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Hi,
after searching this forum, reading rules, etc. it is still unclear how stealth (and HIPS) is meant to work. I see that there are at least 2 interpretations. Imho it should be one of these. Could you please clear my doubts and help me understand the rules. FAQ would be nice.
We are not discussing scent, tremorsense and other senses, methods of detection here
So here is the obligatory quote from the core rule book
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip
past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill
covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception
check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up
to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty.
When moving at a speed greater than half but less than
your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible
to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size
bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size
category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4,
Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses
(but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most
creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to
use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted
(such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.
While the others turn their attention from you, you can
attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved
place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10
penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least
10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and
then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty
on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow
you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check opposed by
the viewer’s Sense Motive can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people
are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth
check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate
action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged
attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on
Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on
Stealth checks if you’re moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth
checks (see Chapter 5).
The thing everyone agrees on is that if you are observed you cannot go into stealth mode, but there are ways to go around it...
Option A
You can be observed to go into stealth, but you need to have any one of these:
1) Total cover
2) Soft cover from creature at least one size larger than you with penalty (-10 unaware of you, -20 aware of you) /From Giant's hunters handbook
3) Concealment:
3.1 Light and darkness
3.1.1 In dim light if observer does not have low light vision and/or darkvision (partial concealment)
3.1.2 In darkness if observer does not have darkvision (total concealment)
3.1.3 In magical darkness if observer does not have see in darkness ability or equivalent (total concealment)
3.2 Concealment granted by spell
3.2.1 Blur
3.2.2 Fog cloud
3.2.3 Other spells that grant either concealment or conditions that grant it
3.3 Environmental effects like fog, mist,snow storm etc.
3.4 Invisibility either by spell or other ability (total concealment)
4) Possessing Hide in plain sight and meeting appropriate requirement from class (like being in favored terrain or being in dim light)
5) Possessing hellcat stealth and being in normal or bright light
6) Possessing night subdomain power "Night hunter" and observer does not have darkvision
7) By making a distraction via Bluff skill vs Sense motive
8) Another method of which I'm not aware
Option B
If you are observed you can go into stealth only if you have (I'm not going to delve into details as I did with previous option):
1 Total cover
2 Total concealment as via invisibility (example)
3 /Partial concealment or partial cover/ AND /bluff check for distraction/
4 By meeting special abilities (HIPS, Hellcat stealth, Night hunter) requirements
The biggest difference between two interpretations is that
Option A assumes line of sight is broken during stealth attempt
Option B assumes line of sight has to be broken before going into stealth (like becoming invisible) or distracting via Bluff or ignoring this rule via HIPS or Hellcat stealth.
Rules and the way how I read them support Option A, things I have in this forum support Option B, which is strange. I must be missing something.
So what is your take on this? Would be nice to see also extracts from rules (FAQ) not only opinions.
Bump. I know I'm opening a can of worms that has been already opened and wrecked havoc, but someone has to do it.
It's a bit "tl;dr". Can you condense the issue to a singe question?
Likewise. I have no idea what you're asking.
Ok, condensed version.
To enter stealth do you need to break line of sight first or line of sight is broken when you enter stealth?
Essentially is partial cover or partial concealment enough to enter stealth if you are being observed?
Ok. The simple question - by the RAW, can PC go into stealth when it has near it concealment/cover? Even if it is observed by somebody (by bluff).
It's like - PC is in zone of concealment/cover -> it is observed -> roll for diversion via bluff (stealth rules) -> stealth roll -> success bluff/success stealth -> it's in stealth? and it's not now observed by opponent (total cover/concealment - can make sneak attack).
P.S. Not a native English speaker, sorry for mistakes.
Ok, condensed version.
To enter stealth do you need to break line of sight first or line of sight is broken when you enter stealth?Essentially is partial cover or partial concealment enough to enter stealth if you are being observed?
Concealment(partial concealment and total concealment) are enough for you to try to make a stealth check. As an example if I wall into a fog cloud spell I can make a stealth check, even in the middle of combat, since it provides concealment.
Cover is the same way, but if you start out in the open, then walk behind that wall to make a stealth check people will still know you are somewhere behind the wall, bush etc. <---This assumes you end your turn behind cover.
You need to break line of sight/observation. Thats the reason for causing the distraction.
Partial cover or concealment doesn't work. Adventurers are not toddlers. They understand object permanance. They might walk into a room and not notice your feet sticking out from under the tapestry. If you walk behind the tapestry though with your feet poking out they're going to notice. You have to go "LOOK A MONKEY!" beat their sense motive, then make a stealth check at a penalty. That system wouldn't be there at all if you could just get a little concealment and stealth.
I think he may be using concealment as total concealment there.
Option 1: you spend (a standard action?) to make a bluff check and then move to concealment.
Option 2: you move to concealment and make the stealth check.
Option 1 is what the rules spell out. Why on earth would that rule ever exist as an option if option 2 existed?
You need to break line of sight/observation. Thats the reason for causing the distraction.
Partial cover or concealment doesn't work. Adventurers are not toddlers. They understand object permanance. They might walk into a room and not notice your feet sticking out from under the tapestry. If you walk behind the tapestry though with your feet poking out they're going to notice. You have to go "LOOK A MONKEY!" beat their sense motive, then make a stealth check at a penalty. That system wouldn't be there at all if you could just get a little concealment and stealth.
Could you please support your statement with some rules extracts? I understand the logic behind it, but I cannot find rules that support it...
Or is it intended to be one of "unwritten" rules of the game which is supposed to be obvious?
You need to break line of sight/observation. Thats the reason for causing the distraction.
Partial cover or concealment doesn't work. Adventurers are not toddlers. They understand object permanance. They might walk into a room and not notice your feet sticking out from under the tapestry. If you walk behind the tapestry though with your feet poking out they're going to notice. You have to go "LOOK A MONKEY!" beat their sense motive, then make a stealth check at a penalty. That system wouldn't be there at all if you could just get a little concealment and stealth.
Could you please support your statement with some rules extracts? I understand the logic behind it, but I cannot find rules that support it...
Or is it intended to be one of "unwritten" rules of the game which is supposed to be obvious?
It drops out of this line
If people are observing you using any of their senses
(but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth
Partial conealment does not stop observation by any stretch of the imagination. On a moonlit night or in fog 5 feet away i can see you there. You're being observed.
In the face of such ambiguity, rolling Stealth once you hit the bushes at least works, even if observers know which direction you went.
You are observed. You cannot stealth. That is iron clad. Special abilities to break that rule would be completely useless if you could simply move to the cover and do it anyway.
[quote=Option 1 is how you "Batman" your way out. e.g. "WTF. He asks for a coffee, and now is gone?". They can only guess as to where to start looking. Maybe he slipped into a closet, maybe he hunkered behind a potted plant. (Most times Batman is under the desk). It is harder to do, but does great at deterring pursuit.
Option 2 is how you loose a tail in a crowd, bushes, tall grass, etc. They know where to start searching, but not where you are. It is easier to do, but does little to deter pursuit.
Option 1 doesn't do a lot to get rid of persuit either. There's really only so many places you can have gone to hide.
Option 1 doesn't do a lot to get rid of persuit either. There's really only so many places you can have gone to hide.In the face of such ambiguity, rolling Stealth once you hit the bushes at least works, even if observers know which direction you went.You are observed. You cannot stealth. That is iron clad. Special abilities to break that rule would be completely useless if you could simply move to the cover and do it anyway.
[quote=Option 1 is how you "Batman" your way out. e.g. "WTF. He asks for a coffee, and now is gone?". They can only guess as to where to start looking. Maybe he slipped into a closet, maybe he hunkered behind a potted plant. (Most times Batman is under the desk). It is harder to do, but does great at deterring pursuit.
Option 2 is how you loose a tail in a crowd, bushes, tall grass, etc. They know where to start searching, but not where you are. It is easier to do, but does little to deter pursuit.
Once you hit the bushes you can make the check, if it gives you total cover. Now for partial cover I think an argument can be made that you are still observed by sight. The bluff check to is to be out in the open and still make the stealth check to get to cover.
I guess the next FAQ question is how to make a stealth check during the middle of combat, and does partial cover and partial concealment count when trying to do this.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So still no decisive answer. So FAQ is needed...
So, dear developers please state:
1)Is partial cover or partial concealment sufficient to go into stealth?
2)If yes is distraction sufficient to go into stealth without any cover, concealment?
Or blog post explaining how to use stealth in combat...
Those who are interested please hit FAQ button on this post
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Once you hit the bushes you can make the check, if it gives you total cover. Now for partial cover I think an argument can be made that you are still observed by sight. The bluff check to is to be out in the open and still make the stealth check to get to cover.
You seem to be misusing terms here. There are THREE levels of cover, not two:
Total Cover: No LOS to you.
Cover: Some LOS is blocked but at least half of you is hidden
Partial Cover: Some LOS is blocked but less than half of you is hidden.
The Stealth rules say, explicitly, that you need Cover (the middle one, half hidden) or Concealment.
So while there may be argument about whether you are still "observed" with Cover (yes, you are - if you were not then you would have Total Cover), there is no legitimate argument about whether you can use Stealth because the rules explicitly say you can. As for Partial Cover, the rules do not say that Partial Cover lets you use Stealth and since Partial Cover is defined differently from (and less than) Cover, it is fairly clear that it does not allow you to use stealth.
I guess the next FAQ question is how to make a stealth check during the middle of combat,
A good question. It's hard to do without a distraction and/or first breaking LOS. I would love it if Paizo would just write up a a big old article on the subject and and all these debates.
and does partial cover and partial concealment count when trying to do this.
They don't. At all. By RAW.
So still no decisive answer. So FAQ is needed...
So, dear developers please state:
1)Is partial cover or partial concealment sufficient to go into stealth?
2)If yes is distraction sufficient to go into stealth without any cover, concealment?Or blog post explaining how to use stealth in combat...
Those who are interested please hit FAQ button on this post
1. What's the confusion here. Partial Cover/Concealment is NOT enough to use Stealth. By RAW. See my previous post directly above this one.
2. No. Not at all. Distraction says you need to get to an unobserved place, so why would you think you can use a distraction to just stand there and disappear? You distract them and then "move (really fast)" to an unobserved place and try a Stealth check at -10. Moving to an unobserved place is part of the rule so of course you need cover or concealment.
Special abilities like HIPS can change this somewhat, but the core rules are quite clear, and each special ability is pretty clear about what it directly affects.
How exactly do you stop being observed, via sound, without making a stealth check? Total cover and total concealment do not stop sound except in extreme cases.
In all my years of playing and watching these boards, plus the stealth 2.0 playtests have shown me that it is anything but clear.
Once you hit the bushes you can make the check, if it gives you total cover. Now for partial cover I think an argument can be made that you are still observed by sight. The bluff check to is to be out in the open and still make the stealth check to get to cover.You seem to be misusing terms here. There are THREE levels of cover, not two:
Total Cover: No LOS to you.
Cover: Some LOS is blocked but at least half of you is hidden
Partial Cover: Some LOS is blocked but less than half of you is hidden.The Stealth rules say, explicitly, that you need Cover (the middle one, half hidden) or Concealment.
So while there may be argument about whether you are still "observed" with Cover (yes, you are - if you were not then you would have Total Cover), there is no legitimate argument about whether you can use Stealth because the rules explicitly say you can. As for Partial Cover, the rules do not say that Partial Cover lets you use Stealth and since Partial Cover is defined differently from (and less than) Cover, it is fairly clear that it does not allow you to use stealth.
I guess the next FAQ question is how to make a stealth check during the middle of combat,A good question. It's hard to do without a distraction and/or first breaking LOS. I would love it if Paizo would just write up a a big old article on the subject and and all these debates.
and does partial cover and partial concealment count when trying to do this.They don't. At all. By RAW.
There is also improved cover and soft cover.
How exactly do you stop being observed, via sound, without making a stealth check? Total cover and total concealment do not stop sound except in extreme cases.
In all my years of playing and watching these boards, plus the stealth 2.0 playtests have shown me that it is anything but clear.
That's why I hope people will hit FAQ button and we will get FAQ and/or blog post that explains everything.
How exactly do you stop being observed, via sound, without making a stealth check? Total cover and total concealment do not stop sound except in extreme cases.
In all my years of playing and watching these boards, plus the stealth 2.0 playtests have shown me that it is anything but clear.
You're totally correct. The following sentence from the rulebook completely destroys almost all uses of Stealth:
[quote-"SRD, Skills, Stealth"]If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth
If we take that sentence in a vacuum, then Stealth never works. You must also be silenced, also mask your scent somehow, maybe even also mask your pheromones from triggering a gustatory reaction with your observers' sense of taste, and also mask your movements from causing even the slightest breeze or tremor that they might pick up by their sense of touch.
What if we included the broader definition of of "sense"? If your enemy senses danger or feels fear or has doubts - is his intuition enough of a feeling to count as an "observation"? Are you then "observed"? By one broad definition, yes, so how do you mask that?
Forget it. Not worth the trouble.
Or, we can take the much playable definition of the sentence I quoted, especially the bit about "(but typically sight)" to mean that they really only use the ONE sense they rely on the most. For people, that means sight. In fact, for almost everything, that means sight.
This loose and playable definition is supported by other Stealth rules that say you only need cover or concealment to use Stealth. There is no rule in the book that says you also need silence to use Stealth, or scent-masking to use Stealth, or anything else. All you need to use Stealth is to block, even partially block, your observers' sight (line of sight to you).
But some creatures have unusual senses such as Scent or Tremorsense or Blindsense, etc. In those special cases, they get an extra rule to apply when you try to use Stealth around them. But that doesn't mean you MUST defeat their special sense to use Stealth because all you need is cover or concealment from their eyes to use Stealth. Although it may automatically fail around these special creatures with special senses - that doesn't stop you from using Stealth, it only stops you from being successful at it.
There is also improved cover and soft cover.
You're right.
I didn't list those because those are both corner cases with specific rules and I never see anyone confused about them because their rules are black and white.
People often use the term "partial cover" to mean "cover" as if there are only two terms, "total cover" and "partial cover". Examples of people doing this can be found in this thread as well as many others. I was simply trying to clarify that "partial cover" is not the same thing as "less than total cover" nor is it a synonym for "cover".