Power level of Kineticist overflow feats in relation to its action cost

[roquepo]

I agree with the general sentiment of the class being really low in overall damage and power. I think the biggest contributor to this is the relation between action cost and the power level of said actions. In actuality, all overflow abilities take 1 extra action due to the need of gathering the element. I think the gathering mechanic in isolation is perfect, but its execution and implementation has been a bit sloppy and the overall impact it has on the class has been underestimated (similarly to reload in the Gunslinger playtest). I have a personal idea on how strong I think this feats should be in relation to their cost:

3+1 actions: Should be on par with on level spell slots. They are not limited but as if they were since you need 4 actions to set them up. They should also be slighly stronger than that if their effect is not completely frontloaded on the turn they are used. Buffs like Earth Mantle should never take 3 actions to cast, the worst the action economy is, the worse an effect that does nothing with those actions gets, since the pay-off comes later.

2+1 actions: Comparable to 2 action focus spells, maybe slighy stronger. Out of combat both of these get as many uses as they want and in combat, unless it drags out, you will get 1 to 2 uses for both, but with worse action economy for the Kineticist overflow abilities in exchange of being more reliable than focus spells.

1+1 action: On par with cantrips. Maybe a bit weaker since you can split the action cost.

1+free action/reaction: Comparable to low level spell effects in relation to the level you get the feat.

I will try to organise a playtest session and see for myself if my thoughts on this remain the same.

[Dubious Scholar]

I think I mostly agree, though I would note that the high end for focus spells is actually a hair behind actual spell slots (Dragon Breath is the gold standard there I think, with 5d6+2d6 heighten it's a single d6 behind Fireball). But for the action cost of a 3-action overload it's a tough call. I might peg that as comparable to strong focus spells while 2+1 is on the mid-range ones. Level and scaling matter too.

I also think the action economy hurts more for one-off blast impulses compared to if you're doing something with longer term effects, or that's sustainable (not that this saves the atrocious damage of some things like Ignite the Sun - frankly that should also have a fort save against blind involved!)

[manbearscientist]

I feel like too many impulses were upgraded to 3-actions simply because at level 19 the class can Gather Element as a free action, and at level 20 there is a feat to reduce 3-action impulses to 2-actions.

This can leave the class very clunky to play for the majority of the game. 3-action spells and abilities are relatively rare for reason, reserved for either flurries of martial actions (often including movement) or spells that affect the battlefield.

I think the class would feel much better without balancing around those late-game action economy bonuses.

I also think that it is a bit of a bummer that you can't Elemental Blast after using an Overflow impulse. It makes more sense to me that you'd need to 'rev the engine' to cast a big overflow spell, rather than killing the engine when you cast one and needing to restart it.

In that sense, Gather Power would empower you till the end of your next turn, but you wouldn't need to reuse it again in combat unless you wanted to rev the engine again or switch elements. You could still use elemental blast of that element, or other impulses.

[Gayel Nord]

roquepo wrote:

I agree with the general sentiment of the class being really low in overall damage and power. I think the biggest contributor to this is the relation between action cost and the power level of said actions. In actuality, all overflow abilities take 1 extra action due to the need of gathering the element. I think the gathering mechanic in isolation is perfect, but its execution and implementation has been a bit sloppy and the overall impact it has on the class has been underestimated (similarly to reload in the Gunslinger playtest). I have a personal idea on how strong I think this feats should be in relation to their cost:

3+1 actions: Should be on par with on level spell slots. They are not limited but as if they were since you need 4 actions to set them up. They should also be slighly stronger than that if their effect is not completely frontloaded on the turn they are used. Buffs like Earth Mantle should never take 3 actions to cast, the worst the action economy is, the worse an effect that does nothing with those actions gets, since the pay-off comes later.

2+1 actions: Comparable to 2 action focus spells, maybe slighy stronger. Out of combat both of these get as many uses as they want and in combat, unless it drags out, you will get 1 to 2 uses for both, but with worse action economy for the Kineticist overflow abilities in exchange of being more reliable than focus spells.

1+1 action: On par with cantrips. Maybe a bit weaker since you can split the action cost.

1+free action/reaction: Comparable to low level spell effects in relation to the level you get the feat.

I will try to organise a playtest session and see for myself if my thoughts on this remain the same.

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

[Guntermench]

Doesn't matter if you can do it all day if it basically tickles.

[Kekkres]

Guntermench wrote:

Doesn't matter if you can do it all day if it basically tickles.

more or less this, actions are a resource too, and if you are spending too many actions for too little effect it doesnt matter if you dont have to spend anything else

[Zzeae]

Gayel Nord wrote:

roquepo wrote:

I agree with the general sentiment of the class being really low in overall damage and power. I think the biggest contributor to this is the relation between action cost and the power level of said actions. In actuality, all overflow abilities take 1 extra action due to the need of gathering the element. I think the gathering mechanic in isolation is perfect, but its execution and implementation has been a bit sloppy and the overall impact it has on the class has been underestimated (similarly to reload in the Gunslinger playtest). I have a personal idea on how strong I think this feats should be in relation to their cost:

3+1 actions: Should be on par with on level spell slots. They are not limited but as if they were since you need 4 actions to set them up. They should also be slighly stronger than that if their effect is not completely frontloaded on the turn they are used. Buffs like Earth Mantle should never take 3 actions to cast, the worst the action economy is, the worse an effect that does nothing with those actions gets, since the pay-off comes later.

2+1 actions: Comparable to 2 action focus spells, maybe slighy stronger. Out of combat both of these get as many uses as they want and in combat, unless it drags out, you will get 1 to 2 uses for both, but with worse action economy for the Kineticist overflow abilities in exchange of being more reliable than focus spells.

1+1 action: On par with cantrips. Maybe a bit weaker since you can split the action cost.

1+free action/reaction: Comparable to low level spell effects in relation to the level you get the feat.

I will try to organise a playtest session and see for myself if my thoughts on this remain the same.

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

That doesn't automatically make it good. A spellcaster would suck if they just used cantrips, even if they can be used infinitely per day. In my experience spellcasters only ever run out of their highest level slots, and never their second highest or worse slots. Additionally, most combats don't last so long that spellcasters need to burn considerable non-focus resources.

[Themetricsystem]

I'm worried about the Action Cost like you and feel it is too restrictive for sure, but I am actually MORE worried about restrictive all of these things are in terms of always requiring free hands as well as making ALL of the various Blasts and other elemental forms specific Actions that are unable to be combined with anything else which prompts for a Strike of one kind or another... in other words, they're HIGHLY encouraged to never use any Weapons beyond the one you can create/summon yourself and they are pretty much totally incompatible with the VAST majority of all the interesting Martial Archetypes.

They're just so incredibly insular and have basically no good reason to grab Archetypes as they can't use the vast majority of interesting things you can get from them with the possible exception of like... grabbing an Animal Companion or some Spellcasting Archetype to inject a bit more (weak) versatility to help them overcome non-combat challenges.

[PossibleCabbage]

How "inconvenient/workable is the action economy" is something you can really only figure out by playtesting.

Like for a simple example, the Earth Shield impulse potentially has a lot of hardness (33 at max, 13 more than a sturdy shield) and it costs nothing more than an action to repair. But if you're spending an action to gather and an action to raise your shield every round, that doesn't leave you a lot for offense. But you're probably not going to need to be blocking every round. So how does this feel in practice when you actually sit down to play the game?

[Thaago]

Focus spells are unlimited per day as well, and only take 2 actions. In early levels they may be once/encounter, but encounters are only ~4 rounds long! And with multiple focus points in the pool, the focus spell can be called out multiple times for big climactic fights. At upper levels they can be 2-3 times per encounter.

2+1 action cost on the overflow abilities is a big downside - if a kineticist needs to move either to pull them off, or get out of danger, or for any reason, they can't do one every turn. Every other turn is a more realistic rate, at which point they aren't being used that much more than focus spells. So if they are the same power as focus spells, then you have an ability set that will be used the same, maybe a bit more than focus spells, but costs half again as many actions.

To me that points to 2+1 action cost overflow abilities needing to be more powerful than focus spells. They just take too many actions to not be.

[Gayel Nord]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I'm worried about the Action Cost like you and feel it is too restrictive for sure, but I am actually MORE worried about restrictive all of these things are in terms of always requiring free hands as well as making ALL of the various Blasts and other elemental forms specific Actions that are unable to be combined with anything else which prompts for a Strike of one kind or another... in other words, they're HIGHLY encouraged to never use any Weapons beyond the one you can create/summon yourself and they are pretty much totally incompatible with the VAST majority of all the interesting Martial Archetypes.

They're just so incredibly insular and have basically no good reason to grab Archetypes as they can't use the vast majority of interesting things you can get from them with the possible exception of like... grabbing an Animal Companion or some Spellcasting Archetype to inject a bit more (weak) versatility to help them overcome non-combat challenges.

But... Overflow have no flourish trait, so i could imagine easily a monk or a ranger archetype even if you can't use blast for an unarmed strike.

Before the fight: Gather your energy

First: Flurry of blow

Second and third: an overflow.

[roquepo]

manbearscientist wrote:

I feel like too many impulses were upgraded to 3-actions simply because at level 19 the class can Gather Element as a free action, and at level 20 there is a feat to reduce 3-action impulses to 2-actions.

If that is the case, I think that is a mistake. At those levels it is really easy that half of the party or more are quickened for most fights, the value that feat has is not as big as to change how the rest of the class operates in the other 18 levels.

[Guntermench]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

How "inconvenient/workable is the action economy" is something you can really only figure out by playtesting.

Like for a simple example, the Earth Shield impulse potentially has a lot of hardness (33 at max, 13 more than a sturdy shield) and it costs nothing more than an action to repair. But if you're spending an action to gather and an action to raise your shield every round, that doesn't leave you a lot for offense. But you're probably not going to need to be blocking every round. So how does this feel in practice when you actually sit down to play the game?

I'm still really curious if that shield can work with Destructive Block because it does technically break...

[YuriP]

The sensation I have is the designers thought "You complain about spells are too limited I will show what's limit" and created the 3+1 action Impulse magics. kkkk

Joking apart. I agree with roquepo OP. The 3+1 action can easily balanced to a 2-action spellslot's spell or 3-action focus spell at my viewpoint. Their harm to action economy enormous and many action damage conditions like slow and stun can basically blocks them. Specially if we consider that even Severe encounters usually ends around 3-4 rounds and that 3 Focus Spells usually are enough to deal with such duration. Using 3+1 in fact is even harder than Focus Spells. The battle will end with one side down before the Kineticist even can uses 3 spells like this. No mattering if you can cast then indefinidally. And we have to remember that the caster can learn spells and put in its spellbook/repertoire without use a single feat the Kineticist still need to use feats to add more Impulses.

I could say a similar thing to 2+1 action Impulse to 2-action focus spellslot power. Due the encounter not enduring more than this and because this extra action also restricts what element the Kineticist can use. So a 3 focus point char can use 2-action focus and 1-action to freely do something the Kineticist need to Gather Element obligatorily or will even unable to use Elemental Blast.

And the same logic of 1+1 action Impulse can be equivalent to cantrips due the difference that while a spellcaster starts usually with 3-5 cantrips automatically an can buy 2 extra cantrips via class feat or 1 via some ancestries the Kineticist once again need to do a 1 to 1 feat per 1-action Impulse magic.

This way feels fair to me.

[graystone]

Gayel Nord wrote:

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

A wizard can make unlimited Strikes with a Repeating Crossbow but that doesn't mean that it isn't an underpowered option.

[roquepo]

graystone wrote:

Gayel Nord wrote:

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

A wizard can make unlimited Strikes with a Repeating Crossbow but that doesn't mean that it isn't an underpowered option.

What about readying an Aid action an unlimited amount of times? Overpowered strategy.

[YuriP]

graystone wrote:

Gayel Nord wrote:

... I don't think they are underpowered. For the simple reason... That there is no limit of how many you can do in a day.

A wizard can make unlimited Strikes with a Repeating Crossbow but that doesn't mean that it isn't an underpowered option.

Yet it's still a good strategy in lower levels.

The good old EA+Shoot with a 16 dex Wizard.

[graystone]

YuriP wrote:

Yet it's still a good strategy in lower levels.

With no proficiency bonus?

[YuriP]

graystone wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Yet it's still a good strategy in lower levels.

With no proficiency bonus?

Sorry I'm need to explain bit more. But it's buying the proficiency using a general/ancestry feat.

Obs.: I'm not talking about Repeating Xbows, I'm talking about Bows (but can be done less effectively with air pistols). (that's why I used shot)

[graystone]

YuriP wrote:

Obs.: I'm not talking about Repeating Xbows, I'm talking about Bows (but can be done less effectively with air pistols). (that's why I used shot)

I specifically picked Repeating Xbows because it wouldn't have proficiency to illustrate that just because an option could be done at will doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. So crossbow shots and repeating crossbow shots are both at will but there is a big difference in quality even though both are at will.

[Martialmasters]

Saying focus spells are unlimited uses per day is a bad faith argument.

They are 1-3 per encounter and you might not have ten minutes to reset them before the next encounter.

Now as for overflow. It's a question if frequency vs power. Right now the frequency is essentially unlimited. But the power is low.

If you want more power, you give up frequency.

1 per day per overflow?

A con mod font if sorts?

Make overflow focus points instead?

Any of these cases give you more power at the cost of less frequency

[YuriP]

Martialmasters wrote:

Make overflow focus points instead?

Honestly I was thinking in this solution. Soon I will open a thread to discuss this.

[Martialmasters]

YuriP wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Make overflow focus points instead?

Honestly I was thinking in this solution. Soon I will open a thread to discuss this.

I kind of did, but it only mentions it. Perhaps a more focused (lol) thread would be needed I don't know.

[Guntermench]

Martialmasters wrote:

Saying focus spells are unlimited uses per day is a bad faith argument.

They are 1-3 per encounter and you might not have ten minutes to reset them before the next encounter.

Now as for overflow. It's a question if frequency vs power. Right now the frequency is essentially unlimited. But the power is low.

If you want more power, you give up frequency.

1 per day per overflow?

A con mod font if sorts?

Make overflow focus points instead?

Any of these cases give you more power at the cost of less frequency

The frequency is very much limited. It's still basically limited to 1 or 2 a fight for the 3 action ones with how long fights generally last.

No, you don't need to wait ten minutes, but the game kinda expects you're going to have the ten minutes anyway so this is a moot point.

[Martialmasters]

Guntermench wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Saying focus spells are unlimited uses per day is a bad faith argument.

They are 1-3 per encounter and you might not have ten minutes to reset them before the next encounter.

Now as for overflow. It's a question if frequency vs power. Right now the frequency is essentially unlimited. But the power is low.

If you want more power, you give up frequency.

1 per day per overflow?

A con mod font if sorts?

Make overflow focus points instead?

Any of these cases give you more power at the cost of less frequency

The frequency is very much limited. It's still basically limited to 1 or 2 a fight for the 3 action ones with how long fights generally last.

No, you don't need to wait ten minutes, but the game kinda expects you're going to have the ten minutes anyway so this is a moot point.

Feel how you want. It's currently unlimited and to act like there are never scenarios that

1- go more than 2 or 3 rounds

2- don't happen inside a ten minute window

Is being disingenuous. I'll grant you it's not the norm though.

Just last month I had 2 back to back combats go over 4 rounds.

What I think we kind of agree on. Is that unlimited uses per day is probably not needed? Especially if it would result in more powerful options.

[Lightning Raven]

Kekkres wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Doesn't matter if you can do it all day if it basically tickles.

more or less this, actions are a resource too, and if you are spending too many actions for too little effect it doesnt matter if you dont have to spend anything else

Action is the biggest resource there is. Playstyles that rely on "lasting all day" by sacrificing power and impact rarely ever work if they are not martial classes (who get the numbers to compensate and occupy a different niche altogether).

The fact of the matter is that as long as TTRPGs last a short number of rounds and parties will, far more often than not, stop once they're low on important resources, A.K.A. spell slots, then the added benefit of doing it all day becomes meaningless.

Damage over time effects, long ramp ups, sustained resources and similar styles that sacrifice burst power for a "longer" adventuring day are things for other kinds of games that can afford longer running battles (like computer games such as Pillars of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin, etc).

Want the best example? Just look at the myriad of Alchemist threads that are almost monthly by now.

[Martialmasters]

Like it or not unless they lower kineticist martial progression to cap at expert.

They are martial classes in 2e.

With some great utility and group support options. I understand if this is not the kineticist you hoped for.

[Guntermench]

I disagree with the premise that they can't be a bit stronger at their current action cost. I don't need them to match spell slots, but I'd prefer they do more than cantrips.

[Martialmasters]

Guntermench wrote:

I disagree with the premise that they can't be a bit stronger at their current action cost. I don't need them to match spell slots, but I'd prefer they do more than cantrips.

Simply adding con to damage would do that barring people's gripes with not having legendary class DC. I still think it's too much for them to get buffed, have legendary class DC and master martial proficiency though

[Aswaarg]

I see overflows as a resource to cast once or twice in a combat, not the main action every turn, being the blast or other impulses the main thing for the kinecist. Maybe is not what most people whant and something should be changed, but I think the development for this class is the main feature, the blasts.

[Martialmasters]

Aswaarg wrote:

I see overflows as a resource to cast once or twice in a combat, not the main action every turn, being the blast or other impulses the main thing for the kinecist. Maybe is not what most people whant and something should be changed, but I think the development for this class is the main feature, the blasts.

Your not wrong. If their main focus was aoe and DC abilities they'd have something that does that out the gate.

That said. I think most are in agreement that adjustments to those abilities or to overflow itself. Would be welcomed.

[Lightning Raven]

Personally, I think they should go "Bang for Buck" on this one. Often my complaints are about poor action economy in classes and lack of mechanically varied, interesting and flavorful feats, which we can say with certainty that the Kineticist is not lacking at all.

I think the Kineticist could do with these clunky 3+1 action costs, as long as the pay off is great.

Personally, I've seen one ability flying under the radar, which is a 6th level feat of Water called Slippery Sleet, which deals damage, creates difficult terrain and Uneven Ground. That s*$$ is NASTY, which by the way is a 20ft burst out the gate. It honestly should stay as it is but moved to higher levels while dealing more damage in compensation. Not every character has Acrobatics and a DC 15 will be failed by those without it. This can screw over bulky Extreme Threats with low dex and no acrobatics.

A while ago I said I would pay a 5th-6th level spell slot for a spell that created uneven terrain in a large area and nothing but that. Seeing this stacked almost at-will ability made my eyes pop.This one is DEFINITELY worth the 3+1 action cost even with its 1-round duration.

[Captain Morgan]

Put me in the "how does it feel in actual play?" camp. I suspect (haven't played it myself either yet) that looking at action costs of overflows in a vacuum is missing some things. You walk into most fights having already Gathered, so that action is shaved off. And any "off rounds" you aren't using overflow you're probably still squeezing off at least one Blast.

A spell might take two actions and look better comparatively to a two or three action overflow, but the caster has a harder time finding a productive third action if they aren't a bard. You can only Demoralize or Recall so many times in a fight, and Strikes are limited by proficiency and durability. Your caster would cast three spells/cantrips/focus spells across 3 turns, but the kineticist could do blast+air boomerang, gather+blast+blast, then storm spiral across the three turns.

I thiiiink the class is meant to building your own martial arts combos more than set routines, which is a really interesting and thematically appropriate space for the class. Not sure how it maths out yet, but I do think comparing them to spells by themselves won't work.

Quote:

I am actually MORE worried about restrictive all of these things are in terms of always requiring free hands as well as making ALL of the various Blasts and other elemental forms specific Actions that are unable to be combined with anything else which prompts for a Strike of one kind or another... in other words, they're HIGHLY encouraged to never use any Weapons beyond the one you can create/summon yourself and they are pretty much totally incompatible with the VAST majority of all the interesting Martial Archetypes.

They seem to work pretty well with Monk multiclass and Martial Artist, though. And doesn't elemental weapon basically fix this anyway? (Aside from not giving you two handed options.)

[Gaulin]

I would be extremely bummed if kineticist turned into a regular martial with focus spells. Really hope that idea doesn't catch on. I understand why people are leaning that way; the game is balanced against focus spells and high level spell slots, expendable resources. Kineticist doesn't spend limited resources (and yes focus points are limited resources, not limited daily but limited per fight) and so it's power level is lower, but I do think it can be raised slightly.

My favorite suggestions reading through the forums are:

Keep the class as is, but shift a few things around. Give expert to attacks at 5 like everyone else, add con to impulse damage, buff underperforming impulses like the 1d4/2levels impulses. Maybe not all of those, but a combination would be nice.

Add a way to specialize. I know kineticist has a ton of choices already, but a cleric like selection would be really cool and might allow the best of both worlds. I don't think people are ever going to agree if blasting is most important or overflow/other impulses, so give them the choice. A martial focus wouldgive expert at 5 and keep the rest as is now, while a casting focus would give expert at 13 or whatever is normal for casters and class DC up to legendary like other casters.

[Kyrone]

I did test in the first day in a lvl 3 one-shot, it does indeed feel better, played a dedicated water one.

Being able to do blast + tidal hands and next turn gather + blast twice was fine, and later that build could have 2 actions blasts to out in there like the one that strikes 5 creatures. I even managed water dance allies out of enemies range too and that was a cool as heck utility in battle

Gather element could have a small bonus on it depending of the element like a small circumstance bonus to AC if earth and so on, but it was not as bad as I thought would be.

Power wise impulses could indeed use a boost, but should be better than a cantrip but worse than inventor unstable actions per example.

[Unicore]

I really like Ariel boomerang’s design. It is essentially designed to be cast every other round, since you get to attack with it again the next round. I like how strong earth shield is, but 2 actions to raise a better shield starts to feel steep. Basically, I don’t think the issue is the overall design as much as it is individual overflow feats and wether in practice using them feels good. I haven’t looked close enough at water and fire to speak to them.

[Dubious Scholar]

Martialmasters wrote:

Like it or not unless they lower kineticist martial progression to cap at expert.

They are martial classes in 2e.

With some great utility and group support options. I understand if this is not the kineticist you hoped for.

So is Summoner, except that eidolons are easily better at melee than a kineticist is, you can use scrolls/wands without restriction for utility, and you still get a few spell slots every day (at max tier) for additional power. Oh, and you get some focus spells with good utility (or raw damage for Elemental Wrath). And eidolons all bring their own special tricks (e.g. breath weapons, pounce, reach on everything, etc)

[manbearscientist]

Kyrone wrote:

I did test in the first day in a lvl 3 one-shot, it does indeed feel better, played a dedicated water one.

Being able to do blast + tidal hands and next turn gather + blast twice was fine, and later that build could have 2 actions blasts to out in there like the one that strikes 5 creatures. I even managed water dance allies out of enemies range too and that was a cool as heck utility in battle

Gather element could have a small bonus on it depending of the element like a small circumstance bonus to AC if earth and so on, but it was not as bad as I thought would be.

Power wise impulses could indeed use a boost, but should be better than a cantrip but worse than inventor unstable actions per example.

Keep in mind that Water reads as significantly better than the other elements. For instance, Tidal Surge is equivalent, but better, to what Fire gets as its 4th level cone in Blazing Wave.

I suspect that this is not an accident. Having a range of power levels for elements is a useful tool for a playtest. Aquakineticists seem to be the high water mark this time around. They get more versatile impulses, earlier, and often just deal more damage (such as getting 1d8 blasts). At a guess, fire is the roughest.

[Guntermench]

Aquakineticists...high water mark...

I see what you did there.

[Martialmasters]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Like it or not unless they lower kineticist martial progression to cap at expert.

They are martial classes in 2e.

With some great utility and group support options. I understand if this is not the kineticist you hoped for.

So is Summoner, except that eidolons are easily better at melee than a kineticist is, you can use scrolls/wands without restriction for utility, and you still get a few spell slots every day (at max tier) for additional power. Oh, and you get some focus spells with good utility (or raw damage for Elemental Wrath). And eidolons all bring their own special tricks (e.g. breath weapons, pounce, reach on everything, etc)

And they have 4 spell slots per day and only get to master spell DC and class DC.

Point?

[Zzeae]

After playing a level 8 one-shot, I think the action economy can work. The 2+1 and 3+1 cost spells encourage you to do multiple different things each turn, and combo together multiple turns. For air (what I tested) Blast + Boomerang into Gather + 2 action blast felt very good, and leans into the strength of being able to make an attack roll AND a spell save in the same turn for max value.

On the other hand, this further restricts the usage of overflow per combat, and lends credence to the argument that they should be more compareable to focus spell strength. The "infinite" argument means little when you use them twice per 4 round combat. For my two cents they should have legendary DC, but that won't actually increase the power of the class in any noticeable way most of the time and is mostly a QoL change.

Because the class is designed around what is effectively a 6 action basic combo, even using a single move action can noticeably reduce your efficiency. I won't say this is a bad thing just yet, but I wouldnt be surprised if having built in 3rd action choices that are almost mandatory means common 3rd action options will go unused, and the support systems built into the game won't interact with the class.

Going back to the main topic of this thread, the biggest problem is the payoff. The unique action economy can work, but this means you get maybe 2 overflow effects off per combat. The damage on the damage overflow is way to small, and the fun utility effects are way too underwhelming. It's easy enough to buff the damage on the damage overflow, but the utility effects will need more creative solutions.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think the overflow feats are designed to not be too powerful in case you spam them, hypothetically you could do tremor every turn and other classes don't get stuff like that.

But I think in practice the Kineticist's spamming of abilities is mitigated by the sheer quantity of things you want to turn on in combat that might also require sustaining that eat up your actions preventing 2-3 action impulses.

Like the design idea behind making things 2-3 action activities is "you cannot do two of these things in one turn" but they give you so many 2 action activities (which might need an extra action) that the question becomes "how many of these will you get to use in a single combat?"

[Kyrone]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the overflow feats are designed to not be too powerful in case you spam them, hypothetically you could do tremor every turn and other classes don't get stuff like that.

But I think in practice the Kineticist's spamming of abilities is mitigated by the sheer quantity of things you want to turn on in combat that might also require sustaining that eat up your actions preventing 2-3 action impulses.

Yeah, when playing it really feels like you want to combine to the default Elemental blast with the other impulses, I think that just giving or making something that makes combining them feel and flow more naturally would help a lot.

[Themetricsystem]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the overflow feats are designed to not be too powerful in case you spam them, hypothetically you could do tremor every turn and other classes don't get stuff like that.

What? Comparing Tremor versus Scatter Scree which is a Cantrip, requires fewer Actions, deals more damage on average at EVERY LEVEL, creates TWICE as many hazardous areas, creates a terrain hazard for 10x longer, has the exact same scaling for character level, and the only downside compared to the Tremor OVERFLOW FEAT ACTION is that on a critical failure fort save for the opponent is that it knocks them prone...

The Kin has to spend Class Feats in order to get access to abilities that can't be combined with anything else that are, in pretty much every measurable way, weaker than Cantrips with similar theming that are as easy to grab as saving one Ancestry, General, or Class Feat and in most situations you'd also get WAY WAY more than just the one comparable Cantrip.

They are SUPER undertuned at the moment and I can only pray this is a multiple phase playtest...

[Dubious Scholar]

I think it's safe to say that an overflow impulse should always outdamage a comparable cantrip in their current state due to requiring more actions.

How close they get to focus spells is debatable, since focus spells are more limited use at lower levels than high (this... doesn't always matter, depending on the focus spell, since they cover a broad range of uses, but in terms of pure blasts)

[manbearscientist]

Zzeae wrote:

Because the class is designed around what is effectively a 6 action basic combo, even using a single move action can noticeably reduce your efficiency. I won't say this is a bad thing just yet, but I wouldnt be surprised if having built in 3rd action choices that are almost mandatory means common 3rd action options will go unused, and the support systems built into the game won't interact with the class.

I don't think being derailed by a single move action is a healthy place to be. One of the absolute best features of 2E is the freedom the unbounded 3-action system gives it. Being unable to move, Raise a Shield, Demoralize, cast a cantrip from a multiclass archetype, &c. from the massive list of actions and activities is a bad thing.

I think there is a very simple solution to this, and a less simple but more flavorful solution. The simple solution is to let the kineticist Stride at half their Speed when Gathering Elements (going up to their Speed at some point).

The more flavorful solution is to let different elements or gate types do different things, in the same way Gunslingers reload differently.

[YuriP]

Themetricsystem wrote:

They are SUPER undertuned at the moment and I can only pray this is a multiple phase playtest...

Sorry to be the pessimist but I don't believe in this. All other classes playtest was just 1 fase. I suggested to do 2-fase playtests in a thread some time ago. But even the players here in forum did't consider this even happen someday. Maybe I can be wrong now but I don't believe in this.

manbearscientist wrote:

I don't think being derailed by a single move action is a healthy place to be. One of the absolute best features of 2E is the freedom the unbounded 3-action system gives it. Being unable to move, Raise a Shield, Demoralize, cast a cantrip from a multiclass archetype, &c. from the massive list of actions and activities is a bad thing.

This can become even worse if we consider that all Impulse actions can trigger AoO. Any to close opponent may break all your action economy turning everything even worse.

Just to "disengage" after a Overflow you need to waste the entire turn using actions to Step, Stride and Gathering Elements. It's just terrible.

[Kekkres]

YuriP wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

They are SUPER undertuned at the moment and I can only pray this is a multiple phase playtest...

Sorry to be the pessimist but I don't believe in this. All other classes playtest was just 1 fase. I suggested to do 2-fase playtests in a thread some time ago. But even the players here in forum did't consider this even happen someday. Maybe I can be wrong now but I don't believe in this.

the last time i recall a two phase playtest was the advanced class guide in pf1 which was... a hot minuite ago