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The Map Folio isn’t showing as an unlockable as part of the campaign? Unless it’s part of the flip-mats?

The Map Folio isn’t showing as an unlockable as part of the campaign? Unless it’s part of the flip-mats?

It just hasn't been uncovered yet... :)

Thank you, Jeff for answering all of our questions! :-)

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Thank you, Jeff for answering all of our questions! :-)

90% funded!

Happy to help, Marco!

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Would it be possible to get a slipcase that will fit all three books? Main book, companion guide and conversion guide?

JoelF847 wrote:

Well I'm glad to see the 1e conversion guide added to bring PF1e parity to DnD 5e. That being said I wish that there was instead simply a 5e and 1e version of the main hardcover, and not have the conversion guides. I get that the bigger book is more cost effective with a single larger print run, but it's not as customer friendly of an option. I dont expect this wish will come to pass but wanted to share my preference in case there's a way for that to happen.

If there were a 1e fully integrated hardcover, I'd back in a second, but as is with the clunkiness and extra cost of a second book I'm on the fence, leaning against backing.

Unfortunately the workload of making 3x 576pg books that could grow to as much as 720pg is a massive amount of work and we'd have to harpoon half of our 2020 production schedule to pull them off. We'd also need similar campaigns for each edition's book since the costs to make them are very very high.

That's why we choose to go the Bestiary route. It provides enough of the info to run the adventure without jeopardizing our 2020 release schedule.

But you aren’t making 3 different 576 page books (or 720 page). You are creating 3 different stat blocks (which you are essentially doing anyways due to the besitiearies) with most if not all of the descriptive text the same. You are doing more layout for sure. I am a 5E player/DM that buys a fair amount of Pathfinder modules and converts them but this excuse doesn’t pass the smell test. I have seen many Kickstarters that produce books for multiple editions and you are not even doing the 5E conversion. I get that it is a lot of work but charging me $115 for the $80 I want is not a good business plan or test of what the demand is for 5E products.

Would it be possible to get a slipcase that will fit all three books? Main book, companion guide and conversion guide?

Unfortunately no, the slipcase will only fit the two main books.

But you aren’t making 3 different 576 page books (or 720 page). You are creating 3 different stat blocks (which you are essentially doing anyways due to the besitiearies) with most if not all of the descriptive text the same. You are doing more layout for sure. I am a 5E player/DM that buys a fair amount of Pathfinder modules and converts them but this excuse doesn’t pass the smell test. I have seen many Kickstarters that produce books for multiple editions and you are not even doing the 5E conversion. I get that it is a lot of work but charging me $115 for the $80 I want is not a good business plan or test of what the demand is for 5E products.

While you think that making the statblocks is the main issue, from what I learned in the last couple of years, making the layout is really just as hard. Now, in this case it would not only be extra work to make 3 versions of the layout with different statblock lengths, Paizo would (if they would do it) probably look to have the pages have the same content as to be able to reference by pagenumber and not have to worry that page 73 in the 2e book is page 70 in the 1e and 72 or 74 in the 5e variant.

I think the current solution is the best, and most feasible, for most people. If you feel that 115$ is asking too much for you, you don't have to pledge.

While you think that making the statblocks is the main issue, from what I learned in the last couple of years, making the layout is really just as hard. Now, in this case it would not only be extra work to make 3 versions of the layout with different statblock lengths, Paizo would (if they would do it) probably look to have the pages have the same content as to be able to reference by pagenumber and not have to worry that page 73 in the 2e book is page 70 in the 1e and 72 or 74 in the 5e variant.

They could just talk to Frog God Games, a much smaller company, who regulary has run and fulfilled Kickstarters for three different systems, including PF1 and 5E.

Franz Lunzer wrote:

While you think that making the statblocks is the main issue, from what I learned in the last couple of years, making the layout is really just as hard. Now, in this case it would not only be extra work to make 3 versions of the layout with different statblock lengths, Paizo would (if they would do it) probably look to have the pages have the same content as to be able to reference by pagenumber and not have to worry that page 73 in the 2e book is page 70 in the 1e and 72 or 74 in the 5e variant.

They could just talk to Frog God Games, a much smaller company, who regulary has run and fulfilled Kickstarters for three different systems, including PF1 and 5E.

I’m a big FGG fan, but there have been plenty of examples from them where mechanics from one system bleed over into the other (Swords and Wizardry products mentioning skill checks, for example). I’ve had similar experiences with 5E/Starfinder dual releases or 5E/PF books which include “advantage” within the body of the text.

When it comes to “we’re releasing this for multiple systems!” it’s easy to do quickly or well, but my experience is that nobody ever manages both.

I suspect that Paizo designers frantically getting their heads around the new system are not going to want to simultaneously be reworking material for PF1.

I'm satisfied with the Pathfinder Bestiary. Converting the rest to Pathfinder shouldn't be too difficult. I'm glad Paizo threw some kind of bone to the dogs that have been eating in their backyard for the past ten years or more.

Samy wrote:

Would it be possible to get a slipcase that will fit all three books? Main book, companion guide and conversion guide?

Unfortunately no, the slipcase will only fit the two main books.

I didn't mean shoving the three books into the slipcase for the two books. I meant having a separate option for a three-book slipcase as an add-on order for any cost, say $50 or $2000? Would the design work that would go into extending the slipcase by an inch or two cost that much? Since due to crowdfunding you could set the price anywhere you felt it would be worth it, and you would only print to order so no losses either.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Fumarole wrote:

Does anyone know if the print versions of the books will be for sale once they're in the wild, or will PDFs be the only option then?

I'd say unlikely due to print run costs. There might be room for extras, but the best way to secure a hard copy is to participate in the crowdfunding.

Nope, Jeff Alvarez answered my question:

Will these books also be available from www.paizo.com or in FLG stores after the backers have received their copies?

Yes, *most* everything from the crowdfunding will be available at both.

Ah, I should have known. It makes sense to keep it in stock to support 2E going forward, as opposed to the playtest books.

But you aren’t making 3 different 576 page books (or 720 page). You are creating 3 different stat blocks (which you are essentially doing anyways due to the besitiearies) with most if not all of the descriptive text the same. You are doing more layout for sure. I am a 5E player/DM that buys a fair amount of Pathfinder modules and converts them but this excuse doesn’t pass the smell test. I have seen many Kickstarters that produce books for multiple editions and you are not even doing the 5E conversion. I get that it is a lot of work but charging me $115 for the $80 I want is not a good business plan or test of what the demand is for 5E products.

As part of my job I provide tech support for clients who do layout and design for an mechanical engineering magazine. For you to downplay how a few changes can throw off the exisiting layout and having seen first hand the gymnastics that come into play to sort those issues out to still create a viable publication? Again, I've seen the work that goes into the design and layout of a publication/magazing/document.

I have a fair amount of FFG products, before I stopped supporting them as a company, and while not bashing thier content their presentation doenst even come close to what we expect from Paizo. I think the words "no-frills" comes to mind.

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Samy wrote:

Would it be possible to get a slipcase that will fit all three books? Main book, companion guide and conversion guide?

Unfortunately no, the slipcase will only fit the two main books.

I didn't mean shoving the three books into the slipcase for the two books. I meant having a separate option for a three-book slipcase as an add-on order for any cost, say $50 or $2000? Would the design work that would go into extending the slipcase by an inch or two cost that much? Since due to crowdfunding you could set the price anywhere you felt it would be worth it, and you would only print to order so no losses either.

Hey Samy, it's not that easy. Each product we manufacture has printing minimums and if we don't think we can hit those, then it doesn't make sense to offer the item. Unfortunately adding in a second slipcase size into the equation just isn't something we feel confident we can produce for the audience at a price that makes sense.

They could just talk to Frog God Games, a much smaller company, who regulary has run and fulfilled Kickstarters for three different systems, including PF1 and 5E.

I don't think that will happen any time soon.

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Most of that information will already exist within the pages of the original PDFs. It would be cost prohibitive for them to do another full size book as stated by Jeff Alvarez above.

Hey Jeff, I do have a question. I have a friend who would love to pledge, but doesn't want PDFs, any chance at a Tier/Tiers for people that just want the books?

Hey Jeff, I do have a question. I have a friend who would love to pledge, but doesn't want PDFs, any chance at a Tier/Tiers for people that just want the books?

Hey Cori Marie, there are two options for your friend, they can either back the crowdfunding and get the print books at these prices (and the PDFs too) or they can wait for the actual release and buy them then. We haven't nailed down the final MSRP yet for the books but I wager that they will be at least the $80 price in the campaign or more. If we hit our maximum goals, the AP book grows from 576 to 720 pages so that's a LOT of book for the money.

Hope this helps!

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

I believe it said that the Bestiary would have tips tricks and other conversions for either 5e or PF1e depending on which one you get.

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

I honestly would prefer to have a nice, hardcover 1e Kingmaker AP book just like D&D fans are getting for 5e, but I understand it is something Paizo feels is not feasible (financially and/or otherwise). Disappointing, but a free (or very cheap) PDF download would work for me.

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

I honestly would prefer to have a nice, hardcover 1e Kingmaker AP book just like D&D fans are getting for 5e, but I understand it is something Paizo feels is not feasible (financially and/or otherwise). Disappointing, but a free (or very cheap) PDF download would work for me.

5E is getting the same thing as PF1. A bestiary addition to the main book.

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

I honestly would prefer to have a nice, hardcover 1e Kingmaker AP book just like D&D fans are getting for 5e, but I understand it is something Paizo feels is not feasible (financially and/or otherwise). Disappointing, but a free (or very cheap) PDF download would work for me.

Hey Hobbun, The updates I was referring to would be Game On crowdfunding updates for backers and those are typically like blogs that explain how the process is going and how the books are working out. Not actual content but updates as to what content is making it into the books...that kind of thing. Hope that makes more sense.

Hobbun wrote:

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

I honestly would prefer to have a nice, hardcover 1e Kingmaker AP book just like D&D fans are getting for 5e, but I understand it is something Paizo feels is not feasible (financially and/or otherwise). Disappointing, but a free (or very cheap) PDF download would work for me.

5E is getting the same thing as PF1. A bestiary addition to the main book.

Correct, both 1E and 5E will be getting similar treatments.

Another level up has been revealed: at $200k the main book expands to 592 pages with the addition of "The Cursed King" epilogue taking the adventure path to level 20

I'm satisfied with the Pathfinder Bestiary. Converting the rest to Pathfinder shouldn't be too difficult. I'm glad Paizo threw some kind of bone to the dogs that have been eating in their backyard for the past ten years or more.

I am one of these dogs and yet the PF2 offer was good enough for me.

I am happy that Paizo chose to offer something for those who will stay PF1 and not go PF2.

But truth be told not all those who were long-time PF1 customers have rejected PF2.

I've bought thousands of dollars of Pathfinder products, and will continue to buy hundreds to thousands more with PF2. It's the world that matters to me, not the system.

Since it sounds like PF2 is quite different from what we saw in the Playtest[...]

Interesting... I'll be interested to hear your feedback on this, dear Hmm, as I know that it will be an objective depiction of the system.

Paizo, I hope, will remain sensitive to the PF1 community when they make compilations of PF1 material and re-release it to the PF2 community. If they make such a compilation available and at a cheaper price -- please at least bundle the PF1 material and give the PF1 community the same price.

Bundling some of the PF1 AP PDFs at a very low price would go a long way in helping the PF1 community swallow the PF2 transition pill (or suppository, depending on your preferences).

hi jeff i have some question, the companion is only for pathfinder second edition right?
when it get expanded with stretch goal the bestiary (which have monster + companion content if i'm not wrong) for 5E and PF1 will be expanded as well?
At this point it's not easier remove monster stat block and have the adventure path without stat and 3 bestiary one for each system?
In this way the slip case will work fine indipendantly from the system wich you choose to buy kingmaker for

The biggest issue with Second Darkness is that it has an extremely poor sales record. Last I checked, all six installments were still available, and for $5 a piece no less. That's not exactly "set up a massive rerelease project around" levels of popularity. :(

Second Darkness 3 through 6 needs to be locked away in a safe and dumped in the ocean... then they need to make a Dragon's Demand supermodule with Books 1 and 2, adding a 3rd part with the PCs playing the roles of crime bosses as they now own the Golden Goblin casino...

hi jeff i have some question, the companion is only for pathfinder second edition right?

when it get expanded with stretch goal the bestiary (which have monster + companion content if i'm not wrong) for 5E and PF1 will be expanded as well?
At this point it's not easier remove monster stat block and have the adventure path without stat and 3 bestiary one for each system?
In this way the slip case will work fine independently from the system wich you choose to buy kingmaker for

Hey Maurizio, You are correct. The Companion is only going to be produced for 2E. The 1E and 5E bestiaries will include the stats and such from the Companion book so that content can be run in those systems as well.

As for us removing all the stats from the AP book and creating 3 different Bestiaries, that's not something we considered and is now out of the scope for this project. :/

Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition: Does your group prefer to stick with First Edition? We’ve got you covered with the hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for Pathfinder First Edition, a 160-page monster and NPC resource that converts the new companions, NPCs, and monsters unlocked by this campaign into old-school Pathfinder First Edition. Play along in the new and updated encounters with this helpful conversion guide featuring back-converted stats for the entire Kingmaker campaign, plus other rules conversions, tips and tricks to run the campaign as smoothly as possible. Not ready to convert to 2E? Already running the campaign with your First Edition group? This add-on book is your ticket to playing Kingmaker in classic style!

It seems they are giving the ability to stay in first edition..
Atleast that is what it says on the campaign site:

https://www.gameontabletop.com/cf194/kingmaker-10th-anniversary.html

Talonhawke wrote:

Samy wrote:

Provide stats for both 1e and 2e, and I will happily pay $100.

2e only = $0.

It's ironic if they'll be more willing to support a competitor's 5E than their own 1E product.

I do have to second this especially with 5E getting in on the action.

1E? ok I'm in...

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

Would it be reasonable to distribute the original PDFs with the new version?

Doesn't get you updated new content, but it's a big part of what you'd want.

The Map Folio isn’t showing as an unlockable as part of the campaign? Unless it’s part of the flip-mats?

They've just updated the campaign page to show that the map folio is a stretch goal of $230,000 and will be included for anyone that pledges at the Ruler/Spymaster level or higher.

Hobbun wrote:

Jeff Alvarez wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Count me as someone else who still would like to play this with 1e. I see it has the 1e Bestiary, but what about converting all the information in the actual AP itself? Like what skills to use in which situations, the DCs involved, etc?

Hey Hobbun, estimating what's going to be in the final 1E and 5E bestaries is tough business right now as we've just barely started on these projects so far. I'm sure as we work through the content, there will be plenty of updates to the campaign that will speak to topics like these.

Thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand it is early on right now with the project, but any idea on how the update with the content (1e skills, DCs, etc) would most likely be distributed? Maybe a free PDF download?

And I know it’s been stated this information is in the original PDF of Kingmaker, but I don’t have the AP (in softcover or PDF) and really don’t want to have to purchase Kingmaker twice. Also, would like to see whatever brand new content is in the AP to be updated as well (besides what is given in the Bestiary).

Would it be reasonable to distribute the original PDFs with the new version?

It's essentially cost-free and I can't imagine there'd be a lot of lost sales - not many people are going to be interested in buying the old version and the new one.

Doesn't get you updated new content, but it's a big part of what you'd want.

Hey thejeff, good question. I'm not sure we've considered this before now. We will kick it around and see if it has any legs.

Matrix Sorcica wrote:

They could just talk to Frog God Games, a much smaller company, who regulary has run and fulfilled Kickstarters for three different systems, including PF1 and 5E.

I don't think that will happen any time soon.

I certainly don't presume to speak for Paizo and their business philosophy and project plans, but I can speak as the owner of a company that has done multiple multi-system Kickstarters. It's both more complicated than it might seem from the outside to produce them (including in terms of making sure there is no "edition leakage" between products, and the style and format of how text is written - some text can stay the same but a fair amount needs to be revised - and the different page counts - our Pirate Campaign Compendium is 500 pages for Pathfinder and 448 for 5E), but also the different scales of production of a small publishing company vs. a larger one mean that there's a very different calculus involved in whether a product is going to be profitable or not.

Legendary Games can afford to make niche-of-a-niche products and can be flexible with how we produce things to meet the specific product demands. We don't have a minimum target to meet in order to produce a thing, and we can flex to make the means of production fit the demand. Smaller companies have an advantage of nimbleness in production choices and production schedule.

A larger company has both a lot more institutional overhead and different demands as far as their supply and delivery chain. I can't speculate on Paizo's numbers, but the gamble involved is substantial on an untested concept: will 5E players want to buy into a PF campaign?

Maybe their minimum order from their printer partner is 10,000 books (just to pull a number out of a hat - I have no idea). If they sell great, great. If it turns out 5E players aren't interested in an $80 Pathfinder book and they only sell 1,000, they don't want to sit with a giant pile of dead inventory in their warehouse. A 576 to 720-page book is EXPENSIVE, and in an untried market it's inherently risky.

A 160-page bestiary/NPC guide that gives you maybe 90% of the game-mechanical functionality of a full cover-to-cover conversion is a lot less risky of a proposition but still fills an interesting need.

So for that matter is a 160-page guide for PF1, if their sales tracking and market forecasting suggests that they probably wouldn't sell enough giant mega-books to make it worth the minimum order. The people who love the book would really love it, but if there aren't enough of them then it doesn't make sense as a company to do it.

I've run into that with some of our products we've produced. Some have gotten great reviews, and the fans who loved them loved them, but they just didn't sell enough to warrant making more of them.

RPG publishers do this because we love it, but we also do it to pay the mortgage and the light bill and insurance and groceries and maybe a nice vacation some time. Your creative side and your business side have different priorities, and you gotta make sure it makes sense in both directions.

Removed some posts. It’s okay if community members change there mind or their opinions; time and new information frequently inform new ideas, feelings, and thoughts. Being able to reflect and change an opinion along with changing circumstances or new evidence is an important quality to encourage. If you’re wondering why someone has switched up their opinion, you can try asking “What changed for you?”

only one question, why did you not tried directly kickstarter? i think
the project would have had much more resonance in that case. Kickstarter is more spread that game on tabletop and at this point maybe the total percentage would be three times the odiern one.

Maurizio Liparesi wrote:

hi jeff i have some question, the companion is only for pathfinder second edition right?

when it get expanded with stretch goal the bestiary (which have monster + companion content if i'm not wrong) for 5E and PF1 will be expanded as well?
At this point it's not easier remove monster stat block and have the adventure path without stat and 3 bestiary one for each system?
In this way the slip case will work fine independently from the system wich you choose to buy kingmaker for

Hey Maurizio, You are correct. The Companion is only going to be produced for 2E. The 1E and 5E bestiaries will include the stats and such from the Companion book so that content can be run in those systems as well.

As for us removing all the stats from the AP book and creating 3 different Bestiaries, that's not something we considered and is now out of the scope for this project. :/

OOOOOOH OK.