Craft, Knowledge and Profession... Too Vague?

I was just thinking about the Skills Craft, Knowledge and Profession, and how not many of my players seem to spend points for these skills. Is it because they're too vague? I understand that you can't list all the crafts and professions that exist, but how many player would spend skill points on Profession (Cook) or Craft (Basketweaving) when there's so many other more useful skills?

I'm thinking that professions could be something like a feat. An example would be something like the 'Sailor Feat' wich could give you some bonuses in use rope, swim, etc...

How does all this sound?

Ultradan

I was just thinking about the Skills Craft, Knowledge and Profession, and how not many of my players seem to spend points for these skills. Is it because they're too vague? I understand that you can't list all the crafts and professions that exist, but how many player would spend skill points on Profession (Cook) or Craft (Basketweaving) when there's so many other more useful skills?

I'm thinking that professions could be something like a feat. An example would be something like the 'Sailor Feat' wich could give you some bonuses in use rope, swim, etc...

How does all this sound?

Ultradan

The Craft/Profession/Knowledge skills were designed as skills because they represent the degree of skill/talent/training you have in those field. Basically, it is a way to distinguish between the novice, the professional, the expert, and the sage. The skills mentioned above are also all depended on your ability to learn and retain knowledge and technical information.

A feat would be much better off in other pursuits. If your players are not taking advantage of the skills mentioned above, then perhaps you are not providing them with sufficient opportunities to use said skills or they are simply not interested. Having craft skills and knowledge skills are essential for most spellcasters, especially when they want to explore new field of magics and create their own items (hence, the Craft and Forge feats).

Just my random thoughts.

CB Out.

...not many of my players seem to spend points for these skills. Is it because they're too vague?Ultradan

Nope.

It's because these skills don't help to keep you alive (Concentration, Balance, Disable Device, etc.) or doesn't help you make something else un-alive (Tumble, Jump, Spellcraft, etc.)

*With the notable exceptions of Craft: murderous plan, Proffesion: slayer, and Knowledge: future.

Maybe my gamers aren't into power as much as I thought, as many of them have spent points on various craft, profession and knowledge skills.

I think the vagueness helps the imaginative player, because the vagueness allows them to put on convincing arguments on how certain craft, knowledge or profession skills might help them in an adventure.

As a DM, I try to encourage that by allowing PC's with certain knowledge, profession or craft skills to utilize those skills during an adventure.

Basically, you need to give them a reason to take those skills for the reasons stated above. As a fairly novice DM (at least under 3.5) I have tried to instill in my players an appreciation of these, and it isn't always easy. They've started to use the heck out of the various Knowledge feats because I throw them a bone whenever I can. The other two are a bit more difficult, but can be done. Fighters can be encouraged to take Professions like armorer and blacksmith, archers can quickly come to appreciate Professions or Crafts like bowcrafting, fletching, etc. when they start running out of arrows - it also saves them the trouble of carrying around 100s of arrows at a time when they can make new ones on the fly. Hackers and slashers never seem to take those skills, though, without a compelling reason to do so (ie needing them for a prestige class).

Actually, I think these skills are pretty important, if used correctly, and add a lot of flavor to otherwise one-sided characters or hack-n-slash games. They encourage roleplaying, which is a big deal in my games. I always get at least a couple of these skills for my own characters regardless of class, and I create situations for my players in which they come in useful, which is easy to do. Only a true novice who lives to swing their sword and nothing else would overlook these skills. Craft and Profession have the obvious benefit of being able to earn gold as well as save gold by doing cetain things for oneself instead of having to pay someone else to do them. Plus, it's easy to imagine a situation in which someone in need of a particular skill or service could become a useful contact, friend or ally because of that relationship. Knowledge skills, on the other hand, are especially useful in providing information which can help characters in some way with just about any situation. Whether or not these skills prove 'useful' is up to the players and more importantly the DM.

I was just thinking about the Skills Craft, Knowledge and Profession, and how not many of my players seem to spend points for these skills. Is it because they're too vague? I understand that you can't list all the crafts and professions that exist, but how many player would spend skill points on Profession (Cook) or Craft (Basketweaving) when there's so many other more useful skills?

I'm thinking that professions could be something like a feat. An example would be something like the 'Sailor Feat' wich could give you some bonuses in use rope, swim, etc...

How does all this sound?

Ultradan

Here is the link to the sight that I use. Very Cool.

http://www.aarg.net/~minam/treasure2.cgi

Huzzah for Jamis Buck!

Well, they are skills which can be ignored or which might form a backbone for a character, depending on both players and GM.

For example, while not exactly useful skill in terms of game mechanics, couple of ranks in Profession(cook) is a sure way to get other player characters to like you since, well, it is nice to have someone with you who can actually cook (if the players don't see it, they haven't been long enough in the wilderness).

Other profession skills bring similar flavor to the character which should be considered when thinking about party dynamics and such.

Craft skills probably won't see much use in city-oriented campaigns but in unsettled areas they make the life more bearable and yes, sometimes can be matter of life and death.(GM: "Ran out of arrows? No fletchers inside 100 miles? Told you craft skills are useful *evil cackle*")
Or maybe the characters are just bunch of tightwads (like we are in our campaign).

Knowledge skills can represent also amount of "metagame knowledge", how experienced players know much more than their 2nd level clerics do. Go ahead and demand a knowledge roll to tell a difference between a wight and a goblin.

Just a side thought: would YOU like to spend your days with someone who spends his free time doing nothing but sharpening his sword or practicing somersaults?

I was just thinking about the Skills Craft, Knowledge and Profession, and how not many of my players seem to spend points for these skills. Ultradan

As a player I always picked up odd skills & knowledge, and enjoyed finding ways to use them in the campaign. I found that it helped round out my character as a person with a real past. I guess it all depends on if you want to roleplay a lot or a little.

As a DM I always encourage people to take Skills Craft, Knowledge and Professions; and usually find a way to work in ways for them to utilize them.

Part of me wants to suggest a change to the mechanics of how skill points are allocated on level advancement.

Without being totally thought out, I would say that you get the standard skill points to spend as you would normally spend them (and if your inclination is to sharpen swords all day long, so be it), and you would also get an allotment of skill points based on your "subclass", "lifestyle" (or whatever we want to call it) that is spent on only these types of non-combat oriented skills such as craft, knowledge or profession.

The other part of me wants a big juicy Fatburger.

Mmmm...fatburger...