Investigator - ¿How to build it for damage?


Advice


I really like investigator and it's my favourite class concept.

I like high tactical roles with a lot of decision making options during a combat and strong damage.

What archetype should I take for improving my damage? and what class?

- Assassin: I love the concept and the level 12 "Assassination".

- Archer: Crossbow terror and quick shot to be able to shot the when I get a succes.

- Beast master: I can comand animal if I don't hit the enemy.

- Poisoner: So I can apply poisons if I know I can shoot.

Maybe I have good multiclass options that are interesting.


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The class concept of Investigator isn't 'deal a ton of damage to the enemy', so my first impression of your question is that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and you are going to end up disappointed.

That being said, there are several options available for increasing the amount of damage that your character can do. You have already mentioned a few. So I think you already have the general idea.

You should just pick one that you find interesting and not get into a damage output contest with your party's fighter/ranger/barbarian.


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All of those are such different flavors that'd be hard to suggest a preference. Go with the personality you'll enjoy playing since PF2 leaves a good cushion where one doesn't need to maximize to thrive (if using sound party tactics that is).

Mechanically though, poisons remain weak (speaking as a fan of the concept) as are Animal Companions unless you fully invest (both in the animal and the caretaking/healing of said animal).
Assassins won't fit in most games, since campaigns tend to be heroic, and arguably an Assassin doesn't add much unless working solo/scouting often.

That leaves Archer, and I do think Investigator works well with ranged attacks because you can swap enemies if your pre-roll vs. one is poor and you'll want Dex anyway to go with the light armor. And being out of immediate melee is good for 8 h.p. classes.
But not crossbows. The reloading action isn't worth the piddly extra damage, nor worth the feat to reload while moving.

Another option is MCD Wizard to cast a Cantrip (Electric Arc) if your Devise a Strategem roll is low. Since that'd use Int, you have a good save DC, though this option would need further investment to keep those save DCs up at higher levels (where those feats would compete with excellent Investigator feats).


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That's sort of the gist of it. Investigators focus on making one important attack each round with a bonus, so the main routes of improving your DPR are either finding cool third action supplements or finding activities that augment singular strikes.

Eldritch Archer is kind of neat, DaS pairs nicely with Enchanted Arrow or even Eldritch Shot if you're targeting the subject of your case and it gives you spellcasting so you can electric arc or something if your Devise roll goes badly. Int/Cha is an awkward set of primary stats but it's still a neat build.

... Kind of janky design that a class built around making one big attack per round is also hardcoded to use weapons that specifically get bonuses for attacking a bunch, but w/e.


Power Attack also work, or One Inch Punch, but that is a bit later level.


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breithauptclan wrote:

The class concept of Investigator isn't 'deal a ton of damage to the enemy', so my first impression of your question is that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and you are going to end up disappointed.

That being said, there are several options available for increasing the amount of damage that your character can do. You have already mentioned a few. So I think you already have the general idea.

You should just pick one that you find interesting and not get into a damage output contest with your party's fighter/ranger/barbarian.

Came here to say this.

Investigator will always be a second tier damage dealer, it's not supposed to be their sole focus like fighter or barbarian.

Unlike PF1, classes don't get to do their thing, and also be good at damage.

They can be good at their thing, and deal some damage that keeps them relevant, but behind classes which have the main purpose of dealing damage.

That out of the way, finding the best use of your characters actions to allow you to do your thing, and deal damage is the real question.

Personally, I'm still working this sort of thing out in general for most classes and don't have great suggestions.

Animal companion would be a go to if they scaled better than they do, you have to pour everything into them and eventually they still lag behind.


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Here's a chart I made showing Investigator damage This is with no elemental damage runes.

Using quicksilver mutagen to boost attack and attack another target with a long bow if the first strike will miss.

They're really solid I think. At level 20 with 3 actions against a normal enemy or 2 if it's their case they'll do 60 expected damage. A greatsword fighter with 2 actions and no special feats will do 65 expected damage.


PochiPooom wrote:

I really like investigator and it's my favourite class concept.

I like high tactical roles with a lot of decision making options during a combat and strong damage.
...

As others have said, the Investigator isn't a massive damage machine, but it can be very flexible. My current favorite concept is taking Wizard or Witch MC for Int-based spells and then wielding a thrown weapon in one hand and a whip in the other. In general this gives you five basic options during a round.

1.) Make a lethal melee strike with your thrown weapon.
2.) Make a non-lethal melee strike with your whip.
3.) Make a lethal ranged strike with your thrown weapon.
4.) Make a disarm attack or trip attack with your whip.
5.) Cast a spell.

Devise a Stratagem lets you use Int for the three strikes, the Athletic Strategist class feat lets you use Int for the athletics checks, and the spells already use Int. You'll likely want Doubling Rings and Titan Wrestler.

-----

If Devise a Stratagem hands you a bad roll, some of these options still work. You can always just cast a spell. You don't need Str or Dex for that. You could also switch your target, but that will require either a decent Dex or Str score.

If Dex is your fallback score then you'll want to use a finesse, thrown weapon. The starknife with its 20' range is a good choice here. The whip is already finesse so you're good with melee strikes and athletic attacks with it.

If Str is your fallback score then you'll deal more damage with your strikes, but throwing your weapon with low Dex isn't going to be a very good option. The Light Hammer is a good choice in this build for its 1d6 damage and 20' range. You'll probably want to upgrade to medium armor for this build.


Another concept that I've been playing with is going full out with archetypes - just using the bare-bones Investigator chassis.

For example, I could use all of my class feats for Wizard MC (or Witch) and Eldritch Archer. I'd want to max Int and keep Dex as high as possible. At the moment I've been thinking about something like this.

2. Wizard Dedication
4. Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6. Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion)
8. Eldritch Archer Dedication
10. Magic Arrow
12. Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14, Arcane Breadth
16, Seeker Arrow
18. Master Wizard Spellcasting
20. Phase Arrow

This gets me to 5 cantrips and the full number of MC spell slots along with a number of fun Eldritch Archer goodies.

In combat, I'd usually be using Int for archery and spells, with Dex as a backup for archery. Between spells and the Investigator skills, I should still be useful outside of combat.

There might well be a few Investigator class feats that I'd want to mix in with the archetype feats.


Gisher wrote:

Another concept that I've been playing with is going full out with archetypes - just using the bare-bones Investigator chassis.

For example, I could use all of my class feats for Wizard MC (or Witch) and Eldritch Archer. I'd want to max Int and keep Dex as high as possible. At the moment I've been thinking about something like this.

2. Wizard Dedication
4. Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6. Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion)
8. Eldritch Archer Dedication
10. Magic Arrow
12. Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14, Arcane Breadth
16, Seeker Arrow
18. Master Wizard Spellcasting
20. Phase Arrow

This gets me to 5 cantrips and the full number of MC spell slots along with a number of fun Eldritch Archer goodies. Between spells and the Investigator skills, I should still be useful outside of combat.

I think witch dedication is strictly better, you get a free familiar.


Mechanically, you're probably right. The Witch MC only grants one cantrip, but the Familiar could make that up with Cantrip Connection. Still, I slightly prefer the Wizard class for role-playing purposes.

BTW, I love your charts and online tools. They are nicely done and really useful.


Gisher wrote:


BTW, I love your charts and online tools. They are nicely done and really useful.

Thank you!

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.


Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.

Except that is Wis.

Iinvestigator, Wizard, and Witch are Int

Dataphiles

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mellored wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.

Except that is Wis.

Iinvestigator, Wizard, and Witch are Int

Doesn’t really matter if you never plan to cast an offensive spell without Eldritch Shot, seeing as Eldritch Shot will use your weapon attack.

14 wis is easy enough to do

Ancient Elf 10/16/10/18/14/10 or Halfling 8/16/12/18/14/10

1: Any + Cleric Dedication (If ancient elf)
2: Solid Lead or Red Herring (you really want to be pursuing a lead constantly with this build for free action stratagem), Cleric Dedication if you didn’t go ancient elf
4: Domain Initiate
6: Basic casting
8: Eldritch archer dedication
10: Suspect of Opportunity

Grab Telekinetic projectile or produce flame from somewhere,
prob an ancestry feat, and you’re good to go.


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Instead of going for most damage, a good idea would probably to go for 'how I can do the most with rolls I know the outcome of'

pick yourself a rapier
pick yourself another finesse weapon with either agile and a few maneuvers or lot of maneuver options (like kukri or whip - trip is either way a good maneuver for your secondary weapon) or a throwable secondary weapon (like the starknife)
get athletic strategist
maybe consider the dual-weapon warrior archetype

if you roll a nat 20 you can profit from deadly or the disarm feat
if you still roll high you can use your offhand weapon for a solid maneuver chance (or just to hit them on reach if you take the whip, which gives certain tactical advantages)
if you roll not so high use double slice and fish for a good second hit


Gisher wrote:

Another concept that I've been playing with is going full out with archetypes - just using the bare-bones Investigator chassis.

For example, I could use all of my class feats for Wizard MC (or Witch) and Eldritch Archer. I'd want to max Int and keep Dex as high as possible. At the moment I've been thinking about something like this.

2. Wizard Dedication
4. Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6. Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion)
8. Eldritch Archer Dedication
10. Magic Arrow
12. Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14, Arcane Breadth
16, Seeker Arrow
18. Master Wizard Spellcasting
20. Phase Arrow

This gets me to 5 cantrips and the full number of MC spell slots along with a number of fun Eldritch Archer goodies.

In combat, I'd usually be using Int for archery and spells, with Dex as a backup for archery. Between spells and the Investigator skills, I should still be useful outside of combat.

There might well be a few Investigator class feats that I'd want to mix in with the archetype feats.

I did a simplistic analysis of average damage for this build.

- Using two actions to apply (Devise a Strategy + Strategic Strike) to a strike from a longbow compares well to the damage from two strikes with a longbow.

- Using three actions to use (Eldritch Shot with Telekinetic Projectile) to a longbow strike tracks well with the damage from three strikes with a longbow.

- In the event that you can use Devise a Strategy as a free action, you can apply both Strategic Strike and Eldritch Shot to a single strike in three actions. The damage here fits that from four longbow strikes.

So it seems that this build might keep up with damage from multiple strikes, and possibly exceed it in rare instances.

Graphs of the data are available here. (I threw the casting progression in for fun.)

I really did keep this simple. I used average values, assumed that all strikes hit, and didn't include MAP or criticals. I just wanted to make a rough comparison.


Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.

You can get Focus Spells through Wizard MC, too. So I don't think this makes Cleric MC strictly better.


Duelist can be a good pick for a flexible melee throwing build.

Swashbuckler is also good with Investigator.

As you said, Archer is good also (and I think Crossbow works because if you miss your devise, you dont need to waste your bolt).


Wow!

I just wake up and see all of this responses with great ideas. I really like some of this options.

When I say that I like strong damage means that I want to be able to hit hard as investigator, I am not expecting to do as much damage as fighter or barbarian.

Thank's a lot!


what is a investigator, a rogueish character with a focus on intelligence and information.

known weaknesses combining divise stratagem into recall knowledge checks, if the enemy is part of your investigation its essentially 2 actions as a free action.

eldritch archer offers a large 3 action alpha strike or multiple types of targeted weakness or utility arrows, even without spells.

so i dont know if its best damage, but given that devise stratagem precise dice is once per round, putting all those eggs in a huge basked of boom seems like a good idea. plus with all the utility arrows and such, you can play with devise stratagem rolls in a very robert downy jr sherlock holmes kind of way.

but doing 10d6+6+4d6+5d6+2d6+proficiency in damage in a single strike seems pretty good at 20. with a shortbow.

Dataphiles

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.
You can get Focus Spells through Wizard MC, too. So I don't think this makes Cleric MC strictly better.

None of the Wizard focus spells are any good with Eldritch Archer, which was my point. The cleric ones are great.

Dark Archive

Gisher wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Another concept that I've been playing with is going full out with archetypes - just using the bare-bones Investigator chassis.

For example, I could use all of my class feats for Wizard MC (or Witch) and Eldritch Archer. I'd want to max Int and keep Dex as high as possible. At the moment I've been thinking about something like this.

2. Wizard Dedication
4. Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6. Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion)
8. Eldritch Archer Dedication
10. Magic Arrow
12. Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14, Arcane Breadth
16, Seeker Arrow
18. Master Wizard Spellcasting
20. Phase Arrow

This gets me to 5 cantrips and the full number of MC spell slots along with a number of fun Eldritch Archer goodies.

In combat, I'd usually be using Int for archery and spells, with Dex as a backup for archery. Between spells and the Investigator skills, I should still be useful outside of combat.

There might well be a few Investigator class feats that I'd want to mix in with the archetype feats.

I did a simplistic analysis of average damage for this build.

- Using two actions to apply (Devise a Strategy + Strategic Strike) to a strike from a longbow compares well to the damage from two strikes with a longbow.

- Using three actions to use (Eldritch Shot with Telekinetic Projectile) to a longbow strike tracks well with the damage from three strikes with a longbow.

- In the event that you can use Devise a Strategy as a free action, you can apply both Strategic Strike and Eldritch Shot to a single strike in three actions. The damage here fits that from four longbow strikes.

So it seems that this build might keep up with damage from multiple strikes, and possibly exceed it in rare instances.

Graphs of the data are available here. (I threw the casting progression in for fun.)

I really did keep this simple. I used average values, assumed that all strikes hit, and...

I ran a simulated combat last night with a few of my group and I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not using Enchanting Arrow.

When not using Eldritch Shot on boss types, the action loop of Devise Strategum into Enchanting Arrow made up the bulk of my actions.

4d8 (Major Striking Longbow) + 5d6 (Strategic Strike) +4d6 (Enchanted Arrow) + 1d6 (Elemental damage rune) for an average of about 53 damage.

Compared to the ES boss scenario of 4d8 (Major Striking Longbow) + 10d6 (Telekinetic Projectile) + 7 (Max Int bonus) + 5d6 (Strategic Strike) + 1d6 (Elemental damage rune) for 81 damage, 53 is a massive step down, but its still pretty reasonable for standard mobs.


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Exocist wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.
You can get Focus Spells through Wizard MC, too. So I don't think this makes Cleric MC strictly better.
None of the Wizard focus spells are any good with Eldritch Archer, which was my point. The cleric ones are great.

I think Call of the Grave is ok. You'll laugh really hard if you score a crit.


Exocist wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.
You can get Focus Spells through Wizard MC, too. So I don't think this makes Cleric MC strictly better.
None of the Wizard focus spells are any good with Eldritch Archer, which was my point. The cleric ones are great.

That makes sense. Arcane has a lot of good spells for Eldritch Archer, so it probably doesn't need more. But the auto-heightening for Focus Spells is really nice when you are getting spells through multiclassing.

I don't play god-worshipping characters, but this makes sense for those that do.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Another concept that I've been playing with is going full out with archetypes - just using the bare-bones Investigator chassis.

For example, I could use all of my class feats for Wizard MC (or Witch) and Eldritch Archer. I'd want to max Int and keep Dex as high as possible. At the moment I've been thinking about something like this.

2. Wizard Dedication
4. Basic Wizard Spellcasting
6. Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion)
8. Eldritch Archer Dedication
10. Magic Arrow
12. Expert Wizard Spellcasting
14, Arcane Breadth
16, Seeker Arrow
18. Master Wizard Spellcasting
20. Phase Arrow

This gets me to 5 cantrips and the full number of MC spell slots along with a number of fun Eldritch Archer goodies.

In combat, I'd usually be using Int for archery and spells, with Dex as a backup for archery. Between spells and the Investigator skills, I should still be useful outside of combat.

There might well be a few Investigator class feats that I'd want to mix in with the archetype feats.

I did a simplistic analysis of average damage for this build.

- Using two actions to apply (Devise a Strategy + Strategic Strike) to a strike from a longbow compares well to the damage from two strikes with a longbow.

- Using three actions to use (Eldritch Shot with Telekinetic Projectile) to a longbow strike tracks well with the damage from three strikes with a longbow.

- In the event that you can use Devise a Strategy as a free action, you can apply both Strategic Strike and Eldritch Shot to a single strike in three actions. The damage here fits that from four longbow strikes.

So it seems that this build might keep up with damage from multiple strikes, and possibly exceed it in rare instances.

Graphs of the data are available here. (I threw the casting progression in for fun.)

I really did keep this simple. I used average values, assumed that

...

Huh. I didn't think Enchanting Arrow would normally work with Devise a Stratagem because that would take up too many actions. I didn't realize that Enchanting Arrow included the Strike. Nice!

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Exocist wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I think Cleric MC is strictly better as you get a usable focus power from taking Domain initiate (in return for losing Shocking Grasp). My current choice is Kerkamoth for the Decay domain and (eventually) disintegrate though Fire or Cold might be better.
You can get Focus Spells through Wizard MC, too. So I don't think this makes Cleric MC strictly better.
None of the Wizard focus spells are any good with Eldritch Archer, which was my point. The cleric ones are great.

That makes sense. Arcane has a lot of good spells for Eldritch Archer, so it probably doesn't need more. But the auto-heightening for Focus Spells is really nice when you are getting spells through multiclassing.

I don't play god-worshipping characters, but this makes sense for those that do.

Because of focuses scaling off character level rather than highest level of slot, they'll actually do more damage than arcane's slotted spell attacks through multiclass.

E.g. at 6th level, a 2nd level shocking grasp (which you have one of per day) will do 3d12, whereas a Withering Grasp (which you have one of per encounter) will do 3d12 and 1d4+2 persistent.

Also you get to worship the best deities like Azathoth and Groetus.

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