Advanced Class Guide

My excitement abounds. Slayer (aka Base Class Assassin) and Swashbuckler (ABOUT TIME) are really great concepts that are super fantastic. Shaman fills a long needed niche.

Bloodrager leaves me cold and a name change (non-portmanteau) would be best, I like Ravager.

Warpriest would be better renamed Templar if only to better fit base class naming assumptions.

There's still four archetypes to be announced and I would like to join the lobby for Engineer being among the new classes.

Also I'd like to see the Mystic as a base mystic Theurge option and The Psychic for a new mind magic option.

This all the way!

Rather than a separate skill class, I'd rather see expanded rules for class skills. "If you have X ranks in Y as a class skill, you can do Z," where Z is at least as good, if not better than what a guy with an appropriate-level spell can do.

Then skills other than Perception and Diplomacy would actually matter past 5th level or so.

Personally, I'd rather that the ability to bend the universe to your will be more powerful than the ability to be confined by the laws of universe.

What I would like to see though, are more classes that are magical, but not spellcasters. Something like the monk, but with more choices.

I sort of agree with you Cheapy up to the point where skill investment is within the realm of mere mortals. I don't think skills should emulate what normal people today can accomplish after ten or so ranks just because you can't really reach that benchmark.

Personally, I'd rather that the ability to bend the universe to your will be more powerful than the ability to be confined by the laws of universe.

Magic in the vast majority of fictional settings is given limits. And quite often, non-magical characters are able to exceed those limits on their own, doing without magic what magic cannot do.

I'd like to see more of this in the game, rather than the default assumption that if something can be accomplished without magic, then obviosuly there is a magical spell which will do it. Usually better and more efficiently.

If magic is ALWAYS better than non-magic, that is a fault with how the developers have written the game.

And to me, that makes very little sense. I don't know which 'vast majority of fictional settings' you're referring to, as in all the ones I've been exposed to that isn't the case, unless it's some very specific and weak magic.

Which isn't what D&D and by extension PF are trying to accomplish, so I don't know why these would be brought up.

Maybe you don't like High Magic, and would prefer Low Magic.

But let's make this useful.

What are some things you guys would like to see accomplished without magic, and why can't magic duplicate this effect?

Why did Merlin need Arthur? He was a wizurd, couldn't he have just done all that stuff himself?

Why did Gandalf need Bilbo, Frodo, Aragorn, etc? He was a wizurd, couldn't he have just done all that stuff himself?

Why did Raistlin need Tanis and Cameron and others? He was a wizurd, couldn't he have just done all that stuff himself?

Why is that that most of Harry Potter's victories come about because of his quick thinking, not his wand? He was a wizurd, couldn't he have made shadow puppets, played with owlbear dung, and spoken gibberish to fix it all?

Why does Conan always end up defeating the evil sorcerer? Why can't he just wiggle his fingers and make Conan dead?

But let's make this useful.

What are some things you guys would like to see accomplished without magic, and why can't magic duplicate this effect?

To cut to the chase, I'd like to see any class-abilities absolutely banished from ever having a spell duplicate them.

To cut to the chase, I'd like to see any class-abilities absolutely banished from ever having a spell duplicate them.

Might as well throw out the plows, too. And the carriages, and ladders, and winches, and levers...

How come so many people with Cthulhu names are posting here??

To cut to the chase, I'd like to see any class-abilities absolutely banished from ever having a spell duplicate them.

Okay...spells (and just spells, not quasi-magical abilities like wildshape or ki) under this scheme cannot:

• deal HP damage;
• impose status conditions;
• perform or enhance attacks, damage, and combat maneuvers;
• enhance skill or ability checks;
• grant movement speed beyond base land speed or enhance movement.

That leaves dispelling, summoning, teleportation, illusions, creating undead, and crafting magic items. Problem 1: spellcasters can get around your limitations on magic via summoning or creating undead, just as they can under the current system. Problem 2: spellcasters' most powerful options are actually untouched by this "fix". All the "fix" has done is remove a lot of the spellcasters' ability to buff their allies (except via crafting, which takes a long time) or act as backup if needed.

How come so many people with Cthulhu names are posting here??

Really? Hadn't noticed...

If magic is ALWAYS better than non-magic, that is a fault with how the developers have written the game.

The ship has sailed on that one. Detect traps, knock, jump, spider climb, mending, know direction, and all kinds of other skill-negating spells are in the Core Rulebook.

Which means that the discussion thread for the Advanced Class Guide isn't the place to talk about it. Maybe a thread in Suggestions/Houserules about how you'd like to fix the problem?

I agree with Cheapy, D&D and PF are High Magic games, magic will always have the upper hand here, for the people who don'n like this is because they prefer low magic, but trying to change part of the core of game is just silly, perhaps someday Paizo realizes a subsystem to play low magic campaigns.

Rather than a separate skill class, I'd rather see expanded rules for class skills. "If you have X ranks in Y as a class skill, you can do Z," where Z is at least as good, if not better than what a guy with an appropriate-level spell can do.

Then skills other than Perception and Diplomacy would actually matter past 5th level or so.

Wouldn't people just complain that it's an upgrade to casters, who also get skill points, and thus get all the benefits of the new system plus spells?

Hell, the Wizard with his high Int gets more skill points than most classes. Having all those sweet extra skill abilities probably means he can free up some of his spell slots for better offensive spells, or at the very least save some money scribing scrolls.

I agree with Cheapy, D&D and PF are High Magic games, magic will always have the upper hand here, for the people who don'n like this is because they prefer low magic, but trying to change part of the core of game is just silly, perhaps someday Paizo realizes a subsystem to play low magic campaigns.

Your assumption on motivation is totally incorrect. I don't like it. Not because of any "low-magic" preference, but because I actually understand what the terms "character level" and "CR" mean.

Sample test question: 1. A PC's power is intended to be measured using (a) character class, or (b) character level? Pick one, and one only.

OK, but what do people want for skilled characters in this book?

I agree with Cheapy, D&D and PF are High Magic games, magic will always have the upper hand here, for the people who don'n like this is because they prefer low magic, but trying to change part of the core of game is just silly, perhaps someday Paizo realizes a subsystem to play low magic campaigns.

I agree as well, however I think this means that non casting classes need some sort of martial super powers or be more adept at skills and physical prowess. (both, not one or the other. )

OK, but what do people want for skilled characters in this book?

Mad skillz, yo!

How come so many people with Cthulhu names are posting here??

It's all in your mind. These are not the droids you're looking for.

I think this means that non casting classes need some sort of martial super powers or be more adept at skills and physical prowess. (both, not one or the other. )

Yes, indeed. Or else scrap the whole concept of "character level." Or play Ars Magica.

I agree with Cheapy, D&D and PF are High Magic games, magic will always have the upper hand here, for the people who don't like this is because they prefer low magic, but trying to change part of the core of game is just silly, perhaps someday Paizo realizes a subsystem to play low magic campaigns.

"High magic" does not mean "Magic is better than everything".

High magic means magic is abundant, yes. It may even mean that it is powerful.

But it does NOT mean that casting is automatically more powerful than anything else you could possibly conceive of doing and it is NOT an excuse for lopsided game design.

In fact, a High magic world should be MORE conducive to allowing "mundanes" to perform great Feats, since one of the usual tropes of a High magic world is the "Magical background radiation" that permeates everyone and everything, imbuing many with more than mundane abilities, though they must be trained and honed to a point.

So, this magical background radiation would make their abilities magical. Because it's augmented by magic. If it's not mundane, it's magic.

That's where I find this silly. Is it purely mundane, or is it assisted by magic?

Do people just want powerful non-CASTERS (which is very so much distinct from non-MAGICAL)?

So, this magical background radiation would make their abilities magical. Because it's augmented by magic. If it's not mundane, it's magic.

It's mundane for the world they're in, however. Mundane is relative.

To people here on Earth, the ability to float around wherever you want would be magical.

In space it's mundane.

Same deal here.

Do people just want powerful non-CASTERS

Yes.

The uncountable multitude of threads saying "Make the non-casters/martial classes as good as the casters!" should speak to that.

However you do it, let non-casters be fantastic too.

Floating in space would still be mundane. Mundane is non-magical. I think you guys are just using a definition that differs from mine of what mundane means. Just like most people seem to confuse martials with 'noncaster', when even three of the full spellcasting classes are martial.

I also would like non-casters who can do cool stuff, but that's far different from non-magical.

Floating in space would still be mundane. Mundane is non-magical. I think you guys are just using a definition that differs from mine of what mundane means.

I'm using the dictionary definition of the term.

mun·dane
adjective \ˌmən-ˈdān, ˈmən-ˌ\ 1: of, relating to, or characteristic of the world

Magic is characteristic of a High magic world. Magic is mundane, at the very least small amounts of ability augmenting magic are.

You just have to look at the Barbarian to see this in action. It's definitely not natural by OUR standards, some of the things he can do (skin hard enough to turn blades, for example. DR is an Ex last I checked), but they ARE by Golarion standards.

Funny, I was going to say the same thing.

But if you include "magical" in "mundane", then there's nothing really that isn't mundane. Which means it's a useless term.

But enough semantics.

What sort of abilities would you like to see, Rynjin?

Floating in space would still be mundane. Mundane is non-magical. I think you guys are just using a definition that differs from mine of what mundane means. Just like most people seem to confuse martials with 'noncaster', when even three of the full spellcasting classes are martial.

I also would like non-casters who can do cool stuff, but that's far different from non-magical.

I'm in the camp that Fighters should either have sword skills that fall in or near wuxia levels of power, Charles Atlas Powers i.e. lifted weights so much that he can now do things beyond mundane like choke-hold a dragon, or had access to skill usage that would take a lot of spell casting to replicate.

Some of that isn't magical but its definitely not mundane. In a magicked up system like Pathfinder I think 'mundane' classes could stand to have some (Su)'s

That said I'd love to see another book of Golarion prestige classes, or a hardcover which collates all the prestige classes to date(well form sources other than the core and ultimate books probably) and add more - ULTIMATE PRESTIGE! Could also have guidelines and insights on design like this one offers for class and archetype..

this is already a thing!

It might actually be kind of cool to have some sort of class that gets its skills "supercharged" as it levels, such that some of their "ordinary skills" can rival magical powers or the sorts of ways magic can accomplish the same things skills can (but better! as some would have it).

Kind of a skill-based equivalent of a monk, I guess.

I think that a large part of the problem is that we don't have a clear system for how magic WORKS. magic seems to work as the plot demands rather than be based on any universal laws. for example, how exactly does the spell "lightning bolt" work exactly? are you rewriting physics, controlling actual physics to control electrons, or are you summoning lightning that already exists from some other plane of existence? spells like "detect traps" feel way too specialized. how does the spell know what constitutes a trap? divine might work out as the god watching over you, but arcane would need some serious explanation.

with that in mind, if we are dealing with magic that is governed solely via "rule of cool" (as it very much appears to be) rather than by an actual system of physics, then it makes sense that abilities and skills should also be governed the same way. abilities so far seem fine, but skills need more attention in this department. high acrobatics (combined with maybe a feat or class ability) should allow you to jump 30ft in the air. high stealth should make you practically invisible (perception working to negate). high swim should let you not only stay afloat, but swim fast and fight underwater like the same as on land etc.

It might actually be kind of cool to have some sort of class that gets its skills "supercharged" as it levels, such that some of their "ordinary skills" can rival magical powers or the sorts of ways magic can accomplish the same things skills can (but better! as some would have it).

Kind of a skill-based equivalent of a monk, I guess.

...I quite like that idea. Skill version of the monk. Hmmmmm.

Obviously, it would be easier to do with some skills than others (Super Climbing, Super Athletics; Charm-like Diplomacy; Fear-inducing Intimidate) than others (Super Linguistics?), but I imagine something could be worked out, even if just as "spell-like" abilities would have to be created to work with them (Create Symbols like the spells with your Super Linguistics, etc.)

Excited, I decided I wanted to play an Orc Rage Prophet for Wrath of the Righteous to play a Shaman type class like those found back in *whisper* Warcraft... And then I saw Shaman. I'm complete.
I'm excited they're doing this, since they decided to completely wreck PrCs and Multiclassing. For good or for bad.

I would suggest altering skill focus to include supernatural skill potential. You can do X when you first get skill focus, and you can do Y when you hit ten ranks in the skill.

I think I mentioned this somewhere else.... I can't recall where.

edduardco wrote:

I agree with Cheapy, D&D and PF are High Magic games, magic will always have the upper hand here, for the people who don'n like this is because they prefer low magic, but trying to change part of the core of game is just silly, perhaps someday Paizo realizes a subsystem to play low magic campaigns.

Your assumption on motivation is totally incorrect. I don't like it. Not because of any "low-magic" preference, but because I actually understand what the terms "character level" and "CR" mean.

Sample test question: 1. A PC's power is intended to be measured using (a) character class, or (b) character level? Pick one, and one only.

b) Character level. Lets clarify something I'm not saying noncasters should suck, but quite the opposite, instead of nerfing magic like some people is suggesting others classes less favored should have their portion of "magic" (sorry I can't find other term that suits better).

I one of those who believe all classes should have cool powers, for me martial should be more like shonen anime characters specially at high levels, but some people don't like that kind of stuff in pure martials classes and I don't understand why if this is a High Magic/Fantasy game. Another point concerning spell that get on top of skills, if we are talking that magic bend reality then it should allow you to do anything, but with a cost, power come with a costs, maybe if the cost is too high then casters will say "it will be better if the noncaster do this".

Obviously, it would be easier to do with some skills than others (Super Climbing, Super Athletics; Charm-like Diplomacy; Fear-inducing Intimidate) than others (Super Linguistics?), but I imagine something could be worked out, even if just as "spell-like" abilities would have to be created to work with them (Create Symbols like the spells with your Super Linguistics, etc.)

That would be a neat system of magic for a game very much other than this one. Instead of a 'spider-climb spell' that does all the work for you, a character could learn to augment his mundane Climb skill to perform supernatural feats, like scuttling up walls or clinging to the ceiling while firing a crossbow.

Appraise would upgrade to a divination effect to tell exactly what something is, and, eventually, to tell the magical properties of something.

Perception would upgrade to effects like blind-fighting and ignoring concealment miss chances and stuff.

Handle Animal -> animal control.

Diplomacy -> people control.

Intimidate - fear effects.

'Magic,' in this system, would be entirely based on supernaturally enhanced skill uses, and a 'wizard' couldn't learn fear if he didn't have the mundane Intimidate skill to back it up (and would be stuck with lesser effects, if he's got lesser ranks, sort of like how some bardic Performances require X ranks of Perform). He wants to 'cause fear' on a single target, or inflict the shaken condition on a group, that's pretty low stuff, but he wants to create a dragon-sized aura of terror or cause multiple foes to be reduced to cowering in a single shot, that's going to require enough ranks in Intimidate that he might not be able to pull that off until 10th level.

There's a lot magic that doesn't necessarily partner up with a skill. Throwing fireballs won't happen as much as enchantment effects or supernaturally enhanced disguise effects or enhanced craft effects to create weapons, armor or difficult terrain / walls / restraints instantly or becoming invisible with 'super-stealth' or reading people's minds or histories with magic-enhanced 'knowledge - local' or 'knowledge - history' checks.

(And yeah, that's hardly an original idea. I've seen it before on the boards, just don't remember who to credit for it.)

That would be a very different game, 'though, one built all in one piece, with skills and magic right from day one, unlike D&D, which started out with a huge list of spells, and later, some skills, which seemed like poor cousins by comparison, and only recently have been tied into some spells (such as Knowledge - Arcana and Spellcraft being used alongside detect magic to ID items).

Even now, decades after 'nonweapon proficiencies' were introduced, the Heal skill has no real interaction with magic or cure spells (other than being able to treat the wounds from spike stones or spike growth) and Perception has no bearing on how well your divination spells work. That said, lots of spells do interact with the spell system, in new editions, such as alter self affecting Disguise checks, invisibility affecting Stealth checks, glibness affecting Bluff checks, etc.

After some pondering, I think I like the idea of a monk/bard hybrid. A sage. A little in the direction of the sensei archetype - but do something completely different with it.

Personally, I'd rather that the ability to bend the universe to your will be more powerful than the ability to be confined by the laws of universe.

What I would like to see though, are more classes that are magical, but not spellcasters. Something like the monk, but with more choices.

I agree with you on both parts, but especially the second sentence. It's one of the things I like about the alchemist. And it's why I strongly dislike suggestions by some on these boards and in my gaming group that the alchemist should be just "another spellcaster".

this is already a thing!

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8thj?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Paths-of-Pre stige

64 page book. I'm talking 200 odd page hardcover, in line with the rest of the ultimate line. Similar to this but covering prestige classes and collating all the info to date plus more - spells, feats specific to, or closely aligned to the prestige classes and organization they represent. Sort of a mega-expansion to the paths of prestige book (which is a great book).

I'd kind of like to see a Monk/Sorcerer class. Kind of a magically charged monk (not like the Qingong, although that's close). I'm thinking more like a Sage or Temple Guardian. Alternately, a Monk/Oracle type, again Sage or Temple Guardian. I'd say both, but I doubt they'll do both.

I'm looking for someone who devotes their life to physical persuits as well as magical studies, someone who tries to balance either mind and body, or spirit and body (depending on which classes get mashed together).

I'd kind of like to see a Monk/Sorcerer class. Kind of a magically charged monk (not like the Qingong, although that's close). I'm thinking more like a Sage or Temple Guardian. Alternately, a Monk/Oracle type, again Sage or Temple Guardian. I'd say both, but I doubt they'll do both.

I'm looking for someone who devotes their life to physical persuits as well as magical studies, someone who tries to balance either mind and body, or spirit and body (depending on which classes get mashed together).

This! But since there are 4 other classes and no love for the monk yet I'm kind of hoping at least one of these will make the cut if not both.

I'd like to see some kind of Warlock class. This was one of my favourite 3.5 classes but the at will abilities always caused concern among my group. Seeing this retooled as some kind of wizard/rogue hybrid would be great, perhaps along the lines of the arcane trickster.

I always thought the warlock would be an easy conversion using the bard as a template. Just use bardic performance as eldritch blast and add extra costs for each kind of invocation so that your spending two or three rounds of "arcane juju" per blast.

Okay, I'm not the go-to guy for class design, by any means, but hear me out on this.

People want a skill-monk-ey, pardon the pun.

People want skills that are non-magical, but at the least on par with, if not better than, the same skills replicated by magic, resultant in non-magical peoples having a place of awesome without necessarily having to be combat monsters.

In the spirit of hybridization intent, and inspired by the slight case of such in the Ninja alternate class, might I pitch/present for your contemplative pleasure...

The Guru.

Rather than the blend being Rogue with Monk-style Ki, the Guru would be a Monk with Rogue-like skill points, though not necessarily applied to Rogue-type skills. There would still be a Ki pool, but instead of being applied purely to combat abilities, there could be an application of where Ki servers to supercharge skills for purposes of nearly-to-outright-supernatural levels of aptitude. Instead of expending Ki to do so, for all things, the Guru spends Ki ONLY in the event that said skill is untrained or not a class skill at low levels, , untrained at moderate, and near capstone treats any skill as trained as long as there are points in his or her Ki pool.

The only overt form of magic applied is the 'magic' of serene hypercompetence - they don't have to do it all the time, as far as normal functionality goes. However, being able to turn that knowledge into applicable action will be the trick - Linguistics boosted could function effectively as a Comprehend Languages, so long as they hear the other person speak first. Bluff can duplicate Undetectable Lie at sufficiently high skill level; Disguise becomes a non-magical 'Alter Self', while Heal would function as a Cure X Wounds of the skill-level equivalency when boosted with Ki.

The main distinction between levels of ability would, of course, be that when unboosted they are treated as being higher than they actually are (a sort of passive "+class level to the skill used"), versus spending Ki to double the effective class level in a skills, or say two Ki to be treated as both trained AND still retain the +class level bonus to skills, taken to a level that might be compared to those threads on Other Boards where results from a 'natural 20' are taken to supernatural levels.

TL;DR Monk-type class achieving spell-like effect via skills plus chi, that doesn't detect as magic, pulling off feats of relatively mundane awesome worthy of memetic mutation.

Quicker and easier to give the rogue bard casting, with "spells" renamed "skill exploits" or something. They'd come from a list culled from skill-encroaching/skill-superseding spells (feather fall, find traps, discern lies, etc.). Caster level would be equal to the number of ranks in the applicable skill.

I always thought the warlock would be an easy conversion using the bard as a template. Just use bardic performance as eldritch blast and add extra costs for each kind of invocation so that your spending two or three rounds of "arcane juju" per blast.

That sounds like what a Magus does when he spend his Arcane Pool to meta-magic things on the fly.

Trogdar wrote:

I always thought the warlock would be an easy conversion using the bard as a template. Just use bardic performance as eldritch blast and add extra costs for each kind of invocation so that your spending two or three rounds of "arcane juju" per blast.

That sounds like what a Magus does when he spend his Arcane Pool to meta-magic things on the fly.

See, I feel like I'm the only person who, instead of a staff magus or sword magus, wanted a tonfa magus whose weapons were basically tonfa-fied metamagic rods.

TL;DR I wanted to play Dynasty Warriors' Sun Ce as a magus.

Also, if you are envisioning my terrible attempt at the Guru class idea with a mastery of the Anything Goes School of Martial Arts, well, it's not exactly what I was after, but I went for monk/rogue specifically because the motif in my head was Martial Arts and Crafts.

Regarding all this non-magical skill class stuff, you could just check out the Enlightened Scholar class in Heroes of the Jade Oath by Rite Publishing. It can be an engineer, an inventor, a bureaucrat, a physician, a magistrate, or whatever.