Hellknights on the Town

The art for the Hellknights is AMAZING. Can't wait to build a Hellknight character!

To the degree that the Hellknight Orders support Asmodeus' Thrune regime puppets in Cheliax, it would seem that they can't help but be evil in overall orientation.

How can a PC access the uncommon feats like order training or hellknight signifier dedication ?

Become a member of the Order and pass the test. It’s more a narrative thing than a mechanic one.

Hellknights have been my favorite thing in Pathfinder/Golarion since I first discovered the game. I am very glad that the little "error" made in the Core Rulebook involving Hellknights has been fixed tenfold between the Lost Omens World Guide and this preview!

What error?

Become a member of the Order and pass the test. It’s more a narrative thing than a mechanic one.

this is one of the prereq of hellknight signifier dedication. I'm not asking what are the prereqs, I'm asking how a PC can access the 2 uncommon feats. Is there a feat or something giving access to those feats?

To the degree that the Hellknight Orders support Asmodeus' Thrune regime puppets in Cheliax, it would seem that they can't help but be evil in overall orientation.

And yet there are paladins in Cheliax who somehow became Hellknights without falling.

pjrogers wrote:

To the degree that the Hellknight Orders support Asmodeus' Thrune regime puppets in Cheliax, it would seem that they can't help but be evil in overall orientation.

And yet there are paladins in Cheliax who somehow became Hellknights without falling.

If they are paladins in a Hellknight Order which clearly and explicitly supports the Thrune regime, then I can't understand why they haven't fallen. By being part of such an Order they are supporting evil.

Rysky wrote:

Become a member of the Order and pass the test. It’s more a narrative thing than a mechanic one.

this is one of the prereq of hellknight signifier dedication. I'm not asking what are the prereqs, I'm asking how a PC can access the 2 uncommon feats. Is there a feat or something giving access to those feats?

I just told you, it’s a narrative restriction.

David knott 242 wrote:

pjrogers wrote:

To the degree that the Hellknight Orders support Asmodeus' Thrune regime puppets in Cheliax, it would seem that they can't help but be evil in overall orientation.

And yet there are paladins in Cheliax who somehow became Hellknights without falling.

If they are paladins in a Hellknight Order which clearly and explicitly supports the Thrune regime, then I can't understand why they haven't fallen. By being part of such an Order they are supporting evil.

There’s not any in Order of the Rack, Chain, or Nail. The other Orders are a different story.

I'm pretty sure there are lot of Hellknights that find the upper echelons of Chellish society to be decadent, corrupt, and inefficient. They just believe the way to fix that is "lean on them harder until they behave better" rather than "replace them" which would lead to chaos.

Like if the house of Thrune were legally dissolved after triggering that clause in the Kintargo Compact, very few Hellknights would still be on Abrogail's side. This is a major problem for her, which is why she's going to tread carefully here.

I'm pretty sure there are lot of Hellknights that find the upper echelons of Chellish society to be decadent, corrupt, and inefficient. They just believe the way to fix that is "lean on them harder until they behave better" rather than "replace them" which would lead to chaos.

Like if the house of Thrune were legally dissolved after triggering that clause in the Kintargo Compact, very few Hellknights would still be on Abrogail's side. This is a major problem for her, which is why she's going to tread carefully here.

Pretty much, one of the philosophies of Hellknights is “if the law’s broke, fix it.”

Granted that does get overlooked more often than not but it is in there for the LN and LG Hellknights to pursue.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm pretty sure there are lot of Hellknights that find the upper echelons of Chellish society to be decadent, corrupt, and inefficient. They just believe the way to fix that is "lean on them harder until they behave better" rather than "replace them" which would lead to chaos.

Like if the house of Thrune were legally dissolved after triggering that clause in the Kintargo Compact, very few Hellknights would still be on Abrogail's side. This is a major problem for her, which is why she's going to tread carefully here.

Pretty much, one of the philosophies of Hellknights is “if the law’s broke, fix it.”

Granted that does get overlooked more often than not but it is in there for the LN and LG Hellknights to pursue.

1) The Law is absolute and must be obeyed.

Plus Hellknight’s approach tends to be more along the lines of hammering any square peg they find into the round hole of the law. They are the epitome of “If the only tool you have is a hammer”.

Rysky wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm pretty sure there are lot of Hellknights that find the upper echelons of Chellish society to be decadent, corrupt, and inefficient. They just believe the way to fix that is "lean on them harder until they behave better" rather than "replace them" which would lead to chaos.

Like if the house of Thrune were legally dissolved after triggering that clause in the Kintargo Compact, very few Hellknights would still be on Abrogail's side. This is a major problem for her, which is why she's going to tread carefully here.

Pretty much, one of the philosophies of Hellknights is “if the law’s broke, fix it.”

Granted that does get overlooked more often than not but it is in there for the LN and LG Hellknights to pursue.

1) The Law is absolute and must be obeyed.

2) If the Law is wrong, see step 1. You may seek changes to the Law, in the lawful manner allowed, but it must be obeyed until they are made. Your feelings and reason are not above the Law.

Plus Hellknight’s approach tends to be more along the lines of hammering any square peg they find into the round hole of the law. They are the epitome of “If the only tool you have is a hammer”.

Not really.

The only square peg round hole thing about Hellknights is all the people who really really want them to be one-dimensional moustache twirling Default Evil KOS Organisation, because every setting needs its Cobra/Deceptions.

(Not like that field is already crowded by Whispering Way, Veil Masters, Devout Followers of Folca and 5884 other Please Stop Coming Up With Chaotic Neutral Reasons To Join Us It Really Makes No Sense Organisations)

Kind of the same issue as with folks projecting Harpers on Pathfinder Society.

and 5884 other Please Stop Coming Up With Chaotic Neutral Reasons To Join Us It Really Makes No Sense Organisations)

So glad they got rid of the one step rule for Deities.

So so glad.

Gaterie wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Become a member of the Order and pass the test. It’s more a narrative thing than a mechanic one.

this is one of the prereq of hellknight signifier dedication. I'm not asking what are the prereqs, I'm asking how a PC can access the 2 uncommon feats. Is there a feat or something giving access to those feats?

I just told you, it’s a narrative restriction.

No, this is a rule restriction: "passed the hellknight test" is a prereq of the feat hellknight signifier dedication. This means, the character must have passed the hellknight test before he can take the feat. You can check the CRB, this is the rule about prereqs.

What i'm asking is how a PC can bypass the "uncommon" restriction - a PC can't select an uncommon option except if another option allows him to take it; this restriction comes from the "uncommon" tag, not from the prereqs of the feat. Filling the prereqs doesn't remove the tag - and the rules tied to the tag.

CanisDirus wrote:

Hellknights have been my favorite thing in Pathfinder/Golarion since I first discovered the game. I am very glad that the little "error" made in the Core Rulebook involving Hellknights has been fixed tenfold between the Lost Omens World Guide and this preview!

What error?

Several different orders of the mercenaries known collectively as Hellknights operate in Avistan, with most of their number stationed in the nation of Cheliax. These mercenaries see the law of the land as inviolate and offer their services as enforcers to any who can pay their prices.

My roommate (who loves Hellknights as much as I do) and I read that and both exclaimed in horror, "what did they do to our Hellknights? They turned them into mercenaries?!"

We both felt much better after the release of the Lost Omens World Guide and this blog post, though.

Every thing we've read (and geeked out talking about with Wes Schneider at Gen Cons of old) suggests that being a Hellknight is a calling on the same level of emotional investment as being a paladin/champion.

(Side note, hoping we see the Neutral versions of the Champion class in the not too distant future, too!)

pjrogers wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

pjrogers wrote:

To the degree that the Hellknight Orders support Asmodeus' Thrune regime puppets in Cheliax, it would seem that they can't help but be evil in overall orientation.

And yet there are paladins in Cheliax who somehow became Hellknights without falling.

If they are paladins in a Hellknight Order which clearly and explicitly supports the Thrune regime, then I can't understand why they haven't fallen. By being part of such an Order they are supporting evil.

There’s not any in Order of the Rack, Chain, or Nail. The other Orders are a different story.

Hear, hear.

Pyre, Torrent, and Pike are great examples that are easy fits for paladins/champions. There are canon LG npcs in the Order of the Nail, and Godclaw lends itself to a lot of versatility from its members, as well.

No, this is a rule restriction: "passed the hellknight test" is a prereq of the feat hellknight signifier dedication. This means, the character must have passed the hellknight test before he can take the feat. You can check the CRB, this is the rule about prereqs.

What i'm asking is how a PC can bypass the "uncommon" restriction - a PC can't select an uncommon option except if another option allows him to take it; this restriction comes from the "uncommon" tag, not from the prereqs of the feat. Filling the prereqs doesn't remove the tag - and the rules tied to the tag.

Presumably it works similarly to the Firebrands - fulfilling the narrative side of things changes access:

Many of the options featured in the organizations section of the Character Guide are uncommon or rarer options. Some of these, like the snapleaf above, are widespread enough that you can acquire them even without a connection to the organization. For those that are less common, it’s generally a simple matter of joining up with the organization. Each section features details on how to join these groups, allowing GMs and players to work together to get characters membership as their respective stories allow. For the Firebrands, it’s actually a simple process: go somewhere that has a lot of people and publicly declare yourself a Firebrand. You did it! You’re a first mark Firebrand! Moving up in the ranks is a bit tougher than that, though. You have to gain a reputation and eventually have to have a recognized second mark Firebrand officially accept you as a Firebrand. Once this happens, you have become a second mark and gain access to most of the section’s rules options, including the new Firebrand braggart archetype!

Except instead of building a reptuation and getting accepted by a second mark Firebrand, you're beating a devil in single combat!

So how would one go about becoming a Hellknight in PFS Organised Play?

I presume taking the slotless boons Home Region (or Multicultural Training if you already took a different Home Region), and then Secondary Initiation is a start?

What about passing the Hellknight test?

(also, on a slightly unrelated example, can we use Backgrounds from Lost Omens World Guide? Or do we need to do something?)

Pyre, Torrent, and Pike are great examples that are easy fits for paladins/champions. There are canon LG npcs in the Order of the Nail, and Godclaw lends itself to a lot of versatility from its members, as well.

The Order of the Pyre takes the position that "whatever does not mesh with Chelish thinking or does not have an existing role within society as dangerous." This is a Chelish society ruled by a pawn of Asmodeus.

The Order of the Torrent has apparently been destroyed by the Order of the Rack.

The Order of the Pike is a minor order with a limited mission and geographic operating area.

The Order of the Nailmainly operates outside of Cheliax and were quite happy to help with the kidnapping and imprisonment of Zarta Dralneen because she was viewed as a threat to the Thrune regime.

Finally, the Order of the Godclaw is in direct conflict with the Church of Iomedae and her followers which would seem to give lie to the argument that it represents LG values and interests.

The vast majority of the Hellknight Orders and their Hellknight members are at best Cheliax's Wehrmacht and are more commonly it's SS.

That info on the Order of the Torrent is at the beginning of Hell’s Rebels. They’re doing just fine now.

...

See, this is a huge problem with the alignment system.

pjrogers wrote:

...

See, this is a huge problem with the alignment system.

1) You make an assumption there is only one way of LG thinking and all LGs share the same values and approaches.
2) If we ignore deus-ex-machina whatever-LG-does-is-good, the way paladins / champions are always described as behaving, Hellknights supporting Thrune would be FULL of paladins.

?

Saros Palanthios wrote:

CanisDirus wrote:

Hellknights have been my favorite thing in Pathfinder/Golarion since I first discovered the game. I am very glad that the little "error" made in the Core Rulebook involving Hellknights has been fixed tenfold between the Lost Omens World Guide and this preview!

What error?

CRB p.436 wrote:

Several different orders of the mercenaries known collectively as Hellknights operate in Avistan, with most of their number stationed in the nation of Cheliax. These mercenaries see the law of the land as inviolate and offer their services as enforcers to any who can pay their prices.

My roommate (who loves Hellknights as much as I do) and I read that and both exclaimed in horror, "what did they do to our Hellknights? They turned them into mercenaries?!"

We both felt much better after the release of the Lost Omens World Guide and this blog post, though.

Every thing we've read (and geeked out talking about with Wes Schneider at Gen Cons of old) suggests that being a Hellknight is a calling on the same level of emotional investment as being a paladin/champion.

(Side note, hoping we see the Neutral versions of the Champion class in the not too distant future, too!)

While you’re not far off on it being a “calling” that doesn’t make the Hellknights not be mercenaries, which they’ve always been.

Rysky wrote:

Gaterie wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Become a member of the Order and pass the test. It’s more a narrative thing than a mechanic one.

this is one of the prereq of hellknight signifier dedication. I'm not asking what are the prereqs, I'm asking how a PC can access the 2 uncommon feats. Is there a feat or something giving access to those feats?

I just told you, it’s a narrative restriction.

No, this is a rule restriction: "passed the hellknight test" is a prereq of the feat hellknight signifier dedication. This means, the character must have passed the hellknight test before he can take the feat. You can check the CRB, this is the rule about prereqs.

What i'm asking is how a PC can bypass the "uncommon" restriction - a PC can't select an uncommon option except if another option allows him to take it; this restriction comes from the "uncommon" tag, not from the prereqs of the feat. Filling the prereqs doesn't remove the tag - and the rules tied to the tag.

Again, it’s a narrative restriction. The Rarity tag is prevent you from handwaving the narrative restrictions unless your GM okayed it. Once you’ve met the narrative and mechanical requirements you’re good.

If you meet the prerequisites you can take it. For another example, in the Adventures thus far there’s Uncommon items you can find. You don’t need a Feat to pick the item up and use them, when you find them you got them.

pjrogers wrote:

...

See, this is a huge problem with the alignment system.

1) You make an assumption there is only one way of LG thinking and all LGs share the same values and approaches.
2) If we ignore deus-ex-machina whatever-LG-does-is-good, the way paladins / champions are always described as behaving, Hellknights supporting Thrune would be FULL of paladins.

I make the assumption that lawful GOOD characters would not want to directly or indirectly support a Chelish regime that is a pawn of Asmodeus.

While you’re not far off on it being a “calling” that doesn’t make the Hellknights not be mercenaries, which they’ve always been.

I'm not super familiar with the lore (especially older lore), I've yet to see any indication anywhere they are mercenaries? They work to preserve and further law, and while they do accept money from various rulers/states to help out, this is always in furtherance of their own ideological goals.

Can you please point out more specifically why you think they're mercenaries?

I make the assumption that lawful GOOD characters would not want to directly or indirectly support a Chelish regime that is a pawn of Asmodeus.

Well, as I said, that's a problem of the alignment system. However, even within that scope, previous poster pointed out only some of the orders support Chelish regime in significant manner.

Plus, Lawful Good may not always mean Lawful Stupid, but in my experience with paladins, usually does.

pjrogers wrote:

I make the assumption that lawful GOOD characters would not want to directly or indirectly support a Chelish regime that is a pawn of Asmodeus.

Well, as I said, that's a problem of the alignment system.

I'm not sure I follow your argument here.

However, even within that scope, previous poster pointed out only some of the orders support Chelish regime in significant manner.

I think it's more accurate to say a significant majority of the orders support the Chelish regime.

I'm not sure I follow your argument here.

Well, there isn't one single definition of "good", that's the thing. Ethics is a very, very complicated subject, and we do know a lot of it depends on the cultural context.

In this specific case, a paladin might consider "good" to be supporting the current rulers even if they find them distatesful, because alternative is chaos and worse disorder. That paladin might switch allegiance if a reasonable contender arises, but otherwise they will support a state because they it as less evil than the alternative.
Note that most states worship a variety of gods, and most paladins would find that quite distatesful if they were to be true to their codes. That's kinda the problem with paladins. They're monotheists in a polytheistic world.

I think it's more accurate to say a significant majority of the orders support the Chelish regime.

Sure, but a Paladin might be working in a different geographic area in one of the orders that are not so tied to the regime.

Rysky wrote:

While you’re not far off on it being a “calling” that doesn’t make the Hellknights not be mercenaries, which they’ve always been.

I'm not super familiar with the lore (especially older lore), I've yet to see any indication anywhere they are mercenaries? They work to preserve and further law, and while they do accept money from various rulers/states to help out, this is always in furtherance of their own ideological goals.

Can you please point out more specifically why you think they're mercenaries?

The Hellknights and their vision of order owe allegiance to no single nation. While most of their grim citadels lie within the borders of Cheliax, they do not serve that nation and their sense of order is derived from a compilation of severe strictures known as the Measure and the Chain. In troops or alone, Hellknights travel across the Inner Sea region hunting fugitives, solving crimes, and imposing order upon wilder lands. Rulers or law enforcers in need of aid—and who willingly pay to support the knights’ battles—might also summon them to particular sites where lawlessness reigns.

Most of these appeals to hire the mercenary order go ignored, as the Hellknights simply can’t be bothered with every minor lawbreaker or escaped prisoner. Truly unique or innovative crimes, however, stand a chance of capturing the Hellknights’ attention. In such cases, a single fugitive hunter is typically dispatched to evaluate the request and, if the crime and criminal are deemed worthy, to bring the offender to justice. As such assignments become matters of honor for Chain Hellknights, they approach them with the utmost seriousness and prove dogged in their pursuit. From the outset of her quest, a Hellknight of the Chain insists upon receiving a fee and the right to ultimately choose how her captive will be incarcerated. If the Hellknight deems no local institution fit to hold her prisoner, she can choose to return to Citadel Gheradesca and imprison her detainee there—a fate most consider to be worse than death.

Most members of the Order of the Chain are fighters stationed as guards at Gheradesca. Player or nonplayer characters, though, might have been singled out for their keen minds and so might enjoy special dispensation to train and quest as mercenary fugitive hunters.

Settlements dealing with dangerous cults or threatened by zealots often reach out to the Order of the Pyre, hiring the mercenary knights to restore a community’s faith.

The senator helped the order promote its services as mercenary assassin-hunters, and by the time the Chelish Civil War ended, the Order of the Scar was firmly entrenched in Taldor. […] Today, the mercenary Order of the Scar works almost entirely on retainer to wealthy individuals paranoid about assassination.

The Hellknights typical methods seem to indicate that they receive most of their income from being hired as law-enforcement officials. It's less clear what laws exactly they enforce, since while they have the whole 'Measure and Chain' thing, it's also been stated that they enforce the laws of whoever hired them, but can also be hired by non-governmental officials. So the exact hierarchy of whose laws they enforce is unclear.

Path of the Hellknight pg 4 wrote:

The Hellknights and their vision of order owe allegiance to no single nation. While most of their grim citadels lie within the borders of Cheliax, they do not serve that nation and their sense of order is derived from a compilation of severe strictures known as the Measure and the Chain. In troops or alone, Hellknights travel across the Inner Sea region hunting fugitives, solving crimes, and imposing order upon wilder lands. Rulers or law enforcers in need of aid—and who willingly pay to support the knights’ battles—might also summon them to particular sites where lawlessness reigns.

This does not say anything about being mercenaries. You can work for different rulers without being a mercenary. Mercenary is one who works for gold, not ideals.

Path of the Hellknight pg 12 wrote:

Most of these appeals to hire the mercenary order go ignored, as the Hellknights simply can’t be bothered with every minor lawbreaker or escaped prisoner. Truly unique or innovative crimes, however, stand a chance of capturing the Hellknights’ attention. In such cases, a single fugitive hunter is typically dispatched to evaluate the request and, if the crime and criminal are deemed worthy, to bring the offender to justice. As such assignments become matters of honor for Chain Hellknights, they approach them with the utmost seriousness and prove dogged in their pursuit. From the outset of her quest, a Hellknight of the Chain insists upon receiving a fee and the right to ultimately choose how her captive will be incarcerated. If the Hellknight deems no local institution fit to hold her

...

These on the other hand do support the mercenary monicker somewhat more. Especially this last bodyguard order. Although I'd still be iffy about calling them mercenaries. Getting paid is not mercenary by itself; mercenaries are about the gold alone.

What classes can Hellknight signifers be? So far only Clerics get Proficiency in Heavy Armor.

What classes can Hellknight signifers be? So far only Clerics get Proficiency in Heavy Armor.

You can do it with a Human Wizard at minimum levels if you devote all resources to getting Heavy Armour proficiency.

Other races need to wait for level 9 to get the 3rd Armour Proficiency, and then they can take Armiger on level 10, followed by Signifier on level 12.

Also note that Human Wizards can only join Order of the Gate, as they have no way to gain other Weapon Proficiencies.
Non-human Wizards can potentially use their racial weapon familiarity feats to get access to some other orders.

So how would one go about becoming a Hellknight in PFS Organised Play?

I presume taking the slotless boons Home Region (or Multicultural Training if you already took a different Home Region), and then Secondary Initiation is a start?

What about passing the Hellknight test?

(also, on a slightly unrelated example, can we use Backgrounds from Lost Omens World Guide? Or do we need to do something?)

Question bump.

This does not say anything about being mercenaries. You can work for different rulers without being a mercenary. Mercenary is one who works for gold, not ideals.

These on the other hand do support the mercenary monicker somewhat more. Especially this last bodyguard order. Although I'd still be iffy about calling them mercenaries. Getting paid is not mercenary by itself; mercenaries are about the gold alone.

Hellknights do seem to put ideals above the gold, at least as a organisation...

I think they're using the noun (a soldier hired to fight in a foreign army) definition rather than the adjective (serving merely for pay or sordid advantage) definition of the word.

They're law-enforcement personnel who's primary method of funding comes from being hired to enforce other's laws. That their ideals come before gold (presumably) doesn't particularly invalidate their mercenary status. Many mercenary companies (both modern and historical) will have a codified set of rules detailing what types of jobs they will and won't do that they will at least mostly adhere to.

They're law-enforcement personnel who's primary method of funding comes from being hired to enforce other's laws.

+1

That their ideals come before gold (presumably) doesn't particularly invalidate their mercenary status. Many mercenary companies (both modern and historical) will have a codified set of rules detailing what types of jobs they will and won't do that they will at least mostly adhere to.

But those mercenary companies have rules about how they will earn the money. The goal is still to earn money. That's the difference with Hellknights.

Hellknights goal is to uphold the law. They just also insist they are properly paid to so. That does not make them mercenaries, just people who refuse to be exploited by the ruling classes.

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

They're law-enforcement personnel who's primary method of funding comes from being hired to enforce other's laws.

+1

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

That their ideals come before gold (presumably) doesn't particularly invalidate their mercenary status. Many mercenary companies (both modern and historical) will have a codified set of rules detailing what types of jobs they will and won't do that they will at least mostly adhere to.

But those mercenary companies have rules about how they will earn the money. The goal is still to earn money. That's the difference with Hellknights.

Hellknights goal is to uphold the law. They just also insist they are properly paid to so. That does not make them mercenaries, just people who refuse to be exploited by the ruling classes.

I just don't see that as enough of a difference that calling them mercenary is inaccurate.

pjrogers wrote:

I'm not sure I follow your argument here.

Well, there isn't one single definition of "good", that's the thing. Ethics is a very, very complicated subject, and we do know a lot of it depends on the cultural context.

On one level, I'd agree with this position. On the other, I can't thing of any "good" character in a Pathfinder/D&D context who would be ok with legally torturing political opponents to death (see this backstory of a Hellknight NPC)

In this specific case, a paladin might consider "good" to be supporting the current rulers even if they find them distatesful, because alternative is chaos and worse disorder. That paladin might switch allegiance if a reasonable contender arises, but otherwise they will support a state because they it as less evil than the alternative.

This is assuming that "good" and "law" are both equally important to a particular paladin. I think for paladins of Iomedae, to give one example, good is more important that law. Good is the end and law is the means. I think it's notable that the new alignment restrictions on followers of Iomedae don't allow followers to be LN but do allow them to be NG. Also, it seems as though followers of Iomedae, including LG paladins, are often in the forefront of opposition to the Thrune regime.

pjrogers wrote:

I think it's more accurate to say a significant majority of the orders support the Chelish regime.

Sure, but a Paladin might be working in a different geographic area in one of the orders that are not so tied to the regime.

You're a member of a lawful organization if you're Hellknight. You're going to be following its rules and seeking to advance its goals not matter where you are.

On one level, I'd agree with this position. On the other, I can't thing of any "good" character in a Pathfinder/D&D context who would be ok with legally torturing political opponents to death (see this backstory of a Hellknight NPC)

I can think of a plenty if they thought that opponent deserved it. Think of all the Orc (and previously Goblin) villages exterminated without mercy.

This is assuming that "good" and "law" are both equally important to a particular paladin. I think for paladins of Iomedae, to give one example, good is more important that law. Good is the end and law is the means. I think it's notable that the new alignment restrictions on followers of Iomedae don't allow followers to be LN but do allow them to be NG.

Sure, but it's also going to vary by god and also by individual paladin.

Also, it seems as though followers of Iomedae, including LG paladins, are often in the forefront of opposition to the Thrune regime.

Entirely possible. Doesn't mean ALL paladins are equally likely to support Hellknights. But some? Why not.

You're a member of a lawful organization if you're Hellknight. You're going to be following its rules and seeking to advance its goals not matter where you are.

Sure, but supporting House Thrune is not really core principle of the Hellknights. Many of the Orders support them, but even then, is it truly their principle or just the current situation? As someone noted, if House Thrune broke the pact, Hellknights would likely stop supporting them (well, most would stop, some would continue, fracturing of the organisation).

Ah we hit the “it’s not only okay but Good to murder people because of what they look like” stage

Drink!

One question that should be raised about followers of Iomedae in Cheliax is whether significant numbers of them did oppose the Thrune regime during the War of the Glorious Reclamation. Given that Queen Abrogail did not outlaw their faith, I suspect that they must not have given much support to the revolution/invasion. She certainly would have outlawed that faith if submitting to her rule literally went against their religion.

Ah we hit the “it’s not only okay but Good to murder people because of what they look like” stage

I was arguing against this mentality. -.-

Anyway, a question for the knowledgeable out there. Ravounel - how are they standing with Hellknights? Could they be trying to recover some loyalties calling on their historical ties to old Cheliax?

I am sure that Ravounel is fine with the Order of the Torrent.

Other orders may have more of a challenge in (re)gaining acceptance there.

Stuff

If you are interested in reading up on, and debating, Hellknights, I'd strongly recommend my personal favorite book that Paizo has ever published, Path of the Hellknight. While it's true that some of the contributors to the wiki are Paizo authors, it is still a "wiki" and is neither comprehensive nor canon.

I also cannot speak for Paizo in any way, shape, or form, but I'd personally like to recommend against making certain comparisons that you bordered on doing in your post.

The Order of the Nailmainly operates outside of Cheliax and were quite happy to help with the kidnapping and imprisonment of Zarta Dralneen because she was viewed as a threat to the Thrune regime.

One specific note, here. Zarta Dralneen was arrested from the Chelaxian embassy (Chelaxian soil, by law), on lawful orders (insofar as the Order of the Nail knew at the time) from the Chelaxian government. When evidence was presented to the Order of the Nail that those orders were based on lies (note - the orders were still lawful), the Lictor of the Nail himself authorized her immediate release.

One other thing to the general question at hand. There are numerous paladins as part of numerous Hellknight Orders in published Paizo books. Because the authors, designers, and developers are the actual authority on what works and doesn't work on the world of Golarion; that alone should discount the argument that paladins cannot also be Hellknights.

Kinda surprised that Signifier Dedication doesn't end up advancing heavy armor at all.

I was hoping Hellknight would be a good alternative way to get heavy armor on characters who don't normally, but it looks like that might not be the case.

If you meet the prerequisites you can take it. For another example, in the Adventures thus far there’s Uncommon items you can find. You don’t need a Feat to pick the item up and use them, when you find them you got them.

I think the point they're trying to make is that there's no access clause for the feat. Not really relevant because a GM who'd let someone take the hellknight test and then refuse to let them buy the feat sounds like the sort of person who's just screwing with their players and probably indicative of a lot of other problems.

Again, it’s a narrative restriction. The Rarity tag is prevent you from handwaving the narrative restrictions unless your GM okayed it. Once you’ve met the narrative and mechanical requirements you’re good.

If you meet the prerequisites you can take it. For another example, in the Adventures thus far there’s Uncommon items you can find. You don’t need a Feat to pick the item up and use them, when you find them you got them.

... I guess we aren't talking about the same thing?

Re-read the feat "hellknight signifier dedication". There's a line called "prerequisites" - at the beginning of the feat, before the description. Among the prerequisites, there is "passed the hellknight test". This means having passed the hellknight test is a prerequisites of the feat. This is a mechanical requirement - according to the rules, you must meet every prerequisite before you select the feat. The "uncommon" tag has nothing to do with this - there isn't any rule saying you can ignore the prerequisites of a feat with the "uncommon tag".

Saying the DM may let you ignore the requirement of the hellknight test is the same as saying the DM may allow a chaotic character without the armiger dedication to take the signifier dedication: while technically true, this has nothing to do with the rules, this has nothing to do with the "uncommon" rules, and this has everything to do with houserule. eg, in PFS the DM can't allow you ignore any feat prerequisite, be it an alignment restriction or the hellknight test.

In the other hand, the rules say a player can't select an uncommon option, except if:
1/ either he has another option granting him access to the uncommon option.
2/ either the DM allows him to take this option.

So my question is about the 1/ : is there an option allowing the PC to take the signifier dedication? eg my DM usually doesn't allow any uncommon option. Again, this has nothing to do with the prerequisites of the feat (I'm well aware my PC must meet the prerequisites of the feat), this has nothing to do with the fact a DM may change the rules (I'm well aware a DM can create houserules to change the prerequisites of a feat), this has everything to do with the uncommon tag and the corresponding rule.

Kinda surprised that Signifier Dedication doesn't end up advancing heavy armor at all.

I was hoping Hellknight would be a good alternative way to get heavy armor on characters who don't normally, but it looks like that might not be the case.

Rysky wrote:

If you meet the prerequisites you can take it. For another example, in the Adventures thus far there’s Uncommon items you can find. You don’t need a Feat to pick the item up and use them, when you find them you got them.

I think the point they're trying to make is that there's no access clause for the feat. Not really relevant because a GM who'd let someone take the hellknight test and then refuse to let them buy the feat sounds like the sort of person who's just screwing with their players and probably indicative of a lot of other problems.

Precisely. There's no "access" clause because the access is narrative based.