Flowing Monk redirection, and immediate actions

[Christopher Fannin]

Trying out my new Flowing Monk for the first time tonight, we ran across a question of timing and interaction.

How do immediate actions interact with the actions that trigger them?

Case in question, an enemy 5' stepped up to me and proceeded to full attack. In response, I executed my Redirection attack (an immediate action to reposition/trip the opponent).

Assuming I succeed, what is the correct order of events? It was decided that I had to take the incoming strike that triggered redirection, then the opponent would have to make any followup attacks with whatever penalties the action left him with (in this case, prone and sickened for a -6 to hit), but is that correct?

[mplindustries]

Your Immediate action would go off before the enemy attacks. I assume you tripped him, so he'd be prone and sickened for all of his attacks. And no, he could not change his mind--he started the action, he has to finish it.

[submit2me]

I have a Flowing Monk in my party. What mplindustries said is exactly how we resolve things. Having to attack from prone while sickened (and also netted in my case) is the price you pay for thinking it's a good idea to attack the person who controls the battlefield with their own body.

[Christopher Fannin]

mplindustries wrote:

Your Immediate action would go off before the enemy attacks. I assume you tripped him, so he'd be prone and sickened for all of his attacks. And no, he could not change his mind--he started the action, he has to finish it.

Bringing him into a level 9 party, so it was both prone and sickened, and the poor fool power attacked.

Last question, is there textual justification for the immediate action occurring before the triggering action lands, or is it a house interpretation?

It seems that some portion of the triggering action has to occur before an immediate action can happen. You don't Feather Fall before you start to fall, for instance. You do it after gravity has decided that your person needs to be in contact with a portion of the firmament with a lower potential energy (I think that's correct...anyway...jokes are probably a bad idea this early).

I just want something I can hand to my GM other than popular appeal.

Thanks again.

[mplindustries]

Christopher Fannin wrote:

Last question, is there textual justification for the immediate action occurring before the triggering action lands, or is it a house interpretation?

It seems that some portion of the triggering action has to occur before an immediate action can happen.

He declares the attack, and you use the Immediate Action before he actually makes. Immediate Actions can literally be used any time.

Otherwise, what be the purpose of sickening the enemy, right from level 1?

[Christopher Fannin]

mplindustries wrote:

Christopher Fannin wrote:

Last question, is there textual justification for the immediate action occurring before the triggering action lands, or is it a house interpretation?

It seems that some portion of the triggering action has to occur before an immediate action can happen.

He declares the attack, and you use the Immediate Action before he actually makes. Immediate Actions can literally be used any time.

Otherwise, what be the purpose of sickening the enemy, right from level 1?

So the answer to my question is 'no, I don't have a direct textual justification for my position,' (perhaps beyond the words 'at any time' in the description of immediate actions), 'but we feel it makes sense'?

The answer to your question is, imo, the same as the answer to any combat maneuver. You perform them because they are a form of control (personal or area). Sickening and/or knocking a target prone, and/or moving it to a location where the rest of your party can do it grievous harm, seems like a good use of a class ability. If you take a hit while doing it, well, them's the breaks.

[Mortalis]

Christopher Fannin wrote:

Last question, is there textual justification for the immediate action occurring before the triggering action lands, or is it a house interpretation?

Before anyone mentions it, I'm fully aware that this topic is more than a year old (although I'm new to the forum so I'm unsure what repercussions there are for such an act).

Now, on to the question:

PRD wrote:

At 1st level, as an immediate action, a flowing monk can attempt a reposition or trip combat maneuver against a creature that the flowing monk threatens and that attacks him.

Attacks - singular present verb in this case, indicating that it hasn't occurred and would therefore take place after the ensuing immediate action. Now, if it were "that attacked him", or even "hit him with a melee attack" (in the case of the Two-Weapon Warrior's Deadly Defense) this would be a different conversation.

You dig? :) (I promise I'll never say that again)

[RosaMea]

Hello,

This is a similair question. The Flowing Monk has an ability, Elusive Target, that as an immediate action, allows a flowing monk to spend 2 points from their ki pool to attempt a Reflex save opposed by an attacker's attack roll to halve damage from that attack.

When can I use the immediate action, when the attack is declared or before damage is rolled?

[DM Pendin Fust]

Here's the trick...we get the definition of an immediate action:

PRD wrote:

Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

The important bit is that the immediate action can be performed at any time—even if i's not your turn.

Now we go to the ability description:

PRD wrote:

Elusive Target (Ex): At 5th level, as an immediate action, a flowing monk may spend 2 points from his ki pool to attempt a Reflex save opposed by an attacker's attack roll to halve damage from that attack. At 11th level and above, the flowing monk suffers no damage on a successful save, or half damage on a failed save. If the attacker is flanking the monk, the flanking opponent who is not attacking becomes the target of the attack. Use the same attack roll, and if the attack hits the new target, that creatures takes half damage (or full damage if the attack is completely avoided). Any associated effects from the attack (such as bleed, poison, or spell effects) apply fully even if the attack deals only half damage. This ability replaces purity of body and diamond body.

Immediate action is telling you when you can do the action...immediately and in this ability's case it is before the attack is resolved, allowing the monk to make the reflex save to halve damage.

Same for the above question about Redirection, it occurs immediately and before the attack resolves.

[Kazaan]

You have to remember that, while it's usually adjudicated in a very smooth and stream-lined manner, actions have several sub-parts that, technically, are supposed to interrupt the flow at each step. There are abilities that need to be decided on before an attack roll is made, after an attack roll but before damage, etc. Technically, first a character needs to declare use of some ability; for the sake of simplicity, we'll use the standard Attack action. First, he declares he's going to make an Attack action; that locks him in, he's subsumed his Standard action for the round to use it for the Attack action. Now, pause. Any objections, anyone have a readied action for the event that he makes an Attack action? Any immediate actions to be done, such as an ability to buff or debuff his attack roll? No? Ok, next phase. Roll Attack. Now pause again. Anyone have anything in response to this? Can anyone make an AoO (ie. this was a maneuver w/out the Improved feat, an Unarmed Strike without IUS, etc) or use an immediate action to do something to this attack roll (ie. force him to re-roll it). No? Ok, next phase. Roll Damage. Now pause again. Can anyone respond to this damage roll before it's applied? No? Ok, now apply the damage to the target, and the action is completed. That's 3 separate "interruption points" where people can interfere with the action if they have the abilities to do so. "When an enemy attacks you" is Interruption Point A, between declaration of action (or sub-action in the case of a Full-Attack or other composite action) and rolling attack. Interruption Point B includes "When an opponent hits you" as well as "When an opponent misses you" and occurs between rolling attack and either rolling damage, or adjudicating a miss respectively. "When an opponent would damage you" occurs between rolling damage and applying the damage to the target. In your case, with Redirection, it would occur at Interruption Point A, between declaration of the attack and rolling Attack; he's wound up for the swing, and while he's in the middle of his back-swing, you toss him around and disorient him so hard that his head spins... he's suddenly riding the Teacup Ride at Disney and he's on his back and sick to his stomach at the shock of it all. Then he rolls attack from his prone position with a penalty for both prone and the sickened condition. It's presumably the first action of his Full-Attack so, like anyone, he can choose to downgrade it to a standard Attack and have a Move action available to stand up (provoking AoO typically), or he completes his Full-Attack with the penalties.

[pirate Monaghan]

Back to this again. With Elusive Target at 11th level and up if i pass my reflex save to dodge the damage, does the attack count as missing me for purposes of the snake fang style feat?

I have a ridiculous 20th level goblin monk trip and huge number of attacks build, and if elusive target counts as them missing on my successful save, it gets dirtier.

[Golo]

pirate Monaghan wrote:

Back to this again. With Elusive Target at 11th level and up if i pass my reflex save to dodge the damage, does the attack count as missing me for purposes of the snake fang style feat?

I have a ridiculous 20th level goblin monk trip and huge number of attacks build, and if elusive target counts as them missing on my successful save, it gets dirtier.

No.

you are evading damage and sending it to the person behind you. But if the Attack Missed you it would not be necessary spend the 2 ki points to do all of that.

Golo