Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play: Guide 5.0 and Changes to Organized Play

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Isn't that how it works now? I mean if you are a 3 playing in a 4-5, you would be playing up and getting that gold.

But now you are getting the “out of tier” gold instead of getting the full amount.

The one thing I don’t like is the forced sub-tiers depending on your table size. Even if your party is of that sub-tier (in the 3-4 example) and you only have 5 players, you need to play down. Don’t really like that. At least that’s how I understand it.

CRobledo wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Humm...I can see this causing some mustering issues then. And it makes NO sense. So your playing a 3 in a 4-5 up. You have more risk. You get LESS gold then a 3-4?!? Yeah...no, I think that needs to be fixed.

But if you are playing a 3 in a 1-2, you are getting way more than 1-2 gold. So it evens out.

CRobledo wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Humm...I can see this causing some mustering issues then. And it makes NO sense. So your playing a 3 in a 4-5 up. You have more risk. You get LESS gold then a 3-4?!? Yeah...no, I think that needs to be fixed.

My assumption is they believe that a level 3 character would play "up" as much as "down", effectively working out to the same (since the times playing down = less risk for more reward).

If that fact is troublesome, then I guess my suggestion is to only play 3-7s (subtier 3-4) with level 3 characters?

Ninjer'd by the fish

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Why is that sad? I like that I can now count on my 3rd-level PCs getting appropriate gold, so I can play wherever muster puts me and not worry about it.

MisterSlanky wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Care Baird wrote:

This seems pretty legit to me.

Meh. I prefer this one, instead.

HA! I have a lower number than you! :)

Phsaw...

Ha ha I have a lower PFS ID (1859) than all of you and even less stars! Showing that I am... lazier... than... all of you! Woot!

I remember lamenting that 1844 was high...

How much less? So far, I'm thinking level 3's come out ahead on this because of all the baby tables they end up at.

Why is that sad?

I guess I meant sadly for Cold Napalm... I'm actually in favor of this change as well.

CRobledo wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Wait...I thought out of sub tier meant that your a 1-2 playing in a 4-5. If your 3 playing in a 4-5 you are in tier aren't you?!? Or am I miss reading it?

Sadly, no. Players "in between" (e.g. a level 3 in a Tier 1-5) would always be considered to be "out of tier"

Isn't that how it works now? I mean if you are a 3 playing in a 4-5, you would be playing up and getting that gold.

But now you are getting the “out of tier” gold instead of getting the full amount.

The one thing I don’t like is the forced sub-tiers depending on your table size. Even if your party is of that sub-tier (in the 3-4 example) and you only have 5 players, you need to play down. Don’t really like that. At least that’s how I understand it.

In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.

Frankly, lots of level 3 builds don't fare well in a 4-5 mission. Sorcerers, for example, are usually kind of a liability as they only have level 1 spells and have not been able to swap anything out. Whereas DEATH BARBARIAN can play up trivially. This rule makes things a bit more fair from build to build.

I recall this question being asked, but I don't think I saw an answer: is the new Inventory Track Sheet mandatory, or just a convenience being offered?

Level 3's playing up in a 4-5 earn on average 83 gold less than playing in a 3-4 subtier. EIGHTY THREE GOLD, EVERYBODY PANIC!

That's what I thought. A trivial difference.

Level 3's playing up in a 4-5 earn on average 83 gold less than playing in a 3-4 subtier. EIGHTY THREE GOLD, EVERYBODY PANIC!

I know, right?

Why aren't people already panicking about the fact that every scenario doesn't give the same gold value?

How should upgrading items be treated on the Tracking sheet. I'm assuming you treat it as "bought" and write "upgrade from +1 to +2" for instance.

Level 3's playing up in a 4-5 earn on average 83 gold less than playing in a 3-4 subtier. EIGHTY THREE GOLD, EVERYBODY PANIC!

My barbarian sighs, as that is ten donkeys he will now have to go without.

How should upgrading items be treated on the Tracking sheet. I'm assuming you treat it as "bought" and write "upgrade from +1 to +2" for instance.

This is what I did.

Ha ha I have a lower PFS ID (1859) than all of you and even less stars! Showing that I am... lazier... than... all of you! Woot!

1859? N00b. :P

Also, I just got my second star, making me even lazier than you.

I should also point out that scenarios have a 'strongly recommended' 5% wealth variance which means that 3-4 and out of tier 4-5 can overlap. But OMG, three scenarios at 83 gold, that's like 249 gold or something! I'll never be able to make that up by continually targeting tables that will let me play up every single time so that I can get the most wealth possible so I can be the strongest character ever and walk all over scenarios and complain on the messageboards that scenarios are too easy and then cry when my character can't get all its prestige in a mission or an item gets crossed off its sheet or some GM targets my character and kills it even though the tactics don't explicitly state that it will eat my character.

Thanks for adding the retraining rules. I haven't played PFS since Season 2 due to not being able to retool characters to take advantage of new rules (particularly archtypes that have to be chosen at 1st level). I have at least one character I'm looking forward to taking out of retirement (assuming I can still find his character/tracking sheets).

Glen Shackleton wrote:

Ha ha I have a lower PFS ID (1859) than all of you and even less stars! Showing that I am... lazier... than... all of you! Woot!

1859? N00b. :P

Also, I just got my second star, making me even lazier than you.

I find your lack of effort, inspiring.

I recall this question being asked, but I don't think I saw an answer: is the new Inventory Track Sheet mandatory, or just a convenience being offered?

It will be mandatory. I have added some language in Step 10 of Character Creation to move towards that.

Additionally, the following is already in the Guide:

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items,

so you may only purchase items during or after a scenario. All
transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

Any equipment purchased or

sold should be tracked on the character’s current Inventory
Tracking Sheet, denoting the Character Chronicle # (A) next
to the item purchased, sold, or expended during the course of
the scenario or after its conclusion.

I should also point out that scenarios have a 'strongly recommended' 5% wealth variance which means that 3-4 and out of tier 4-5 can overlap. But OMG, three scenarios at 83 gold, that's like 249 gold or something! I'll never be able to make that up by continually targeting tables that will let me play up every single time so that I can get the most wealth possible so I can be the strongest character ever and walk all over scenarios and complain on the messageboards that scenarios are too easy and then cry when my character can't get all its prestige in a mission or an item gets crossed off its sheet or some GM targets my character and kills it even though the tactics don't explicitly state that it will eat my character.

Besides, what kind of author would write a scenario where the tactics explicitly say a monster will drag your character away for lunch?

How should upgrading items be treated on the Tracking sheet. I'm assuming you treat it as "bought" and write "upgrade from +1 to +2" for instance.

Correct

Kyle Baird wrote:

Level 3's playing up in a 4-5 earn on average 83 gold less than playing in a 3-4 subtier. EIGHTY THREE GOLD, EVERYBODY PANIC!

My barbarian sighs, as that is ten donkeys he will now have to go without.

On the plus side, you'll earn 667 gold more every time your level 3 plays a scenario at the 1-2 subtier. MORE DONKEYS!

Besides, what kind of author would write a scenario where the tactics explicitly say a monster will drag your character away for lunch?

Hungry authors. Just saw a picture of deep fried peanut butter and bacon nuggets with a Leinenkugel Berry Weiss Jelly. State Fair, here I come!

Thanks for adding the retraining rules. I haven't played PFS since Season 2 due to not being able to retool characters to take advantage of new rules (particularly archtypes that have to be chosen at 1st level). I have at least one character I'm looking forward to taking out of retirement (assuming I can still find his character/tracking sheets).

Welcome back Robert!

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Jiggy wrote:

I recall this question being asked, but I don't think I saw an answer: is the new Inventory Track Sheet mandatory, or just a convenience being offered?

It will be mandatory. I have added some language in Step 10 of Character Creation to move towards that.

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items,

so you may only purchase items during or after a scenario.

Hm, could we perhaps add "before" to "during or after"?

For those doing math at home, the maximum PC wealth just changed from 177k to 144k. The average or in-tier remains around 110k. The minimum a character can earn rose from about 56k to 86k.

Jiggy, I'm not one to encourage breaking rules, but I know that is something that has never been enforced in the three years I've played. The GMs I've had, including at PaizoCon and GenCon, have had no issues purchasing/selling items away from the table.

Maybe they will crack down on that for this season, I don't know. But I hope not.

Michael Brock wrote:

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Yes.

I should also point out that scenarios have a 'strongly recommended' 5% wealth variance which means that 3-4 and out of tier 4-5 can overlap. But OMG, three scenarios at 83 gold, that's like 249 gold or something! I'll never be able to make that up by continually targeting tables that will let me play up every single time so that I can get the most wealth possible so I can be the strongest character ever and walk all over scenarios and complain on the messageboards that scenarios are too easy and then cry when my character can't get all its prestige in a mission or an item gets crossed off its sheet or some GM targets my character and kills it even though the tactics don't explicitly state that it will eat my character.

I love you Kyle. :)

Not in that way you sick man...

FAQ added for Inventory Tracking Sheet.

Hobbun wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Yes.

Well, ok.

Thanks for the response.

For those doing math at home, the maximum PC wealth just changed from 177k to 144k. The average or in-tier remains around 110k. The minimum a character can earn rose from about 56k to 86k.

Dang it Kyle! I was going to do that math!

Tomorrow... maybe...

Hobbun wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Yes.

Thanks for the quick response, even though it's not the answer I was hoping for. I've never been a fan of redundant paperwork, and I can see this leading to more players being lazy about keeping up with their paperwork.

For applying GM credits to OoS (out of sub-tier) characters, do you get OoS gold?

Jiggy, I'm not one to encourage breaking rules, but I know that is something that has never been enforced in the three years I've played. The GMs I've had, including at PaizoCon and GenCon, have had no issues purchasing/selling items away from the table.

Maybe they will crack down on that for this season, I don't know. But I hope not.

Not only have I never seen that rule enforced, but I keep hoping to see it eliminated whenever a new Guide comes out. As long as the chronicles (and now Inventory Tracking Sheet) are kept up to date, making your purchases between adventures is clearly the easiest way to handle things.

Hobbun wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Yes.

Have to say, I'm not a fan of this at all. There's already enough stuff to keep track of. It's just another time sink into making and creating a character and maintenance, and yet another thing to explain to a new player.

For applying GM credits to OoS (out of sub-tier) characters, do you get OoS gold?

I would assume so. Hey, that's actually pretty sweet...

Benrislove wrote:

For applying GM credits to OoS (out of sub-tier) characters, do you get OoS gold?

I would assume so. Hey, that's actually pretty sweet...

Right?! now I can run 1-5's and actually level up some of these level 3's ^_^

Michael Brock wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

All

transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracker.

So Mike, to be clear, we need to record our purchases/sales on the Chronicle sheet 'and' the Inventory Tracker?

Yes.

Have to say, I'm not a fan of this at all. There's already enough stuff to keep track of. It's just another time sink into making and creating a character and maintenance, and yet another thing to explain to a new player.

Have to agree with Yiroep, as well as Fromper, in regard to this.

I understand it may be a bit easier for the GM to keep track of items for players in audits, but that is also something that I've never had enforced.

I think it's just going to turn too many people off. I've seen GMs at our store have enough trouble as is trying to enforce (some of the) players keeping the chronicle sheet updated.

Have to say, I'm not a fan of this at all. There's already enough stuff to keep track of. It's just another time sink into making and creating a character and maintenance, and yet another thing to explain to a new player.

Well, let's see. Since it is a straight copy, we can assume that it will take exactly the same time after a game to fill the chronicle sheet out as it does to fill in the inventory sheet (actually it will take less, but for this example, let's go with that).

It takes me on average 1-2 minutes to fill in a whole chronicle sheet. So it will take me 2-3 minutes to fill both now. Not that big a difference. The time to research what items I do want to buy and such stays the same...

Plus it has some spaces for wand charges, which the regular PFRPG sheets has.

It will present a bit of an extra hassle for people who keep track or play their characters off a tablet instead of paper, but, we will see where this takes us.

I think it's just going to turn too many people off. I've seen GMs at our store have enough trouble as is trying to enforce (some of the) players keeping the chronicle sheet updated.

Then why not give the GMs a tool to help enforce that? Bad habits are hard to break. Only one way to break em...

Hobbun wrote:

Jiggy, I'm not one to encourage breaking rules, but I know that is something that has never been enforced in the three years I've played. The GMs I've had, including at PaizoCon and GenCon, have had no issues purchasing/selling items away from the table.

Maybe they will crack down on that for this season, I don't know. But I hope not.

Not only have I never seen that rule enforced, but I keep hoping to see it eliminated whenever a new Guide comes out. As long as the chronicles (and now Inventory Tracking Sheet) are kept up to date, making your purchases between adventures is clearly the easiest way to handle things.

Even if it's just by adding the "before", so that you can plan purchases between sessions, then have the GM OK them at the start of the next.

As is, by the letter of the rules some scenarios start without the opportunity to shop and many times there isn't enough real time at the end of a scenario to do purchases.

Kyle Baird wrote:

Benrislove wrote:

For applying GM credits to OoS (out of sub-tier) characters, do you get OoS gold?

I would assume so. Hey, that's actually pretty sweet...

Right?! now I can run 1-5's and actually level up some of these level 3's ^_^

Just checked, and this is, indeed, how it works. Page 37 in the second paragraph from the bottom:

Should a GM receive a chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between sub tiers (For example, if she runs a Tier 1-5 scenario but gives a 3rd-level character the Chronicle sheet), she must always receive the Out-of-Subtier gold value.

This is a very good thing, in my opinion.

Benrislove wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Benrislove wrote:

For applying GM credits to OoS (out of sub-tier) characters, do you get OoS gold?

I would assume so. Hey, that's actually pretty sweet...

Right?! now I can run 1-5's and actually level up some of these level 3's ^_^

Just checked, and this is, indeed, how it works. Page 37 in the second paragraph from the bottom:

PFSGtOP Page 37 wrote:

Should a GM receive a chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between sub tiers (For example, if she runs a Tier 1-5 scenario but gives a 3rd-level character the Chronicle sheet), she must always receive the Out-of-Subtier gold value.

This is a very good thing, in my opinion.

*continues to remember the days of 1 XP, 1/2 gold, half PP and no boons...*

Hobbun wrote:

I think it's just going to turn too many people off. I've seen GMs at our store have enough trouble as is trying to enforce (some of the) players keeping the chronicle sheet updated.

Then why not give the GMs a tool to help enforce that? Bad habits are hard to break. Only one way to break em...

I don't think anyone's complaining about the Inventory Tracking Sheet. On the contrary, I love the extra details that aren't currently tracked on the chronicles, and the fact that it seems easier to use. This is a better tool, which I think will help make it easier to convince players to actually keep up with their paperwork.

I was just hoping it would replace the items sold/bought section of the chronicles, rather than being redundant with it.

I've given the GM star replay bit some thought, and I have a suggestion for the revised edition of the rule.

Would it be possible to leave things as are, then only let it refresh for one year if the replay doesn't work out? I ask because I am currently contemplating the usage of my star replays, and I don't want to use 2-3 of them this year if I will never get them back.

I also think that restricting them to a lifetime thing makes them more commonly abused. Why? Because rather than focusing on which scenarios we really want to replay because we enjoyed them, we have to ask ourselves whether or not there will be a special chronicle later (WBG2, for instance) that we will want to replay. To get the full picture, I think it's important that Paizo give at least one guaranteed year of refreshing, and then reconsider come next GenCon.

CRobledo wrote:

Hobbun wrote:

I think it's just going to turn too many people off. I've seen GMs at our store have enough trouble as is trying to enforce (some of the) players keeping the chronicle sheet updated.

Then why not give the GMs a tool to help enforce that? Bad habits are hard to break. Only one way to break em...

I don't think anyone's complaining about the Inventory Tracking Sheet. On the contrary, I love the extra details that aren't currently tracked on the chronicles, and the fact that it seems easier to use. This is a better tool, which I think will help make it easier to convince players to actually keep up with their paperwork.

I was just hoping it would replace the items sold/bought section of the chronicles, rather than being redundant with it.

This. I have some chronicles that are pretty much illegible due to the number of items written on there. It also makes me a bit self-conscious when writing fun notes in the "notes" section of chronicles as a GM - am I taking too much of my players' space?