Dodge + heavy shield + heavy armor...
Have a decent Dex to start, and keep it high enough to max out whatever Dex bonus you are allowed with your armor.
Do you get Armor Training with CRB-only Fighter?
I wasn't sure if Armor/Weapon Training were introduced in a different book, or not. That's why I asked.
Is the end result what you are after, or does the majority of the AC bonus have to come from the armor, itself? A build based on Dex could achieve a high AC number, although it is lost when flat-footed.
To what extent are you dedicated to armor class? Are you willing to sacrifice offense just to "tank"?
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Ok, Just for ac/tank
Stats- 20pt buy
Str: 16
Dex: 16(+1 at 4)
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 07
Feats-
1st- Combat Expertise, Dodge
2- Shield Focus
3- Toughness
4- Whatever combat maneuver you would like
5- Iron Will
6-
7-
Items-
Belt of Dex +2
+1 fullplate
+1 heavy shield
+1 ring of prot
+1 amulet of natural armor
+1 weapon
thats about 30-31 AC with a fullplate and 33ish AC when attacking with combat expertise.
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I've tried the barbarian low-AC/high-HP route, but in practice there's no amount of HP that can keep up with the damage.
While "charge into the middle of your enemies" is a stereotypical barbarian tactic, a fighter with heavy armor and shield is actually much safer doing it than a barbarian. HP help only in a linear way (and still have to be healed), AC provides a nonlinear benefit.
Don't forget to cover your Will save. If someone can charm / dominate you, the party suddenly loses their tank. Try to pick up not only Iron Will but also the improved version.
In addition to what has been said already:
1) Fighting defensively stacks with Combat Expertise, both the bonus and the penalty. You can squeeze another +1 AC out of it with 3 ranks of Acrobatics - expensive for a fighter with their few skill ranks, but might be worth it.
2) The squishy party members can probably provide magical assistance, like concealment or some temporary HP. You are saving their lives, after all.
3) Don't focus too much on defense. A GM who figures out they can't hit you will be very tempted to make everything simply move past you, attacking the others. It can be better to keep AC somewhat lower, and invest more into offense.
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I wasn't sure if Armor/Weapon Training were introduced in a different book, or not. That's why I asked.
Is the end result what you are after, or does the majority of the AC bonus have to come from the armor, itself? A build based on Dex could achieve a high AC number, although it is lost when flat-footed.
To what extent are you dedicated to armor class? Are you willing to sacrifice offense just to "tank"?
I'm not too worried about damage output; the rest of the party is all squishies and damage-dealers, they mainly need someone to take hits. I've tried the barbarian low-AC/high-HP route, but in practice there's no amount of HP that can keep up with the damage.
You have to be some threat to the bad guys or they will just ignore you to kill the squishies. Without credible damage, or some other way to keep them focused on you, they will just take the AOO and keep moving.
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You have to be some threat to the bad guys or they will just ignore you to kill the squishies. Without credible damage, or some other way to keep them focused on you, they will just take the AOO and keep moving.I wasn't sure if Armor/Weapon Training were introduced in a different book, or not. That's why I asked.
Is the end result what you are after, or does the majority of the AC bonus have to come from the armor, itself? A build based on Dex could achieve a high AC number, although it is lost when flat-footed.
To what extent are you dedicated to armor class? Are you willing to sacrifice offense just to "tank"?
I'm not too worried about damage output; the rest of the party is all squishies and damage-dealers, they mainly need someone to take hits. I've tried the barbarian low-AC/high-HP route, but in practice there's no amount of HP that can keep up with the damage.
Note, this is true if-
1. They are intelligent2. Realize you are not a threat (likely 1-2 rounds in)
3. Know about you/your party already.
Have you considered ways to get a miss chance? Those work well till someone gets true seeing in most cases and it does cut down successful hits nicely. Cloak of displacement for example.
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1) Fighting defensively stacks with Combat Expertise, both the bonus and the penalty. You can squeeze another +1 AC out of it with 3 ranks of Acrobatics - expensive for a fighter with their few skill ranks, but might be worth it.
This.
I'm playing a 13th level Bloodrager with 18 AC when raging ... 18 AC at level 13 is beyond terrible. By fighting defensively and using Combat Expertise I can give myself +7AC. Against a single CR:13 enemy it's not really worth it, but if instead we're fighting a bunch of CR:9 enemies 25 AC is enough to seriously impact the combat.
The other thing people often say about "Make sure you can hurt the enemy or they'll ignore you" is also fairly easy to play around if you can change your AC as a free action. I charge the enemy with 16 AC and anihilate one mook. Then they converge on me, as I'm a dangerous target who's easy to hit. Then I spend a round fighting defensively and none of them can hit me, so they all waste a round. Then I switch back to fighting offensively and murder another mook or 2 ... you get the idea. It doesn't have to save you every round, just the rounds that matter.
Have you considered ways to get a miss chance? Those work well till someone gets true seeing in most cases and it does cut down successful hits nicely. Cloak of displacement for example.
I also use this on my Bloodrager, but sadly it's not from the Core Rulebook. Good advice cor anyone else reading this though.
With only the core rule book a lot of options are off the table so there is not much you can do. About the only other feats besides dodge that will raise your AC are shield focus and greater shield focus. Three feats to get +3 AC is kind of over kill, but fighters have a lot of extra feats, and without the extra books it’s not as bad.
Since combat expertise requires a 13 INT you only have one dump stat. Dumping WIS on a something with a low will save is dangerous. Dumping or having a low DEX also is not going to work when you are trying to raise you AC. Also taking both combat expertise and power attack is going mean you don’t hit anything at all, especially if you are fighting defensively. Make sure to have at least 3 points in acrobatics to get the extra AC from fighting defensively.
Focus on DEX and use a weapon finesse to boost your accuracy, but still have some STR for damage and being able to wear heavy armor. Mitral full plate is expensive but will maximize your AC. Between that and Armor training you will be able to take advantage of your higher DEX bonus.
Mobility might be worth considering. The bonus is situational but you will have a decent movement and with the massive penalties to hit from combining fighting defensively and combat expertise are unlikely to hit with anything but the first attack.
By about 7th level you should be able to get a 37 AC under optimal conditions. Your chance to hit will be about +8/+3 doing 1d6+6 points of damage. If you could get DEX to damage that would help your damage but that is not an option without access to more than the core rule book.
Another option you could look at is debuffing enemies. Demoralizing an enemy gives them the Shaken condition, which imposes a -2 to hit, which is akin to +2 AC vs that enemy. Dazzling Display lets you debuff every enemy within 30 feet and is in the CRB. One disadvantage with this is that it would add yet another stat you need (CHA), although Intimidating Prowess is also in the CRB, so you could still potentially go with it if you're STR-based.
Other ways to "debuff" enemies include combat maneuvers like Disarm or Trip. If you disarm a humanoid enemy they may be wholly useless and your AC becomes irrelevant. A Prone enemy has a -4 on melee attack rolls . If yoh combine a reach weapon with tripping people you can often interrupt their charges and remove their ability to attack at all. There's no AC better than "not being attacked".
Also taking both combat expertise and power attack is going mean you don’t hit anything at all, especially if you are fighting defensively.
Taking both Combat Expertise and Power Attack isn't an issue; using both Combat Expertise and Power Attack at the same time is. Neither of them is an "always active" effect, so you can choose whether AC or damage is more important.
One other core option, especially with a fighter's bonus feats or ranger's combat style, is to go the Improved Shield Bash/Two-Weapon Fighting route. At higher levels (with a +x defending/+y bashing shield enhanced as both a weapon and as armor), the AC can get pretty ridiculous. Note that most feats in the Two-Weapon Fighting chain only require 15 Dex and only a few require 17 Dex; IMO, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (requires 19 Dex) is probably not worthwhile (it's mechanically less significant than Two-Weapon Rend for DPR).
Taking both Combat Expertise and Power Attack isn't an issue; using both Combat Expertise and Power Attack at the same time is. Neither of them is an "always active" effect, so you can choose whether AC or damage is more important.
It also depends on whether it's just the attack action or a full-attack. You gain full AC benefits of Combat Expertise and fighting defensively by just attacking once. And you can afford both AB penalties more easily when doing a full BAB attack. It's basically an improved version of total defense, where you actually get to attack (and gain a higher AC boost, at least on high levels).
Power Attack is also more affordable on the attack action, but there you gain its benefit only once (ignoring AOO etc.).
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I was expecting someone to point out Tower Shield...
Yeah, you trade off a -2 to hit but you pick up an extra +2 shield bonus...
So, Full plate armor (should be do-able by 2nd level, maybe even while still 1st) plus 1 for a Dex of 12, plus 4 for a tower shield is AC 24.
Heck, at first level you can pick up Scale armor and the tower shield with your starting money and walk into the game with an AC of 20 or more.
Then, as you can afford it and level up, start adding in magic bonuses on the armor and shield and things like rings or amulets or feats (Shield Focus?) to boost AC and by 6th level you should be able to put your AC into the low to mid 30s.
I actually went with a Halfling myself (though a Gnome would also work) to get the +1 for being small, so I had an AC in the upper 20s (27? 29?) by 3rd level.
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LOL Mark - I didn't mean it snarky or anything like that - your build is a better all around fighter. and would have a better Touch AC (and better INIT, and better to hits with missile weapons and...) yeah, like I said - I personally would rather run the DEX fighter myself.
But for AC? yeah, Plate is just slightly better. (IMHO)
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(Went back and edited this Post to bring it more in line with the original)
let's take Mark Hoover's fighter build above and see about re-tooling him slightly to switch out his base armor
Half-Orc Fighter 7
Str 18
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 7
Level 1 Power Attack
Level 1 (Bonus) Shield Focus
Level 2 Exotic Weapon(Bastard Sword)
Level 3 Dodge
Level 4 Combat Expertise
Level 5 Weapon Specialization
Level 6 Iron Will
Level 7 Toughness
(Does the WBL assign specific items? I'm not normally used to using it in building PCs - here's what Mark listed...)
WBL means chain shirt +2, heavy steel shield +1, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of dex +2, Finesse weapon +1 of shock, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1
My suggestions for equipment:
(Full Plate +2, Tower shield +2, belt of STR +2, Bastard Sword +1, cloak of resistance +2) and I may be short in equipment here? so maybe a +1 Ring?
SO - Armor +11, Shield +6, Dex +1, Dodge +1, Shield Focus +1, Combat Expertise +2?
The Base Build is +12 to hit (I think) and AC of 32? wow... guess I loose out... I didn't realize fighting defensively would push up the AC that much...
Sorry Mark, clearly I was wrong...
Here's from Marks build notes... Take 3 of your 21 skill ranks in Acrobatics; maybe 6 if you think you can spare it. Even at 3 ranks, when fighting defensively, you've got +8 to hit and AC 33. ....
(side note - I don't think chakram is a Core weapon.)
Since the character is limited to the core rule book that means no archetype. That means the character will have Armor Training. At 7th level he gets Armor Training 2 which means the maximum DEX bonus on any armor is increased by 2. So at 7th level with mithral full plate his maximum DEX bonus is +5. A suit of +1 mithral full plate is going to blow half his WBL, but will allow him to utilize a DEX of 20 if he goes for a DEX based character. If he does that weapon finesse is going to be required. A +1 mithral heavy shield would give him an additional +4 ac (with shield focus). That works out to be AC 30 without combat expertise or fighting defensively. When using those it brings his AC to 35. A +1 Amulet of Natural armor and a +1 ring of protection bring that up to 37 (or 32 without combat expertise and fighting defensively). He still has enough in his budget for a +1 rapier and a +1 cloak of resistance and 2,660 for any other gear.
Without the option to trade out armor training a low DEX is kind of a waste for a fighter. Using a tower shield with weapon finesse does not work because you take the ACP of the shield on your chance to hit. This is why I went with a mithral heavy shield.
My suggestion would be
STR 12, DEX 20(after racial and class bonus), CON 14, INT 13, WIS 12, CHA 8
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Iron Will, Mobility, Shield Focus, Weapon Finesse, Weapon focus (Rapier), Weapon specialization (Rapier).
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I like the above build from Mysterious Stranger, however I'd drop mobility, and possibly even weapon focus/weapon specialization in favor of picking up a couple combat maneuvers. +2-3 damage a hit isn't going to make you more threatening really, but if you can disarm/dirty trick/trip etc enemies, you are a threat even without a lot of damage. Upping strength to 14 and picking up power attack also would be a good pick up just for those times where you do need more damage.
a 25pt buy build would be-
Str: 14
Dex: 17 (20 after racial+ASI at 4)
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 13
Cha: 07
at a 20pt buy, drop dex to a 16 pre racials.
feats-
1- Combat expertise, Dodge, Improved Disarm/trip/etc
2- Weapon finesse
3- Agile maneuvers
4- Shield Focus
5- Iron will or Improved X
6- Greater Dismar/trip/dirty trick etc.
7- Power attack.
This lets you decide whether to make use of combat expertise (against tough enemies or a lot of enemies) vs dealing damage when needed. Or, if you are fighting something with High HP, high attack bonus, low AC, both.
At low level you don’t need to do a lot of damage, but you do need to hit. Also at low level you are not going to be able to afford equipment made from mithral. The character is also going to be taking a big penalty to hit for fighting defensively from the start. If he does not have a way to boost that up he is going to be useless. That is why he needs to take weapon finesse first. Personally I would also take weapon focus at first level also.
As a fighter he can also trade out his some of his bonus feats. If you are going to go with a combat maneuver take weapon finesse as your normal 1st level feat and use your fighter bonus for weapon focus. Take shield focus for your second level bonus feat, and at 3rd level take combat expertise. At 4th level trade out weapon focus for agile maneuvers and use your 4th level bonus feat for the combat maneuver. This allows you to actually hit the target with both a normal strike and your maneuver. At low level the AC bonus form combat expertise is the same as you get from shield focus, but shield focus does not have a penalty to hit. Why take an extra penalty when you don’t gain anything from it.
Also a half orc fighter only has 2 feats at first level.
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The idea was for the fighter to tank hits for his teammates. Harder to do that at 30ft away.
No build will solve everything by itself. The biggest issue with the DeX build is it meshes poorly with most buff spells. Especially core only spells.
I'll get a couple different builds up one DeX one strength once I get a bit more time. And I forgot it was a half orc. Thanks for the reminder.
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Half-orc Fighter (str build) High AC, but with reach and AoOs.
Ability scores (20pt)
Str: 18 (+2 racial, +1 ASI)
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 07
Feats-
1- Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
2- Dodge
3- Improved Trip
4- Quick Draw
5- Iron Will
6- Power attack (or lunge)
7- Greater Trip (or Improved Disarm or Improved X) or shield focus
Assuming a +1 plate armor, ring of deflection +1, and a natural armor amulet +1, You are looking at
10+10+1+1+1+3= 26 AC before Combat expertise(28 with CE, 29 at level 8). Including a +1 weapon, and a +1 cloak you still have ~14000 gold to spend as you wish. So, I'd pick up a belt of Giants strength (+2), leaving 10k gold to spend. (possibly upgrading your Armor to a +2)
A respectable AC, you also will have the option of swapping to a sword+shield as a free action if you need to thanks to quickdraw.
In other words, your general AC with combat expertise is a 28, and you can potentially boost that to 32 when you need to.
you have- 4 AoOs per round, with a reach of 10ft (or more, if your arcane casters gives you enlarge Person)
Dealing an average of 1d10+9 damage without power attack. At a hit chance of +14(+12 w/combat expertise and no buffs) Better yet, you can choose to trip enemies with your AoOs, allowing you control the field in tighter spaces and tank without even risking getting nat 20'd.
If you swap to a 1handed weapon and shield, your AC jumps by 3 (4 w/ shield focus) and your damage drops to about 1d8+5 (6 if you spent 2k on a +1 1handed weapon)
Buffs like enlarge person, etc function more smoothly.
The OP said he was not worried about damage. From what he said the idea was more of him protecting the casters.
It could work but you'd have to take 1 level of Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer or 1 level of Bard. The problem with both of these is that they'd suffer from Arcane Spell Failure for any armour that the OP is likely to consider. Not necessarily terrible, but something to take into account. Are there any good low level spells on tbose lists without Somatic components?
One problem with tanking in heavy armour is being in the right place. If you only move at 20', you may not be able to get in the way of the enemy. So I'd go for a medium armour build with as much Dex as you can afford, with a 1-level dip in Barbarian. Core fighter isn't very good, so the loss of 1 feat in exchange for skills, +10' movement (=40' in breastplate by 4th level) and rage seems like a good deal. You won't want the rage when tanking, but it's good for damage when you need it.
Also, any dex tank build needs Combat Reflexes. Never mind the +2 damage from WpnSpec; this is extra attacks at full BAB.
But at levels 1-6, he's not (though for the OP that might not matter). And by level 7 lots of enemies are flying or otherwise faster, so even 30' might be looking inadequate. Ideally for a protect-the-caster role you need things like Combat Patrol and a whip/trip build, but that can't be done in core, so this may be the best you get.
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core fighter honestly is better than the core barbarian IMO. A lot of the barbs tricks came in later books. Not to mention the core fighter is -much- better at actually surviving fights. (save perhaps, when will saves are thrown out, but most of the really bad will saves are later books, or 1 round+ to cast)
At level 7 you should-
Have access to flight via your wizard
have access to haste via your wizard - Both of these gives the 7th level fighter a 60ft speed.
and/or have ranged damage dealers to deal with flying enemies, allowing you to either 1. Swap to ranged (which is minimal net loss in my fighter 7 build) if its a ranged flier. Or 2. Ready action to attack and get an AoO in the build I posted. One way or another the flier has to actually pose a threat to your allies.
He also wouldn't be in full plate levels 1-5 probably, breastplate is a perfectly acceptable substitute during those levels (and a much cheaper one at that)
Aside from this, you'll have more AC with the fighter thanks to armor training+full plate. And at level 9 you'll be able to branch off into a ranged weapon for weapon training. Or what have you.
Note, I'm not saying its an overly bad idea. It may prove useful in some situations. But It can be postponed until a later level if at all.
Other Core items to consider are:
- Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, 5000 gp, +1 insight AC
- Boots of speed, 12000 gp for +1 dodge from haste
I prefer to use my coin to buy those, as the belts, rings and amulets are more common to find in most adventures.
Of course, talk with your party, if they are open to cast on you things like shield of faith, barkskin, haste or magic vestment, you can achieve a much better AC for much less coin. Of course blur and displacement come always handy too.