Aliens Incoming!

No, it doesn't work like that. You can't use starship weapons against creatures unless they are treated as hazards, and the only other thing starships get their x10 damage is on buildings. That's it.

Starships when on ground is treated as an object, just like vehicles are. There are no hard rules about how you would craft one, though. If you're inside of them and such, then they are treated as a structure, using HP and hardness values that are given for starship walls. And again, a common, everyday starship has no business overpowering a top of the line military battle cruiser.

Also, the hovercarrier I meantioned has a CR20 statblock, higher than even the Endbringer Devil, whom is CR19 and a tier 14 starship in starship combat. So, yes, a level 19 PC would have a better chance at destroying an Endbringer Devil than, say, most captial starships in the rulebook would. Regardless of the presence of starships and futuristic technology in this game, a level 20 anything is still the cream of the crop.

And that top of the line military airship thing might be able to take 3, maybe 4 of the low tier starship's tactical nuke launcher dealing 5d8x10 (avg 230) damage. I don't see how you would treat a vehicle that big as not a structure

That will probably also destroy a tier 1-maybe, 5 starship. The CR 20 is at best an unarmed tier 4 if it gets into starship combat.

Yeah, in my mind a tier 1 starship can trounce most military vehicles, unless they are equipped with starship weapons as well.

Starships vs. infantry is left to GM discretion. You can have a coilgun hit auto-kill with no save vs. any level character if you wish to.

You could convince me that tier 1-2 are under a million credits, and that 4 million might be able to buy a tier 4 ship at most, but that's it.

The endbringer is weird, but there's no way it's starship form and monster form have anywhere near equivalent stats if they were to switch places.

Well I already laid out how the game treats these types situations, and how you're not allowed to score a x10 modifier against anything unless it's against a structure. The GM discretion only mentions if it benefits from the x10 multiplier, but it explicitly states that a ship weapon can't target creatures. The tactical nukes are likely inflicting damage as a hazard attack of some form. Hazards can still do very high damage if it's from a particularly powerful starship, just nothing you would see from a tier 1-5 starship.

Really, though, it doesn't make sense that spacefaring militaries aren't using the same type of material or the equivalent for their higher level vehicles, and their weapons are likely the same or similar weapons used in starships except converted to creature scale for the purposes of game balance and mechanics. It's not like these types of armors and weapons need to exist in space, only.

The Endbringer may seem weird, but there is a power gap between creature CR and tier, it's just not as massive as you think it should be. It shouldn't be, either, to be honest. These are fictional monsters in a high fantasy game, and these same monsters in the CR20ish area are known for destroying entire planets in Pathfinder.

The Endbringer is literally the same monster, in a different shape for starship combat. It's stated in its description that it's equally capable of engaging in melee and starship combat, nor is it actually using starship weapons or any other systems. So nothing would change really if it swapped places.

Well I already laid out how the game treats these types situations, and how you're not allowed to score a x10 modifier against anything unless it's against a structure. The GM discretion only mentions if it benefits from the x10 multiplier, but it explicitly states that a ship weapon can't target creatures. The tactical nukes are likely inflicting damage as a hazard attack of some form. Hazards can still do very high damage if it's from a particularly powerful starship, just nothing you would see from a tier 1-5 starship.

Really, though, it doesn't make sense that spacefaring militaries aren't using the same type of material or the equivalent for their higher level vehicles, and their weapons are likely the same or similar weapons used in starships except converted to creature scale for the purposes of game balance and mechanics. It's not like these types of armors and weapons need to exist in space, only.

The Endbringer may seem weird, but there is a power gap between creature CR and tier, it's just not as massive as you think it should be. It shouldn't be, either, to be honest. These are fictional monsters in a high fantasy game, and these same monsters in the CR20ish area are known for destroying entire planets in Pathfinder.

The Endbringer is literally the same monster, in a different shape for starship combat. It's stated in its description that it's equally capable of engaging in melee and starship combat, nor is it actually using starship weapons or any other systems. So nothing would change really if it swapped places.

I do not agree with that interpretation. it doesn't make any sense to me, but to each their own.

Thankfully it's unlikely to come up in play, and purposefully glossed over in the rules.

Sauce987654321 wrote:

Well I already laid out how the game treats these types situations, and how you're not allowed to score a x10 modifier against anything unless it's against a structure. The GM discretion only mentions if it benefits from the x10 multiplier, but it explicitly states that a ship weapon can't target creatures. The tactical nukes are likely inflicting damage as a hazard attack of some form. Hazards can still do very high damage if it's from a particularly powerful starship, just nothing you would see from a tier 1-5 starship.

Really, though, it doesn't make sense that spacefaring militaries aren't using the same type of material or the equivalent for their higher level vehicles, and their weapons are likely the same or similar weapons used in starships except converted to creature scale for the purposes of game balance and mechanics. It's not like these types of armors and weapons need to exist in space, only.

The Endbringer may seem weird, but there is a power gap between creature CR and tier, it's just not as massive as you think it should be. It shouldn't be, either, to be honest. These are fictional monsters in a high fantasy game, and these same monsters in the CR20ish area are known for destroying entire planets in Pathfinder.

The Endbringer is literally the same monster, in a different shape for starship combat. It's stated in its description that it's equally capable of engaging in melee and starship combat, nor is it actually using starship weapons or any other systems. So nothing would change really if it swapped places.

I do not agree with that interpretation. it doesn't make any sense to me, but to each their own.

Thankfully it's unlikely to come up in play, and purposefully glossed over in the rules.

Do you mean a vehicle vs. a starship? Yeah, it is best if they don't interact, since it's literally no different from taking two games and putting them together with no actual conversion. Everything else I said concerning gameplay, fluff, and mechanics was taken straight from the books.

Do you mean a vehicle vs. a starship? Yeah, it is best if they don't interact, since it's literally no different from taking two games and putting them together with no actual conversion. Everything else I said concerning gameplay, fluff, and mechanics was taken straight from the books.

Well...

At the GM's discretion, if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or people, they deal hit point damage equal to 10 x their listed amount of damage.

And then it goes on to explain that they aren't precise enough to target individuals or groups, but can be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks, as mentioned earlier.

So a tac nuke from that tier one ship is an average of 230 damage to everything in some radius determined by the GM. It can't hit the PCs with a railgun, but this is a nuke.

My sticking point is that it is very easy to build a tier 1 ship with a tac nuke launcher.

Tactical nukes were/are NATO's response if russia came over the borders of the cold war with their hundreds of thousands of tanks and millions of infantry.

CR is a strange beast, but it's not unbelievable that a tier 1 fighter could beat the top of the line military vehicles by shooting nukes off. Those same vehicles might also have their own nukes of course, but the point still stands.

If it can do that, it can kill the lvl 20 PCs the same way, and if it can do that, I have to believe that an endbringer in monster form is extraordinarily weaker than it is in starship form.

But that nuke's average damage? lvl 20 PC's can survive one maybe two if rolled well, but three? The don't stand a chance against a tier 1 fighter that has a general idea of where they are.

Sauce987654321 wrote:

Do you mean a vehicle vs. a starship? Yeah, it is best if they don't interact, since it's literally no different from taking two games and putting them together with no actual conversion. Everything else I said concerning gameplay, fluff, and mechanics was taken straight from the books.

Well...

pg. 292 CRB wrote:

At the GM's discretion, if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or people, they deal hit point damage equal to 10 x their listed amount of damage.

And then it goes on to explain that they aren't precise enough to target individuals or groups, but can be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks, as mentioned earlier.

So a tac nuke from that tier one ship is an average of 230 damage to everything in some radius determined by the GM. It can't hit the PCs with a railgun, but this is a nuke.

My sticking point is that it is very easy to build a tier 1 ship with a tac nuke launcher.

Tactical nukes were/are NATO's response if russia came over the borders of the cold war with their hundreds of thousands of tanks and millions of infantry.

CR is a strange beast, but it's not unbelievable that a tier 1 fighter could beat the top of the line military vehicles by shooting nukes off. Those same vehicles might also have their own nukes of course, but the point still stands.

If it can do that, it can kill the lvl 20 PCs the same way, and if it can do that, I have to believe that an endbringer in monster form is extraordinarily weaker than it is in starship form.

But that nuke's average damage? lvl 20 PC's can survive one maybe two if rolled well, but three? The don't stand a chance against a tier 1 fighter that has a general idea of where they are.

The game is very clear on how starship weapons interact with creatures. You cannot benefit from a x10 multiplier if you can't target your enemy. AoE or not, it's still considered targeting and not even necessarily a dead on hit. That's not to say you can't damage them with it, because that's not what it means. You use leveled hazards as your attack/damage if your GM decides to, instead of the attack doing nothing.

So if you're wondering what the point of the x10 damage against people is, that's the damage you may receive if you decide to detonate a nuke while you're next to it or locked in a room with it, standing in front of a laser cannon, or any other situation someone can think of involving a starship's weapon not scoring a free x10 damage. Logically, though, these aren't really any different from letting a tank's main cannon coup de grace you or something similar.

Sure, I can see tier 1 starships launching nuke after nuke to destroy a level 20 carrier, but I also can see the same for a tier 20 ship getting nuked by the same tier 1s. Though, neither of this really shows in the gameplay unless you have an unlimited supply of tier 1s rolling forever to score a hit.

I'm not sure what else I can say about the Endbringer. It has dual statistics because of game mechanics, but it's still the same monster. It getting weaker or stronger depending on its form is not a part of the monster's description or lore.

Starship weapons and regular PC-level weapons work on different scales and aren’t meant to interact with each other. If characters choose to shoot at a starship with their laser rifles (or cast a spell on it) while it is on the ground, the GM should treat the starship as an object (a particularly massive one, at that). At the GM’s discretion, if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or people, they deal Hit Point damage equal to 10 × their listed amount of damage. However, starship weapons are never precise enough to target a single individual (or even small group) and can, if the GM decides, be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks.

From my perspective...

2) Starships cannot target specific individuals with direct-fire weapons, and should be treated as deadly hazards as stated. The only problem is that "startship weapon fire" isn't listed as a "hazard"... which should be added.

3) Starships can target specific individuals with tracking weapons, and deal 10 times the damage upon hit.

4) The missing rule is about shooting creatures, not people. "People", for most of us, refers to any Small to Large character. "Creatures" refers to anything that can hunt you and eat you :P

So... the rules need a clarification about a threshold which indicates if the creature can be shoot by starships at the normal damage or the 10 times damage.

Starfinder Core Rulebook, p.292 wrote:

Starship weapons and regular PC-level weapons work on different scales and aren’t meant to interact with each other. If characters choose to shoot at a starship with their laser rifles (or cast a spell on it) while it is on the ground, the GM should treat the starship as an object (a particularly massive one, at that). At the GM’s discretion, if starship weapons are ever brought to bear against buildings or people, they deal Hit Point damage equal to 10 × their listed amount of damage. However, starship weapons are never precise enough to target a single individual (or even small group) and can, if the GM decides, be simulated as deadly hazards instead of weapon attacks.

From my perspective...

1) Starships can target buildings at 10 times the damage. I mean, if a starship is invading a planet, its weapons will destroy any building it chooses to target.

2) Starships cannot target specific individuals with direct-fire weapons, and should be treated as deadly hazards as stated. The only problem is that "startship weapon fire" isn't listed as a "hazard"... which should be added.

3) Starships can target specific individuals with tracking weapons, and deal 10 times the damage upon hit.

4) The missing rule is about shooting creatures, not people. "People", for most of us, refers to any Small to Large character. "Creatures" refers to anything that can hunt you and eat you :P

So... the rules need a clarification about a threshold which indicates if the creature can be shoot by starships at the normal damage or the 10 times damage.

Where, exactly, do you find any evidence to suggest that tracking weapons can ignore the great big, flashing neon sign "You cannot target individual people" rule?

Where, exactly, do you find any evidence to suggest that tracking weapons can ignore the great big, flashing neon sign "You cannot target individual people" rule?

In the 'treat as hazards' and 'do damage to people'. You can't snipe a politician off the soapbox with a railgun or a torpedo, but you could fire randomly into a crowd/at buildings nearby, creating a hazard that will hit some people.

And the nuke is definitely a hazard. A large scale, deadly one likely to hit people within thousands of feet of impact. One whose damage is calculated as 5d8x10 to nearby buildings and people. If the PCs/NPCs are out in the open nearby, they will be taking damage from starship weaponry.

At this point it's 'rocks fall, everybody dies' unless the GM has planned this encounter out correctly.

Edit: By 'you' I mean the big bad evil cult of the devourer

Can we get back to the aliens? In other words, shouldn't most of this conversation belong in another thread?

Metaphysician wrote:

Where, exactly, do you find any evidence to suggest that tracking weapons can ignore the great big, flashing neon sign "You cannot target individual people" rule?

In the 'treat as hazards' and 'do damage to people'. You can't snipe a politician off the soapbox with a railgun or a torpedo, but you could fire randomly into a crowd/at buildings nearby, creating a hazard that will hit some people.

And the nuke is definitely a hazard. A large scale, deadly one likely to hit people within thousands of feet of impact. One whose damage is calculated as 5d8x10 to nearby buildings and people. If the PCs/NPCs are out in the open nearby, they will be taking damage from starship weaponry.

At this point it's 'rocks fall, everybody dies' unless the GM has planned this encounter out correctly.

Edit: By 'you' I mean the big bad evil cult of the devourer

Right, and hazards use their own damage, not the weapon's. The game doesn't distinguish between one starship weapon and another, like you are with the rail gun/torpedo and the tactical nuke, in your example. This is obviously intended to be a balance mechanism, not a "rocks fall, everyone dies" mechanic. Again, it says treat it as a hazard, or a weapon attack, and starship weapon attacks can't target individuals or small groups.

Can we get back to the aliens? In other words, shouldn't most of this conversation belong in another thread?

Ready when everyone else is.

I feel like with the addition of several bigger-than-Colossal aliens, the ship combat rules need to be expanded, such as:

- converting weapon mounts from one arc to another, such as converting the aft and starboard arcs into forward arcs.

- converting weapon mounts from one step to another; ok, technically speaking, you already can. However, I'd like a rule to converting two LIGHT mounts into ONE heavy mounts, essentially allowing smaller ships to get stronger weapons, such as a Fighter-class ship getting heavy weapons.

- feats that improve space combat, such as treating weapons one range better, or increasing the speed of tracking weapons.

- magic/hybrid weapons for starships

*cough* looks at my mostly complete JTAS collection *cough* spinal mounts *cough*

I noticed Alien Archive 2 was just released under Additional Resources for Society play (yay!). However, I was saddened to see that the Squox (specifically mentioned in this Blog post) was not legal. I was wondering why that decision was made? It doesn't seem overpowered, and my Xenodruid was looking forward to finally having an animal companion. =) Thanks for any insight!

Squoxes are probably being reserved for chronicles or some other special reward in organized play. It's pretty much a guarantee that they're going to be popular.

It's probably to ensure all players get equal time in the spotlight. Companion creatures are essentially second characters that can allow a player to get double the attention/time on their turns, which isn't really fair to the other players.

@Elinnea I hope the Chronicle is an option for the future! I've just been so excited about them since I saw this post. =)

@Ravendork, thanks for the insight; you are probably right. I honestly was thinking I'd just keep him in his pet carrier most of the time (I don't want him to die!), but I can definitely see how he could take on a life of his own and start dominating the table.