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For a few years now I've been working on a campaign concept that I've really wanted to DM but couldn't quite see how to develop it for play. I'm still not sure how playable my idea is -- this PC-Driven, essentially Sandbox approach -- but I'm ready to put it out here, at least, and see if there's any interest and advice....
Queen Abrogail, Gorthoklek and Lrilatha have decided that Cheliax is ready to expand her Empire. They are looking for a small handful of powerful Loyalists to bring a few target nations under the blanket of House Thrune, including the governing bodies, merchant lords, artisans, peasants -- the entirety of nations.
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Playability:
I honestly don't see how playable this campaign is. My latest idea is to turn it into this Sandbox. You guys are say 8th to 13th level and House Thrune, at its very highest office, has chosen you for this Long-Term assignment.
You have to come up with a plan.
But I don't see a tremendous amount of combat here. Potentially no combat ever, perhaps. ....And it's also not as if you can go to say, Rahadoum or Sargava for example, and do nothing but roll Diplomacy and Intimidate checks. That's not a campaign.
I'm not even sure how to develop beyond NPCs and sites. All I know for sure -- and for the last few years now -- is that I really want to DM a campaign where Queen Abrogail Thrune sends you on this mission to expand Cheliax.
Much of this Recruitment, I would surmise, would be my considering your plans and what I would have to develop in order for you to play them out in PbP.
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Character Creation / Application:
For now I think posts should focus more on ideas for play and plans. Come up with some methods on how you would handle this mission from Her Infernal Majestrix and what kind of character creation may be appropriate. And things (encounter-types) for me to design. We can come up with PC applications later.
The campaign takes place after Curse of the Crimson Throne and before Council of Thieves. Please NO Spoilers from CoT, Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance.
Knowledge of the Pathfinder setting is important but also is an understanding that a few things have changed in my Homebrew games over the last, what, eight years of playing in The Inner Sea region.
(You noticed earlier, perhaps, that Diobel and Absalom are on "Aroden's Isle" instead of some other name, for example. And HellKnights are Lawful EVIL. ....Another example is that 'Chelaxian' is the language of Cheliax (and Andoran, btw). (They speak Taldoran in Taldor (and Absalom, btw).)
Dot, I'll come up with something once I'm at a real computer and not my phone.
There are a few ways to handle an expansion that could be used for adventure. First, there's military expansion. In this case the PCs are the generals and officers as well as elite operatives within the force. Second, is to do it through intrigue. PCs are diplomats, yes. But they also act as spies and agents provocateur; sneaking around, stealing or planting documents, gathering information, blackmailing people, and occasionally an assassination. Third, is to use both prior methods in tandem, working toward the goal of conquest via whatever means necessary.
For character creation I might suggest gestalt, it would allow the characters to have a wide range of abilities and thus never be left out due to whatever method the party is employing. High point buy would alleviate MAD and the high-ish level will give the party a solid toolbox. I've have an idea for a Chelish noble I've been itching to play and this would be a great game to use him in.
Since it is sandbox, knowing what characters are in and getting a feel for the party might be the best way to start planning the game. See what the characters intend to do and plan accordingly. Since it's PbP you can use some extra time for planning rather than flying by the seat of your pants.
I like the Rahadoum idea; slowly manipulating/assassinating key members of the Pure Legion to sow chaos and introduce the iron grip of hell as an alternative.
I'm not a fan of gestalt in general; I've always found that it doesn't so much make characters more powerful as it does make them harder to challenge.
Something that's worth considering is introducing timeskips at certain points to help avoid unnecessary minutia and let players see the long-term effects of their actions.
I think this idea sounds really interesting.
I am not as well versed in the world of Golarion as some. I keep watch to see if this campaign in fact proceeds and for character creation guidelines.
Do it through intrigue. PCs are diplomats, yes. But they also act as spies and agents provocateur; sneaking around, stealing or planting documents, gathering information, blackmailing people, and occasionally an assassination.
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This is what I've been thinking for the last few years. I just could not think of specific design. When I started to consider the Sandbox approach (letting the Players dictate their plans of expansion) I realized that if they tell me their plans, then I could develop some specific encounters.
I've got a "big-picture" handle on the target nations' leaders and peasant-life and such. I 'think that once a couple Players say, for example, "Well let's find a governor in Sargava and 'blah-blah-blah' him," I'll be able to fill in the details for those NPCs and let you try your best.
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For character creation I might suggest gestalt, .... High point buy
I think it's a bit too early to approach this. In typical games of mine there is a high point buy and, in fact, I prefer Gestalt. But this is a different kind of campaign. Let's see what's appropriate.
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Since it is sandbox, knowing what characters are in and getting a feel for the party might be the best way to start planning the game. See what the characters intend to do and plan accordingly.
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That's exactly what I'm looking for right now....
What would YOU try if given this mission from House Thrune?
....A series a bribes to Isger coupled with assigning a few specific Chelaxian nobles land & title out East?
....Bullying and assassination in Sargava?
....Slow infiltration & manipulation in Diobel?
And how can that play out? What are a couple specific plans?
Then we can get a feel for appropriate PC-Generation and Class Levels.
I do think there will be quite a bit of Diplomacy-to-Gather-Information, especially early on.
I'm not a fan of gestalt in general
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Noted.
Later on, if it does look like Gestalt may be appropriate afterall, I'll gladly give any asked-for advice and personal experience that will hopefully decide if the campaign is right for you. Of course, it may be a moot point if the campaign doesn't lean Gestalt for PCs.
For now it's too early, IMO, to consider PC-generation.
I want your ideas for expansion.
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Something that's worth considering is introducing timeskips at certain points to help avoid unnecessary minutia and let players see the long-term effects of their actions.
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Oh yeah, this is gonna happen. No other way to do it. My initial guess is that these will be more 'short-term' segues, rather than the 'five-years-later' idea that I think your post implies. But still, passing a few weeks or months here and there will almost certainly have to happen.
In fact, it's one of the things I feel I have a good handle on.
Let's say you choose Mediogalti first (cuz you have a good idea for the Mantis Assassins). We game there for a bit and then, when your plans are set into motion or you've learned about and manipulated whomever what you wanted to -- instead of sitting back and waiting, you'll leave and go to, perhaps, Nidal or Diobel. Later you'll see what havoc you've wrought in Mediogalti and decide if you need to go back (letting time pass in Nidal or Diobel).
I am not as well versed in the world of Golarion as some.
I would give a shout-out that if you like the idea of playing Lawful Evil PCs.... in a Sandbox campaign.... where you're trying to expand an Empire of Devil Worshipers to other nations.... in a Play-by-post venue,--
--well then knowing tons of the details of the campaign setting is less meaningful.
AND, all my little Homebrew evolutions of and alterations to the published campaign setting will less likely bother you.
Well, I try to plan from the perspective of my character for this sort of thing and I have a Chelish noble that I've been wanting to play so I'll operate from his perspective:
"Isger is already basically ours, the only thing we would gain from annexing it now is the enmity of Andoran and Taldor. It's only use is as a trade route and the steward sees to that admirably. IF we were to expand there it would only be as a stepping stone into Druma or to reclaim Andoran. Claiming it should be simple however. Arrange a marriage between one of the steward's family and some duke of ours. Following an attack by Galtan revolutionaries that kills most of the steward's family, including the steward of course, our duke, with the blessing of our queen and the support of our armies, goes to claim his wife's birthright. As the duke is a sworn servant of the queen and any children would be of his line, assuming the marriage contract was properly written, the duke's heir would bring Isger nicely into our borders. Andoran will of course be irritated but they'll have little ground to stand on. If we pursue an alliance with Taldor or Qadira prior to making our move they should be unable to act."
"Nidal is a problem, they are blessed with divine attention as much as we are. I would suggest using their populace against them. Begin agitation among the lower classes to overthrow the Umbral Court, supply them with arms and other necessities and once they have got things going move into to reestablish order. Once our army is on the ground we embark on humanitarian effort to get the populace on our side. Finally we make a move to decapitate the Umbral Court and claim all in the name of our queen and our church."
"Mediogalti should be an early priority if we are to retake Sargava, too many trade routes pass by the island. Our best bet here might be an alliance, pay them off and step up our embassy. Establish a naval base that will be used to apply pressure to Sargava and use that as a chance to spread missionaries around. Once that is done allow the church to destabilize the government and have agents move to decapitate the leadership, literally. Have marines secure the capital and install some puppet prince to rule in our stead."
"All of these plans rely on a combination of military might and shadow agents. The issue, as I mentioned with Isger, is Andoran. So we need to curtail their military power. The first goal of our elite agents then... is Taldor, Osirion, and Qadira. We need to establish a defensive alliance with at least one of these nations to keep pressure on Andoran. I would suggest sending a few official diplomats as well as a handful of nobles, plus some deniable assets. Get in good with the rulers while using blackmail, bribery, and extortion, maybe even some classic heroism, to force their advisers over to our way of thinking. After that we'll have some breathing room."
@Almagafor,
Thanks.
*Where's the gameplay?
....With what do you negotiate with the Chelaxian noble?
If the bachelor (future Duke) and his House say, "Uh uh, we need Junior to marry little junior-Miss Westcrown because we have plans for him to be a ParaCount there and need him to marry into THAT House," how do you answer?
(You CAN'T say, Abrogail wants it. That's not playable.
....My thought is that the gameplay here could be, you pick a House and then roleplay some spy-stuff finding some dirt on them. Then blackmail them into accepting the marriage with Isger.
Roleplaying a plot to kill the Isgeri wife in a few years is pretty easy. And will be fun to play out -- you guys assassinating one half of the couple without, hopefully, the Cheliax Half discovering it's you.
And at some point you'll be killing Umbral Court reps in Nisroch and getting your new recruits to take steps against their masters. I can develop quite a bit of playable material here.
But let's look at the first half. You go to Ilizmagorti, find a way to meet the Red Mantis, and what, roll a Diplomacy check to set up a Chelaxian embassy!?!? What can you offer? What's the roleplay here? I've got quite a bit of Ilizmagorti material, and a tiny bit on the Crimson Citadel; I'm ready to DM it if there's a way for you to play it.
Let Abrogail Thrune, Gorthoklek and Lrilatha deal with Andoran outrage. They certainly will have control of the HellKnights and the Chelaxian military.
--I don't want a 'battle-of-five-armies' campaign. At all. PCs doing grunt work in the target nations -- with the occasional bluff that an armada of HellKnights might be on the way (the way a Drow in Faerun would do it) to emphasize your point. That's the campaign I'm looking to run.
Keep knowledge of your plans close to the vest in gameplay and strategy -- not advertising to the world your plans for a young bachelor-duke of Cheliax to marry into Isger and eventually take control, .... not advertising to the world that you're setting up a stronghold in Mediogalti Island to first use it to push off an attack Sargava then to take over The Crimson Citadel.
(especially considering you have no army, just the PCs)
"On the subject of Isger allow the agents to use their own networks and give them authority of negotiation befitting their station, they need not speak with the authority of the crown if you include a duke such as myself or some other high noble among them."
"The beauty of acting as a stabilizing force in Nidal when we're the ones who destabilized it to begin with is we'll only have to commit a limited amount of our military might and will be able to augment it with local recruits. Let us paint their regime as one dedicated to evil while we are dedicated to order, should be easy to get commoners on our side."
"The Mediogalti are a source of piracy, in order to extend our embassies their I might suggest a relaxing on pirate hunting activities or even issuance of letters of marque. Legitimacy and not having to worry about our navy may drawn them into our fold."
"If you do not wish your chosen shadow operatives to engage the great powers of the east then tasking a few diplomats should be enough. Perhaps with some aid from Master Gorthoklek's lieutenants? Or, if the shadow operatives have extended networks of their own then allow them to direct things from afar. And it may not be necessary to secure alliance but merely demonstrate to Andoran that we are working on one, the prospect of a two front war may halt or slow their response to our expansions."
Hmm. So is this a recruitment, or an interest-building thread? Because I've got a few character concept ideas (warpriest/bolt ace assassin, hamatalatsu monk spy) that could be interesting in this sort of thing but not sure what to go with quite yet.
Good question, Thunderbeard....
With each passing day I think it's moving more from 'interest-building' to 'recruitment.' Except I wouldn't have called it 'interest-building' as much as I'd call it, "Is this campaign even playable?"
There are still points where I just don't see viable playability; How do you negotiate when you have nothing to offer? -How do you infiltrate & manipulate beyond a simple Diplomacy or Intimidate?
....Some of these, though, I think we've got the answer: One can do it by gathering blackmail information. But how does that work in situations where blackmail is not viable?
And it still begs the question, "Is a game of negotiation and blackmail playable?"
I hoped that by making it more Player-Driven, more like a Sandbox, that you would come up with how to make it playable, come up with plans and strategies that can be roleplayed into a campaign.
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I think it's important to repeat, though I've mentioned it a couple times already, you don't have an army of HellKnights or whatever backing you up. You can't speak for Cheliax or Queen Abrogail Thrune. You may be able to attempt an occasional bluff, here, but I don't even know how successful that could be.
Taking each in turn.
1) Let's assume we start at level 8 and a few of us have leadership. Additionally have us spend some of our starting wealth on holdings (say 10% minimum). And give us each say 3+Cha Mod in Chellish contacts we can use and have us write up brief outlines of each contact (with GM approval). Between contacts, holdings, and followers we should have something to bargain with. If some of us are playing nobles let us have the power commensurate with such titles and prior to sending us on a given mission Gorthoklek can tell us what the state is willing to use for negotiation. With relatively high levels we should be able to maintain regular contact with the Queen or one of her advisers via magic or messengers. All that should give of something to bargain with. Half of acting as agents of the state is getting what we need out of the state, getting Gorthoklek to loan us the use of a few ice fiends could be as tricky as negotiating with a foreign resistance movement to draw them to our side.
2) Infiltration and manipulation rely on skills like disguise, stealth, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate. Use of knowledge skills and divination magic would be heavy. And it would take a long time. You get in good with one contact and slowly work your way up to the top. Also, don't let it boil down to one check, let checks make things harder or easier but force role-play rather than roll-play.
3) As I've played in more than a few Game of Thrones games, yeah, negotiation and infiltration is entirely playable. It takes a certain kind of player, but then so does a hack and slash dungeon delve. And as this is a PbP forum you should end up with the right kind of players applying.
Part of the issue is we're still very nebulous, it can be hard to run these scenarios in a vacuum. Without having a character written up, without having a party around me, it's hard to tell you exactly how I would approach a problem. I've played Kingmaker before and the knowledge of my kingdom's assets and my party's abilities let me come up with plans on the fly.
I'll ponder more to post for when I get my break later today.
@ Almagafor,
I've gone over your post several times and I'm still unsure of what you're proposing a little bit.
Let me start with this idea that I think is good food for thought for you. Instead of starting a PC as a Duke already, start as a PC who wants to BE a Duke, has BIG ambitions. So then, House Thrune wants you to help bend nations under the banner of Cheliax, they say, by using guile, manipulation, subtle intimidation and infiltration -- well, you want to be a high-ranking Duke, Count or Paracount in the Empire, your choice where, once you succeed.
So you go -- with the other PCs -- to these target places and slowly begin bending them under the banner of Cheliax, using Guile, Manipulation, Subtle Intimidation, and Infiltration.
If you start as a Duke, what are you building up to? (It's like starting at 20th level for a dungeon-crawl.)
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Regarding your latest comments on Isger, I'm not sure who you're talking about as "agents." ....The PCs are the agents.
I do like the potential playability of making a promise and then having to deliver on it. But where is an example that works? ....You tell a merchant lord in Isger that his taxes will go down -- then go back to Cheliax to try to make it happen? ....You tell a small community that Cheliax will post a dozen soldiers here to protect from goblin raids -- then go back to Cheliax to try to get them? I can design that, sure, but I'm just not sure how playable (fun) it would be.
I think a playable part for some of these places -- Mediogalti, Isger, Rahadoum, Sargava-- may be to seek-and-destroy some of their problems (goblins in Isger; pirates in Ilizmagorti; maybe Divs in Rahadoum; um, Gorillas from the Mwangi in Sargava). Then, as the new 'Heroes' -- illustrate how much better things would be with a more permanent Chelaxian presence. NOW start with Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidation, ROLEPLAY -- slowly build up a local presence supporting the natives who support you.
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Regarding what you said about Nidal....
We'll only have to commit a limited amount of our military might....
You (the PCs) don't have any military might. Thrune is not giving you a military force. (The Cheliax army stays focused on Andoran, the navy stays watching Absalom, Taldor and Andoran ships.)
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Regarding Mediogalti, excellent idea but how would it play? You issue your statement, producing letters of marque to Ilizmagorti ships -- then what? Do you not even roll a d20? Is this diceless roleplay? And don't forget the gross limitations on your authority before issuing that statement of "relaxing pirate hunting activities."
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Regarding 'great powers of the east,'I assume you are speaking as the PCs are the "Shadow Operatives."
Yes, 'shadow operatives' I like -- that's a good way to describe what I'm looking for in a group of PCs.
But there's no War in this campaign. Cheliax is not sending armies anywhere in this campaign. That's not what I want to DM. A group of PCs coming up with ways to get the local populaces, maybe even a few individual NPCs at a time, to support Cheliax -- that's the campaign I'm looking to DM.
You won't be using any of Gorthoklek's lieutenants. YOU are the 'lieutenants' he's sending for this long-term job.
Now, the PCs will make local contacts with whom to deal as they move forward with their plans.
@Almafagor,
I just saw your newest post -- looking it over now (#1 looks good).
Looks like we were writing our posts at the same time -- here are my thoughts on your latest....
I'll just do the old, These lines I support / These lines I don't.
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I don't like the idea of Leadership as a Feat.
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Have us spend some of our starting wealth on holdings.
I'd likely give you a fund of party treasure (including Chelaxian resources plus gold) in addition to starting wealth for your PC.
Indeed, I've already got an idea on how to start up this campaign -- say a couple months (in-game time) PRIOR to your mission from House Thrune. This early adventure in Cheliax would get you some Chelaxian resources with which to wield when House Thrune comes calling for the Campaign mission.
And give us each say 3+Cha Mod in Chellish contacts we can use and have us write up brief outlines of each contact (with GM approval). Between contacts, holdings, and followers we should have something to bargain with.
This I'm less comfortable with. I would, however, maybe introduce x number of Chelaxian NPCs who support you and have resources you can use to bargain with.
.If some of us are playing nobles let us have the power commensurate with such titles
I'm big on trying to ensure the PCs are as equal as possible. I don't want one PC to be any greater than other PCs or one PC to be any lesser than other PCs. This one is a "No."
.and prior to sending us on a given mission Gorthoklek can tell us what the state is willing to use for negotiation. With relatively high levels we should be able to maintain regular contact with the Queen or one of her advisers via magic or messengers.
Both of these are a "Yes." House Thrune will answer questions before you go -- what can you say (offer) in Rahadoum / what can't you say (offer) in Mediogalti, etc. And you will be able to contact a high ranking NPC in Cheliax while away, not sure who yet.
Half of acting as agents of the state is getting what we need out of the state, getting Gorthoklek to loan us the use of a few ice fiends could be as tricky as negotiating with a foreign resistance movement to draw them to our side.
I agree with the first part -- and The State will help. But I believe it was you who coined the term "Shadow Operatives." ....Ultimately, if all you have to do is walk into a room and say, We're agents of House Thrune-- there's nothing really to play for.
As for getting a Gelugon from Gorthoklek -- it would depend on the specific situation. But it could occasionally happen.
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You get in good with one contact and slowly work your way up to the top. Also, don't let it boil down to one check, let checks make things harder or easier but force role-play rather than roll-play.
Yes. This. Make an ally in Diobel. Use that ally to make another. Use guile, manipulation, subtle intimidation, diplomacy & negotiation, and infiltration to make more. Leave and come back a few months later to see how they're doing on their own. Eventually they come to power and voila -- half of Diobel supports Cheliax. Eventually.
.....More than a few Game of Thrones games, yeah, negotiation and infiltration is entirely playable.
Not too hard for you to believe that this started in my head, a few years ago, as a "Game of Thrones in Cheliax" campaign.
.I'll post my ideas for PC generation later. I'm still thinking about some stuff (and hoping to get a couple more posters, hopefully with some ideas and suggestions).
Just adding, I'd have no objection to varying power levels between the PCs - I've found that they can actually improve roleplaying if you can trust all parties concerned not to abuse the power.
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Seems grossly misleading.
Seems a bit more like it.
I wanted to contribute plans and schemes to this thread. But as I said in my earlier post, I will have to read up on the world of Golarion. This will take a bit of time.
But I love the campaign idea. I have played lots and lots of Vampire the Masquerade, which is all about subtle manipulation and treachery. Almagafor is a man after my own heart. If you ask anyone who has GMed with me as a player, give me half a chance and I will start scheming to take over the world.
I have a couple of observations. The PCs have no army. I don't know what level we will be but it won't be 1st or 2nd. Someone mentioned 8th, and 4 or 5 8th level PCs with some resources and absolutely no morals or restraint can create a lot of trouble. Even just by main force.
The campaign idea sounds kind of large and unmanageable at the moment. But in practice, the PCs should pick one or two targets to start. Perhaps the ones the PCs have the most apparently promising schemes to subvert. 5 PCs trying to take over 6 or 7 countries at once isn't really manageable or feasible.
Then we can use the resources from our 1st conquest to take over the 2nd.
As I said in my earlier post, I will have to read up on the world of Golarion.
Taking a look at my earlier post, "A Brief Primer on Nations and City-States" is your best place to start. It gives a few introductory sentences on the places you'll be going. From there you can ask questions here or check out PathfinderWiki.com and use their Search function.
.Give me half a chance and I will start scheming to take over the world.
I think that's a great starting point.
Imagine a PC in an Empire of Devil Worshipers with lots of ambition getting a mission to subvert a few other city-states or nations. You'll use your "manipulation" and "treachery" skills to do it (since you don't have enough brute force) -- you just have to decide what you want in return. (One of the other PCs wants to be awarded a Duchy.)
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The campaign idea sounds kind of large and unmanageable at the moment. But in practice, the PCs should pick one or two targets to start. ....5 PCs trying to take over 6 or 7 countries at once isn't really manageable or feasible.
Well the idea is that we all choose a starting point that sounds fun (Rahadoum, perhaps) and you start there. Once you've accomplished some small-time goals-- getting some information, making some allies, planting some seeds, etc., you pick another one of the "targets" that sounds like fun (perhaps Diobel or Nidal) and do the same thing there -- albeit perhaps with a different strategy. Later you would go back to Rahadoum to see how things are developing before moving on to, say, Isger or Sargava. And eventually you'd revisit Diobel or Nidal. Rinse and repeat.
As agents of Cheliax you eat the elephant one bite at a time -- trying to stay as inconspicuous and under-the-radar as you can manage.
I was in a high-level (12th+gestalt) Taldor nobility campaign a while back. It was pretty fun—we were mostly stopping assassinations, etc. My PC was a 90-year-old man in a wheelchair who was also a master of polymorph spells and would act as a body double for the country's queen when duty and danger called.
It could be fun to play a dark mirror to that—a noble aspirant of incredible patience and intelligence, but different morality. I also have two suggestions:
1. Start a new recruitment thread once you have all the details worked out (if people start out with ideas here, have them check in once on the new thread).
2. Gestalt can be a cool flavor for campaigns like this if it's *limited*. For instance: allow gestalts, but only with a single class (or some small set of classes). Good examples: Noble Scion (a PrC specifically focused on diplomatic campaigns, which gives leadership—though you could, for instance, require that cohorts be "heirs" or "apprentices" who stay behind in Cheliax to manage their masters' wealth/estates/businesses/schemes), Bard, Hellknight (of some flavor), or the cool and appropriate Vigilante class. (Actually, making everyone gestalt vigilantes could lead to a cool sort of lex-luther-supervillains campaign).
3. Bluff and Diplomacy aren't single-use tools. Give your party objectives like: gain the ear of a ruler, install a puppet, etc. They'll need to figure out who to assassinate, bribe, impersonate, and what lies to tell (since bluff and diplo get, by RAW, DM fiat bonuses or penalties based on believability), and you can stat out the necessary encounters and NPCs as they become relevant.
Just adding, I'd have no objection to varying power levels between the PCs - I've found that they can actually improve roleplaying if you can trust all parties concerned not to abuse the power.
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Noted.
@ Rostam,
This kind of planning is precisely what I'm hoping for. When Players can come up with specific plans that a small group of PCs can implement, I can use that to develop the game.
The early steps you list all sound very playable. And your observation that step seven may not be playable, you called it "problematic," are insightful.
I'm getting more comfortable that this can become a campaign.
I think in the next day or so -- perhaps early next week as now I really need to focus on DM-prep for my Saturday homegame (as well as level-up a PC in another homegame) -- I'll figure out how to start character generation.
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I was originally thinking of starting a new Recruitment Thread once we got past this initial, can-it-work Thread. And sure enough, someone even posted that recommendation. But I dunno. We've got five potential PCs already who have posted either interest or interest and ideas. I think that as this continues to develop, that may be good enough. I'll throw out my thoughts on how to start and you guys can comment and give concerns & advice.
As always, simply my musings. Take what you will, perhaps with a grain of salt. I simply offer what I can.
@DM: I've got a few thoughts on characters in case you don't like the one I shopped first.
Starting as nobility: It's really a question of what motivates a character. In the case of my duke write up it's his patriotism (and a crush on his queen) that drives him. He won't rise any higher in the ranks unless some archduke gets bumped off and money isn't really a motivator so it's all love of country. Power differentials between PCs tend to be less of an issue in these sorts of games as the nature of working in the shadows means that teamwork is absolutely necessary and everyone has to contribute their unique talents.
Isger: Yep, PCs are the agents. I wrote it in character as my preferred character as that gave me a more framed perspective.
The Army: The thing about claiming an area for Cheliax (or any nation) is the sign its claimed is the military moving in. You always need boots on the ground as "Political power flows from the barrel of a gun" or sword in our case. If done right (and I intend to serve Her Infernal Dominatrix right) the army won't have to fight at all. Just a company of soldiers at the capitol (statehouse, palace, etc.) and putting some locals in uniform should be enough to officially say "We own this". It's the end of a conquest and a sign for the PCs to move on to the next nation.
Our military might: Royal "we," Chellish military, not the PCs personal guard (though a mercenary company might be something to invest in, note to self). Mid to high level PCs are a force of their own right with just a standard party of four when most soldiers are level three-ish warriors (One sorcerer spamming fireball can take out regiments, a barbarian can rip apart elite troops, a rogue could easily take out most officers, etc.)
Non-Military Conquest: Warsaw Pact? Workable and less likely to antagonize the other great powers (at first). It all depends, do we want control or annexation? The first can be done through puppets, the later requires military support, even if it's just locals we recruit and put in red and black uniforms.
Leadership: Part of the issue is that there's a few classes that come with it as a bonus feat. Really leadership, if allowed, is a way to have operatives you trust to handle stuff in the background while the PCs are the center of the action. Treat it a bit like VtM treats retainers. Followers would be best be used to handle the PCs Chellish holdings and act as messengers, maybe deniable assets. Cohorts can do work that PCs can't for whatever reason or act as force multipliers. For example: After cultivating a resistance in Nidal and getting ready for a coup the PCs move to assassinate members of the Umbral Council, followers that have discretely been smuggled into the country or recruited on site are used to stir up riots while the cohorts of two of the PCs lead attacks on guard stations near the council chambers to occupy reinforcements, a third cohort stays behind to coordinate, and a fourth joins the PCs to act as a backup healer and rear guard.
Walking into a room and saying "We're agents of Thrune": TPK? Last thing we want to do is call out who we work for, want to give some doubt at least. Yeah, maybe the enemy knows Marbo the Half-Orc is a crime lord in Westcrown but maybe he's just here to expand his black market connections in Nidal, not trying to overthrow the government, that would be silly, right? (*smiles evilly*) Our ally as shadow runners, *cough*, Agents of the Crown is doubt and confusion as to our intentions. Proper introductions are what you do when the enemy is bleeding out and unconscious.
@Joynt Jezebel:*tips hat* try not to fall for me :)
As a veteran of the Masquerade myself I'm sure we'll get along famously.
@Rostam: Hahahaha, I love this plan. Can't believe I didn't think of it myself. Kudos to you.
@anyone bothering to listen to me: On the subject of Gestalt, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to do and suggest that the PCs expand utility rather increasing power. So while a fighter//rogue would be good (skills to help all that fighty goodness) a barbarian//fighter or arcanist//wizard less so (getting better at something they already do).
It could be fun to play a dark mirror to (my old PC), a noble aspirant of incredible patience and intelligence, but different morality.
He sounds cool.
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Gestalt can be a cool flavor for campaigns like this if it's *limited*.
Well as I mentioned, I prefer gestalt PCs. But I'm still a bit too far away from having a handle on the game to push for gestalt, or even level (though as I mentioned earlier, somewhere between 8th and 13th).
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Bluff and Diplomacy aren't....
Considering it, I think I want to use Skill rolls for small things -- not big things. So, we can't roll a Diplomacy for allowing a Chelaxian regiment in Rahadoum, or roll a Bluff that legions of Lemures will invade Sargava if you don't do blah-blah-blah. But we can roll a Diplomacy for allowing a Chelaxian bodyguard for a particular merchant in Rahadoum, or a Bluff that you'll summon some Lemures to ruin a merchant's sugar cane field in Sargava.
As always, simply my musings. Take what you will, perhaps with a grain of salt. I simply offer what I can.
You've been incredibly helpful, both in keeping your interest up and in guiding my thinking. Making me think.
With each idea, suggestion, concern, plan, etc., you guys put out there, each of us reading this Thread can think about how this game can play out -- and how it maybe can't play out. And you've added the most content.
As I said in my earlier post, I will have to read up on the world of Golarion.Taking a look at my earlier post, "A Brief Primer on Nations and City-States" is your best place to start. It gives a few introductory sentences on the places you'll be going. From there you can ask questions here or check out PathfinderWiki.com and use their Search function.
Or I can go to Inner Sea Guide and read the relevant bits. Take a while, but its the way to do it properly. I did read the primers, they are a good start.
Give me half a chance and I will start scheming to take over the world.I think that's a great starting point.
Imagine a PC in an Empire of Devil Worshipers with lots of ambition getting a mission to subvert a few other city-states or nations. You'll use your "manipulation" and "treachery" skills to do it (since you don't have enough brute force) -- you just have to decide what you want in return. (One of the other PCs wants to be awarded a Duchy.)
I see the idea. Though the crown will be in charge of rewards.
For this I need a character and I am not there yet.
The campaign idea sounds kind of large and unmanageable at the moment. But in practice, the PCs should pick one or two targets to start. ....5 PCs trying to take over 6 or 7 countries at once isn't really manageable or feasible.Well the idea is that we all choose a starting point that sounds fun (Rahadoum, perhaps) and you start there. Once you've accomplished some small-time goals-- getting some information, making some allies, planting some seeds, etc., you pick another one of the "targets" that sounds like fun (perhaps Diobel or Nidal) and do the same thing there -- albeit perhaps with a different strategy. Later you would go back to Rahadoum to see how things are developing before moving on to, say, Isger or Sargava. And eventually you'd revisit Diobel or Nidal. Rinse and repeat.
As agents of Cheliax you eat the elephant one bite at a time -- trying to stay as inconspicuous and under-the-radar as you can manage.
I see, your thinking was already closer to mine than I thought. It sounds like a lot of fun. World beware.
Oh and I just read Rostam's suggestions to subvert Rahadoum and started reading that part of the inner sea guide.
There have been worries that plagues have been part of divine retribution for the countries no religion policies. Well, start more plagues. Weaken the country and its goverments position. Muh Huh Huh.
Rahadoum is tricky. What are we tasked with—subverting the populace as a whole? (that will take time, a lot of effort, and probably killing off inquisitors on a nationwide scale—which is quite a bit of combat). Or just assassinating a key leader, convincing one city to accept religion on a trial basis, shifting the government towards disbanding the army or signing a first-step treaty with Cheliax?
You can't take over a country in a year; but you can make steps, and the question then becomes what steps are we trying to accomplish.
Chillel is one of my aliases. I posted in the wrong one, sorry.
Back with some more thoughts.
1 On Diobel. The current ruler of Diobel, Lord Avid, is a bitter rival of the ruler of Absolom, Lord Gyr. Find out Lord Avid's agenda and grievances by spying, detective work or observation. Take actions in furtherance of that agenda against Absalom, leaving fabricated evidence pointing to Lord Avid. The besieged and persecuted Lord Avid will be in need of allies against these fabricated charges designed to rationalise Absalom taking direct control of Diobel. Cheliax can offer the needed support.
2 In Rahadoum-
a) There is an underground cult of Sarenrae there. In the areas that they operate, actions can be taken against the government and the Pure Legion that point to the cult of Sarenrae, but are actually taken by us. This will, hopefully, lead to repression of the cult and local populace, weakening both the government of Rahadoum and those stupid worshippers of Sarenrae.
b) Create border incidents with adjoining states. These can lead to conflicts, even wars. You can use this strategy against other targeted states as well.
On starting characters, I read you were contemplating starting people at level 8 to 13. Perhaps start people toward the lower end and have them progress relatively quickly.
It has a couple of benefits- it makes the starting characters a bit simpler. And players tend to like leveling up a lot.
It is possible I will run a character with lots of undead minions. These can be used to create problems with rampaging hordes of undead the PCs can heroically step in to fight off.
Huh. Weakening Sarenrae's cult might be the opposite angle—Cheliax works best by persuasion, and attributing miracles (or the curing of a plague) to a religion, any religion, is the first step in changing political atttituedes.
As for level—9 to 11 is a good starting point for high-powered campaigns, because 4th/5th level spells, greater rage powers, advanced rogue talents etc. tend to lead to characters with different gameplay. (And I know my current character concept works much better at level 9 or higher)
* * *
Also, thoughts on templates? There are some cool variant vampires, half-fiend, etc. options that could be fun but might just be too frowned upon socially in Cheliax (and which might off-balance things).
There's very little you can do on a nation-changing scale at level 5, though (and every infiltrator/influential character is basically the same, as a result)... and if your characters are able to pull things off at that level, it's hard to not just say "we are gods, smash everything" five levels later.
If you want a campaign that's mostly roleplaying with no mechanics, level 5-6 works? But that doesn't have us as "powerful" or "special agents." And that low a level really limits what people can do mechanically—which means less shenanigans, magic, shapeshifting, kidnapping, crafting, etc., and mostly just rumors and stealth.
The big question of course would be "what would be the most fun for this sort of game?" Personally, I like the idea of characters who start out powerful, thus being worth trusting with this sort of task, instead of new recruits who have to learn on the job.
Huh. Weakening Sarenrae's cult might be the opposite angle—Cheliax works best by persuasion, and attributing miracles (or the curing of a plague) to a religion, any religion, is the first step in changing political attitudes.
You could be right. Maybe I am being too sinister for my own good. Manipulating potential enemies into murdering one another is an ingrained habit.
The idea is to provoke the existing authorities in Rahadoum into cracking down on the populace. If they have to go murdering and torturing the faithful it is best they pick on Sarenrae worshipers rather than righteous satanic cultists.
Each time I look at this thread, I want to play in it more.
Yep! It's a good concept; I just don't want to start on a character until I know what resources I'll have, because that'll help determine what range of powers/skill/backstory are *possible*
Wow, this is pretty awesome! I would definitely enjoy being a part of a game that spreads the power and glory of Hell and Cheliax!!
Couple of thoughts, suggestions, musings:
Get your hands on all 3 intrigue books(Ultimate, Inner Sea, and Spymaster's Handbool). They cover a ton of this stuff, and have a slew of rules to help back up a lot of the ides.
Even if you don't use any of the rules themselves, they should give you plenty of ideas.
Also, I agree with the idea of Leadership, as what Almagafor suggested above on how to use the cohorts and followers is pretty much exactly what you're looking for with this game.
Think of it this way: Allowing us followers and cohorts lets us use them to help subvert towns, cities, and eventually nations. Sure, we could likely do that without them, but they at least give us an in road that will make it a little(but not by much) easier.
Another benefit is giving us a 'military' force without actually using Cheliax's army. We'll need some muscle/show of might here and there, and Leadership provides that. Even at it's highest score, you don't really get all that much. Especially if you rule that cohorts can't come with us on the main PC mission, but are instead used like how Almagafor said.
As yet another VtM player, yes this can definitely work as a game. And there can even be a fair amount of combat so those who would like to engage in that may (duels for example: "I challenge you. If I beat your man, the mayor's daughter must marry who we choose" or some such nonsense. ). Assassinations will also be key, and those should really be handled via actual combat and rolls.
Allying with similar organizations could be important too. Prophecies of Kalistrade and the Aspis Consortium immediately come to mind. We could use them to help fund us and supply us with troops.
Of course, we would need to make it worth their while to help us, and this could give us plenty of 'normal' stuff to do, like ambush a few caravans, retrieve some lost/stolen items, etc.
Finally, personally, I love gestalt. If that's somehow a deal breaker, maybe go with a sort of half-gestlat that I've seen used elsewhere: You pick your main class, and that determines BAB, saves, HD and skill point gain. However, you get the class skills, and features of both classes.
Ie, you pick the classic Rogue/Fighter combo. If you're looking to make more of a sneaky assassin type, rogue would be your main class, and you would get it's BAB, saves, D8s and 8+Int skill points per level. But you would also get fighter bonus feats, bravery, weapon mastery, etc. And you would get both the rogue and fighter class skills.
I just don't want to start on a character until I know what resources I'll have, because that'll help determine what range of powers/skill/backstory are *possible*
Also, some idea of how to create the character, what is allowed and level would be helpful. :P
Some good ideas from Monkeygod.
I too think that permitting leadership sounds like a good idea.
Leadership really only becomes a problem if its allowed to be abused. The 'all teh crafting feats' cohort comes to mind immediately. Or a full on buff based caster that shores up your PCs weaknesses, or makes them even more badass.
If DM Ray rules that they aren't allowed to come with us PCs on the main missions, and instead must do things like lead small strike forces, stay at a base of operations and provide healing, or act as a courier tween our various allies, and we as players agree to not build broken cohorts, but rather helpful characters that can provide assistance when/where we ourselves can not, I think there shouldn't be any problem allowing Leadership.
If the GM agrees, my suggestion(one that I have used in my own game, and is also being used in a semi-similar game here on the boards) is to allow the PCs virtual Leadership, aka at 7th level we automatically gain the benefits of the feat, without having to waste a feat slot.
Perhaps normally this might be an issue, but if our cohorts and followers are mainly going to be behind the scenes, background characters, I do not see it as much of problem as it would be in a regular game.
On the note of cohorts: I always liked to find a cohort in game or design one that just kind of naturally got along with my PC and made sense for someone who would hang around and work for the more experienced PC. A squire, a majordomo, an apprentice for those with the same or similar classes to the PC. In other cases there's a link, examples include the cleric accompanying the paladin of the same faith or a pair of nature lovers (a ranger and a barbarian) who are drinking buddies in addition to being adventuring companions or even a married couple of adventurers. My favorite was the troll who accompanied my elven ranger in a Kingmaker game, ranger was head of the secret police and offered the troll a job as his enforcer, after a few years in game the troll was loyal enough to take as a cohort and started taking ranger levels himself.
Kinda discourages the item shop cohort or the super buffer, though a bard cohort can be very useful for everyone in the party.
The last game I was in like this, everyone was gestalted with Noble Scion (the PrC that gives auto-cohort) and the rule was: your cohorts could never aid another, fill in for skills, etc; people either had cohorts, or their main characters, depending on the mission and location (and cohorts generally weren't allowed to fight, either, which prevented horrible battle pileups). Cohorts, instead, provided the ability to be in two places at once (via communication spells) and also filled in niche skills/knowledge/personality/criminal contacts.
Also: the wording on Leadership explicitly mentions that followers should never actually be fighting for you. (They're also not loyal minions; just people you can set up to give small material aid, hire for the occasional menial task without doing the bookkeeping on hireling costs, house servants, etc)
A quick note on Leadership--
If it does become the most viable & playable & popular choice, I'm MUCH more likely to give everyone two PCs. Perhaps (Don't hold me to this!) a 13th level Gestalt PC and a 8th level PC. ....And depending on where & what we're doing will determine which PC you're running.
I haven't read your posts yet, so I don't know the details of what you've been saying about Leadership -- but that's my initial thought before reading your posts.
Hello GM Ray.
I am not sure if you are saying you will give PCs a second character if leadership becomes popular instead of leadership or as well as.
As a veteran GM myself, it seems to me you may be making things too complicated for yourself at the start.
4 or 5 13th level characters is a pretty formidable force w/o them being gestalt. Having each player with a 2nd PC and/or a substantial cohort running around also is most complicated. Add to that we will likely be running several schemes simultaneously in more than one country...
What I would do is have each player have one character, and err on the side of lower level to start. If leadership is allowed, the cohorts could be handled w/o using dice and full game mechanics at least for the most part.
eg The 2 PCs send their cohorts to town A to keep it safe. The other 3 send their cohorts to the B area to consolidate the taking of the area the PCs took in person.
It is of course your campaign, I just love the idea and want to play in it in an ongoing way. Having it get overwhelmingly complex is going to stop that, or could. Then again you just might be better organised than I am. :)
Stuff on your Duke
My only concern is that, as a sitting Duke in Cheliax, you would have gross responsibilities to your Duchy. You would have a massive family and a host of retainers. And equally as importantly, your House would have serious plans and ambitions and duties of its own.
So this creates the question of how malleable you are willing to be. (Note that I'd rather your PC be a minor Noble with BIG ambitions.)
Can your PC be an absentee Duke. This is something I'm not too fond of as it doesn't seem to fit with the nature of Cheliax. (Don't get me started on "Count" Varian Jeggare!)
Can your PC be somehow the black sheep of the Family? You have different goals and such than them? I don't like this too much either because, well, someone would have assassinated you by now and taken over.
Also, there are six Archduchies in Cheliax; of which one are you a Duke? (I recommend selecting one with very little if any published material, giving you some room for creativity.) But even then, we'd have to work together on your House.
....Let me ask you this: Could you see this PC (and campaign) as the prequel version of the Duke you've developed? Could this campaign be what made him the Duke you have in mind?
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The Army: The thing about claiming an area for Cheliax (or any nation) is the sign its claimed is the military moving in. You always need boots on the ground.
Of course.
But I think you're a few steps ahead of the campaign I have in mind. Once you succeed in your long-term mission, yes, Chelaxian military personnel will go to those places -- and if you've done your job well, be mostly welcomed there! Your mission is to get those people to support Cheliax. And of course you'll use all the wonderfully devilish strategies to do it.
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Warsaw Pact? .... Do we want control or annexation? The first can be done through puppets, the later requires military support, even if it's just locals we recruit and put in red and black uniforms.
I wasn't thinking of anything like the Warsaw Pact or NATO. I was thinking more like, well, a combination of "puppets" and "Locals (you) recruit." This takes time. And strategy.
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Last thing we want to do is call out who we work for.
Maybe the enemy knows Marbo the Half-Orc is a crime lord in Westcrown, but maybe he's just here to expand his black market connections in Nidal. (He's) not trying to overthrow the government; that would be silly, right? (*smiles evilly*) Our () as shadow runners, *cough* Agents of the Crown *cough* is doubt and confusion as to our intentions. Proper introductions are what you do when the enemy is bleeding out and unconscious.
Yes.
This.And then more of this.
That I can design and DM and You guys can come up with all the plans.
@Joynt Jezebel,
I'm glad you're liking this campaign idea more and more.
I'm certainly starting to get comfortable with the idea of developing it for play.
There have been worries that plagues have been part of divine retribution for the (country's) no-religion policies. Well, start more plagues. Weaken the country and its (government's) position. Muh Huh Huh.
I hadn't even thought of this as a possible strategy but it's another good plan.
Rahadoum is tricky.
They're ALL tricky
;)What are we tasked with—subverting the populace as a whole? (that will take time, a lot of effort, and probably killing off inquisitors on a nationwide scale—which is quite a bit of combat). Or just assassinating a key leader, convincing one city to accept religion on a trial basis, shifting the government towards disbanding the army or signing a first-step treaty with Cheliax?
That's what I'm making the PCs decide.
Obviously -- The First Step In The Game will be to go and get some intelligence on your first target. Taking Rahadoum as an example of the first target, visit (on some pretense) and see what you see. Get a litmus test of a particular community, and then decide if you need to start by assassinating some inquisitors, or start a plague, or manipulate some merchants, or rile up some monsters & cut off the water supply only to come in and save the day, -- or what-have-you, and then put those plans into motion.
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You can't take over a country in a year; but you can make steps, and the question then becomes what steps are we trying to accomplish.
Ain't that the truth!
As I mentioned earlier, you'll get some info and finalize your plans. Then you'll put those plans into motion. Once seeds have been sown and/or a few contacts have been made and/or events put in motion -- you go on to another nation or city-state on the list and do the same thing there. You'll go back to the first target in a while and see where you stand.