesn't unbalance the game ...
Which is a shame, I much prefer PF1.
I love the intracies and depth of design in PF1. For better or for worse PF2 will likely never be as deep - and that's by design - but it can be broader. It can expand and add new options waay more easily than PF1 can in the long run because everything is more streamlined.
...
Sorry this didn't go where I expected it to. That's what I get for powting late at night..
*ahem*
Yes VoodistMonk I am teh best at teh Rulez!
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Ultimately this comes down to a few flaws with the whole extracts system to begin with… attempting to convert the existing spell system into an entirely new “non-spell” system has inherent flaws… and very few of those inherent flaws were ever addressed by the system, and the few that were addressed were done so in ways that actually created even more flaws… (See focus components)
I would say that the extracts-infusions rules have more than a few flaws.
The trick of using the Touch Injection spell/infusion and personal range spell with negative effects and no save or spell resistance, like Polypurpose Panacea, can kill even the mightiest dragon if you can cast a combo of one second level spell and one first level spell and hit its touch AC. It will require a coup de grace against a sleeping creature, but you have an hour to prepare and deliver it.
Several other spells have strange effects if made into infusions. Extracts are an interesting idea, but they needed more development to work flawlessly.
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I would say that the extracts-infusions rules have more than a few flaws.
The trick of using the Touch Injection spell/infusion and personal range spell with negative effects and no save or spell resistance, like Polypurpose Panacea, can kill even the mightiest dragon if you can cast a combo of one second level spell and one first level spell and hit its touch AC. It will require a coup de grace against a sleeping creature, but you have an hour to prepare and deliver it.
Several other spells have strange effects if made into infusions. Extracts are an interesting idea, but they needed more development to work flawlessly.
Touch Injection now gives a Fort save and SR for Personal range infusions. Poisoner's Gloves got the same treatment, Fort save and SR. Injection Spear and Syringe Spear weren't updated but that is likely because they are from a bit more obscure sources.
So at least RAI, that trick is 'closed'.
Thanks, I missed that update.