Shining Lights and Dark Stars

Monday, November 5, 2018

The final chapter of the Doomsday Dawn playtest adventure is here, "When the Stars Go Dark." Your heroes have spent the better part of a decade researching and struggling against the forces of Night Heralds. As the ancient countdown clocks race to their final moments, do your heroes have the courage and skill to save Golarion from a nightmarish fate?

While there's still much to be learned from the playtest, this final segment takes us up through the highest levels of play, wrapping up the "scripted" component. If you haven't completed your run through the previous parts, you still have until the end of the year to play and tell us what you think. Once you've wrapped up "When the Stars Go Dark," make sure to go to the following surveys and give us your feedback on Part 7 of Doomsday Dawn!

Player Survey | Game Master Survey | Open Survey

Gigantic Update 1.6

The final chapter of Doomsday Dawn brings with it the final planned update for the Pathfinder Playtest, Update 1.6, and it's a big one! Now, this doesn't mean it's the last time we're going to tell you about changes and updates—far from it—it just means that this is the last chance we have to make an official update and ensure that all of you can access and use the updated rules in your playtest games.

Stay Classy

Update 1.6 focuses on a variety of classes, in particular addressing some of the systematic class-related topics you've shown us throughout the playtest so far. This isn't the end of the story for any of these classes, but they're the next step along the way, with some useful tweaks and additions we'd like you to test. There's a lot, so I'll give a brief overview class by class.

Alchemist

First off, we've implemented some of the alchemist changes originally seen in the Resonance Test, so the alchemist now can use infused reagents to create alchemical items for free each day. Also, many of you said that you wanted more versatility in building an alchemist who might focus on alchemical items other than bombs, so we've given the alchemist several fields of research specialization, as many players suggested. All the bomb improvement class features have been moved to the new bomber research field, and if you want to be better with mutagens, or healing items, or poisons instead, there are research fields for those, too! Your research field grants you a variety of benefits, including eventually being able to use Quick Alchemy for free on select low-level alchemical items from your specialty!

Barbarian

We've heard you say that the barbarian's rage is weirdly predictable and static, so we're trying out our most experimental change of all: after each round, you roll an increasingly harder flat check to stay in rage (don't worry, it starts at 0, so you always get at least 2 rounds of rage). Let us know whether this helps give rage the feel of a more uncontrollable and emotional event rather than a predictable ebb and flow!

Bard

Thanks to some extremely good dialogue on the forums about confusion with bardic muses and their associated feats, we've revamped the way these are constructed. Now, each muse's feats are limited to that muse, but we've added a new feat to let you keep all the flexibility you had before. Taking the Multifarious Muse feat lets you gain a 1st-level feat from a different muse than the one you started with, and qualifies you to take that muse's feats in the future. In essence, this keeps all the benefits of the old system without any of the confusion of the prerequisites; plus, it's even more flexible if more 1st-level feats come out for any of the muses later.

Cleric

There's only really one feature for one class that you've all told us time and again is too much: clerics get too many uses of channel energy. We've reduced that, but rather than leave clerics hanging, we've instituted a change to somatic components such that you can now perform them even with your hands full. This mainly benefits two-handed clerics and weapon-and-shield clerics (as well as those types of paladins), who now don't need to take feats specifically to avoid this issue.

Druid

We've increased goodberry healing as well as animal companion Armor Class opportunities (especially if you don't want to use a lot of barding). But the biggest change for druid is a major revamp of the wild order. Once again, this took a lot of data from you all; those of you who participated in forum threads about the wild order will see that many of those ideas made it into this revamp.

Fighter

Fighter is one of the classes that you've been saying is in the best shape, but that doesn't mean there aren't changes to be made. As a start of an examination on opens, we've separated stances from opens. While you can still use only one stance per round, stances are no longer opens, which means that you can stance up and follow it with an open. This change also helps monks, though they have fewer opens.

Monk

Speaking of monks, at your suggestion, we've increased the power of ki strike, but we've also opened up other avenues into gaining a ki pool. Want some huge mobility and defense rather than an offensive boost? Try Ki Rush!

Paladin

This is a biggie. The numbers are in, and you've made it clear that we should change the name of this class so that it can handle champions of deities of all alignments, and have said that you want the lawful good version to keep the name "paladin." We haven't changed the class name just yet, but I want to make it very clear to everyone who wants the "paladin" name to remain on lawful good that this is only temporary for the purpose of making the update manageable—we're not going to make you all go through your playtest books and change the name of the class every time it comes up; we'll handle that for you in the final book! The basic deal is that we've left the lawful good option—the defender—and also added the redeemer and the liberator, who swap out the last two edicts from each of their codes for some particularly neutral good and chaotic good edicts (instead of the lawful good edicts to obey authority and act honorably). Each version keeps lay on hands, but the three variants have different reactions, with the lawful good defender retaining Retributive Strike. Speaking of which, we've revamped Retributive Strike, allowing you to protect your ally within 15 feet even if you can't reach them, and we've added a 1st-level class feat to let you use Step or ranged weapons to counterattack on behalf of an ally within that range. There's a bunch more feats supporting the new paladin versions too. Lastly, everyone now gets the lay on hands upgrade that was in Hospice Knight for free, so that feat is no longer with us.

Ranger

Everyone's presented significant analysis on the pros and cons of Hunt Target toward various play styles, so we've made some changes to give you more flexibility, while also making Hunt Target less complicated at its baseline. Essentially, you choose what kind of ranger you want to be, either making a flurry of attacks at your target, making fewer but more damaging attacks against the target, or gaining advantages on a huge number of skills against the target. Also, you can use Hunt Target in exploration mode while tracking the target and have it ready ahead of time!

Rogue

You've responded extremely positively to the three choices for rogue's technique, so much so that we feel comfortable expanding them out. Now each rogue's technique has a few technique-specific feats!

Sorcerer

We've added the diabolic bloodline into the mix for all your infernal needs. Additionally, we're expanding the role of the sorcerer's 10th level feats (which currently include only the 10th-level bloodline power feat) by adding a feat that makes all your bloodline spells spontaneously heightened all the time.

Wizard

Wizard is an enigma, ranked high for power among the classes but the only spellcaster ranked as uninteresting; the other four spellcasters top the chart of most interesting, followed by alchemist, while the wizard is several classes down. We've decided to double down on the wizard's role as the consummate flexible prepared spellcaster, basically, the character who can think ahead and turn their ability to prepare and adjust for the situation into a major strength. How? Well for starters, everyone has been loving the Quick Preparation feat, to such an extent that we decided to just give it to wizards for free! Secondly, at higher levels, we're adding some preparation flexibility across your spell levels, allowing you to pull tricks like using up two of your 5th-level spell slots to prepare a 7th-level spell.

So what do you think? Let us know how these new adjustments have been playing out as you finish off Doomsday Dawn and save Golarion, or as you run any other playtest games. The playtest will still be open through the end of the year, so don't worry if you haven't been keeping pace. See you Thursday for the Twitch stream of "When the Stars Go Dark!"

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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1 person marked this as a favorite.

Updating the rulebook to reflect updates would take a lot of time that is better spent on more or less anything else.

I mean, there's a reason they only update rulebooks they are selling with errata when there's a new print edition- formatting PDFs is a big job.


Emn1ty wrote:
I'm wondering why none of the class changes appear in the PDF? Am I missing something? Are these summaries not officially a change or is there somewhere else I download the full details?

The changes are in the update-pdf.

Or do you mean the original rulebook pdf? That's not gonna be updated. Would be too much work because the changes would screw up the layout.


Elleth wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?
I mean I think I'm fine with annoying everybody else with "whoosh", "nyoom", or "hyperdrive, engage"

Right on, I'll go with my patented kiai shout, or maybe Miss Piggy's "Hi-yah!".


Emn1ty wrote:
I'm wondering why none of the class changes appear in the PDF? Am I missing something? Are these summaries not officially a change or is there somewhere else I download the full details?

They're in the 1.6 document. The order in which stuff is listed is a bit special, and you'll have to scroll down through the new alchemical items and the heritage changes to get to the 1.6 class changes.


Blave wrote:
Emn1ty wrote:
I'm wondering why none of the class changes appear in the PDF? Am I missing something? Are these summaries not officially a change or is there somewhere else I download the full details?

Tha changes are in the update-pdf.

Or do you mean the original rulebook pdf? That's not gonna be updated. Would be too much work because the changes would screw up the layout.

Downloaded the update PDF, the only thing I see under 1.6 are the "Hands and Casting" section, and the "New Alchemical Items" section.

[edit] Ok... it's inconsistently been buried in prior update sections. Nevermind.


Emn1ty wrote:
Blave wrote:
Emn1ty wrote:
I'm wondering why none of the class changes appear in the PDF? Am I missing something? Are these summaries not officially a change or is there somewhere else I download the full details?

Tha changes are in the update-pdf.

Or do you mean the original rulebook pdf? That's not gonna be updated. Would be too much work because the changes would screw up the layout.

Downloaded the update PDF, the only thing I see under 1.6 are the "Hands and Casting" section, and the "New Alchemical Items" section.

[edit] Ok... it's inconsistently been buried in prior update sections. Nevermind.

Yeah, no idea why they put it down there.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
MaxAstro wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, we were hoping Quick Prep would make the wizard a little more approachable for less experienced players while giving something else fun but not too intimidating to do during a break while treat wounds and repair are going on (there isn't always a new item to identify or the like).
I am also a huge, huge fan of the "standardized post-combat 10 minute rest", so anything that supports that paradigm is a win in my book. :)

The "lets take a moment for a hot cup of tea" break works pretty well in Starfinder and I personally would not mind the inclusion if Resolve and Stamina into Pathfinder but I am aware that some people hate it.


The Archive wrote:


Downloaded the update PDF, the only thing I see under 1.6 are the "Hands and Casting" section, and the "New Alchemical Items" section.

[edit] Ok... it's inconsistently been buried in prior update sections. Nevermind.

Yeah, no idea why they put it down there.

I have to assume it was an error.. I had to Ctrl C for alchemist to find it. I assume it had to do with copy past and auto sort of their database system.

I can't see another reason why 1.6 is fractured into different spots.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Condensed summary of changes, pretty much everything is positive here. I think they should have gone a little bit further with Sorcerer Heightening, but I seriously don't get all of the hate that Wizards have been getting.

Being able to swap out a prepared spell over a 10 minute period is nowhere near as flexible as a spontaneous caster, at least not until you're dealing with a very specific challenge that allows you 10+ minutes to redo a spell slot.

Barbarian Rage was also changed in a very strange way. I think the big issue that Barbarians had was not that they didn't enjoy the predictability of rage. It was that they didn't like the rage cycling. Especially not something on a 3 round timer.

I'd suggest the following.

- Allow Sorcerer's to Spontaneously Heighten all of their Bloodline Spells at level one without having to take a feat to do it.
- Give Sorcerer's a feat to expand their Spontaneous Heightening to an additional 2 spells in a similar way that Bard does.
- Change Barbarian Rage to last a number of rounds equal to 3 + Con Modifier.
- Offer Barbarians feats to control their rage or to drop out of their rage early.

All in all though, this was set of really amazing changes!


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I think Quick Preparation is a good move overall. For folk who think it's broken something, it's worth remembering it was already in the game and Wizards were already taking it at 4th, so this is more gaining a feat than gaining a power.

The idea of a Wizard who can sit down (out of combat) and find the right spell for the job is thematically a good one, certainly moreso than having to stick a pin in your spell list in the morning and hope you made the right choices. "Yes, I do have a vast repertiore of spells, and I do know how to cast a floating disc, but not until tomorrow morning, sorry!"

Beats carrying around a backpack full of utility scrolls which did the same job.

I think a few posters have already pointed out the problem isn't Wizards, it's more that Sorcerors need something to give them more of a niche, they do feel a bit flat right now.

I love that Sorcs can choose multiple spell lists, but it's a thing that seems to go away at character creation. Perhaps opening them up to more spell choices would be the way to give them a strong and distinct flavour?

Either 1 of their spells per level known from any spell list, or perhaps +CHA of their total known spells from any spell list would give them a very nice versatility that other classes couldn't replicate, and make Sorc players feel like they had something to offer?

I also think that they should relax the Sorc heightening powers. Given their main theme is 'natural fountain of magical power', the ability to heighten more spells doesn't feel like it would break the class, and once again, it would give it some variability.

Overall, I liked the update. Not sure how Alchemy multiclass works with the new infused reagents though. Half what standard Alchemists get?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Emn1ty wrote:
I'm wondering why none of the class changes appear in the PDF? Am I missing something? Are these summaries not officially a change or is there somewhere else I download the full details?

the 'Download Rulebook Updates' link in the post has everything to date in it.

Dark Archive

10 people marked this as a favorite.

With regards to Quick Preparation, I would much prefer if Wizards kept it and Sorcerers got something neat too (I particularly like the idea of swapping Spontaneous Heightening spells in 10 minutes).

Personally if the problem is something the party can take time to solve I think the Wizard should be at an advantage, but if it's something that needs to be done Right Now (like "The Fighter just got pushed off a cliff" or "the party has triggered a trap and now the room is filling with water / gas") then Quick Prep isn't going to be useful and the standard combat spells won't cut it. We really are missing a lot of non-combat utility spells at the moment, though.


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I've had a lot of respect to Paizo, and for Pathfinder: I came because it wasn't 4E, and I stayed for the APs.

But if the conclusion y'all arrived at from the playtest is that parties need LESS access to healing (nerfing cleric channel energy?!) then I really don't know what to say.


A couple of questions.

Is there going to be an update to the multiclass archetypes to go with the updated classes? Some, like alchemist, do not work anymore without fiddling a bit. Or is it OK to guess on what the intended changes would be on them?

Second, on page 13 it mentions bards getting free cantrips based on their muses, but the only free spells I see for them are first level spells. Summon Monster, Soothe, and True Strike. Did i miss something somewhere? Or is this a mistake?


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

When you don't know what to say, it's usually best to say nothing.


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Cognita wrote:
But if the conclusion y'all arrived at from the playtest is that parties need LESS access to healing (nerfing cleric channel energy?!) then I really don't know what to say.

It's not that parties need less access to healing...it's that the Cleric was too good at healing. This update also contains healing buffs for Paladin, Druid, and Alchemist. Not locking dedicated healers into a single class is a good move.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Tried to download this morning. Access is still denied.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Just a thought as I'm reading this:
Greater Field Discovery for Poisoner seems like a level one ability that you would just forget about. You can apply a poison to your hand if you don't have a weapon.
- Why would you not have a weapon at level 13? I get that it allows a touch attack, but you're giving up weapon damage for that and you lose out on the accuracy of a weapon.
- This can reasonably be accomplished by wearing a gauntlet or even a thick glove.

I'd suggest allowing drawing and applying a poison with the same action, or allowing a poison to work for multiple attacks, or something like that.


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Personally I think poison needs to stop being wasted on a miss before. Any other big changes to the poisoner. At the very least, that should. Be a poisoner ability, but it should really just be the general rule. Using poisons is more dangerous and probably more expensive than bombs.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Really happy to see wild-shape Druid getting a boost across the board, even if you're a different order!

Also, love the different feels of the Paladin reactions.


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poisons not being wasted on a miss should be baseline for everyone.

it makes no sense to have something doing absolutely nothing both on a miss AND on a save. It drops success rate to below 30% (around 20-25 depending on level) while still wasting something that's about equal to a full spell slot.

Poisoner's 13th level ability should be something to up the DC of the poisons akin to expert/master/legendary spellcasting proficiency because monster saves from this point and on ASSUME those increases and that leaves poison DCs in the dust

Liberty's Edge

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Cognita wrote:

I've had a lot of respect to Paizo, and for Pathfinder: I came because it wasn't 4E, and I stayed for the APs.

But if the conclusion y'all arrived at from the playtest is that parties need LESS access to healing (nerfing cleric channel energy?!) then I really don't know what to say.

As others note it's more that they have an overabundance of it as compared to everyone else. I've literally never seen a Cleric prepare more than one or two low level healing spells. Channel just does it all. Always.

And that was true even before you could get unlimited out of combat healing via Treat Wounds (which you can now).

Now, it can definitely be argued that they should be powered up elsewhere (better Domain Powers leap to mind, along with improvements to the kinda weak Divine Spell List), but the healing was a bit excessive.

Personally, I think they took it a tad far, and it should be 1 + Cha rather than the current 0 + Cha, but 3 + Cha was definitely too much.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vic Ferrari wrote:

Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?

Retributive Strike seems more like a reactionary aura, than a strike. I would prefer some sort of permanent aura deal, and a separate gnarly strike reaction, as options.

Smite Evil comes online too late.

The concealment is only during the movement. It's basically you're moving so fast it's hard to pick out your form so attacks of opportunity have chances of failing. It's actually amazing and fits perfectly with a hit and run monk build I've been thinking up.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Cognita wrote:

I've had a lot of respect to Paizo, and for Pathfinder: I came because it wasn't 4E, and I stayed for the APs.

But if the conclusion y'all arrived at from the playtest is that parties need LESS access to healing (nerfing cleric channel energy?!) then I really don't know what to say.

As others note it's more that they have an overabundance of it as compared to everyone else. I've literally never seen a Cleric prepare more than one or two low level healing spells. Channel just does it all. Always.

And that was true even before you could get unlimited out of combat healing via Treat Wounds (which you can now).

Now, it can definitely be argued that they should be powered up elsewhere (better Domain Powers leap to mind, along with improvements to the kinda weak Divine Spell List), but the healing was a bit excessive.

Personally, I think they took it a tad far, and it should be 1 + Cha rather than the current 0 + Cha, but 3 + Cha was definitely too much.

we dont need CODzilla again. the class was perfect the way it was. it a class for healing, if you dont want to heal dont play a cleric. Codzilla was rightfully banished and it needs to stay banished. the spell list fits 100% with the goal of the class. it doenst need any changes.


Dire Ursus wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:

Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?

Retributive Strike seems more like a reactionary aura, than a strike. I would prefer some sort of permanent aura deal, and a separate gnarly strike reaction, as options.

Smite Evil comes online too late.

The concealment is only during the movement. It's basically you're moving so fast it's hard to pick out your form so attacks of opportunity have chances of failing. It's actually amazing and fits perfectly with a hit and run monk build I've been thinking up.

Yes, I realise all of that and also find it cool (I have a monk build that is all about movement: Wind Step, Wall Run, Winding Path, etc), just a bit odd that you have to make noise in order to do it.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dire Ursus wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:

Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?

Retributive Strike seems more like a reactionary aura, than a strike. I would prefer some sort of permanent aura deal, and a separate gnarly strike reaction, as options.

Smite Evil comes online too late.

The concealment is only during the movement. It's basically you're moving so fast it's hard to pick out your form so attacks of opportunity have chances of failing. It's actually amazing and fits perfectly with a hit and run monk build I've been thinking up.

Actually, no. It lasts until the start of the next turn. Thematically, it's still because you're moving so fast, but it's much better mechanically.

Liberty's Edge

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ikarinokami wrote:
we dont need CODzilla again.

Nobody wants that, I agree. I don't think we're in any danger of that happening, however.

I'm not suggesting vastly powering them up, I'm suggesting a bit of redistribution. What's desirable is parity of Class power levels, not Cleric being brokenly good at one thing and bad at everything else.

ikarinokami wrote:
the class was perfect the way it was.

No, it wasn't. It was too good at healing, and not good enough at several other things.

ikarinokami wrote:
it a class for healing, if you dont want to heal dont play a cleric.

Uh...no. It's the Class for being a devotee of a particular God empowered by your deity. Having only healing as its role would a failure both thematically and mechanically.

ikarinokami wrote:
Codzilla was rightfully banished and it needs to stay banished. the spell list fits 100% with the goal of the class. it doenst need any changes.

There are several issues with this, starting with Sorcerer. If the spell lists aren't equal, Sorcerer's choice of spell lists becomes quite bad and weird. Additionally, thematically, only the Occult list should maybe be better at buffing than the Divine list, and nothing should really be better at several other areas (like summoning).

They should definitively not be the best in several other areas (being bad at blasting is perfectly reasonable, for example), but healing alone is not enough.

Silver Crusade

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Blave wrote:

I have no idea how the Wizard can be (one of) the most powerful class(es). Outside of a 15-minute adventuring day, that is.

The one VERY strong impression I get is that a considerable portion of the Paizo staff think that a 15 minute adventuring day is a GOOD thing.

I've seen them asked whether a very short day is a feature or a bug several times but I've never seen them answer it.

And all sorts of changes they've made or are making encourage short adventuring days. Some they've pulled back on after lots of outrage (Resonance, heal being useful in short rests) but they still seem to be doing it consistently (the new Spell Point suggestion, cutting channels back to Cha a day, etc).

I have no idea if this is an explicit (albeit unstated) design goal (Make Adventurers HAVE to rest) or just an unconscious bias because it is THEIR playing style) but I keep seeing evidence of this (of course, there may be lots of confirmation bias in my seeing that :-().

On the off chance that Paizo will reply THIS time I'll explicitly ask (again)

Paizo - Is a very short adventuring day (2 or maybe 3 combat encounters a day) a feature or a bug? Is this the intended playing style?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Elleth wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?
I mean I think I'm fine with annoying everybody else with "whoosh", "nyoom", or "hyperdrive, engage"

im going to have a phone soundboard with link's rolling shouts from zelda, personally.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, we were hoping Quick Prep would make the wizard a little more approachable for less experienced players while giving something else fun but not too intimidating to do during a break while treat wounds and repair are going on (there isn't always a new item to identify or the like). Given it was an extremely popular feat choice already,the difference is that the ability is something from the start (and easier for the new player to learn the wizard that way rather than pick it up later on) and it frees up a level 4 feat for something else. Now if people wanted us to abolish or limit Quick Preparation altogether, we hadn't realized that before. Jason has mentioned a potential survey just about updates, so that's something we can ask a broader group to see how many agree.

I am just really confused at how the Wizard changes and the Cleric changes happened at the same time. Wizards already had more spells per day, a better spell list, and more access to getting spells on the fly via Arcane Bond.

That somehow led to Wizards getting more flexibility while Clerics got Channel effectively cut in half if you're doing the sensible thing and starting with 16 CHA (and far, far worse if you're not), while not gaining any flexibility at all to deal with suddenly having so much less on demand healing. How do you make up for that, except by preparing Heal in more slots and having even fewer spells for other stuff? Or effectively making the Healing Domain advanced power feat mandatory (it was already one of the few worth taking) and creating the same problem you just tried to solve on Wizards?

I honestly don't understand how these things go together. Rebalancing Clerics away from Channel towards the other class powers would have made sense, but that isn't what happened. I get that Emblazon Symbol's removal was meant to be helpful, but a weird side effect of it is that it's now impossible to cast the AoE Heal without a free hand, whereas before it was possible... so as a healer that's also a nerf.

I dunno. This is the first update in the entire playtest that I've looked at and not seen as a clear step forward, and I'm really concerned that because people said Clerics were fine with the souped up Channel, the end result will be thinking they're also fine without it, when that was what propped up the entire class (the rest of which is not actually very good).


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One oddity I see after 1.6 is that Dwarves looking to heal are better off as Leaf Druids than Clerics. A level 1 Dwarf Cleric cannot possibly have more than 14 Charisma, which so no more than 2 channels now. A Dwarf Druid can swing a 18 Wisdom very easily, so you can cast Goodberry 4 times and you have Heal on your spell list.

One would think Torag would find this intolerable- being a tree lover is fine if a bit odd, but largely eschewing the fruits of the forge is a step too far.


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Tridus wrote:
I get that Emblazon Symbol's removal was meant to be helpful, but a weird side effect of it is that it's now impossible to cast the AoE Heal without a free hand, whereas before it was possible... so as a healer that's also a nerf.

Clerics and Druids no longer need a free hand to use Somatic components. All Clerics have Emblazon Symbol for free, basically.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:
we dont need CODzilla again.

Nobody wants that, I agree. I don't think we're in any danger of that happening, however.

I'm not suggesting vastly powering them up, I'm suggesting a bit of redistribution. What's desirable is parity of Class power levels, not Cleric being brokenly good at one thing and bad at everything else.

ikarinokami wrote:
the class was perfect the way it was.

No, it wasn't. It was too good at healing, and not good enough at several other things.

ikarinokami wrote:
it a class for healing, if you dont want to heal dont play a cleric.

Uh...no. It's the Class for being a devotee of a particular God empowered by your deity. Having only healing as its role would a failure both thematically

ikarinokami wrote:
Codzilla was rightfully banished and it needs to stay banished. the spell list fits 100% with the goal of the class. it doenst need any changes.

There are several issues with this, starting with Sorcerer. If the spell lists aren't equal, Sorcerer's choice of spell lists becomes quite bad and weird. Additionally, thematically, only the Occult list should maybe be better at buffing than the Divine list, and nothing should really be better at several other areas (like summoning).

They should definitively not be the best in several other areas (being bad at blasting is perfectly reasonable, for example), but healing alone is not enough.

This! Cleric is my favorite class from 1E because they can all be different depending on their deity. I agree with nerfing channel if it was made up with competency in other fields. What this update is going to show, is how bad cleric is in general without their OP crutch feature.

As for the nerf itself, I would have made it be "3" fixed forever uses. Or maybe leave it as it was and actually look at the mighty Heal spell itself. I wouldn't mind if the 1-action version got changed, since that's the problematic one that leads to triple heals super burst. Everything else would probably fall into place after that.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

One oddity I see after 1.6 is that Dwarves looking to heal are better off as Leaf Druids than Clerics. A level 1 Dwarf Cleric cannot possibly have more than 14 Charisma, which so no more than 2 channels now. A Dwarf Druid can swing a 18 Wisdom very easily, so you can cast Goodberry 4 times and you have Heal on your spell list.

One would think Torag would find this intolerable- being a tree lover is fine if a bit odd, but largely eschewing the fruits of the forge is a step too far.

not to mention druids have the best spell list in the game, and wild shape. oh my god how dare the cleric heal better than a druid. it has to be better at every option than the cleric.

Sovereign Court

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Hmm, quick additional opinions:

- The new Sorcerer feat that allows heightening all bloodline spells for free is going to put a lot of pressure on bloodline spell list, and the more I think about it, the more it feels like a bad solution. Some bloodlines will have multiple (H) spells when others will have none. It would be better to grant as many additionnal use of spontaneous heightening than the number of bloodline spell you currently have access to, these being fixed possibly (And give this as a class ability, not as a feat that everyone will take because it is necessary)

- Please, stop saying that wizards are only good for 15 minutes adventure day. 2E made the cantrips really good, and can now be seen as an alternative to weapons, if you burn all of your spells in one combat that is because you decided to burn everything for one combat, it's not the system's fault. Spellcasters must act in moderation and know when to unleash their spell and when not to.

- With the new Cleric having CHA usages of Channel, I'm wondering if this shouldn't be merged with their spell points... (Spells points being CHA+WIS possibly) I really liked that in one of the playtest I ran as a DM, I had a player with 10 Wisdom, and high Con/Str/Cha. He still performed nicely as a cleric since he could channel nicely, but he was a great addition to the front line at the same time.

- Some don't like the reactive Paladin, but the one I witnessed as a DM was really great. He had lots of opportunities to "save" his teammates by interupting an attack, and I think that the new version is quite nice as well. Yes he won't be able to "cancel" the ennemy attack, but giving DR is quite nice, specially with the new "within 15 feet" rule. My player really liked his paladin as well, since he felt important to the team by protecting them, while it isn't as offensive as the 1E paladin, it feels to me (and my players) that this new protector role feels great.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:

Mark, you may have seen me saying this in another thread (and I'm not the person you asked in the first place, but...):

As someone who loves wizards (my first D&D character ever was a wizard; I play martials a bit more these days but when I really want to break a campaign wizard is it): Quick Preparation is exactly what wizards needed. It felt like too much at first, but upon thinking on it, I think you guys picked exactly the right thing. It would be cool if arcane bond was unique to each wizard, but I think Quick Preparation does a lot more to make wizards more approachable in play.

That said, I think a lot of the complaints you are seeing about quick preparation don't actually have anything to do with wizards being too strong. I think it really comes down to sorcerers being too... I don't know if weak is the right word, I want to say "undirected" instead.

Sorcerers need more support for non-arcane spell lists, but I think they also need something to really make them "pop" as a class compared to wizards. You've opened up sorcerers with this cool idea of having different spell lists, and that's awesome, but any given sorcerer will only have one spell list, which means that sorcerer has to compete with the class that normally has that spell list. OR sorcerer has to have something unique enough to compete with everything else another class does outside of their spell list.

This is probably all stuff you are fully aware of, but it's basically in summation a way for me to say that I'd like to see some way for sorcerer's to cherry pick spells from other spell lists; I think that would really help their niche.

Yeah, we were hoping Quick Prep would make the wizard a little more approachable for less experienced players while giving something else fun but not too intimidating to do during a break while treat wounds and repair are going on (there isn't always a new item to identify or the like). Given it was an extremely popular feat choice already,the difference is...

For what is worth I think you made the right call with Quick Preparation.


AndIMustMask wrote:
Elleth wrote:
Vic Ferrari wrote:
Ki Rush has verbal casting, so you have to make noise as you move to gain concealment?
I mean I think I'm fine with annoying everybody else with "whoosh", "nyoom", or "hyperdrive, engage"
im going to have a phone soundboard with link's rolling shouts from zelda, personally.

Gotta go fast!

Dark Archive

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Thebazilly wrote:
Tridus wrote:
I get that Emblazon Symbol's removal was meant to be helpful, but a weird side effect of it is that it's now impossible to cast the AoE Heal without a free hand, whereas before it was possible... so as a healer that's also a nerf.
Clerics and Druids no longer need a free hand to use Somatic components. All Clerics have Emblazon Symbol for free, basically.

It's actually even better than that - somatic casting actions no longer require a free hand, period. The Special sections that were removed allowed the Cleric and Druid specifically to bypass the free hand requirement while holding a Divine or Primal focus, but now the free hand requirement simply doesn't exist anymore. It's a huge boon for anyone who used spells, powers, or cantrips.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Can I add in another "yes please" for Cleric domain powers being more meaningful?

I'm still in the boat of wanting Clerics to be mostly defined as a class by their domain powers. They are supposed to be divinely empowered priests, not just healers who happen to have a couple other tricks.


Thebazilly wrote:
Tridus wrote:
I get that Emblazon Symbol's removal was meant to be helpful, but a weird side effect of it is that it's now impossible to cast the AoE Heal without a free hand, whereas before it was possible... so as a healer that's also a nerf.
Clerics and Druids no longer need a free hand to use Somatic components. All Clerics have Emblazon Symbol for free, basically.

But it doesn't, because Emblazon Symbol let you replace your religious symbol (the Material component in three action Heal) with the emblazoned item.

You can't do that anymore. You don't have to worry about the Somatic component (which you could already avoid if you were holding a staff), but there's no way around the Material component anymore.

The new version works fine right up until you hit a Material component, at which point you need a free hand. And since AoE Heal is three actions, you don't have the actions to free up a hand and cast it in the same turn.

This was a well intentioned change, but it just made it even wonkier than it was. Because now it's "you can have stuff in both hands just fine unless you ever might want to cast AoE Heal", which sticks out like a sore thumb for how bizarre it is.


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MaxAstro wrote:

Can I add in another "yes please" for Cleric domain powers being more meaningful?

I'm still in the boat of wanting Clerics to be mostly defined as a class by their domain powers. They are supposed to be divinely empowered priests, not just healers who happen to have a couple other tricks.

It feels like Sorcerers and Clerics are in the same boat regarding class powers needing to be flashier, more interesting, more build defining, or just more useful.


Thebazilly wrote:
Tridus wrote:
I get that Emblazon Symbol's removal was meant to be helpful, but a weird side effect of it is that it's now impossible to cast the AoE Heal without a free hand, whereas before it was possible... so as a healer that's also a nerf.
Clerics and Druids no longer need a free hand to use Somatic components. All Clerics have Emblazon Symbol for free, basically.

Emblazon Symbol removed the need for material components as well. Now nothing does that. If you have your hands full you have to do a weird 3 turn shuffle of items to 3 action channel.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
It feels like Sorcerers and Clerics are in the same boat regarding class powers needing to be flashier, more interesting, more build defining, or just more useful.

Sigh. I wish that the Dwarf Ancestry had some kind of Crafting boost so they could be excellent Chirurgeons. It makes me miss the "Racial Archetypes" from Pathfinder First Edition - something like Dwarf Chirurgeons brew Ale of Life instead of Elixirs of Life.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Tridus wrote:
The new version works fine right up until you hit a Material component, at which point you need a free hand. And since AoE Heal is three actions, you don't have the actions to free up a hand and cast it in the same turn.

I keep seeing people making this mistake, and I understand the confusion, but I am getting tired of pointing it out. :P

Releasing your grip from an object is not an action. Only increasing your grip is an action. So at the very least, a cleric with a two handed weapon has no problem; they can release a hand for free, then cast, then regrip on their next turn if they need to.

Sword and board clerics DO have this problem, though, which is a bit problematic because that is the most iconic cleric.

Although there is a silly workaround: You know those funny wrist-grips that Nintendo controllers have? Get one of those for your sword. Free action to drop sword, cast AoE heal, single action to grab your sword again next round. :P


MaxAstro wrote:
Tridus wrote:
The new version works fine right up until you hit a Material component, at which point you need a free hand. And since AoE Heal is three actions, you don't have the actions to free up a hand and cast it in the same turn.

I keep seeing people making this mistake, and I understand the confusion, but I am getting tired of pointing it out. :P

Releasing your grip from an object is not an action. Only increasing your grip is an action. So at the very least, a cleric with a two handed weapon has no problem; they can release a hand for free, then cast, then regrip on their next turn if they need to.

Sword and board clerics DO have this problem, though, which is a bit problematic because that is the most iconic cleric.

Although there is a silly workaround: You know those funny wrist-grips that Nintendo controllers have? Get one of those for your sword. Free action to drop sword, cast AoE heal, single action to grab your sword again next round. :P

No, letting go of the sword only fixes the old issue with the Somantic casting.

Without Emblazon Symbol you let go and then you have to get out your holy symbol and then wait a turn because it takes an action to get the holy symbol out, then 3 action, then next turn spend an action putting the holy symbol away and an action adjusting your grip.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Wrong again. The Material Casting action specifically includes "retrieve and manipulate" the material component or spell focus. You can even stow it again as part of the same action.


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And as before... Emblazoning a symbol shouldn't even be a feat. It should just be a +gp modifier to the cost of a holy symbol that you then apply to a weapon or shield or whatever. At most it should be a ritual.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I'm a little later to party than I prefer, but that's just the way it is sometimes.

So, the first thing is the change to Somatic Components. Great change. As someone pointed out in another thread, this still leaves sword-and-board clerics with the issue of Material Components, but I think this can be easily fixed by adding "emblazon holy symbol" functionality to items. There's no reason a weapon or shield can't also count as a holy symbol with a bit of ornamentation, and that's something I'd like to see added. Alternately, just make the deity's favored weapon count as a symbol by default.

I'm skipping a few classes I don't have a lot of experience with.

Barbarian: Random rage duration feels terribly random. It feels like the kind of thing that should be a totemic option or a feat instead of the baseline. It feels much less like an "out of control" rage and more like "rage ED". "Does your rage end too quickly? Your doctor may be able to help."

Bard: These don't feel like they're very significant as changes. The bard still lacks a "healer" option, which is something I'd like to see.

Cleric: See the above comments on Material Components and sword+board clerics. Overall, I feel like the channel nerf was too hard. Rolling it back a little and boosting other healers up a bit would be preferable.

Druid: Leaf druids are still terrible. The problem with goodberry is less the single-berry healing and more the terrible throughput. The heighten effect gives more berries, which means a casting at level 5 would create 5 berries that each heal 1d6+mod now. In-combat, that's a very rarely useful thing (especially since, as written, you can't force-feed one to someone that's down and dying). Out of combat, it's completely eclipsed by Treat Wounds. As it stands now, this is an ability that should just be standard to all druids and give the leaf druids something better as their base power. I would kind of like all druids getting access to it, anyway.

Wild druids are better than they were... but there are still some real issues. You still can't make a "bear druid" that turns into a bear and never has another form very easily. I would also like some clarification on how Wild Morph interacts with other forms. If you can gain the wild morph benefits while also being, say, an elemental, that would patch some of the class's issues. I really don't like the need for the class to use the Vestments item as a patch for poor scaling of forms and think that doing that via a feat or baseline class feature would just be better.

Monk: These changes are all good.

Paladin: Generally positive (some of it very positive), but I am BEGGING YOU to not leave a grossly ambiguous statement like "such as murder" in the code. By its very nature, Pathfinder involves a lot of killing things, and a nebulous word like "murder" is going to cause confusion and lead to really different interpretations that can make or break a class.

Sorcerer: I feel like clerics got hit too hard in their Channel Energy, but the Divine feat equivalent now feels more in line. I'd really like both to be buffed, though.


MaxAstro wrote:
Wrong again. The Material Casting action specifically includes "retrieve and manipulate" the material component or spell focus. You can even stow it again as part of the same action.

Then why do they specify:

"Because you’re a cleric, you can usually hold a divine focus (such as a religious symbol or a religious text) as part of your Material Casting and Somatic Casting actions, so you usually don’t need spell components or another hand free"

If you can already get it out with a free hand, why would it mention the need to hold it?

And the description of holy symbol says:

"A religious symbol must be held in one hand to use it."

Why does it state that (and nothing similar for Material component pouch) if you're not intended to actually be holding it?

And it all reads very similarly to the way bards use their instruments as material components. You aren't telling me that they can pull, play, and stow their lute as part of a single action are you?

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