Hye, sorry I've not dropped in for a bit. Finals are done but I went through some personal stuff that made it tough to post something. Honestly, I'm still going through it but it's not as it was. I am still having some trouble concentrating, but I'll do what I can.
Here's my mechanics for review for Manius II Battori:
Spoiler:
Manius Battori II
Male Pactborn Inquisitor Dispater(Sanctified Slayer) 8
LE medium humanoid/outsider (human, native)
Str 12, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10
Base Attack +6, CMB +7, CMD 22
AC 1, Touch 1, Flat-footed 1
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +11
HP 64 (8d8)
Speed 30ft
Init +10
Traits: Birthmark (Birthmark acts as Holy Symbol, +2 to save vs charm/compulsion), Devil Pact(+1 to Diplomacy with Devils, +1 to Intimidate with other Evil Outsiders)(Based on Dragon Pact), Unearth Secrets (+2 to Sense Motive if trying to determine target's hidden vice, dark impulse, or other hidden desire)
Hellbent I like, but the intention was that the race would also be usable for those aligned with Abaddon or the Abyss with slight adjustments.
Thought about it, but alas my heart is set on our gracious queen. Though I might pull a "love her and leave her," ruin her prospects to marry up at least.
Thanks, I'll need the luck. I'll probably pull an all-nighter tonight and then try to recover after my final tomorrow in time for the Wednesday morning one.
Yaos is correct, I've got one term paper to finish (this thing never ends, and I need to get off Wilson and onto FDR and the New Deal) and a presentation to prep and then two finals this week. Almost done though and I'll be much more available afterward.
Yaos: Feel free to take the lead on backstory until I get done with studies, I'm happy to maneuver things around.
Under Pavel's Thumb: Pavel and Manius are twins and get along well, so escaping his control wouldn't even occur to Manius. Pavel is more Machiavellian than Manius, but not much more so.
I'm thinking we have a vassal count with a son and (weak) claim to Phandros. By angling to get the count's son in charge the brother's are opening up a way into Longmarch Archduchy. The reason they are doing so is to eventually get Manius a hereditary title that would allow him to pursue Abrogail II on a more even playing field, much easier to convince her to marry a vassal duke than a vassal paraduke who has title because of his brother.
Alternately maybe the brothers have a weak claim from some distant ancestor and plan to install one of their bastards. This is less likely, too in the open for Pavel's taste, Manius happily takes refuge in audacity though.
Pavel and Yaos: Pavel looks to be in his late 20s, his wife is a human in her late 60s and was politically arranged, no one in the house would/should have any problem with the affair. Honestly it would probably be one of the less scandalous affairs the brothers have had. Between the brothers I'm planning on having five bastards, one of whom's father is definitely a Battori but the brothers and the bastard's mother don't know who. Also, there's this weird thing with Elzibeta and how she keeps losing suitors and is overly affectionate with her brothers.
Norin's Enemies in Phandros: Yeah, he probably had a few, kid didn't have dad's flair for Machiavellian politics. Vengeance is nice and might be why Yaos was brought in, but for Pavel and Manius its probably more of an excuse to move on them.
Size of House: Trim down to brothers, sister, and a few bastards? Maybe four legitimate children between the brothers? (The sister has no children, keeps poisoning suitors) The unacknowledged bastards and a few of the acknowledged ones would be good as potential enemies as they wouldn't be super happy with dear ol' dad.
The age of the twins: Only ~110 years since outbreak of the Civil War, if the pact let's you age as a Tiefling or other plane-touched then they would still be adults verging on middle age (another 30 years or so before that happens) as I was thinking they would have been 16-18 at the outbreak with their grandfather still leading the house. If you're worried about power coming with age that's why I made a point of having them consolidating within their desmesne, they are powerful but very localized in how they can use it. The big push for expansion is coming now with Abrogail II's blessing/tolerance. The time at court will have won as many enemies as friends, maybe a few people who are both. The big hook is that they're involved in Abrogail II's ascent, but they can't be favored too much as it was an assassination guised as an accident that offed the prior king. In exchange for that support they are given opportunities to expand their reach (like having one of them act as a shadow operative for the crown, perhaps?)
If that doesn't work I have a twisted little hook that would fit in perfectly with the infernal house of Battori, but it takes a decidedly grim and just wrong turn.
Spoiler:
The current Pavel, Manius, and Elzibeta are the children of the first three. And they have since murdered mom and dad(s).
Duchies and Counties: If what you're seeing is what I'm thinking then what I was going for was the Paraducal title giving him status but the county is the area his brother actually has given him as a desmesne.
Oh, and I got an A on one of my term papers. Not entirely sure how, but I'll take it. Just have to survive the final and finish one paper now.
Rough background of family for DM to read through. I'll get a twisted family tree and blurbs on the major players together later.
Background, Ducal House of Battori:
The house of Battori has long stood in the Chelish annals. Descending from a Taldan general from the early taming of the nation, their name was storied with heroes and schemers and cowards alike. By the time of Chelish independence the family was on the decline. Somehow, they managed to maintain a ducal title until the civil war, despite shrinking lands and vassals swearing to other lords as the centuries wore on.
It was the fall of Aroden that changed things for the family. Their remaining lands lay within a day's journey of Egorian within the Archduchy of the Heartlands and near to the lands of House Thrune. Seeing opportunity and hoping to save his family, Duke Battori chanced into the devil's own luck. Two generations before the family head had the great fortune to marry a third daughter of Thrune in an effort to bring the families together, and it was his grandchildren who, at the outset of war, approached Thrune as loyal vassals and kinsmen and swore themselves to the cause of the future royal house. It must be noted that at this time Thrune had not yet begun to play its hand for supremacy. Though the head of House Thrune did not appreciate the gesture, his then 14 year old daughter Abrogail was delighted by the twin brothers who had come into her court that day.
These brothers, the future Duke Pavel and Paraduke Manius, charmed the young lady and fought for her at every turn, Pavel on the field and Manius in the shadows. It is unknown who joined with Hell first, Abrogail or the brothers Battori, but by the end of the war the brothers showed marks of favor and patronage from Infernal Archdukes. Rewarded after the war with a restoration of many of their lands and vassals the family found itself ascending, profiting at the expense of less loyal vassals of Thrune. Since the civil war the scions of the house have focused on consolidating their power. Pavel honored his brother with the title of Paraduke and control of a county of his own. Sisters, and later daughters, were married off to cement relations. And, most importantly, the brothers have made themselves fixtures in the Imperial court.
Over the years the brothers, as well as their youngest sister, have all been noted to age slowly, marking their service to Hell. The nature of their pacts has become evident, Manius does not hide his affiliation with Dispater and Pavel is rumored to serve Mephistopheles. The sister, Elzibeta, is whispered to be bound to Belial. The brothers are rumored to have been involved in the death of His Majestor Infrexus and the installation of Abrogail II and maneuvering to get even closer to the throne. There have even been disturbing allegations concerning the carnal tastes of the Pactborn of the family and more than a dozen bastards have been acknowledged.
Almost all of the rumors are true. The common tale of who the Pactborn in Battori serve is completely true. The maneuvering for the throne is not inaccurate but not entirely truthful, Manius in fulfilling the dictates of Dispater has decided to pursue the courtly love of his queen. The rumors of flagrant hedonism are slightly off base, neither brother has lain with Elzibeta, though the sheer number of bastards between the two of them gives even the devils of the court pause.
What keeps the family off the gallows? Two factors, they rule well and they serve better. The Battori have served Thrune unfailing through multiple monarchs now, Manius has been an active agent of the crown twice, and Pavel has kindled a twisted friendship with a few of the Infernal advisers to the crown. In their domain they are well regarded by freeborn and slaves, they are deliberately more lenient on slaves (especially slips) than neighboring domains, and they often grant lesser punishments for crimes than strictly called for by Chelish law. Also, there a few living in Battori lands who remember another ruler. The blessing of long lives and leniency has helped to bind men to the Pactborn brothers.
I think it's more that we're still trying to find our groove and sometimes don't have anything to say that would move the story along. Also, for the students and educators among us it's finals time (2 big essays left on my end).
Wilson was absolutely a bigot. Absolutely a racist. Absolutely wouldn't have won in '12 without TR going after Taft. ....But I think he was a great president. He accomplished more domestically than TR or Taft, hey -- and he did it by working with them instead of, you know, the 'TR method.' I enjoy thinking about what could have happened internationally had he not gotten that stroke. Any opinions on Wilsonianism?....
I really like Hoover. Shame about his presidency.
Ooh, here's one you mentioned that I like to ask, if Al Smith could've actually really worked with McAdoo & Hearst, do you think they could've beaten FDR in the '32 primary?! Do you think that if the Dems threw Smith & Garner at Hoover in the General they could have won?!
On Wilsonianism: Not a huge fan personally. While I'm not an isolationist, I believe that the interventionism espoused by Wilson and taken up by later American Progressives is inherently deleterious to both the spread of freedom and our own national interests. I very much am one for ideological/economic warfare in which the free market of ideas determines the winner, I think it's more than anything what worked on the USSR and that if we stuck to it we would still be the good guys rather than the world's bully. The spread of democracy is good, just not the way they want to do it.
Smith: He might have been able to take FDR but he had spent a lot of political capital four years prior where FDR had spent the time gaining strength. FDR "recovering" from polio, his gubernatorial strength and especially the staff he gathered, and then the Roosevelt name counted for a lot. Smith's problem would have been the South, Cactus Jack might have gotten him Texas but the remaining states would have been a fight and the Catholic Hunkeys in the industrial heartland might have been a task too much even with the labor priests pushing for the Dems. Smith might have been the one man the Dems could run in '32 that would lose to Hoover.
1 paper done *fist pumps* couple more to go but this was the one I was worried about.
Yaos: Works for me, still finishing details but I'll have at least one brother who has the actual duchy title, I'm going to go for a lesser, non-hereditary title in the same domain to act as his agent trying to stir up trouble and push our fiendish agenda. If you would rather not be married to the duke, a third brother would be easily doable or one of the twin brothers' children (I plan on having two bastards and my brother having several legitimate children as well as some acknowledged bastards). It going to be a big, screwed up, diabolist family.
Note: I plan on my character and his brother being rather old, they're aging slowly due to their pacts with Hell and have been around since the civil war.
The Russian minor was something I picked up in case I make a play for a job in the State Department, I've got a few connections and am working on getting a few teaching jobs overseas that would get me plugged in. It also helps me read my Lenin without worrying about finding a good translation.
History is my main thing and while it's not as shop-able as a STEM degree it's reasonably competitive.
Psychology was my first degree that I got 6 years ago and did serve me in securing work in the medical field, but after a few years of that I decided it just wasn't for me. Though I did learn that the local school district does offer Psychology courses in high school when I talked with the head of one of the high school's social studies departments. If I end up staying in town they are hiring. The issue with that plan is the girl I'm interested in is moving to another state when she graduates and I think I might be falling for her... There are worse problems to have though.
PM not really necessary unless the others don't want to see it. I don't mind talking about it, gets my mind of this paper for a little bit and let's me rearrange my thoughts.
Wilson was a racist bigot who is only loved because he bent over backwards for labor (the only way he could get elected) and his idealism in trying to get the League of Nations established. The only reason he was elected is because Teddy split the Republican vote and he only got reelected because he "kept us out of the war," people really should have noted the past tense nature of that campaign slogan. For any indication of the quality of the man, he's Nixon's favorite president.
The best president in the era would probably be FDR, though there is an argument that can (and has) been made that his actions increased the length of the Depression. I'm not sure where I fall on that argument, both sides have some good points. His genius was the coalition building he did for the Democratic Party, something that Al Smith (1928 Democratic candidate) never could because he was unable to get the Southern whites on his side because they wouldn't vote for an Irish Catholic. Note: Reagan's favorite president. there's a whole story there but essentially a well connected historian was writing about FDR and managed to interview all the surviving presidents at the time about the man, (this was the early 80's) Reagan was the only one who spoke glowingly about him. In fact, conservative Reagan did very little about the New Deal, dismantling Johnson's Great Society on the other hand was fair game.
The worst is hard to pick. I'm leaning toward Hoover but he kind of gets a bum wrap due to the 1929 stock market crash. His actions in the immediate aftermath are thought to have been either too much or too little, he did just enough to make it worse. One of his issues is he didn't really know how to play politics, the first election he ran in was the presidential one. He came up as one of these cosmopolitan intellectuals and was plugged into the bureaucracy and because he was Republican pretty much walked into the White House.
"Early 20th Century political thought" is the nice way of saying I study the lead up to World War I and Communism and Fascism. Things like French Revanchism, the interlocking economies that had people thinking no-one would go to war, and "the stab in the back," as well of the influence of Marx and a lot of interrelated stuff. The nature of mass movements is something of a fascination as well, Eric Hoffer has been a strong influence. I've been rounding out by picking up a class on Revolutionary Europe up through the Italian and German Unifications which is where my prior knowledge picks up.
I have a few areas that I like: Sengoku Jidai Japan, Three Kingdoms China, early 20th Century political thought, America from 1865-1945, and the late Roman Republic. I wouldn't of thought it would happen when I started but I'm becoming something of an expert on Fascism and Leninism/Stalinism.
History BA with a teaching certification and Russian language minor. I already have a BS in Psychology with an English minor but that didn't help my career prospects much.
Yeah, I was a bit unsure on skilled but figured it was worth trying. The idea of the patron is it's a package deal, each one is worth 7 RP but is some combination of lesser abilities.
I thought it was the less expensive abilities were at x1.5 cost on multiple ability items?
EDIT: Yup, I was right. third entry on the table Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values under category "special." Additional abilities are "Multiply lower item cost by 1.5."
Now that race is approved I'll start hammering out crunch and refining backstory. I hope I'll get it posted sometime this weekend but I have another 8 pages to knock out for an essay due Monday and I'm pulling a 12 hour overnight shift tomorrow.
In the interests of progress and not driving myself insane writing academic papers:
The Pactborn (not sold on the name)
Pactborn are not born, they are made. Forged when humans and demi-humans strike deals with the powers of Hell, the Abyss, or Abaddon, they are the corrupted souls chosen by the greatest evils in the Great Beyond. While they physically resemble members of their former race, these fiends cloaked in mortal flesh often have small tells that indicate their true natures, pupils that flash red in darkness, an otherworldly grace, or a birthmark shaped like an unholy symbol. Within Cheliax, Inferal Pactborn are most often represented among the nobility and social climbers. In the Worldwound Abyssal Pactborn are more heavily represented, those cultists with special promise sometimes managing to acquire the twisted patronage of a demon lord.
A Pactborn can only be made by a mortal willingly selling their soul to a fiendish power and being instilled with the essence of the lower planes. Among the devils it is the Archdevils who have sufficient power to empower mortal flesh, in the Abyss the Demon Lords, and in Abaddon the Four Horsemen hold sway.
Type: Outsider(native) and Humanoid(human) (3 RP) Using the Tiefling alt-trait as my justification, if I flesh this race out I plan on having a fully outsider version as an alternate trait
Size: Medium
Speed: Normal
Ability Score Modifier: Standard, modifiers are dependent on fiendish patron If I delve deeper, I'll have each one set up
Language: Pactborn begin play speaking Common. Pactborn with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc. 9 options rather than 7 but Abyssal and Infernal are borderline racial languages, Tiefling is my precedent, and would offer trait to begin speaking either Abyssal or Infernal as a starting language
Racial Traits:
Defense:
Fiendish Resistance (3 RP)
Benefit: Pactborn gain cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
Senses:
Darkvision: Pactborn can see perfectly in the dark for up to 60 feet.(0 RP)
Other Racial Traits:
Fiendish Patron: Pactborn must select a Fiendish Patron from the list of Archdevils, Demon Lords, or Four Horsemen. Each Fiendish Patron imparts different traits and powers to their followers beyond the above universal ones. (7 RP) Will have more options later but Dispater is the one I care about.
Patron: Dispater:
Dispater's Pactborn are natural rulers and leaders. As a true ruler following the Iron Duke's teachings must be skilled in diplomacy and discourse as well as the myriad talents of the court, the First King blesses those bound to him with eloquent speech and a capacity for knowledge and skill above their mortal limits.
Silver Tongued (3 RP)
Benefit: Pactborn of Dispater gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can do so up to three steps up rather than just two.
Skilled (4 RP)
Benefit: Pactborn of Dispater gain an additional skill rank at 1st level and one additional skill rank whenever they gain a level.
13 RP total
For Alternate Favored Class bonuses, racial feats, traits, or archetypes, Pactborn may choose from the options available to Tieflings or Humans. Have subtype Human and thus should be able to choose from Human options (Half Elf and Half Orc as precedent), Tiefling options are likely more fluffy
Further work would involve writing other patrons and feats for non-human pactborn. The feats would change subtype and be available as 1st level only picks and would restore some of the lost racial traits of the base race (Elves might get elven senses and weapon training back for example)
Nobility Domain: Looks like PFS gets Persuasive as a bonus feat at 8th. I had honestly forgotten to look there as I don't play PFS (Nothing run near me). Not sure I would suggest anything different, at least nothing comes to mind.
Sin: Copy. Sin Sense doesn't appear to grant a save, though if you are immune to mind-affecting you're safe. It could be argued that the DC to resist the follow up skill check is your save or that the ability is more of a self buff anyway. Indulge was actually less impressive to me at first as you have to use it before using Sin Sense, I could see it going badly if you used it on someone who had a problem with... let's say wrath. Also it allows multiple saves and is once per day. On the topic of Inquisitions, I was also looking at Conversion which might be far scarier than Sin or the Nobility Domain in my hands.
Sanctified Slayer: Thanks. I think the main balancing point is that Studied Target scales slower than Judgment and has very specific functions. It's more generally useful as it gives skill bonuses outside of combat and can be used throughout the day, but the thought of Fast Healing or Energy Resistance or a sacred bonus to AC on demand for combat is much more powerful in bursts. I think it all comes down to the length of the adventuring workday and what you plan on doing in it. All and all, I think it's the more powerful choice for this campaign to grab Sanctified Slayer.
Pass for Human: Tiefling racial alternate, they count as Outsider(Native) and Humanoid(Human), don't need Disguise to appear human, and lose their racial language. They also are limited in what other racial traits they can grab as they can't differ from the human norm (i.e. no wings or claws)
Duke: Character idea has been through a few submission processes and altered a bit each time, getting more refined over time. Prior submissions were happening nowhere near Chellish borders so actual rank was unimportant. Basic character started thus: Love Cheliax, wanted to play Inquisitor, don't like Asmodeus, got to researching. Eventually found Dispater and decided I really liked the guy and thought playing one of his faithful might be really fun. So evolution of concept begins. PC is a member of the royal court of Abrogail and a diehard supporter, sees himself as serving his patron god's will by backing his sovereign, has connections in court and works in the shadows and behind the scenes to push her/Chellish interests. Once that much was done, Duke seemed to be the most appropriate rank, would put him within the royal court proper and the whole tie-in with the Iron Duke was just too perfect.
I'll have a few thoughts on rank once I've mulled it over some more, haven't quite got the right handle on it. Leaning toward a second son of lower personal rank whose brother is his immediate liege (Duke brother, Paraduke PC? Limits power as he owes everything to the older brother but would put him in the court proper. Used as agent of his brother to push claim on the Barony? Maybe just pushing to get a connected loyalist the position, not even a family member so he can justify leaving later.)
I should note that some things I post for potential PC are also notes for me as I develop the idea, I'm not quite sold on anything and have a backup character idea in case this is unworkable. I'd just like to see some iteration of this guy played.
Query: Background Skills? Thought I might bring it up as a possibility as I do like them. Since you're consolidating knowledges and tweaked Linguistics maybe one Background Skill Point to put in a profession or craft or artistry?
It does help, the more concrete information I have the more I can work with it. First thought is go second son (I'm already clergy, it makes sense); second would be an outside noble trying to move in using some old claim or cat's paw, if we lack the same direct liege it would make it much harder to move directly (also certain feudal rights/customs would interfere); third is to go BIG name, little real power due to various reasons (from initial character sketch, due to the house having made a play for imperium during the civil war, it's alive because it sided with Thrune not long after); or some combination of the three. Might think of some other possibilities later.
PC Nobles: You don't like a PC starting as a Duke, how would hereditary Count with personal status of Paraduke sound? Means that the character would likely have a goal of hereditary investment for the higher title.
Inquisitor Domains/Inquisitions: Since Leadership is not allowed what would the 8th level power of the Nobility Domain be? How do you feel about the Sin Inquisition? (I ask since it's from Blood of Fiends)
Inquisitor Archetypes: I'm eyeing Sanctified Slayer as I kinda love the idea of the Studied Target bonus and the Sneak Attack, would that be ok? Not sold as Judgement is a rough thing to give up, but would like to know ahead of time for the big crunch.
Me asking doesn't mean I'm going to necessarily take an option, just like to know if it exists.
In other news: Slowly formulating background and race, cribbing from old concept of mine and tweaking as the sandbox may offer the perfect opportunity to do something I wouldn't be able to otherwise do. Tiefling for basic starting point, eyed Pass for Human racial trait, had a vicious little thought, now I'm seeing if mechanics can be made to support. (Mechanics not too much of an issue, just seeing if I can get them to match what's in my head.)
Few concepts coming together. For the first I'm going to use Tiefling as a base and build up from there to get my desired end. Fluff is that rather than being born of tainted blood, his powers are the result of a deal with the Infernal powers, Dispater specifically.
I've had a thought on Leadership that I'd like to propose. Assume all PCs have a modified form of Leadership as follows: Rather than simply attracting followers and a cohort, when used in a campaign focused on intrigue or otherwise RP heavy, Leadership merely sets a maximum number of contacts and agents the PCs can trust and they must recruited them through roleplay. So, if someone has a score that allows 10 1st level followers, 1 2nd level follower, and a Cohort of 6th level then the PC must individually recruit each one. Followers and cohorts are assumed to have a high degree of loyalty to the PC and thus can be trusted with more sensitive tasks. Followers in excess of these numbers can not be trusted to the same degree and are subject to the whims of cruel fate.
Since we'll be forming networks of contacts to go about our duties this would give us both personal goals to work towards (expanding our networks) and give us a mechanical limit to the scope of our networks. Thought I might put it out there and see if it was something the DM could work with.
1) Gestalt? I know it was talked about heavily but it's not on the character creation guidelines, so I was unsure if it was left off intentionally.
2) Is Gunslinger available? Just curious, toying with an idea that would require firearms.
3) Can I tweak the racial ability mods on Tiefling? Since Race creation is available and it would fit my primary concept better if I could say go +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis. Fluff-wise I'm not quite going for a true Tiefling but it's the closest available. (Human Looking is on my traits to pick up)
We'll just have to abuse the 5 mile limit then. :)
Undead hordes can be useful but a handful of more powerful and intelligent undead maybe more our speed. It depends on circumstances though and if we go the "good publicity" route it may be handy to use the hordes to help people and make them think that all that talk about the evil of undead is just propaganda. From there you just segue into the rest of the problems with evil being "propaganda."
Hmm, thought I had mentioned a class. His Grace would be an Inquisitor of Dispater, not sure what the other half would be if gestalt. I'm working on two secondary concepts as well. One is an Elven Ranger who would be a resurrection of an old character, the other is less fleshed out but probably try something from Occult cause I haven't had opportunity to toy with it yet.
On the note of cohorts: I always liked to find a cohort in game or design one that just kind of naturally got along with my PC and made sense for someone who would hang around and work for the more experienced PC. A squire, a majordomo, an apprentice for those with the same or similar classes to the PC. In other cases there's a link, examples include the cleric accompanying the paladin of the same faith or a pair of nature lovers (a ranger and a barbarian) who are drinking buddies in addition to being adventuring companions or even a married couple of adventurers. My favorite was the troll who accompanied my elven ranger in a Kingmaker game, ranger was head of the secret police and offered the troll a job as his enforcer, after a few years in game the troll was loyal enough to take as a cohort and started taking ranger levels himself.
Kinda discourages the item shop cohort or the super buffer, though a bard cohort can be very useful for everyone in the party.
As always, simply my musings. Take what you will, perhaps with a grain of salt. I simply offer what I can.
@DM: I've got a few thoughts on characters in case you don't like the one I shopped first.
Starting as nobility: It's really a question of what motivates a character. In the case of my duke write up it's his patriotism (and a crush on his queen) that drives him. He won't rise any higher in the ranks unless some archduke gets bumped off and money isn't really a motivator so it's all love of country. Power differentials between PCs tend to be less of an issue in these sorts of games as the nature of working in the shadows means that teamwork is absolutely necessary and everyone has to contribute their unique talents.
Isger: Yep, PCs are the agents. I wrote it in character as my preferred character as that gave me a more framed perspective.
The Army: The thing about claiming an area for Cheliax (or any nation) is the sign its claimed is the military moving in. You always need boots on the ground as "Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" or sword in our case. If done right (and I intend to serve Her Infernal Dominatrix right) the army won't have to fight at all. Just a company of soldiers at the capitol (statehouse, palace, etc.) and putting some locals in uniform should be enough to officially say "We own this". It's the end of a conquest and a sign for the PCs to move on to the next nation.
Our military might: Royal "we," Chellish military, not the PCs personal guard (though a mercenary company might be something to invest in, note to self). Mid to high level PCs are a force of their own right with just a standard party of four when most soldiers are level three-ish warriors (One sorcerer spamming fireball can take out regiments, a barbarian can rip apart elite troops, a rogue could easily take out most officers, etc.)
Non-Military Conquest: Warsaw Pact? Workable and less likely to antagonize the other great powers (at first). It all depends, do we want control or annexation? The first can be done through puppets, the later requires military support, even if it's just locals we recruit and put in red and black uniforms.
Leadership: Part of the issue is that there's a few classes that come with it as a bonus feat. Really leadership, if allowed, is a way to have operatives you trust to handle stuff in the background while the PCs are the center of the action. Treat it a bit like VtM treats retainers. Followers would be best be used to handle the PCs Chellish holdings and act as messengers, maybe deniable assets. Cohorts can do work that PCs can't for whatever reason or act as force multipliers. For example: After cultivating a resistance in Nidal and getting ready for a coup the PCs move to assassinate members of the Umbral Council, followers that have discretely been smuggled into the country or recruited on site are used to stir up riots while the cohorts of two of the PCs lead attacks on guard stations near the council chambers to occupy reinforcements, a third cohort stays behind to coordinate, and a fourth joins the PCs to act as a backup healer and rear guard.
Walking into a room and saying "We're agents of Thrune": TPK? Last thing we want to do is call out who we work for, want to give some doubt at least. Yeah, maybe the enemy knows Marbo the Half-Orc is a crime lord in Westcrown but maybe he's just here to expand his black market connections in Nidal, not trying to overthrow the government, that would be silly, right? (*smiles evilly*) Our ally as shadow runners, *cough*, Agents of the Crown is doubt and confusion as to our intentions. Proper introductions are what you do when the enemy is bleeding out and unconscious.
@Joynt Jezebel:*tips hat* try not to fall for me :)
As a veteran of the Masquerade myself I'm sure we'll get along famously.
@Rostam: Hahahaha, I love this plan. Can't believe I didn't think of it myself. Kudos to you.
@anyone bothering to listen to me: On the subject of Gestalt, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to do and suggest that the PCs expand utility rather increasing power. So while a fighter//rogue would be good (skills to help all that fighty goodness) a barbarian//fighter or arcanist//wizard less so (getting better at something they already do).
1) Let's assume we start at level 8 and a few of us have leadership. Additionally have us spend some of our starting wealth on holdings (say 10% minimum). And give us each say 3+Cha Mod in Chellish contacts we can use and have us write up brief outlines of each contact (with GM approval). Between contacts, holdings, and followers we should have something to bargain with. If some of us are playing nobles let us have the power commensurate with such titles and prior to sending us on a given mission Gorthoklek can tell us what the state is willing to use for negotiation. With relatively high levels we should be able to maintain regular contact with the Queen or one of her advisers via magic or messengers. All that should give of something to bargain with. Half of acting as agents of the state is getting what we need out of the state, getting Gorthoklek to loan us the use of a few ice fiends could be as tricky as negotiating with a foreign resistance movement to draw them to our side.
2) Infiltration and manipulation rely on skills like disguise, stealth, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate. Use of knowledge skills and divination magic would be heavy. And it would take a long time. You get in good with one contact and slowly work your way up to the top. Also, don't let it boil down to one check, let checks make things harder or easier but force role-play rather than roll-play.
3) As I've played in more than a few Game of Thrones games, yeah, negotiation and infiltration is entirely playable. It takes a certain kind of player, but then so does a hack and slash dungeon delve. And as this is a PbP forum you should end up with the right kind of players applying.
Part of the issue is we're still very nebulous, it can be hard to run these scenarios in a vacuum. Without having a character written up, without having a party around me, it's hard to tell you exactly how I would approach a problem. I've played Kingmaker before and the knowledge of my kingdom's assets and my party's abilities let me come up with plans on the fly.
I'll ponder more to post for when I get my break later today.
"On the subject of Isger allow the agents to use their own networks and give them authority of negotiation befitting their station, they need not speak with the authority of the crown if you include a duke such as myself or some other high noble among them."
Big part of this could be making promises and then having to DELIVER on them, could be a lot of fun running around to make sure everything goes off properly.
"The beauty of acting as a stabilizing force in Nidal when we're the ones who destabilized it to begin with is we'll only have to commit a limited amount of our military might and will be able to augment it with local recruits. Let us paint their regime as one dedicated to evil while we are dedicated to order, should be easy to get commoners on our side."
"The Mediogalti are a source of piracy, in order to extend our embassies their I might suggest a relaxing on pirate hunting activities or even issuance of letters of marque. Legitimacy and not having to worry about our navy may drawn them into our fold."
Separate negotiations between major pirates and the Red Mantis? Taking out captains who say "no" and installing ones more pliant?
"If you do not wish your chosen shadow operatives to engage the great powers of the east then tasking a few diplomats should be enough. Perhaps with some aid from Master Gorthoklek's lieutenants? Or, if the shadow operatives have extended networks of their own then allow them to direct things from afar. And it may not be necessary to secure alliance but merely demonstrate to Andoran that we are working on one, the prospect of a two front war may halt or slow their response to our expansions."
Operate the alliance building in the background and keep the PCs apprised so they know how much they can play their hands, or if you're ok with Leadership let them task some followers to the matter.
Keep the army moving in as an aftermath thing, once the PCs have done the work and its all over but the dying let the army act as the end of an act/adventure and a chance for the PCs to catch a breather before moving on to the next target.
Well, I try to plan from the perspective of my character for this sort of thing and I have a Chelish noble that I've been wanting to play so I'll operate from his perspective:
"Isger is already basically ours, the only thing we would gain from annexing it now is the enmity of Andoran and Taldor. It's only use is as a trade route and the steward sees to that admirably. IF we were to expand there it would only be as a stepping stone into Druma or to reclaim Andoran. Claiming it should be simple however. Arrange a marriage between one of the steward's family and some duke of ours. Following an attack by Galtan revolutionaries that kills most of the steward's family, including the steward of course, our duke, with the blessing of our queen and the support of our armies, goes to claim his wife's birthright. As the duke is a sworn servant of the queen and any children would be of his line, assuming the marriage contract was properly written, the duke's heir would bring Isger nicely into our borders. Andoran will of course be irritated but they'll have little ground to stand on. If we pursue an alliance with Taldor or Qadira prior to making our move they should be unable to act."
"Nidal is a problem, they are blessed with divine attention as much as we are. I would suggest using their populace against them. Begin agitation among the lower classes to overthrow the Umbral Court, supply them with arms and other necessities and once they have got things going move into to reestablish order. Once our army is on the ground we embark on humanitarian effort to get the populace on our side. Finally we make a move to decapitate the Umbral Court and claim all in the name of our queen and our church."
"Mediogalti should be an early priority if we are to retake Sargava, too many trade routes pass by the island. Our best bet here might be an alliance, pay them off and step up our embassy. Establish a naval base that will be used to apply pressure to Sargava and use that as a chance to spread missionaries around. Once that is done allow the church to destabilize the government and have agents move to decapitate the leadership, literally. Have marines secure the capital and install some puppet prince to rule in our stead."
"All of these plans rely on a combination of military might and shadow agents. The issue, as I mentioned with Isger, is Andoran. So we need to curtail their military power. The first goal of our elite agents then... is Taldor, Osirion, and Qadira. We need to establish a defensive alliance with at least one of these nations to keep pressure on Andoran. I would suggest sending a few official diplomats as well as a handful of nobles, plus some deniable assets. Get in good with the rulers while using blackmail, bribery, and extortion, maybe even some classic heroism, to force their advisers over to our way of thinking. After that we'll have some breathing room."
There are a few ways to handle an expansion that could be used for adventure. First, there's military expansion. In this case the PCs are the generals and officers as well as elite operatives within the force. Second, is to do it through intrigue. PCs are diplomats, yes. But they also act as spies and agents provocateur; sneaking around, stealing or planting documents, gathering information, blackmailing people, and occasionally an assassination. Third, is to use both prior methods in tandem, working toward the goal of conquest via whatever means necessary.
For character creation I might suggest gestalt, it would allow the characters to have a wide range of abilities and thus never be left out due to whatever method the party is employing. High point buy would alleviate MAD and the high-ish level will give the party a solid toolbox. I've have an idea for a Chelish noble I've been itching to play and this would be a great game to use him in.
Since it is sandbox, knowing what characters are in and getting a feel for the party might be the best way to start planning the game. See what the characters intend to do and plan accordingly. Since it's PbP you can use some extra time for planning rather than flying by the seat of your pants.
Male Tiefling (Hellspawn) Inquisitor (Dispater) 1
LE medium outsider (Native)
Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Attack +0, CMB +2, CMD 13
AC 14 (16 Shield), Touch 11, Flat-footed 13 (15 Shield)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +5
HP 10 (1d8+2)
Speed 30ft
Init +1
Traits: Methodical Mind (+1 to three Knowledge Skills (Nobility, The Planes, Religion) and count as having Skill Focus (Knowledge:Religion) when researching), Wicked Leader (+1 to Cha checks vs Evil, if cohort is evil their max level is 1 higher)
Background for my submission, hopefully I'll get crunch up later tonight. Tiefling Inquisitor of Dispater. Oh, the amnesia is going to be fun...
Manius Gallonica Background:
Manius of the noble house of Gallonica was born into a distinguished bloodline. His father a duke and member of Abrogail I's court and his mother Abrogail's first cousin. While his fiendish heritage was readily apparent, his noble blood insulated him from the prejudice that tieflings often had to deal with. Early in his life he felt the calling to serve his patron god, Dispater, and was inducted into the clergy as soon as his age would permit. Learning the ways of rulership and courtly love among the disciples of the Iron Duke the young noble was marked as particularly skilled and devout among his peers. At the conclusion of his training The Lord of the Second demonstrated his favor upon Manius, answering his prayers and granting him the use of divine magics. The early death of Manius's father and his elder brother forced him to leave the clergy prior to taking his final vows, though Dispater's favor was undiminished. Taking up the mantle of duke, Manius took his father's place in the royal court and soon found himself embroiled in the dangerous games of Cheliax's upper class. His abilities as an inquisitor served him well in these trying times and that he has survived to this day is a mark of his cunningand ruthlessness.
In more recent years Manius has spent time away from the homeland and court, acting as a diplomat and missionary of behalf of Abrogail II. While officially this was a request of his and granted as a reward for his loyal service on the homefront, unofficially rumors abound. A openly loyal servant of Abrogail, the whispers are that he was somehow involved in the death of King Infrexus and her path to ascension and his external duties are a way for him to tie up loose ends. Other factors that cast shadows about the fiend-blooded duke are his rapport with General Gorthoklek and his decidedly odd treatment of slaves. Gorthoklek and Manius seem to have a friendship built on mutual appreciation, though they would likely gut each other if it proved necessary neither of them would like it. Manius's treatment of slaves, and his serfs for that matter, is strange to many of the nobles of the court but he explains it as simply following the dictates of his patron. His slaves expect much more gentle handling from Manius than other masters, logical in his mind as they are not merely property but investments. Rather than beatings for an infraction they might face reduced rations or a few days without food, hard labor at worst for most problems. This lenience has engendered a loyalty among the slips of House Gallonica rare among the halflings and a similarly unusual level of trust from their master. Indeed, Manius's majordomo is a slave by the name of Efrick who handles many of the house's finances.
Manius's personality is difficult for many to get a handle on. He is as imperious as any other noble of his rank but relates easily to those of lesser birth, perhaps due to his time among the faithful in which all acolytes were equal regardless of bloodline. He believes in strength of the whole and pushes for teamwork among his colleagues in order to accomplish his goals. Manius tends to keep a small circle of trusted associates and leaves others at arms reach. The duke is a romantic, much as his god, and pursues courtly love, most recently taking up the pursuit of the Queen herself. This (probably poor) course of action was initiated by Gorthoklek while the two attending a ball. The pit fiend made the challenge sound like a jest but his actual motives for such a suggestion are inscrutable. Regardless of why it started, Manius began writing poetry to his sovereign with relish. That he has long been her supporter and a loyal Chellish patriot has probably kept him alive to this point, that or she actually appreciates it.
Physically, he's attractive, tiefling or no. Dark hair worn shoulder length frames a patrician face, with high cheekbones, a strong jaw, and full lips. He is well built, lean but clearly muscular, and wears dark shades of red, the better to draw out his crimson eyes. He appears much younger than he is, a benefit of his infernal heritage, though the way he carries himself and the deep timber of his voice ensure that no one would think him some callow youth. His ears are slightly pointed and his fingernails are naturally black and overly sharp, in case his eyes were not enough to clue someone into his tainted blood.
Would cast Jason Isaacs circa "The Patriot" to play him.
Working on retooling my Tiefling Inquisitor of Dispater. Lawful Evil but a team player, skill oriented. Originally made him for a Strange Aeons submission, just have to alter him for these creation rules.
Mechanics as promised, still working on BG (including a name).
No Name Given, Stats:
Male Lizardfolk Druid(Worldwalker) 1
N medium humanoid (reptilian)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 8
Base Attack +0, CMB +3, CMD 15
AC 19 (21 w/Shield), Touch 13, Flat-footed 16 (18 w/Shield)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +4
HP 10 (1d8+2)
Speed 20ft (30ft base), swim 20ft (30ft base)
Init +2
Animal Companion (Tyranosaurus) 1
N medium Animal
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha10
Base Attack +1, CMB +3, CMD 16
AC 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 14
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +2
HP 12 (2d8+3)
Speed 30ft
Init +0
Attacks: Bite (+3, 1d8+3)
Feats: Toughness
Skills: Perception +7 (2 Ranks + 3 Class + 2 Wis)
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities: Link, Low-Light Vision, Natural Armor(+4), Scent, Share Spells
Ok, figured I'd ask. The hold breath one seemed like an oversight on the part of the writer so I thought it'd be worth asking. The Crocodile Swim just seemed appropriate but I had a backup option ready. Will get everything posted once I'm at my home computer.
Two questions: Would it be OK to pick up Hold Breath as a racial trait? It's 1 RP and part of the base lizardfolk but it was left off of the write-up for the race. The race is set at 8 RP so the 1 RP still has me short 1 from the standard races.
Second, would it be ok to the Crocodile Swim trait? It grants a +2 to Stealth and Swim when underwater or mostly underwater and let's you pick up one as a class skill (Picking up stealth, swim is already class). It's normally for were-crocodile kin skinwalkers, but I thought it would be thematic for a lizardfolk. Alternatively I was going to pick up Silent Hunter regional which is +1 to Stealth and class skill.
I'd probably be up for something, I'm GMing one PbP game so I can help out on GMing questions if you need it. I'd do rolls on the forum though, easier to keep track of than flipping between forum and roll20. 1 shot module and then shift into AP is a good plan, just decide on which AP first so people can plan ahead on background, traits, etc.
Need to put the actual skill breakdowns in, but all the skills listed are at 1 rank.
Haytham Raventree Stats:
Male Cleric (Red Knight) 1// Slayer 1
LN medium humanoid (elf, human)
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 14
Base Attack +1, CMB +3, CMD 13
AC 18, Touch 10, Flat-footed 18
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +6
HP 11 (1d10 +1)
Speed 30ft
Init +0
Traits: Missionary(campaign, +1 to Knowledge(Religion) and always class), Shield Trained (religion, shields are simple weapons and heavy shields are light weapons)
Other Gear: Breastplate, Cleric's Kit (Holy Symbol Upgraded to Iron), 9 GP
Haytham Background:
Haytham is a scion of the noble Raventree family of Waterdeep, the result of the patriarchs tryst with an elven woman. Born out of wedlock and left on the doorstep of the Raventree tower, he never really fit with the rest of the family. When it came time to learn a profession he was given over to the church of Tempus, but here too he was an outsider. It was the library and gaming rooms of the Red Knight's small clergy that he found acceptance. Haytham's masters in the church of Tempus turned him over to their sister order and he finally had a home. His regimented mind and dedication to puzzles and strategy put him on the fast track up the clerical ranks, but to truly ascend he would have to serve as a soldier.
Training with the rangers and trackers of the city guard, Haytham learned the skills of a scout and skirmisher but always preferred the shield wall. Once he was discharged from basic training he joined was assigned to a church mercenary contract headed to the old empires. This was how he found himself in Unther.
Been thinking about how Haytham knows Zummabu and I think I found a simple one: Haytham's a mercenary and a priest of the Red Knight, he's for sale as an adviser to anyone requiring strength of arms and tactical know how. And, since he's clergy, you can count on him to stick to a contract. So, Zummabu dropped a few coins to keep him around for (insert adventure hook here).
