are bards better than occult sorcerers in every way?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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like the occult sorcerer gets spontaneous spell casting

a bard can get occult spell casting + learn spells + learn from other lists + lore + music buffs

i'm wrong is thinking that the bard is absolutely superior in every way?


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Sorcerers get an extra slot per level and can also learn from other lists.


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That is a bit of the problem of many of the "insert a spell list" classes. A large number of their feats are just vague support for broad swaths, and not very many actual builds.

One counter example is the blaster sorcerer. they are well supported. An elemental sorcerer has a good time. But then, the fey sorcerer, who uses the same list, but doesn't focus on blasting... so what does he have?

This is the problem. With 4 spell lists, they need 8+ blood lines in order to give at least some degree of choice for each spell list (and when other classes add 1-2 muses/rackets/etc, sorcerer needs 3-4 bloodlines).

But that many choices means that each one is minimal to save space, since they need to name it, list the spell list, list bloodline spells, and put in 3 focus spells. When they write feats, they write them for "occult blood lines" since they don't have room to write just for one, and it is hard to build up much past that since the spell lines with the same list don't build up shared features.

In comparison, the bard gets 3 muses in core, and it isn't hard to fit that into 1-2 pages while giving each nice themes and features. They then can split up the feats between those muses without leaving any one muse untouched. Additionally, they can create later feats to build on the first few feats (such as inspire heroics affecting both inspire courage, as well as inspire defense).

Liberty's Edge

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Occult Sorcerers get more spells per day, and a lot more versatility in terms of spells known if they pick the right Feats. Occult Evolution to freely pick an extra spell known per day is pretty great for niche utility stuff.

Some Bloodlines also have a variety of neat stuff that you can't readily get as a Bard. Hag Bloodline Sorcerers get Baleful Polymorph, for example, and that's an awesome spell.


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Bards are better in every way. It's not much of a contest.

You can MC into sorcerer to get Dangerous Sorcerer if you want it, but damage spells aren't even the best thing the occult list does.

Bard cantrips are better than the extra slots the sorcerer gets.

If you go Polymath as second path, you can eventually access spells from every list.

Bards are good.


I feel Sorcerer brings a lot to the table. They have interesting focus spells and more spell slots.

Also they get more spells known by default too. Since they get a bloodline spell for free. They also get a bloodline ability that adds a little too.

I admit bards are different but by default they arent just better. I think they are both viable and good.

Honestly I am not sure which one I like better, I do like both a lot though and are probably my favorite classes


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"are bards better than occult sorcerers in every way?": in general, bards are better. In every way, no: sorcerers have more slots, can get non-occult spells. Ancestral magic line lets you add ancestry/heritage innate spells to your repertoire.

So you can find a niche to be better in if you try. Overall though, bard wins out.


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I never really understood why the bard was the only class that got focus cantrips. It seems like such a great mechanic when you are trying to make a class's bread and butter abilities. It gives you something unique to you that you can do all day without worrying about resources.


lemeres wrote:
I never really understood why the bard was the only class that got focus cantrips. It seems like such a great mechanic when you are trying to make a class's bread and butter abilities. It gives you something unique to you that you can do all day without worrying about resources.

Witch has them as well.

In general, focus cantrips are one of the major reasons bards and witches have fewer spells per day.

A class that has more spells but not a spammable unique gimmick is something that the game should have, and giving the more spells to the iconic spellcasters, wizards and sorcs, seems fine to me.


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In the end, bards are just better. About the only thing that occult sorcerers have over bards is one additional spell slot per spell level and a set list of spells from other traditions. Bards focusing on casting can eventually draw from any tradition, can get more powerful unique cantrips, and at 20th level bards can get the holy grail of spontaneous spellcasting, making all of their spells signature spells.


I just wanted to give a little more details of why I think Sorcerer is just as viable as Bard. The base abilities that separate the classes are...

Bard:
-"Better proficiencies" (Overall I feel this is minor since we are trying to compare their casting. early on they definitely help)
-Inspire courage
-A muse
-Counter performance (Honestly I feel it is negligible)

Sorcerer:
-One spell slot per level
-One spell known per level
-A bloodline

I feel that in general mentioning feats is useless since the game is so flexible with dedications that the point is moot. Just as an example a Sorcerer can get the Muse feat and inspire courage for 3 feats.

So for a quick comparison
-I feel muses are roughly equal to a bloodline and might even say bloodline is better. I actually prefer the bloodline and would gladly swap my muse on the bard out for a bloodline instead if I could!
-Having light armor helps at the start but the differences just get nullified as you gain levels.
-The big difference is inspire courage vs more spells and spells known.

In general I feel Bards excel at longer adventuring days while Sorcerer are better in short adventuring days. I admit inspire courage is powerful and yes Bard is probably better in most situations at early levels. As players level up power level starts to equalize though. I would even say Bard is "better" than EVERY class in the entire game at early levels as long as the party is 4+ people.


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Party composition also matters. Bards are better the more people you have making attacks. In a 3 caster 1 martial party a sorcerer will probably bring more to the table.


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Bard is clearly on the very good side of things, even a bit on the overpowered one. Comparing any caster to Bard is just a bad idea, you will always end up with the feeling that Bard is better. Most classes feel weak compared to the best ones.

Now, Sorcerer is fine and should give a lot of fun to its players. Not all Occult casters have to be Bards just because Bard is so good.


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You also start as a Sorcerer and multiclass into Bard. By level 8, you can have both Inspire Courage (which many I've seen have said is the best focus cantrip in the game) as well as the Sorcerer's superior spellcasting.


i wanted to play a wizard

then i thought arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution gets to learns spells so they are just better

then i realize bards can do that too but they can also eventually learn from all traditions and since spell sage was one of my favorites this i a huge + for me

also bards have lore which fills the niche of being a knowledge power house

so there is no reason for me to not just play a bard even thought i couldn't care less about the musical part of the class

sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music

as for lifespam if i can cast alter reality every day without cost i can just use it to make 2 days younger

otherwise if it doesn't work i can just use it to copy plane-shift and go to the astral plane until i find a solution


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ArchSage20 wrote:

i wanted to play a wizard

then i thought arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution gets to learns spells so they are just better

then i realize bards can do that too but they can also eventually learn from all traditions and since spell sage was one of my favorites this i a huge + for me

also bards have lore which fills the niche of being a knowledge power house

so there is no reason for me to not just play a bard even thought i couldn't care less about the musical part of the class

sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music

as for lifespam if i can cast alter reality every day without cost i can just use it to make 2 days younger

otherwise if it doesn't work i can just use it to copy plane-shift and go to the astral plane until i find a solution

Your "Inspire Courage" cantrip could be flavored as your super-knowledgable spellcaster shouting fun facts about the enemies they are currently fighting.


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ArchSage20 wrote:

i wanted to play a wizard

then i thought arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution gets to learns spells so they are just better

then i realize bards can do that too but they can also eventually learn from all traditions and since spell sage was one of my favorites this i a huge + for me

also bards have lore which fills the niche of being a knowledge power house

so there is no reason for me to not just play a bard even thought i couldn't care less about the musical part of the class

sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music

as for lifespam if i can cast alter reality every day without cost i can just use it to make 2 days younger

otherwise if it doesn't work i can just use it to copy plane-shift and go to the astral plane until i find a solution

I am very confused about your comment. All these classes have different things they are good at so how did you decide "there is no reason not to play a bard". There are so many reasons to play other classes especially since there are plenty of good spells there is really no need to get other traditions.

Are you talking about the impossible Polymath feat at level 18? That seems to be the only thing that lets you get other traditions that I see at quick glance and feel that is a poor reason to pick a class.

Also are you aware you can get Bardic Lore on every class for 2 feats? So you could easily be any class and be a knowledge powerhouse.


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RPGnoremac wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:

i wanted to play a wizard

then i thought arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution gets to learns spells so they are just better

then i realize bards can do that too but they can also eventually learn from all traditions and since spell sage was one of my favorites this i a huge + for me

also bards have lore which fills the niche of being a knowledge power house

so there is no reason for me to not just play a bard even thought i couldn't care less about the musical part of the class

sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music

as for lifespam if i can cast alter reality every day without cost i can just use it to make 2 days younger

otherwise if it doesn't work i can just use it to copy plane-shift and go to the astral plane until i find a solution

I am very confused about your comment. All these classes have different things they are good at so how did you decide "there is no reason not to play a bard". There are so many reasons to play other classes especially since there are plenty of good spells there is really no need to get other traditions.

Are you talking about the impossible Polymath feat at level 18? That seems to be the only thing that lets you get other traditions that I see at quick glance and feel that is a poor reason to pick a class.

Also are you aware you can get Bardic Lore on every class for 2 feats? So you could easily be any class and be a knowledge powerhouse.

1 feat actually, if you take Loremaster Dedication.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sorcerer also get stronger focus spells, IMPO. At least outside of cantrips. And they refocus every 10 minutes without any special activity. This means they can recover bust those out slightly more often. If your caster needs to do something else, like run to the next battle or identify magic, they can still get that focus point back.

Also, while Inspire Courage is an amazing third action, these classes already have some good third actions. High charisma makes strong demoralizers. There are single action focus spells. And with bespell weapon a weapon strike is respectable for a sorcerer

I might still say bards are better, but I think they might be the best class in the game and I think they are different enough to both be worth playing.


Ventnor wrote:
You also start as a Sorcerer and multiclass into Bard. By level 8, you can have both Inspire Courage (which many I've seen have said is the best focus cantrip in the game) as well as the Sorcerer's superior spellcasting.

This is exactly why I love PF2E so much, it just seems like characters are going to be so unique by level 8 and classes are just so versatile because of this. For the most part if there is something from another class you get it with some exceptions without hurting your class.


RPGnoremac wrote:

I am very confused about your comment. All these classes have different things they are good at so how did you decide "there is no reason not to play a bard". There are so many reasons to play other classes especially since there are plenty of good spells there is really no need to get other traditions.

Are you talking about the impossible Polymath feat at level 18? That seems to be the only thing that lets you get other traditions that I see at quick glance and feel that is a poor reason to pick a class.

Also are you aware you can get Bardic Lore on every class for 2 feats? So you could easily be any class and be a knowledge powerhouse.

they have many thing but not all of those thing are relevant to me

i put a lot of if not all of my interest in the lore. role-play and post-game aspects of the game

many people like to see the game from a turn based strategy perspective and that is fine for them but i care little about that

for instance spells can just be bought as wands or magic items if you have time but 10th level spells cant be replicated

if you have a level 10th wish or equivalent then you basically have every single of that tradition

wish = every arcane spell of 9th or under ever

alter reality = every occult spell of 9th or under ever

primal phenomenon = every primal spell of 9th or under ever

miracle = every divine spell of 9th or under ever

hence the only non replicable spells are those of 10th level such as gate, time stop etc...

most martial abilities or skills can be either mimicked or replaced by spells specially the 10th level ones

also for my character to be able to do the things he want he will need copious amounts of knowledge which the bardic lore fulfills

yes i can get an archetype but with the bard i don't need and he already has so much going for him

i also like to pick arcane crafting and survival

unified theory so he can replace other knowledge checks

craft anything so he can well craft anything that might be necessary

and the survival ones so he can survive in other planes like the astral plane

all those so he can reliably go to the astral plane and plan his path to ascension into a nascent great old one like aucturn and then a real one like hastur so he can aim for outer godhood and become like Nyarlathotep and plan his escape from the accursed cycle of reincarnation

i mean if its already difficult to do those things with all magic lore etc... then imagine doing it as a martial its outright unthinkable no amount of sword mastery will grant you that

i tend to go for utility spells like create food, create water, invisibility, fly etc... i also tend to play sandbox games so fighting isn't something i wants to do its something i avoid and usually do it in the most unfair way for the enemy the proverbial scry and then teleport with surgical precision

typically if you cant win for sure run with spells and if you must fight then use something like gating your enemy into a deadly place of the negative plane

so for my specific playstyle and object the bard soes much better than both the wizard and sorcerer


Where do bards get the actions to actually cast spells? Composition, move, whiptrip, bon mot, one for all (SB sidetrip on a free archtype char). So many useful actions.


Ventnor wrote:
You also start as a Sorcerer and multiclass into Bard. By level 8, you can have both Inspire Courage (which many I've seen have said is the best focus cantrip in the game) as well as the Sorcerer's superior spellcasting.

I have a backburner character concept that would do this, actually. An aberrant bloodline sorc who multiclasses as a bard for some of the compositions and that music flavor, since their particular aberrant-ness comes from having to share their mind with one of these squiggly guys.

Silver Crusade

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Mechanically I think bards and sorcerer's are about on par (those extra spells are pretty nice) with bard maybe having a slight edge.

But they're going to play differently. A bard is going to be under considerable social pressure to USE those wonderful cantrips, a sorcerer often has an extra 3rd action to do stuff.

Bottom line to me is that if you WANT to buff your allies/debuff your enemies then the bard is by far the superior class. But if you WANT to do something else with your 3rd action (maybe use a weapon, or an animal companion, or a familiar, whatever) then the sorcerer is the better class.

Which seems to be pretty darn good game design. You pick the class that better models what you want to accomplish.


I will say one thing I've not seen talked about is the difference in the turn that takes place. Bards have to spend actions to maintain or extend their inspiration, while sorcerers can right into casting their other spells with every action they have. In practice I'm not sure how different it is, but that seems to be something that should be taken into account.


TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
I will say one thing I've not seen talked about is the difference in the turn that takes place. Bards have to spend actions to maintain or extend their inspiration, while sorcerers can right into casting their other spells with every action they have. In practice I'm not sure how different it is, but that seems to be something that should be taken into account.

Then you have to take into account that bards get a class feat that gives them a quickened action for casting bard cantrips.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
I will say one thing I've not seen talked about is the difference in the turn that takes place. Bards have to spend actions to maintain or extend their inspiration, while sorcerers can right into casting their other spells with every action they have. In practice I'm not sure how different it is, but that seems to be something that should be taken into account.
Then you have to take into account that bards get a class feat that gives them a quickened action for casting bard cantrips.

And feats that can extend the duration up to 4 rounds. ;)


If bards are better it's probably because they have focus cantrips as powerful as inspire courage. Otherwise, I think bards and sorcerers are roughly equal and serve different play styles.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
I will say one thing I've not seen talked about is the difference in the turn that takes place. Bards have to spend actions to maintain or extend their inspiration, while sorcerers can right into casting their other spells with every action they have. In practice I'm not sure how different it is, but that seems to be something that should be taken into account.
Then you have to take into account that bards get a class feat that gives them a quickened action for casting bard cantrips.

At Level 18. It's not something that will show up in a whole lot of campaigns, I think.


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ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music

This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.


Apellosine wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music
This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.

that is not what i meant

- spontaneous occult casting

- allows spells to be learned

- multipurpose lore skills

- learn from all traditions capstone

those are all thing i love about the class except for the music

if instead they changed the cast type to arcane and removed all references to music that would be my ideal wizard

which ironically is much like a arcane sorcerer

i could pick a magaambyan arcane sorcerer but that a far less efficient way to get all traditions and i wouldn't even have access to lore master

hence the bard is very efficient at doing what i want him to do the only flaw is that he is a bard

i have this conspiracy theory that they were going to give the lore + muti tradition to the wizard which would match the arcane skill unified theory but they just changed mid midway hence why its so bad

so the music part i'm want to take of is the aspect of buffing people and the music theme, basically i just don't want my character holding a instrument as it has nothing to do with his theme


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You do know that you don't have to hold an instrument, right? The spells feature just says you can, not that you have to. Same goes for the Performance skill, too.


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Bards only need to use performance skill if I remember correctly. Which includes: Comedy, Acting, and Oration.

For a Wizard-like feeling I would suggest using oration to give a presentation on "The Formulation For Multiple Buffs Via Application of Sound Waves". Or you know just be a cool Wizard and inspire the team with a rousing speech.

Silver Crusade

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Wizard-like Bard? Presentation!


Perpdepog wrote:
You do know that you don't have to hold an instrument, right? The spells feature just says you can, not that you have to. Same goes for the Performance skill, too.

You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it. If you don't care about either, sure you can avoid using it: You can dance, orate, sing, ect instead and you could say sing as a chant, orate as spell words [no one said they are comprehensible/understandable words], or use elaborate Somatic components that require more movement than normal.

Liberty's Edge

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graystone wrote:
You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it.

For the record, there are Performance increasing items other than musical instruments (specifically, the Dancing Scarf and Persona Mask).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
graystone wrote:
You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it.
For the record, there are Performance increasing items other than musical instruments (specifically, the Dancing Scarf and Persona Mask).

Yep, I forget about them as I usually use an instrument for substitute components. ;)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
graystone wrote:
You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it.
For the record, there are Performance increasing items other than musical instruments (specifically, the Dancing Scarf and Persona Mask).

i guess the mask looks(sounds) cool since i always play as a dark hooded figure with a mask this will not make much difference

also i guess aberration sorcerer could technically become a aberration at level 20 which may or may not help my character


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ArchSage20 wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
graystone wrote:
You can't get your +1-2 to performance from your instrument and you can't substitute components with it.
For the record, there are Performance increasing items other than musical instruments (specifically, the Dancing Scarf and Persona Mask).

i guess the mask looks(sounds) cool since i always play as a dark hooded figure with a mask this will not make much difference

also i guess aberration sorcerer could technically become a aberration at level 20 which may or may not help my character

Thinking about aberrations... does anyone else think that Azathoth would be a maestro muse?

....it is the only god that I know of that comes with its own backup-band. I think Azathoth's gibberish could be interpreted as scat singing.

Maybe he has a retinue of dark tapestry gods because they all want to stay within range of his performance buffs. If the performance has any kind of skill check related to the target's level, then it would be rare for an elder god to get any kind of decent buff.

This seems to work well into the occult flavor bards have received. they don't have be servants of the beautiful and harmonious- they can be the result of the frantic tempo of a broken mind.


ArchSage20 wrote:
Apellosine wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music
This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.

that is not what i meant

- spontaneous occult casting

- allows spells to be learned

- multipurpose lore skills

- learn from all traditions capstone

Yeah, I'm going to guess that there's not going to be a single class covering all those points, because while they often let concepts overlap, that's a bit TOO close.

That said, there's going to be more archetypes. Some in combination might get you the rest of the way from an Occult or Arcane Sorcerer.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
Apellosine wrote:
ArchSage20 wrote:
sadly knowing paizo they will never release an archetype of the bard without music
This is precisely what the Marshall Archetype is. It is am archetype that buffs allies either through Diplomacy or Intimidation, helps allies get extra attacks and generally does Bard like stuff with more of a Drill Sergeant flavour.

that is not what i meant

- spontaneous occult casting

- allows spells to be learned

- multipurpose lore skills

- learn from all traditions capstone

Yeah, I'm going to guess that there's not going to be a single class covering all those points, because while they often let concepts overlap, that's a bit TOO close.

That said, there's going to be more archetypes. Some in combination might get you the rest of the way from an Occult or Arcane Sorcerer.

yeah the casting tradition isn't as important to me the reason i pick a bone with divine primal is because of where they come from but a undead or elemental sorcerer is something i wouldn't be opposed to

i guess a arcane sorcerer with arcane evolution could use lore master to fill the lore part the only remaining part would be casting from other lists which is why i feel like the bard is just a batter choice

i guess Bloodline Metamorphosis(sadly uncommon) from promise(which i happen to like a lot) would allow that to some degree (not 10th level spells) but its so less efficient that it might just be better to be bard and swallow it by taking a pipe or something (always been fan of the pied piper of Hamelin's story)


Lemeres wrote:
Thinking about aberrations... does anyone else think that Azathoth would be a maestro muse?

Yup! My hypothetical sorcer MC bard was going to run on that, using a flute or pipe like the members of Azathoth's court.


RPGnoremac wrote:

I just wanted to give a little more details of why I think Sorcerer is just as viable as Bard. The base abilities that separate the classes are...

Bard:
-"Better proficiencies" (Overall I feel this is minor since we are trying to compare their casting. early on they definitely help)
-Inspire courage
-A muse
-Counter performance (Honestly I feel it is negligible)

Sorcerer:
-One spell slot per level
-One spell known per level
-A bloodline

I feel that in general mentioning feats is useless since the game is so flexible with dedications that the point is moot. Just as an example a Sorcerer can get the Muse feat and inspire courage for 3 feats.

So for a quick comparison
-I feel muses are roughly equal to a bloodline and might even say bloodline is better. I actually prefer the bloodline and would gladly swap my muse on the bard out for a bloodline instead if I could!
-Having light armor helps at the start but the differences just get nullified as you gain levels.
-The big difference is inspire courage vs more spells and spells known.

In general I feel Bards excel at longer adventuring days while Sorcerer are better in short adventuring days. I admit inspire courage is powerful and yes Bard is probably better in most situations at early levels. As players level up power level starts to equalize though. I would even say Bard is "better" than EVERY class in the entire game at early levels as long as the party is 4+ people.

2 hit points per level, its hard to believe no one has said that yet.

2 extra skills at first level
Yes the armour difference is only important early like levels 1-10. The sorcerer can work around it but is costs a feat or two. So I do feel its significant.

I really like Occult Sorcerers, but mechanically it's hard not to prefer Bards. Sorcerer is better only as a pure caster, and then only marginally. But it is a good choice in most parties to specialise in your role.

To be better an Occult Sorcerer really needs to ustilise their bloodline.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

While I think the gap between them is a bit smaller than some people here suggest, some of the stuff the Polymath gets undermines the thematic differences between them. More signature spells in particular feels like the kind of thing that should belong to the more spellcasting focused class rather than the one that trades raw spellcasting for other benefits.

RPGnoremac wrote:

Bard:

-"Better proficiencies" (Overall I feel this is minor since we are trying to compare their casting. early on they definitely help)

A bard's always going to have more HP and better perception. It's going to spend the front half of the campaign with more AC and the back half with better will saves. I think that's a bit much to just dismiss out of hand.


I mentioned that over a month ago. I mainly was just saying Bards arent "just better Sorcerers". There are quite a few things Sorcerers have that are better.

Oddly my 2 main characters are a Sorcerer and Bard. I think it is safe to say after some experience that lingering composition kind of put Bards in the top tier.

It is crazy how much more powerful my Bard felt picking up maestro muse for lingering composition.

I am definitely not saying Sorcerers are better but they do have some nice features like spells known, more spell slots, thematic bloodlines that the Bard doesn't have.

From a pure overall "best class" I am thinking the award goes to Bards with lingering composition!

Imo Sorcerer easily seems about as powerful as every other caster in power but Bard is kind of a special case.

It does make me wonder if a group with 3 bards (one or two could be gish)+1 Martial that used lingering composition with inspire courage/inspire defense/dirge of doom would steam roll things.

Also about the AC being lower it is super easy to get equal AC. Dedication/General Feat., but yes that means the Bard could take toughness which puts them 3 hp ahead of unarmored casters. This is just a weird thing with unarmored casters in general though not Sorcerer specifically. At least all characters can wear armor in this game unlike PF1.


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In my opinion, Bards should have 1/2 spells per spell level. Giving them full 3-slot casting in top of compositions is just too much. And it would really make the difference between the composition-focused Bard and the spell-focused Occult Sorcerer. Also, people like Bards for their composition more than their spells.


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I think what really separates bards (and druids) from the other spellcasters is "how potent, interesting, and fun their feats are".

So the solution is less "nerf bards" and more "print more fun sorcerer tech."


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Print more fun things for casters in general is the best solution.

Dark Archive

Let’s not forget that, thanks to Studious Capacity, bards eventually become effectively 4 slot casters as well!


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Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Let’s not forget that, thanks to Studious Capacity, bards eventually become effectively 4 slot casters as well!

Studious Capacity only gives you one extra spell per day, and not even of your highest level. So, far from being a 4 slot caster.

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