Animals and Their Tricks

Speaking is a free action you can take when it isn't your turn, but you cannot take just any free action when it isn't your turn.

A short list of free actions you cannot take when it's someone else's turn:

- dropping prone
- dropping an item
- raging/stopping rage
- using Quick Draw to draw a weapon so you threaten the guy trying to grapple you

I agree, those things are indeed free actions that you can take only on your turn. Speaking is a free action that is specifically described as being able to be taken at any time.

Took me a second - you're just pointing out that speaking is the ONLY free action that can be taken at any time, right? Forgive me. It's late, and I'm slow on the uptake right now...

nosig wrote:

I've always kind of had a problem with defining when the AC can "Defend" a PC. How does the animal know when to defend you and when it's not an attack. If you have your AC on "defend" (which makes sense to me)

Since real world police dogs without mystical links, room temperature IQ's, and the ability to speak with their owners make that distinction all the time, I'd imagine they decide if their owner is being attacked the same way anyone else does.

A family member trains his g. shepards in schutzhund and it is incredibly silly to think that a trained guard dog would not immediately attack any perceived threat to itself or its master. The dogs have been trained to not wait for a command to do their job, in fact, thats mostly what their job is, to defend against/attack anything that may threaten their space. If you don't want your attack animal to attack things, that is what the leash or fence or whatever else is for, to stop them from killing all sorts of things the trainer doesn't want them to kill when the master isn't right there to stop it from doing so. If a bear, dragon, or humanoid unknown to said AC approaches and initiative is rolled, that AC should automatically act to defend itself and its master (initiative shouldnt even need to be rolled for this to happen)... it's often on the trainer/master to stop them from attacking, not the other way around. If it is truly just a guard animal, it very well may just alert, and not attack, but if it has been trained to be aggressive towards perceived threats that cross the ACs threshold of "too close to me or my master" it shouldn't need any handling for it to bite, claw, or do whatever else it does. This would seem to me to be common sense... you don't buy a guard dog expecting it to sit and look pretty until you let it know something is afoot... it lets you know something is afoot, and you need to let it know to chill and look pretty if you don't agree.

Secondly, the idea of an attack dog not attacking undead, or a construct or something... Well trained guard dogs will attack all sorts of stuff that they see as a threat, living or not. Covered in flesh or made of metal, it doesn't really matter. If they think cars are a threat, they will bite cars... if they think trees are a threat, they will bite trees, and I personally haven't met many dogs that didn't find weeks or months old rotting flesh to be anything but a great snack lol.

Related to the discussion about AC's that know a language, my Ranger has taken the Celestial Servant feat, which gives his AC the celestial template, turning it into a Magical Beast.

If I were to bump it's INT to 3 and give it a point of lingistics, whould I still have to use the Animal rules for controlling it? In my games I would say no since it is sentient (INT>2) and not an animal and thus fulfills nither of the conditions of having to use Handle Animal.

In PFS though I am assuming that there is table variation, since I have a feeling that the intent of the PFS rulings on this matter are to make it so that no matter what you do, any creature given by the "Animal Companion" class feature require the use of Handle Animal. While I personally find that idea silly and gameist I could see that being the sort of thing the leadership is trying to enforce in PFS. Is there actually a ruling on Magical Beasts, or is it going to be left up to the dreaded table variation?

PS: The addition of new tricks is a textbook illustration of how rules bloat can start to cramp play. Especially in PFS, I am disappointing that the answer to "I want my AC to try this creative thing" could now be "Not until you buy this other book".

... the idea of an attack dog not attacking undead, or a construct or something... Well trained guard dogs will attack all sorts of stuff that they see as a threat, living or not. Covered in flesh or made of metal, it doesn't really matter. If they think cars are a threat, they will bite cars... if they think trees are a threat, they will bite trees, and I personally haven't met many dogs that didn't find weeks or months old rotting flesh to be anything but a great snack lol.

The first thing that I would like to say about how dogs typically behave, and when they will act, is: Stubs, you're dead on. Absolutely correct. When I was a boy, I grew up with a Great Dane, and my mom would often have to tell him to stop barking, or make him back down every once in a while when my dad would be playing with her. Sometimes the Dane didn't understand that tickling wasn't a dangerous attack on my mom. Or if he was chasing her around the laundry line in the backyard, she wasn't really scared of him when she squealed and ran away. :D

The thing about undead, though ... I think that you might be applying too much real-world knowledge to this part. I've totally seen dogs bite cars, and I do know that they will mess around with a carcass. But, the thing of it is: this has more to do with fantasy lore. There is a trope about animals being wary, or shying away from undead. They always seem to react negatively to a vampire, even though he looks normal, or hiss/bark/growl when the strange monster is near ...
So, it's not so much about real-world physical things, it's more about the negative energy that pervades the presence of undead. Or maybe it's that they smell different. Or that dogs have a sense of the ether ... or whatever. In a fantasy world, dogs react in a fantasy way.

As far as animal companions attacking undead, don't forget you can train them to attack anything. This is an option under handle animal, attack trick. The standard off the shelf attack animal may not be able to (the combat training purpose only trains basic attack and five other specific tricks), but this should be one of the tricks you teach an animal companion right away.

As far as animal companions attacking undead, don't forget you can train them to attack anything. This is an option under handle animal, attack trick. The standard off the shelf attack animal may not be able to (the combat training purpose only trains basic attack and five other specific tricks), but this should be one of the tricks you teach an animal companion right away.

To be more Specfic, If you want to have an Animal (Companion or not) to be able to attack Undead without being pushed, they need to be trained the Attack Trick twice.

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Speaking is a free action you can take when it isn't your turn, but you cannot take just any free action when it isn't your turn.

A short list of free actions you cannot take when it's someone else's turn:

- dropping prone
- dropping an item
- raging/stopping rage
- using Quick Draw to draw a weapon so you threaten the guy trying to grapple you

I agree, those things are indeed free actions that you can take only on your turn. Speaking is a free action that is specifically described as being able to be taken at any time.

Took me a second - you're just pointing out that speaking is the ONLY free action that can be taken at any time, right? Forgive me. It's late, and I'm slow on the uptake right now...

Unless commanding an animal is considered solely a Handle Animal check, in which case you may not be able to make it when its not your turn. Which logically implys you can't make any skill checks when it's not your turn, including any talking based skills, such as linguistics, diplomacy, or intimidate. (Unless the skill says otherwise, like Perception)

Talking as a free action not on your turn is just that, talking.

My earlier point about about the "Defend" command was about how to work it in the game. As a PC or Player, how do I keep it from attacking a non-enemy who is nearby? Even more so, how can I keep him from attacking the cleric who runs up on my PC after I'm "down"? How does the party healer get past the guard dog to keep my PC from bleeding out?
.
And who decides when the AC determines that something is a threat? That that guy coming up behind you is an assassin and not the bartender bringing you another drink.

I understand how it works in real life, how do we do it in the game?

My earlier point about about the "Defend" command was about how to work it in the game. As a PC or Player, how do I keep it from attacking a non-enemy who is nearby?

It should go without saying that the animal doesn't do this. It has a brain and usually a decent wisdom score. Thats the in game and out of game rational: Its a living creature it can make subjective calls as to what it considers an attack. It determines who's a friend and who isn't the same way the NPC bartender does.

Even more so, how can I keep him from attacking the cleric who runs up on my PC after I'm "down"? How does the party healer get past the guard dog to keep my PC from bleeding out?

Presumably the animal has seen you with this person and realizes that they're a friend, so they're not going to attack them. If you need something more concrete there's always the Serve trick so the animal will listen to the healer.

And who decides when the AC determines that something is a threat? That that guy coming up behind you is an assassin and not the bartender bringing you another drink.

The DM, with the caveat that needlessly taking control of someone's AC to make them disruptive is not cool.

I'm confused, because the guy said there was an error. If your animal companion has a 4+ int for whatever reason, does it get more tricks or not?

I'm confused, because the guy said there was an error. If your animal companion has a 4+ int for whatever reason, does it get more tricks or not?

your animal basically gets 3 tricks per point of INT it has, plus its bonus tricks

sowhereaminow wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Speaking is a free action you can take when it isn't your turn, but you cannot take just any free action when it isn't your turn.

A short list of free actions you cannot take when it's someone else's turn:

- dropping prone
- dropping an item
- raging/stopping rage
- using Quick Draw to draw a weapon so you threaten the guy trying to grapple you

I agree, those things are indeed free actions that you can take only on your turn. Speaking is a free action that is specifically described as being able to be taken at any time.

Took me a second - you're just pointing out that speaking is the ONLY free action that can be taken at any time, right? Forgive me. It's late, and I'm slow on the uptake right now...

Unless commanding an animal is considered solely a Handle Animal check, in which case you may not be able to make it when its not your turn. Which logically implys you can't make any skill checks when it's not your turn, including any talking based skills, such as linguistics, diplomacy, or intimidate. (Unless the skill says otherwise, like Perception)

Talking as a free action not on your turn is just that, talking.

Talking is a free action you can take on others' turns. Handling your animal using the Handle Animal skill is not. That is because it is not merely talking. Furthermore, if it WERE a free action you could take on another players' turn, it would surely be explicitly stated in the animal companion's Link class feature, which is what allows a druid to handle her companion as a free action in the first place.

Just because something is a free action does not mean you can do it whenever you want. Just because the command is "Attack" doesn't mean it is as simple or fast as talking to an ally. Them's the rules.

As for the error I made: When I first wrote this, I was unaware of the PFS FAQ entry which states that animals gain three trick slots for every point of intellect they have. This is not a core rule, although it's a rule I support being in core. When I submitted my correction, I forgot to take out the false part. Animals with higher intelligence do indeed have more space for tricks.

I believe the Blog that informed the FAQ indicated the extra tricks per higher intelligence.

This Blog essentially discussed how animals with higher intelligence are still animals (and don't magically transform into magical beasts because they get a natural bump in Int due to hit dice).

I believe the Blog that informed the FAQ indicated the extra tricks per higher intelligence.

Not in the blog itself, but in the comments to the blog.

sowhereaminow wrote:

sowhereaminow wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Speaking is a free action you can take when it isn't your turn, but you cannot take just any free action when it isn't your turn.

A short list of free actions you cannot take when it's someone else's turn:

- dropping prone
- dropping an item
- raging/stopping rage
- using Quick Draw to draw a weapon so you threaten the guy trying to grapple you

I agree, those things are indeed free actions that you can take only on your turn. Speaking is a free action that is specifically described as being able to be taken at any time.

Took me a second - you're just pointing out that speaking is the ONLY free action that can be taken at any time, right? Forgive me. It's late, and I'm slow on the uptake right now...

Unless commanding an animal is considered solely a Handle Animal check, in which case you may not be able to make it when its not your turn. Which logically implys you can't make any skill checks when it's not your turn, including any talking based skills, such as linguistics, diplomacy, or intimidate. (Unless the skill says otherwise, like Perception)

Talking as a free action not on your turn is just that, talking.

Talking is a free action you can take on others' turns. Handling your animal using the Handle Animal skill is not. That is because it is not merely talking. Furthermore, if it WERE a free action you could take on another players' turn, it would surely be explicitly stated in the animal companion's Link class feature, which is what allows a druid to handle her companion as a free action in the first place.

Just because something is a free action does not mean you can do it whenever you want. Just because the command is "Attack" doesn't mean it is as simple or fast as talking to an ally. Them's the rules.

As for the error I made: When I first wrote this, I was unaware of the PFS FAQ entry which states that animals gain three trick slots for every point of...

Adam, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was confused and working through the rules out loud to come to the same conclusion. No need to be defensive. Sorry for upsetting you.

Andrew Christian wrote:

I believe the Blog that informed the FAQ indicated the extra tricks per higher intelligence.

Not in the blog itself, but in the comments to the blog.

Ah, right.

I'm not upset! Sorry, I'll use more emoticons. :)

I felt we had a misunderstanding, so I was trying to explain the rules in a different way. If I seemed angry, I was actually just going for matter-of-factness.

Mark Moreland wrote:

Using different initiatives means a player with an animal companion needs to think a bit more tactically about when things are going to go into effect between her two characters, but that's as it should be; they're controlling twice as many creatures as everyone else.

Off Topic: I'm trying to get the GMs at my table to use different initiative for all the baddies. Six foes all going together. Also, for a long time, every time I asked, the GM wanted or suggested my AC goes on my initiative, so I've stopped asking. It is more effort to have separate initiatives and keep track of commands and actions. Is it worth it? I'll try next time and see.

I of course roll all enemies with a separate initiative. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all. If I was going to have all the enemies go together, they'd have to delay to the slowest one. Nothing in the history of initiative has frustrated me more than when I was playing under a (very high star) GM who not only rolled all enemies as one turn (not just all of the same type but every enemy was one giant mass with one rolled dice, regardless of init modifier--I think he did use the lowest modifier though) but also would not allow the turn to be broken with delays. So I said "I'm going to delay and come out of delay in between the enemies when I think the party needs my healing most". He said OK at the time, but I wound up having to wait until after every enemy, as coming out of delay in between them would have broken the block. The person I wanted to heal could have died if we weren't lucky. I never delayed in that GM's games again (side note--readying actions was still allowed, and it actually put you before the entire block of baddies, even if your readied action was triggered near the end of the block, so if you see this kind of initiative with a GM some time, remember to ready!).

So I feel your pain. I will never roll batch initiatives against you at my table--even if it's like Lost at Bitter End where there's tons of them.

Anyway, sorry for the derail on the initiatives! Back to the main topic--great blog Adam!

So this is an interesting part of the Blog...

Animals and Their Tricks wrote:

Keep in mind you may still only perform the free action on your turn, so even if your animal wins initiative, it's not going to automatically do what you want before can you order it.

I know a lot of GMs (Including myself) have Companions/Pets/Eidolons go on the PCs initiative. I know there have been attempts on getting a clarification on that without any success. I guess I can count this as and start having all the Companions/Pets/Eidolons roll their own imitative...

Please don't mix eidolons in with the AC rules on acting. Eidolons are not animals and have human level intelligence.

As for separate initiatives: I would be extremely upset if a GM prevented my eidolon from using his improved initiative feat. In fact, I would demand he show me something in RAW saying I was not permitted to use it.

I'm not upset! Sorry, I'll use more emoticons. :)

I felt we had a misunderstanding, so I was trying to explain the rules in a different way. If I seemed angry, I was actually just going for matter-of-factness.

No worries. :-)

I think we were working toward the same conclusion all along, it just took me longer to get there...

Dragnmoon wrote:

So this is an interesting part of the Blog...

Animals and Their Tricks wrote:

Keep in mind you may still only perform the free action on your turn, so even if your animal wins initiative, it's not going to automatically do what you want before can you order it.

I know a lot of GMs (Including myself) have Companions/Pets/Eidolons go on the PCs initiative. I know there have been attempts on getting a clarification on that without any success. I guess I can count this as and start having all the Companions/Pets/Eidolons roll their own imitative...

IF I'm rolling Initiative for my AC, and IF it beats mine, it will automatically Defend itself and me. Remember, the Defend trick does not require 'activation' (being commanded to do so).

So ...
AC beats my Init and delays to my Init
BBEG moves and tries to attack me
AC will take the AOO if presented (not flat footed)

Overall, most GMs just want my AC to go on my Initiative as it's much easier that way. Generally, I'm not rolling Init for my AC unless it's a special case (like we've been surprised).

I see going on the PC's initiative as the default. It is always the GMs or Players option to request more detail. With the same INIT, higher INIT bonus goes first, but usually the animal will wait(delay) for a command (successful or not).

You have to take into account animal behavior and the connection the PC has to the animal. Animal behavior provides what the animal is likely to do, and the tie to the PC shows how far it will go for them.
Trained animals are simply that, the PC is their alpha/mother/pack leader.
Animal companions have a closer tie while they are still animals. The PC is someone they actively help.
A familiar has the closest tie, and is somewhat an extension of the PC. It is a magical creature with boosted INT, AC, & HPs that can use the skills of its master to actively help its master. No Handle Animal is required.

Animals such as dogs understand flanking and pack attacks as this is part of their normal behavior and why humans value them.
Badgers, cats, ferrets and such are single attackers.
Horses (being herbivores) are not naturally aggressive. A horse may kick someone out of combat, it's more about the horse asserting its dominance or driving away an annoyance than attacking an opponent. In combat, the horse is going to defend itself (and thus its rider). It's normal for the horse to attack and then back away to see if the opponent is intimidated/driven away/ or wants some more. Ride skill keeps the horse in close combat.
So you can't use exactly the same flowchart for every animal to map out its responses.

For a Dog/Wolf, the Defend trick IMO means that the animal will try to (in order); intimidate an opponent(drive it away), aid your AC (harry the obvious opponent), or flank & threaten to give flanking bonus.
Once you are hit and blood is drawn, the animal knows this is serious.
After the PC is attacked the animal will(in order); aid your AC, flank & threaten (possibly attacking) to give flanking bonus, take an obvious AoO, or attack the opponent.
Without a successful Attack command, the animal helps you while minimizing obvious risk to itself.

I say obvious as most animals are not that intelligent and don't recognize spellcasters as threats. The animal is not as smart as its master (usually), but then animals usually bluff or intimidate their way out of combat and don't kill for experience or gold.

It's normal for people to treat animals as extensions of their desires and abilities. That doesn't mean that they are.

Stephen, several of the things you mentioned that the Defend trick did are actually tricks in the Archive. The problem with lumping Aid, Flank, etc. in with Defend is that you are marginalizing people who teach their pet Aid and Flank.

Defend is very basic. The animal will attack things that attack its charge. If its a wolf, it will trip after a successful bite, but it's not going to aid another to help your AC, and it will not go out of its way to flank (although it may be easy to step around the enemy to flank it yourself, and the wolf is unlikely to move from a more advantageous position).

Question regarding source ownership. I assume that in order to train the new tricks we must own the Animal Archive book/pdf. Do we have to own the source if we are attempting to push the AC to do a trick from the book that it's not trained in?

I too would like an answer to this.

I don't plan to buy Animal Archive - will the new tricks be added to the PRD? If not is it possible for someone to post the list of new tricks (assuming it Open Game Content) just so that I can know what I can't assume my Druid's dog will do as part of an Attack (e.g. if Charge is now a trick I cannot assume the dog will charge at a foe when instructed to attack).

Also, the rule that says an extra point of Intelligence above 2 allows the animal to learn an extra 3 tricks - that is introduced in Animal Archive correct? If so, am I correct in saying that you cannot use this rule in PFS games unless you bring along Animal Archive? I.e. as I am not buying Animal Archive will my Druid's dog be limited to 6 + Druid Bonus Tricks even if I increase his Intelligence to 3?

Stephen, several of the things you mentioned that the Defend trick did are actually tricks in the Archive. The problem with lumping Aid, Flank, etc. in with Defend is that you are marginalizing people who teach their pet Aid and Flank.

Defend is very basic. The animal will attack things that attack its charge. If its a wolf, it will trip after a successful bite, but it's not going to aid another to help your AC, and it will not go out of its way to flank (although it may be easy to step around the enemy to flank it yourself, and the wolf is unlikely to move from a more advantageous position).

I understand. I was really trying to respond to the trivial INIT issue, and then generalize & correct what I saw as a specific behavior template for all animals.

Training an animal to do a trick means that the animal will perform that behavior on command. It's not guaranteed nor does it marginalize other tricks. It simply means that the animal will have less choice as to its behavior.
Now if the animal does not exhibit the behavior naturally, and you teach it that trick, then yes, saying a badger that flanks as part of the defend trick IS marginalizing those that teach it the trick (game wise) as a badger does not naturally flank.

In game terms, a trick means that the animal will exhibit the specific behavior when the Handle Animal DC is made. Otherwise it seems the animal has a choice between trained(if trained) and untrained behavior.

(typo corrections)

Stephen, if untrained behaviour is ever aid another or flank, who decides that? Typically, a player will want control over their animal companion, and I know several players personally who would insist that their animal's natural instinct when defending is to flank and try to aid another to aid their attacks.

As a GM, do I allow that and screw the player who taught his animal companion Flank and Aid Another at the expense of other tricks, or do I put my foot down and say that Defend covers only what it explicitly calls out?

Since there are tricks for Aid and Flank now, you can't have your animal companion do those things without having those tricks.

Of course that doesn't mean you cannot flank with your companion without the trick. It just doesn't mean the animal will go out of its way to provide the flank. If an animal has two possible squares to move into, and one of them will allow it to flank, I'm pretty sure the animal will pick that avenue of attack.

Stephen, if untrained behaviour is ever aid another or flank, who decides that? Typically, a player will want control over their animal companion, and I know several players personally who would insist that their animal's natural instinct when defending is to flank and try to aid another to aid their attacks.

As a GM, do I allow that and screw the player who taught his animal companion Flank and Aid Another at the expense of other tricks, or do I put my foot down and say that Defend covers only what it explicitly calls out?

Well - read my response more carefully. Making a Handle Animal roll means that the animal will perform what it has been taught (usually a subset of its natural patterns). So tricks constrain behavior to learned patterns on command. It's up to the trainer to be the "smart" one in this case.

What the animal naturally knows is given by nature. That decision has already been assumed in the naming of what it is. It is the GM prerogative to know that information or not. Simple or more complex behavior. BTB or something more akin to reality. It's mostly about style.

Lab_Rat wrote:

Question regarding source ownership. I assume that in order to train the new tricks we must own the Animal Archive book/pdf. Do we have to own the source if we are attempting to push the AC to do a trick from the book that it's not trained in?

I too would like an answer to this.

I don't plan to buy Animal Archive - will the new tricks be added to the PRD? If not is it possible for someone to post the list of new tricks (assuming it Open Game Content) just so that I can know what I can't assume my Druid's dog will do as part of an Attack (e.g. if Charge is now a trick I cannot assume the dog will charge at a foe when instructed to attack).

Also, the rule that says an extra point of Intelligence above 2 allows the animal to learn an extra 3 tricks - that is introduced in Animal Archive correct? If so, am I correct in saying that you cannot use this rule in PFS games unless you bring along Animal Archive? I.e. as I am not buying Animal Archive will my Druid's dog be limited to 6 + Druid Bonus Tricks even if I increase his Intelligence to 3?

Check d20pfsrd.com under Skills - Handle Animal. All OGL trick information has been incorporated into the skill description.

Making a Handle Animal roll means that the animal will perform what it has been taught (usually a subset of its natural patterns). So tricks constrain behavior to learned patterns on command. It's up to the trainer (or master) to be the "smart" one in this case.

Let me clarify (before the chat goes all wonky) that Defend means just that. Not Flank, not Attack, not Withdraw. Defend means what the book says and what makes common sense for that animal.

I am also NOT arguing that Attack includes Flank if you want it, or that people should "blow" their rolls and claim that since Attack didn't make, that flank and attack are the only other option as that is what the trained animal naturally does.

just saying...

Since there are tricks for Aid and Flank now, you can't have your animal companion do those things without having those tricks.

but if you don't have the books they can?

Since there are tricks for Aid and Flank now, you can't have your animal companion do those things without having those tricks

If the AC has a 3+int and the feat outflank he does not need the trick flank as a feat is superior to a trick.

I don't think that going by what animals do by "nature" or instinct is a really good default for animal companions. Clearly they don't run away from humans as most wild animals will do. AC skunks would presumably not spray any human who approached.

When people argue for wolves being able to flank by nature they seem to be selecting only the beneficial instincts while ignoring the troublesome ones. Unless they also hunt down and kill the livestock in every village your party enters, I think we are acknowledging that ACs are a very different beast that look to their master for guidance on what they should do (handle animal) or have been trained to perform certain tasks with autonomy (tricks).

The training system seems like the best way of ensuring that ACs are treated on an even footing.

Except my three toed sloth. He totally knows how to grapple by instinct alone. ;-)

Except my three toed sloth. He totally knows how to grapple by instinct alone. ;-)

Yes, but if recall the rule, he can only grapple treants automatically. :-)

Glen Shackleton wrote:

Except my three toed sloth. He totally knows how to grapple by instinct alone. ;-)

Yes, but if recall the rule, he can only grapple treants automatically. :-)

yes, and normal untrained trees such as the larch, are amused that he cannot auto grapple them or their RAW dryads without updates... *-<8^)

DigitalMage wrote:

If not is it possible for someone to post the list of new tricks (assuming it Open Game Content) just so that I can know what I can't assume my Druid's dog will do as part of an Attack

Check d20pfsrd.com under Skills - Handle Animal. All OGL trick information has been incorporated into the skill description.

Thanks! So Aid Another & Flank, maybe Flee for combat.

I didn't see Charge in there, I thought someone mentioned Charge being a Trick now. If it isn't presumably I can have my dog charge when I command it to attack.

I am not sure how I feel about Sneak being in there - is it assumed that an Animal Companion, even if it has a high Stealth modifier, will just make plenty of noise when moving (i.e. not make a Stealth check)? What about if the animal is trained for the purpose of Hunting, does that now not include it using its Stealth skill when given the Track command and approaching prey?

In terms of Break Out - if an animal companion was tied up and the master succeeded on using the Come trick, can it be assumed the animal will try to chew through the rope etc in order to fulfil that command? Or without the trick is it not considered able to do that? What if it has ranks or even a decent modifier in the Escape Artist skill (my Druid's dog has a +5 due to +3 Dex and the Stealthy Feat).

Overall I am not so worried about my Druid character as he has a +11 Handle Animal (+15 for Animal Companion) at level 5 and so he can Take 10 and push his dog to perform any trick as long as he isn't in combat (and Take 10 isn't allowed). However it would be nice to know for when I GM PFS scenarios.

Another question: Can a sorcerer with the sylvan bloodline have a Totem Guide archetype AC? I ask b/c it gives access to some druid/ranger spells.

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Stephen, if untrained behaviour is ever aid another or flank, who decides that? Typically, a player will want control over their animal companion, and I know several players personally who would insist that their animal's natural instinct when defending is to flank and try to aid another to aid their attacks.

As a GM, do I allow that and screw the player who taught his animal companion Flank and Aid Another at the expense of other tricks, or do I put my foot down and say that Defend covers only what it explicitly calls out?

Well - read my response more carefully. Making a Handle Animal roll means that the animal will perform what it has been taught (usually a subset of its natural patterns). So tricks constrain behavior to learned patterns on command. It's up to the trainer to be the "smart" one in this case.

The PC should decide when a wolf flanks, attacks, defends, but if the roll is NOT made then it's up to the animal (played by the GM). I don't have a problem if you constrain it to simple behavior(attacks what attacks its charge). My objection would be if you said that was THE ONLY way.

What the animal naturally knows is given by nature. That decision has already been assumed in the naming of what it is. It is the GM prerogative to know that information or not. Simple or more complex behavior. BTB or something more akin to reality. It's mostly about style.

Except Stephen, you can't assign anything as simple behavior to a trick known, that is part of another trick not known. In other words, since Flank and Aid are now tricks, you cannot have your animal companion actively go about those actions without pushing them to do so, unless they know those two specific tricks.

Andrew Christian wrote:

Since there are tricks for Aid and Flank now, you can't have your animal companion do those things without having those tricks.

but if you don't have the books they can?

As far as I'm aware, no.

Ok, so let me see if I follow along here.

a) Animals know tricks.
b) Those tricks are limited to the CRB, unless you have another source
c) Tricks that have been codified/introduced in the Archive cannot be subsumed into tricks from the CRB.
d) GMs have to know which tricks are which.

So now e) Can a player w/o animal archive 'push' his animal to flank, since he doesn't own the material for the flank trick?

you can push your animal to do just about anything within GM discretion.

I'd imagine you could push them to flank.

What it is practically going to come down to I worry is an uptick in table variation between DMs who are familiar with the Animal Archive and those who are not.

Which is the last thing that we need, given that the AC rules are already different for PFS and I have seen more table variation already over this than pretty much any other thing.

you can push your animal to do just about anything within GM discretion.

I'd imagine you could push them to flank.

I think the question being asked is one of what is allowed in Pathfinder Society Organised Play.

If a player does not own Animal Archive I assume he cannot have a character of theirs teach an animal companion the Flank Trick (or any other Trick from Animal Archive).

However could a player character push their animal to perform a Trick from the Animal Archive if again they do not own that book? Does it come down to whether the GM is aware of the new Tricks in Animal Archive? In which case is there now an assumption that every PFS GM should read up (possibly via the PFSRD) on new rules such as the new Tricks in Animal Archive?

A similar situation is the Steal Combat Manoeuvre in Advanced Players Guide, if you don't have the book your character can't take the Improved Steal Feat, but could they still attempt the Steal Combat Manoeuvre? What if the GM is not familiar with the APG material either?

I'm seriously considering making this a core assumption in the next Guide update because it affects so many characters and GMs will experience something from this book at nearly every table they GM. At $10.99 print or $7.99 PDF, I don't think it is adding too much stress or burden to GMs to add it. But, I would like feedback before expanding the core assumption.

So, I would like to hear thoughts on whether you think it should be made a Core Assumption or not. Thanks in advance for any input.

Please don't add any more books to the core assumption. The onus? should be on the players, not the GMs.

Onus. Onus.. Honus? Thanks word of the day calendar I read every morning while on the pot.

In my opinion, the thing that needs to be clarified is the "Attack" command. Just saying it does not include flanking is all that the Core Assumption needs. Once we start adding books to the core assumption, we'll "need" APG, or UE, or ... The FAQ can clarify that the "attack" trick makes the animal make a bee-line for the indicated target (not avoiding AOs), and that if you want to flank with your AC you need to set it up some other way.

Would it be possible to have it added to the PRD?

I wouldn't have an issue with it being a Core Assumption, other than it sets precedent. I think we are going to be entering into an odd area in the next few weeks when GMs and Players start to use the rules of the AA in their games. I havent had the chance yet, but certainly will be in the future.

I know that Player Companion lines are not added into the PRD, but if it were to be added to the Core Assumption, what would be the feasibility of adding just the extra tricks section into the PRD (either as their own entry, or expanding the handle animal skill entry). Edit: ninja'd by mergy.

It would be nice not to have to ask a player trying to get his AC to flank using the flank trick if he bought the book...

I'm seriously considering making this a core assumption in the next Guide update because it affects so many characters and GMs will experience something from this book at nearly every table they GM. At $10.99 print or $7.99 PDF, I don't think it is adding too much stress or burden to GMs to add it. But, I would like feedback before expanding the core assumption.

So, I would like to hear thoughts on whether you think it should be made a Core Assumption or not. Thanks in advance for any input.

I think its almost a required add to the core assumption for GMs. Anyone who shows up with an AC will likely at least want to push their animals to do the flank attack and other tricks. While this means I'm going to have to drop a little cash, I don't believe its going to break my wallet.

Stephen Ross wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Since there are tricks for Aid and Flank now, you can't have your animal companion do those things without having those tricks.

but if you don't have the books they can?

As far as I'm aware, no.

Herein lies a bit of a rub, and, if I am not mistaken, the subject of Mike Brock's recent missive that I just saw on Facebook.

If Animal Archive isn't part of the Core Assumption, there are going to be legions of folks out there using their Animals the same way they always have. We shouldn't be forcing our players to buy books just so they can use their Animal Companion, should we? On the other hand, if it is part of the Core Assumption, then it is the GM's duty to have it on hand so he can show the players the error of their old-skool ways.

Of course, this is going to lead to quite a lot of table time being spent convincing grognards like myself that their animal just underwent a bit of a change. Does this mean we need to give folks a little bit of reworking on their AC's tricks so that they can actually do the things we always assumed they could as part of, say, Attack or Defend?

I know I have a WARPIG! that is going to need to pick up a couple of new tricks soon in order to continue operating as usual. If I had known I was going to need all these new tricks, I probably wouldn't have blown all his bonus tricks on Find Truffle and Oink-Like-Mad-at-the-Gnomes-in-the-Party.