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Bringing Out the Big Guns in Starfinder

Friday, June 16, 2017

As a science fantasy game, Starfinder has a wide range of high-tech weapons. Cryo guns, plasma weapons, lasers, full automatic projectile weapons, grenades, and many more categories of high-tech weapons cram the equipment chapter, ready for players to select what they need to stay alive in the adventures to come. But as soon as you mention that lasers are an option, and that Starfinder is supposed to maintain fair backward compatibility with the monsters of Pathfinder, players wonder how a goblin is supposed to be any kind of threat to PCs armed with advanced ranged weaponry. After all, realistically, a laser has to do more damage than a short sword, right.

Well, in a word, no.

Where realism impinges on making a fun and robust game, we're more than happy to deviate from realism—but in this case, it's not really necessary. Modern real-world laser pointers are lasers, for example, and do no damage to speak of when fired at your hand. And while it may seem unrealistic for laser pistols and plasma rifles to do low enough damage that you can be shot 4 or 5 times before you're in serious risk of death, that logic also applies to archaic weapons. It's not hard to make a 1st-level barbarian in Pathfinder who can easily survive four blows from a short sword and still be conscious. Certainly most people would agree that "realistically," being stabbed four times with 18 inches of sharpened steel isn't going to leave anyone in the condition where they can just walk away.

So, since we know lasers (and, by extension, most other energy weapons) can exist at a level where they do little to no damage, we can go ahead and make low-powered versions appropriate for the threats and foes low-level characters are most likely to encounter, letting your character start the game with that laser pistol they've been coveting.

But of course it wouldn't be any fun to restrict characters to such low-powered options forever.

Starfinder assumes there is almost always a better version of any weapon you can imagine—the trick is convincing people to sell it to you (and having the credits to afford it). In many cases the most advanced of these weapons don't make sense for rank-and-file troops. After all, why would an army buy a single avalanche-class zero rifle, when it can buy forty hailstorm-class zero rifles for the same amount of money? Sure, the avalanche-class does three times as much damage. But if you have an army to equip, it's better to have forty guns doing 2d8 damage than one gun doing 7d8 damage.

Of course there are exceptions to that thinking, including elite forces, commandos, assassins, snipers... and player characters.

As characters advance, they'll have the money, and connections, to buy more and more powerful versions of their early weapons. To keep this process simple, every piece of equipment in the game has an item level. That level has no effect on who can use the equipment—if a 2nd-level soldier gets hold of an 18th-level banshee sonic rifle, there's no reason he can't use it to full effect—just as a 2nd-level fighter could use a +5 flaming keen vicious bastard sword in Pathfinder. But by giving every piece of equipment an item level, we can tie numerous rules—including hardness, Hit Points, save DCs, and item creation rules, to name just a few—to a single mechanic. Item level is also a useful baseline to help determine what gear a character has the licenses, connections, and trust to buy. While circumstances and GM fiat can make any adjustment desired, in general a player character in a major settlement is free to buy any gear with an item level up to his character level +2. This gives characters freedom to decide if they are going to focus on just a few pieces of key gear, or do their best to have a variety of slightly less-effective options available, without a GM having to spend a lot of time checking tables and making availability rolls.

In general, there's no need to upgrade your weaponry at every level (though you certainly could if that was exciting for you), but over the course of a character's career they are likely to buy better, more dangerous, more powerful versions of their weaponry. The azimuth laser pistol is 1st level, and does 1d4 damage with an 80 ft. range increment and the ability to set things on fire with critical hits. The next lowest level laser pistol presented in the Core Rulebook is the corona model at 6th level, which does 2d4 damage. Of course, a player might run into a number of other weapon options along the way, ranging from the static arc pistol at 2nd level to the thunderstrike sonic pistol at 4th level or the frostbite-class zero pistol at 5th level.

Of course, for this system to work, feats and class features can't be tied to a specific model or level of a specific weapon. Instead, everything is geared to work with all the weapons for a specific proficiency, or all the weapons of the same category. Weapon Focus, for example, can be applied to all small arms, or all longarms, and so on. The soldier's gear boosts tend to work with categories of weapons, such as laser accuracy applying to all lasers, or plasma immolation working with all plasma weapons.

And that's not even talking about magic weapons! The Starfinder Core Rulebook has several pages of weapon fusions, which are special magic abilities that can be added to a weapon to gain a bonus in specific circumstances, or grant new combat options. For example, the anchoring fusion allows a weapon to immobilize a foe on a critical hit, while the holy fusion allows a weapon to bypass DR/good and ignore all energy resistance of evil dragons, evil outsiders, and evil undead. Fusion can also be placed in fusion seals, special weapon augmentations that can be moved from weapon to weapon if you decide to change your primary attack preference.

Nor does all of a character's increase in damage come from buying bigger guns and more powerful melee weapons. At 3rd level, every character class grants specialization with all the standard weapons the class gives proficiency with. This allows the character to add their level to damage dealt (or to add half their level in the case of small arms or operative melee weapons, the latter of which have the special property that anyone can use their Dexterity rather than Strength to determine their attack bonus). And of course class features, feats, and spells can grant further bonuses, depending on the choices a player makes while building their character.

All of this is tied to our rebalancing of combat math to make the game faster and simpler, while keeping weapon choice important and keeping the importance of treasure acquisition as a feature of the game. It also gives us flexibility when working in the weapon creation design space. The various weapon categories mean that characters with no access to magic abilities can still pick up weapons that do various forms of energy damage; create cones, lines, or explosions; or even stagger, blind, stun, or ignite foes. A soldier might decide their primary fighting style is to use a big two-handed melee weapon, but still carry a few grenades and a flamethrower for situations where they need to affect multiple targets in an area, or just deal a different damage type. It also removes the need to constantly chase pure accuracy bonuses, since doing more damage in a round is no longer dependent on having a 3rd or 4th (or 6th!) attack in a full attack action reliably connect with foes.

Most of the math and design work behind how Starfinder's weapons, attacks, feats, and more isn't particularly obvious to a typical player—quite intentionally—but we've put a lot of time into creating options that work well together, and making sure equipment and weapons generally come into play right at the point when it's appropriate for characters to access them. Hopefully this will allow players to focus less on finding some theoretical perfect combination of game elements for effectiveness, and more on interplanetary adventure!

Owen KC Stephens
Developer

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Torbyne wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Torbyne wrote:

There are comments on the forums already that seem to confirm elemental blasters. we have seen cold and fire based energy weapons already and the only Tech Guide had electricity so i expect that to make a come back as well. I think it had some Sonic weapons as well. i am curious to see how they work in Acid blasters... maybe some kind of ion disruptor that counts as acidic? Or a payload rifle that fires canisters of powerful acids?

I might be misunderstanding, we have heard that there will be spray/cone weapons and both plasma and flame weapons seem to also use templates. I cant say for sure there will be acid based template weapons but it seems fairly probable. Or are you looking more for industrial equipment turned into weapons?

Really there will already be what I want enough. assuming a GM allows the fluff change.

Though I would enjoy the ability to turn tools into proper weapons. but that isn't remotely needed except in a few story situations, or for weird character concepts. I've mostly had GMs who hated refluffing and things like that~
Grand Lodge
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A post in one of the other threads just reminded me of this and/or this.

I hope there's a place for these in Starfinder :D

I am not sure if that might count as archaic weapon...after all it's just a primitive cannon modified with a handle

I'm wondering about the possibility of multifunction weapons, such as gunblades and a rotating barrel setup with one laser, one projectile, etc.
Damanta wrote:

A post in one of the other threads just reminded me of this and/or this.

I hope there's a place for these in Starfinder :D

That could be a fun archaic weapon, something from an early industrial revolution period on a magically inclined planet. the smallest field cannon with enchantments to add shadow shooting, reduced weight (from a mithral starting point no less) and maybe some fiery burst on there too. Never mass produced and viewed about the same as we would see a musket... but still brutally effective against soft targets.

The Sideromancer wrote:
I'm wondering about the possibility of multifunction weapons, such as gunblades and a rotating barrel setup with one laser, one projectile, etc.

Or bayonets!

Grand Lodge
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Seisho wrote:
I am not sure if that might count as archaic weapon...after all it's just a primitive cannon modified with a handle

The Broadsider would definately be archaic yes, possible the low tier version.

The SBC Cannon would be the high tier version and lose the archaic stuff, considering it's origins and ammo.
Torbyne wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
I'm wondering about the possibility of multifunction weapons, such as gunblades and a rotating barrel setup with one laser, one projectile, etc.
Or bayonets!

It was mentioned earlier in this thread I believe that sadly bayonets are not a thing in core. Maybe someday, but not core.

Shinigami02 wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
I'm wondering about the possibility of multifunction weapons, such as gunblades and a rotating barrel setup with one laser, one projectile, etc.
Or bayonets!
It was mentioned earlier in this thread I believe that sadly bayonets are not a thing in core. Maybe someday, but not core.

I know, i was a part of that discussion. But i will not stop mentioning how i really want this to be a thing. Under barrel light sabers for everyone!

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Heck, I want accessory rails and underslung options for weapons.

I have no doubt we'll have such things, they just aren't in the core rulebook (much as lots of things that have become integral to Pathfinder aren't in the Pathfinder core rulebook).
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Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

Heck, I want accessory rails and underslung options for weapons.

I have no doubt we'll have such things, they just aren't in the core rulebook (much as lots of things that have become integral to Pathfinder aren't in the Pathfinder core rulebook).

Well i guess this means our only option at this point is for the game to be a wild success and for you and the rest of the team to produce many, many more books to support it. hopefully you will have some down time between writing to actually play your game now and then...

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team
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Torbyne wrote:
Well i guess this means our only option at this point is for the game to be a wild success and for you and the rest of the team to produce many, many more books to support it.

From your lips to the forces of reality's ears!

Torbyne wrote:
hopefully you will have some down time between writing to actually play your game now and then...

While I know many awesome designers who somehow do it, I remain firmly in the camp of designers who need to play any game we write for a lot. :)

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So the First Contact book only lists eight different weapon damage types: bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic. Is force damage no longer a thing? (I swear I've seen it in context of a Starfinder demo somewhere...)
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Opsylum wrote:
So the First Contact book only lists eight different types of weapon damage types: bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, fire, cold, acid, electricity, and sonic. Is force damage no longer a thing? (I swear I've seen it in context of a Starfinder demo somewhere...)

Magic Missile is still a thing after all.

Scarab Sages Developer, Starfinder Team

At least in pathfinder, force damage has never been a damage type in the same way the weapon damage types and energy types are. "Force damage" is a shorthand for saying "damage that is a force effect," and it is otherwise generally untyped.

The same is true of untyped damage (such as the spell disintegrate inflicts) and damage resulting directly from divine power (such as half of flame strike).

That doesn't mean a Starfinder weapon couldn't do force damage, and magic missile certainly does, but for weapons it's certainly not the norm.

I like how that "not the norm" implies AP's with crazy Marvin the Martian's with mobile platforms obliterating planets because they're blocking his view.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
...much as lots of things that have become integral to Pathfinder aren't in the Pathfinder core rulebook...

If only there were some way to address that... ;-)

Quote:
Item level is also a useful baseline to help determine what gear a character ha the licenses, connections, and trust to buy.

Got a permit for those guns?

"After all, why would an army buy a single avalanche-class zero rifle, when it can buy forty hailstorm-class zero rifles for the same amount of money? Sure, the avalanche-class does three times as much damage."

Gee, I don't know? Because the soldier is worth 50 times the gun? We're talking just in terms of time and resources spent putting them through bootcamp? Or because in any modern army you're also stockpiling munitions for vehicles, some of which individually cost 100 times the cost of the super rifle? Or because it's political suicide to tell the families of the bereaved, "well, we could have equipped them with guns that would have won the fight casually but caskets were cheaper..."

Its a game mechanic, and probably a useful one for organizing treasure table, but as a real world/in game rationale it's absurd. In the real world you fret over fractions of a percent of improved performance, because we're talking about LIVES. The people who have only one of those to give ain't fond of lowest bid contractor reasoning. Sorry. Something that's hands down 250% more effective with no downsides is going to obsolete everything else merely by existing...
James Gearin wrote:
In the real world you fret over fractions of a percent of improved performance, because we're talking about LIVES.

... And yet, in setting, a single life being returned to life has a distinct monetary value. About 5000 Credits, or effectively FREE if you have a friend with level 4 Mystic Cure able to get to you quick enough.

Compared to some of the higher level weapons, that's quite cheap. While on longer term campaigns, higher cost gear is better just for how often it will prevent you NEEDING to spend those 5000 credits on any kind of frequent basis, you'd need to have a LOT of opportunities to die before that cost/risk/reward equation at all equals out.

The highest grade of Heavy Weapon, such as the Paragon Reaction Cannon... Needs to save your life with its added power roughly 162 times before you break even, and if you have a 10th level Mystic with you, then it might not even be worth that.

Assume that a standard Soldier (as opposed to a security guard) is probably 10th level, and that a 20th level character is part of an Elite Black ops unit, (this fits with the Hailstorm vs Avalanche comparison, Hailstorm is 8th level). At that kind of level, 40 level 10 Soldiers can handle a surprising amount so long as they coordinate. And each one's weapon only has to prevent that specific soldier from needing to be resurrected twice to be (almost) worth the weapon cost. More-over, if they're in units with combat medic Mystics, then the resurrection costs plummet.

... And needless to say, 40 Soldiers vs 1 Kaiju is probably a fair fight. Especially if they all fire at once.

On the other end of the spectrum... The typical first level character, and gear for that matter... Is basically in a situation that not only is better equipment more expensive, but resurrection is too expensive. At that point, literally anything is better than nothing... And that's to be expected... At first level, you're not professionals, you're amateurs. At that point, its neither your duty nor responsibility to risk your life... You're doing that on your own. As such... You're basically the swamp hillbilly asking the second hand gun shop if they've got something to help you sort out your rodent problem.

... No joke, at first level, you're basically fighting overgrown rats and street hooligans. Your protection would be just as effective if it were basically just a hockey outfit you bought at the sporting store.
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Luna Protege wrote:
... And yet, in setting, a single life being returned to life has a distinct monetary value. About 5000 Credits, or effectively FREE if you have a friend with level 4 Mystic Cure able to get to you quick enough.

I'm now trying to imagine a civilized legal system when the maximum value of a life is 5,000 credits. I mean is it even possible to have a murder charge be anything other than a slap-on-the-wrist fine under those circumstances? My impression is we're talking about modern, even multi-planetary civilizations way past their industrial revolution. Because when you have the casual presumption of resurrection as an economic touchstone, we're talking medical tech on a level that makes Star Trek look outright barbaric.

I would not have guessed just getting through 6-10 weeks of boot camp was worth around 9 levels. Seems like something players should be flinging themselves at. The RoI is amazing :).

So I'm guessing starting PCs owning a tramp freighter of some sort is right out then? Seems sort of conceptually inappropriate for folks bringing hockey pads to a gun fight even if it's a pretty common 'my space opera fantasy is...'. Sounds like if you want to go swanning from world to world at lower levels it'll be by buying a (space) bus ticket.
James Gearin wrote:
I'm now trying to imagine a civilized legal system when the maximum value of a life is 5,000 credits. I mean is it even possible to have a murder charge be anything other than a slap-on-the-wrist fine under those circumstances? My impression is we're talking about modern, even multi-planetary civilizations way past their industrial revolution. Because when you have the casual presumption of resurrection as an economic touchstone, we're talking medical tech on a level that makes Star Trek look outright barbaric.

... Sounds pretty cyber-punk doesn't it?

James Gearin wrote:
I would not have guessed just getting through 6-10 weeks of boot camp was worth around 9 levels. Seems like something players should be flinging themselves at. The RoI is amazing :)

I was more thinking of the average level of "normal" soldiers, not the green horned Bambis fresh out of Boot camp. The guy's fresh out of Boot camp are probably around level 8. The average soldier in the unit is level 10. The most experienced guy in the unit who's probably grizzled and seen active combat is probably closer to Level 12 and probably seen about 3 years of active combat.

... Before you say three years is probably a bit much, consider that if they're working together with a large number of other people, which in my example they probably will... Then they're going to have to split their EXP gains with them.

James Gearin wrote:
So I'm guessing starting PCs owning a tramp freighter of some sort is right out then? Seems sort of conceptually inappropriate for folks bringing hockey pads to a gun fight even if it's a pretty common 'my space opera fantasy is...'. Sounds like if you want to go swanning from world to world at lower levels it'll be by buying a (space) bus ticket.

Within game context, it seems to be that the players rarely actually "own", or rather "bought" the ship. Heck, the starships aren't even given a listed price as near as I can tell; and if the AP information I've heard is anything to go by, the typical reasons you've even got a ship are that you were given it, stole it, found it, built it yourself over a long period of time, or you made a long term deal with someone to get it (such as taking out a real big loan).

WHY aren't there shortswords anymore? So from Pathfinder to Starfinder people just stopped making them? Unlikely. And what happens if a operative gets a shortsword, say from Pathfinder times and its a magical non POS, non archaic one? It SHOULD be operative weapon able to do the extra damage and I see little reason why they couldn't upgrade this sword so its not some archaic POS.
Liberty's Edge
Scott Henry wrote:
WHY aren't there shortswords anymore? So from Pathfinder to Starfinder people just stopped making them? Unlikely. And what happens if a operative gets a shortsword, say from Pathfinder times and its a magical non POS, non archaic one? It SHOULD be operative weapon able to do the extra damage and I see little reason why they couldn't upgrade this sword so its not some archaic POS.

They probably do exist, they just aren't in super common usage compared to, say, knives and are thus not in the corebook. Personally, I'd say their damage is probably on par with batons, so you could just go with that, make the damage piercing and roll with it.

Considering they have plasma swords, laser swords, and swords made from some high-quality alloy with edges so sharp they will cut things before the blade hits it (or at least that's my personal headcanon for the dimensional slice weapons, technically it's just a hard aura)... yeah, I would say a cheap steel blade from centuries ago qualifies as "some archaic POS". That said, later books might have modern-made short swords. After all, they can't possibly put every single weapon made in modern society into the core rulebook, the thing would be too large to handle, weigh a ton, and cost a fortune to both print and buy.

You could just say that your plasma sword is short sword length. Pretty sure Paizo isn't going to bash down your doors and imprison you for playing the game wrong if you do so.

Considering they have those but still have a survivial knife that does 1d4? They could easily make a shortsword from non archaic materials and obviously also have plasma, laser and high quality alloys. Easily.

And the latter half of my post or so was saying they may do that. Just... it's not in the Core book. Just like a lot of things aren't in the Core book that are going to be introduced in later books. Heck, from what I've heard the AP has already introduced new weapons, namely an actual Axe.

Does SF still have flanking and can you deliver operative damage by surprise, flanking and going before the person you are attacking (flat footed?)
Liberty's Edge
Scott Henry wrote:
Does SF still have flanking and can you deliver operative damage by surprise, flanking and going before the person you are attacking (flat footed?)

Flanking exists but in no way helps with Trick Attack. You can deliver a Trick Attack only by succeeding at the skill check described in Trick Attack. Mechanically it bears almost no similarity to Sneak Attack (though their themes are similar).

That's stupid as hell it has to be some damn roll EVERY time. Because honestly wouldn't it just screw the operative over and have a higher DC? I mean the guy you're Trick Attacking is going to catch on. I highly dislike operatives now. Way to crap on "Rogue" types. Stick with 5e or PF for that type of character.

Operatives get to take 10 on their Trick Attack rolls at level 7 or so.

Yeah but you still have to roll every time and it DOES make sense the DC would increase in a ongoing fight because your enemy is going to realize what you are trying to do. Having to make a roll every time to do that extra damage isn't something I like the idea of. Strike against SF for me.
Scott Henry wrote:
Yeah but you still have to roll every time and it DOES make sense the DC would increase in a ongoing fight because your enemy is going to realize what you are trying to do. Having to make a roll every time to do that extra damage isn't something I like the idea of. Strike against SF for me.

At level 7 you don't have to roll because you have an ability to take ten on the skill(yes, even during combat), which you will likely pass because Operative's skill bonus is amazing(and some of them get an extra +4 while tricking attacking on one of the skills they trick attack with). And the only reason the DC would increase is because you invented a house rule, that doesn't even make sense. By that logic AC should increase every time you attack with the same weapon. Also, just because you are using the same skill to trick attack(btw, you have two skills you can trick attack with) doesn't mean you are preforming the same exact action, the ability is pretty much built for players to improve stuff with in fact. Also, no other skill works in the way you are suggesting. The closest thing I can think of is diplomacy, and even that is your trying to get a greater and greater effect each time(in fact if there attitude goes down for w/e reason, the dc would be the same as it was before, by the rules).

But yes if you go out of your way to nerf trick attack, it will be less effective(but honestly, with their skills, they would probably still have little problem pulling it off anyways).

That's like saying that flanking shouldn't work every turn because the guy you're fighting should catch on, it should only work once per target or you should take an increasing penalty to your attack roll every time you sneak attack someone because they'll realize what you're trying to do, or the DC to Bluff and feint someone in combat should continue to get harder instead of having a static DC...

...in short, the problem would be the GM choosing to screw the player over for arbitrary claims of 'realism'.
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