More About Paizo Game Space

So excited to finally get a substantial update on Game Space!

I hope I'll be able to use it at my RL table as well by using a beamer and a GM laptop. To do that efficiently it would be awesome if you could display a GM view and a PC view of the maps on one system at the same time (one on screen 1 and one on screen 2 i.e. beamer) so that stuff like secret doors, traps and LoS doesn't get spoiled for my players.

KestlerGunner, you don't "buy Paizo Gamespace", the basic program is free to use. Also, Paizo seems determined to release Gamespace as quickly as possible, meaning that much of the content would not be available immediately, but rather released over time.

If that doesn't work for you, just wait for a while until there's a critical mass of products and by a whole bunch of them, which kind of resembles what you already described you wanted.

Wow. This is super exciting!

Could not agree more - excellent news!

I thought colossal was 6x6 squares

so what size category is that dragon?

- Torger

If I remember correctly the dark background of the dragon token is some kind of darkness or invisibility effect. The actual token is probably just 6x6.

KestlerGunner, you don't "buy Paizo Gamespace", the basic program is free to use. Also, Paizo seems determined to release Gamespace as quickly as possible, meaning that much of the content would not be available immediately, but rather released over time.

If that doesn't work for you, just wait for a while until there's a critical mass of products and by a whole bunch of them, which kind of resembles what you already described you wanted.

But you do buy the images to use in Gamespace, or at least that's the impression I get from this blog post.

Going forward, we'll see if Paizo is a warehouse for digital art sales, or are they going to use their massive art collection as a selling point for a service. From a consumer standpoint, you have to pick one or the other.

The former doesn't appeal to me at all, there are free (and now user-friendly!) alternatives that will provide better, faster image collections without opening your wallet. If they put all of Paizo's art behind Gamespace and focus on providing a paid service of GM prep in the form of module content (and old-new concepts like compleat encounters) and now you've got something that nobody else is going to do better.

Being denied needed art assets during a game is unacceptable for the user experience of a VTT; the value in a paid VTT should almost certainly be in ensuring that the user always has what they need (not least of which because it's all zeros and ones, and you can provide that service).

I remain cautiously optimistic, but if it charges for art and lacks content-driven features, it won't win me away from Roll20.net (and it should, because I love Pathfinder+VTT).

The bit about Flip-Mat and Map Pack PDFs giving free access to those maps in the VTT applies *only* to Flip-Mat and Map Pack PDFs. I've edited the blog to clarify that.

We're not prepared to say anything more specific about adventure content or pawn pricing just yet, but I think it's safe to say that we've demonstrated that current PDF ownership has the potential to affect the cost for related gamespace products.

Stratagemini wrote:

Also, once the gamespace is released will the map PDFs continue to grant gamespace use even for maps bought after gamespace debuts?

Yep.

As someone who has been a subscriber for quite some time and who has quite a bit of content already purchased (including the new pawns) I am really hopeful that you can link the assets I already have to the new VTT.

I really can not avoid thinking that rather than spending effort on doing a Paizo version of MapTool, it would have been best to create a Pathfinder framework to use in MapTool. Token sets, maps and so on would have been for sale anyway, but work would have been less, trouble would have been less, and who is already accustomed with MapTool would have been more appealed, while who is totally new would feel no difference. Also a partnership with those awesome guys of MapTool would have been great, and free advertisement for both.
But whatever.

I really can not avoid thinking that rather than spending effort on doing a Paizo version of MapTool, it would have been best to create a Pathfinder framework to use in MapTool. Token sets, maps and so on would have been for sale anyway, but work would have been less, trouble would have been less, and who is already accustomed with MapTool would have been more appealed, while who is totally new would feel no difference. Also a partnership with those awesome guys of MapTool would have been great, and free advertisement for both.

But whatever.

I dunno, I like the idea of this being browser-based. I always ran into connection issues in MapTool when trying to game with my out-of-state brothers, but I imagine things would be much easier if we all just had to open browser windows. I pretty much quit online Pathfinder, but this might make me start again.

Many people don't care for trying to learn Maptools. Now if Gamespace is as easy to learn as Roll20(browser based), and it can overcome the minor issues that roll20 has that I am all in. The only reason I am not giving roll20 my money is that it doesn't play well with Firefox or Linux.

I really can not avoid thinking that rather than spending effort on doing a Paizo version of MapTool, it would have been best to create a Pathfinder framework to use in MapTool. Token sets, maps and so on would have been for sale anyway, but work would have been less, trouble would have been less, and who is already accustomed with MapTool would have been more appealed, while who is totally new would feel no difference. Also a partnership with those awesome guys of MapTool would have been great, and free advertisement for both.

But whatever.

Not everyone wants to learn MapTools though. If it were more user friendly and or browser based then yeah I'd be right there with you. But it's neither of those things. As GM the only prep I want to deal with in a VTT is prep of my gaming materials not the interface itself.

Having this be browser-based and not require a third-party program also means that you can run GameSpace from any computer... the GM doesn't need to bring a laptop to Bob's house for the game, just note which assets to use and log in on Bob's computer.

It also means Paizo isn't stuck if Maptools goes out of business or stops working as OS's move forward—Paizo can make the changes instead of waiting for someone else to.

Having this be browser-based and not require a third-party program also means that you can run GameSpace from any computer... the GM doesn't need to bring a laptop to Bob's house for the game, just note which assets to use and log in on Bob's computer.

It also means Paizo isn't stuck if Maptools goes out of business or stops working as OS's move forward—Paizo can make the changes instead of waiting for someone else to.

Sean's general point is solid, but some hairs must be split.

MapTool's open source, so it can't "go out of business". The equivalent would be "if development enthusiasm evaporates", and that's a very real problem, so yes, Sean's right.

Also, for a multi-user networked application like a VTT, java and local client applications are simply dreadful. HTML5 is the way forward here, there's no doubt about that.

An official Paizo MapTool offering would never make sense for many reasons (and I adore maptool).

Not everyone wants to learn MapTools though. If it were more user friendly and or browser based then yeah I'd be right there with you. But it's neither of those things. As GM the only prep I want to deal with in a VTT is prep of my gaming materials not the interface itself.

That exists.

But I am still curious to see what Gary et al. cook up. More ideas is a good thing.

I'm not super familier with MapTool, but could Paizo not support something like authoring in map tool, exporting it to an open standard, and then importing into the Paizo VTT.

This speaks back to the notion of the "open character sheet." If a standard for VTT mapping can be made, then you also open the door for 3pp free and 3pp paid content. Perhaps offering said 3pp paid content through Paizo's already existent store allowing for another revenue stream.

I'm not super familier with MapTool, but could Paizo not support something like authoring in map tool, exporting it to an open standard, and then importing into the Paizo VTT.

This speaks back to the notion of the "open character sheet." If a standard for VTT mapping can be made, then you also open the door for 3pp free and 3pp paid content. Perhaps offering said 3pp paid content through Paizo's already existent store allowing for another revenue stream.

That isn't worth the investment, I don't think. As someone who is deeply acquainted with MapTool and HTML5 VTTs, there's not a lot of reason to build any compatibility in.

It's a little like asking MS to build the new X-Box with the ability to play GameCube discs.

Many people don't care for trying to learn Maptools. Now if Gamespace is as easy to learn as Roll20(browser based), and it can overcome the minor issues that roll20 has that I am all in. The only reason I am not giving roll20 my money is that it doesn't play well with Firefox or Linux.

I was really excited for roll20, it just doesn't deliver the way it needs to. Its power is very limited opposed to map tools. Map tools is great because you make something once and you have it for life, and you can attach macros to tokens, have read in spell macros, etc. Its just overall so much more powerful, and whens you have a group that really utilizes it effectively, the ROLL playing goes SO much faster than any other method I've ever used (VTT or real life). This matters less at low levels, but as you get higher and higher in level rolling 16d6 and doing that math really starts to bog the game down.

Now, I'm really excited for this platform. I'm hoping Paizo can deliver the best of both with already made monsters/APs/Scenarios/spells.

I agree that roll20 does a lot less than maptools and other VTT's, but much like Gamespace it is relatively new. I figure in 2 or 3 years roll20 will be a lot better assuming it is still around. Personally I think not making sure it worked with IE and Firefox as well as it does with Chrome out of the box was not a good idea, but I think they will get past it.

Unfortunately, that's going to cause a similar issue as Paizo will have. The longer I am with map tools, the more I have invested in it, and the more programmed resources I have at my disposal. Every time I prep a scenario I add a few monster, NPC's, possibly spells to my database. As this grows, the desire and time ratio to move over gets increasingly difficult.

The more it goes on, the more they need to offer something of EXTREME value to me, and others like me. That is why I've said, I'll pay for resources, but I want pretty much everything. When you have 150+ monsters, over 200+ NPC's, many spells and psionics already programmed into your current VTT, your gonna want a lot to move over. Now, personally, I don't mind paying something reasonable for it, but if they fail to deliver that value its gonna be a hard sale for a lot of people who are already involved with VTT's, which is likely a large portion of their target market.

That is true, but it won't happen overnight. Programming takes time. Even if they delayed the start of Gamespace you would still be adding to maptool or fantasy grounds or some other VTT so the position would be the same.

What I would do if GameSpace is not too difficult to use is to start slowing moving things over. Another idea is to put any new NPC into both VTT's. That will cause the migration, assuming you wish to do so, to be less painful.

This sounds really good, and I'm looking forward to it.

Question: Will all players/GM need to be online at the same time? Or will it be possible to run a play-by-post type of game with it?

Supporting play-by-post is definitely one of the goals, though I'm not sure when we'll get to it.

Ayup, knowing whether this is going to work on tablets would be great...

The current version kind of works on an iPad. We're mostly focused on making it work properly on a desktop first, though.

Now, the technical details like Java and such may be an issue.
I won't enter that territory because I'm not familiar enough with it, although I don't think it's anything unfixable/unupdateable.
About the "out of business" thing, as long as MapTool is open source, what would the difference be with, say, the fall of the chinese industries where Paizo books are printed? The old one dies, the young one takes on.
But for anyone who complains about having to learn MapTool and other things... well, actually it's far less black than you've seen it painted. MapTool does have a web launcher (and consider how much could you need it when the program itself weighs on your HD as much as one or two songs and doesn't even require installation; you download it, unzip, and launch). And, more important, if someone (Paizo, in our hypothetical case) has a framework ready for you, you don't have to learn anything more than with any other VTT you're new to (including, obviously, the one Paizo is building right now); you have commands and things already set up and running. Even better, if you have will to learn, you can customize the framework to apply your homerules or any other variation you need.

The most pragmatic truth behind my words (in a strictly personal perspective, which doesn't invalidate the above) is that when I saw the screenshot I thought: "Isn't that MapTool?" If it was a "pay for it all or get nothing" I could understand it (I'd say it's really mean and short-sighted, but I'd understand it), but as it is, I see it somewhat like "until now you knew round glasses; now behold, we have square ones!" or, in other words, "nothing new (and perhaps something less) in a different fashion".

People have that used maptools have said it had a high learning curve. I have heard it more than once.

I don't get the "you don't have to learn anything more than with any other VTT you're new to" comment because not all VTT's have the same learning curve.

Map tools has a high learning curve to do the advanced stuff. I had my first game put together in about 6 hours (it takes 3-4 for me now, or less if I happen to have the traps/monsters/etc already programmed in). Now, that game was archaic, and it still works (it was first steps, so I've ran it since getting better at map tools). Now, I suck at any kind of programming or anything related, and it took me months to learn to do the cool stuff, but I still had a functioning game in several hours with the learning curve.

I tell you, I am not patient and would have never figured it out if it had a high learning curve, but it doesn't. And once again, no programming experience of any kind.

If this is, and if someone can show if they've stated that it is, being done in Java then I don't have high hopes anymore. I think Evil Lincoln stated that HTML5 is the way to go and that is absolutely correct. I think we'd ALL see Jiggy's issues of gaming with anyone out of state (not to mention out of country as a lot of PbP's are) if this is done in Java.

Gary Teter, can you confirm the development platform?

iPad use old be great! This all sounds fantastic but for me, nothing will replace the real tabletop experience. I love Paizo's physical maps.

That bing said... Their approach to this is why they keep coming up on top of the RPG scene!

Love, love, love Parhfinder nd the Paizo team!

Ayup, knowing whether this is going to work on tablets would be great...

Can´t wait for new information, that said the recent news an post could affect my subscription habits.

If you want simple in Maptool, it is as easy as any other tool out there. The ultra-valuable aspect of Maptool is the amount of options that you can customize if you so desire. The more options you want, the higher the learning curve. If you want the same thing that all of the other simple VTTs are offering, you can have that too. Maptool is the only VTT out there that offers the amount of options it does, and does it for free.

This is the way I see it. What will make GameSpace great is if it becomes a central location for the community. In order to do that, it will have to offer options that are not currently available from all of the other "basic" VTTs out there. Here's hoping!

If you want simple in Maptool, it is as easy as any other tool out there.

Except versioning, port-forwarding, and documentation. Compared to Roll20.net — or indeed probably the future GameSpace — those three hurdles are probably not worth the extra features for 90% of the potential VTT users. Indeed, the list of "missing features" on Roll20 is shrinking almost as fast as they were added to MapTool... and MapTool's stagnated for the past year or so.

Don't mistake me, I love MapTool. But for a multi-user application, installing clients on local machines is a stone age approach.

Elorebaen wrote:

If you want simple in Maptool, it is as easy as any other tool out there.

Except versioning, port-forwarding, and documentation. Compared to Roll20.net — or indeed probably the future GameSpace — those three hurdles are probably not worth the extra features for 90% of the potential VTT users. Indeed, the list of "missing features" on Roll20 is shrinking almost as fast as they were added to MapTool... and MapTool's stagnated for the past year or so.

Don't mistake me, I love MapTool. But for a multi-user application, installing clients on local machines is a stone age approach.

I concur that these things are hurdles, though I think they are nowhere near the value associated with the "extra features." Additionally, I think this discussion would be best served by making a distinction between items of Entry and Gameplay. I would place versioning, port-forwarding, and maybe documentation into the Entry category. You really only deal with Entry items once, and then you have it. Gameplay items are the things you will be using/employing for the lifetime of the product, and because of this I am most interested in this element.

I definitely need to give roll20 a serious try.

Awesomesauce!

I feel compelled to say that Fantasy Grounds offers the most "virtual table" experience of any of the products currently out there, in my opinion. While its mapping abilities are minimal, it does most of what you need, especially if you use Paizo's digital products. There is a vibrant ruleset for both PF and PFS on their web site, and a lot of what you need, especially combat, and even a lot of spells is automated to the degree that makes sense for a game facilitated by a GM.

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

And now we do the dance of joy!

blope wrote:

This sounds really good, and I'm looking forward to it.

Question: Will all players/GM need to be online at the same time? Or will it be possible to run a play-by-post type of game with it?

Supporting play-by-post is definitely one of the goals, though I'm not sure when we'll get to it.

Well I'll be waiting with bated breath for when this happens..it will become so much easier to run things

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

We are more than happy for our customers to use whatever piece of software they would like to while playing Pathfinder. We are producing Paizo Gamespace as an option for a way to play games on the internet. If you like a different VTT better, then we are happy. Pick the one that works the best for you and PLAY. That is what matters.

-Lisa

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

We are more than happy for our customers to use whatever piece of software they would like to while playing Pathfinder. We are producing Paizo Gamespace as an option for a way to play games on the internet. If you like a different VTT better, then we are happy. Pick the one that works the best for you and PLAY. That is what matters.

Even so, as rabid Pathfinder fans, I think many of us are hoping to be seduced away to Paizo's own VTT. You can expect to hear a lot more of this sentiment from me, at least.

Hmmm, that sure seems awesome, but I'm wondering if it can be used for PBP games(combat saved and on hold, even when no one is connected to it) :/

I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but as a PbP player I would almost certainly prefer a simple picture posted to a photo web site over something that loads a bunch of unneeded applications (chat windows, etc.) and that will probably be blocked by my workplace.

Of course, I don't play in your game, so my vote probably doesn't count for much! :-)

Bidmaron wrote:

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

Lisa Stevens wrote:

We are more than happy for our customers to use whatever piece of software they would like to while playing Pathfinder. We are producing Paizo Gamespace as an option for a way to play games on the internet. If you like a different VTT better, then we are happy. Pick the one that works the best for you and PLAY. That is what matters.

Even so, as rabid Pathfinder fans, I think many of us are hoping to be seduced away to Paizo's own VTT. You can expect to hear a lot more of this sentiment from me, at least.

+1! Hoping it is good enough to get some money out of me and making my life so much easier. I want this to be REALLY good, hence why many of us are screaming so loud for what we want!

Forgive me if I missed this, but will I be able to use my own images in Gamespace? For instance, if I hand-draw a map and scan it, can I (easily and for free) use it in Gamespace?

Bidmaron wrote:

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

Lisa Stevens wrote:

We are more than happy for our customers to use whatever piece of software they would like to while playing Pathfinder. We are producing Paizo Gamespace as an option for a way to play games on the internet. If you like a different VTT better, then we are happy. Pick the one that works the best for you and PLAY. That is what matters.

Even so, as rabid Pathfinder fans, I think many of us are hoping to be seduced away to Paizo's own VTT. You can expect to hear a lot more of this sentiment from me, at least.

Oh, we are going to try to make Gamespace compelling, but there are aspects of other VTTs that we probably won't even touch, at least not for a while. If somebody finds those aspects more important than other things that Gamespace does well, I don't mind if they use those VTTs. Everyone has their set of priorities, we are hoping a lot of those line up well with what Gamespace is going to do, but I am pragmatic, so I realize that you can't please all of the people all of the time. If somebody has spent years perfecting a different VTT and is comfortable with it, I don't really want to "steal" them away from that.

-Lisa

Oh, we are going to try to make Gamespace compelling, but there are aspects of other VTTs that we probably won't even touch, at least not for a while. If somebody finds those aspects more important than other things that Gamespace does well, I don't mind if they use those VTTs. Everyone has their set of priorities, we are hoping a lot of those line up well with what Gamespace is going to do, but I am pragmatic, so I realize that you can't please all of the people all of the time. If somebody has spent years perfecting a different VTT and is comfortable with it, I don't really want to "steal" them away from that.

There's definitely room in my schedule for a VTT that puts adventure content front-and-center, and since Paizo makes the best adventure content I think it's clear that it should be GameSpace. If you promote that vision of a VTT, then I can easily see myself switching between GameSpace and Roll20 depending on the game I was running.

Ideally, GameSpace will be the VTT for running Paizo modules, and Roll20 will remain great improvised homebrew games (their integral image web search is awesome). In other words, I hope GameSpace stands out by being the Paizo-est!

Ayup, knowing whether this is going to work on tablets would be great...

Agreed - this would make a fantastic iPad app.

I feel compelled to say that Fantasy Grounds offers the most "virtual table" experience of any of the products currently out there, in my opinion. While its mapping abilities are minimal, it does most of what you need, especially if you use Paizo's digital products. There is a vibrant ruleset for both PF and PFS on their web site, and a lot of what you need, especially combat, and even a lot of spells is automated to the degree that makes sense for a game facilitated by a GM.

Anyway, I guess I look forward to seeing what Paizo comes up with, but, as others have remarked, it would have to be pretty amazing to pull me away from Fantasy Grounds.

Fantasy Grounds is pretty but it also costs a base line of $24 dollars per player + $39 for the GM. While I as a GM dont mind paying for a license to run the game more than a few players that I know are going to go with the lower cost solution (i.e. FREE) for this sort of thing. Free with the OPTION to pay more for more features seems to be the trend these days I think.

My biggest issue with Fantasy Grounds was that there was no native Mac support, but the they seems to have come up with a semi-solution by using Winebottler(?). My players however would be forced to shell out $24 each (and with two of my regular players married to each other with one computer between them? how would that work?). Like I said not a big deal to me personally but my players are going to take one look at Roll20 (no OS issues, new features being added all the time and basically FREE with the option to give money to support it) and go with that instead.

Forgive me if I missed this, but will I be able to use my own images in Gamespace? For instance, if I hand-draw a map and scan it, can I (easily and for free) use it in Gamespace?

Anybody?

User-provided maps are on the todo list for Paizo Game Space, but they're not a launch feature. As I said, we're not waiting until it's "done" to release it. We'll be making incremental improvements along the way.

Can we have a possible ETA on Game space?
whether it be a open beta test or full release?

User-provided maps are on the todo list for Paizo Game Space, but they're not a launch feature. As I said, we're not waiting until it's "done" to release it. We'll be making incremental improvements along the way.

Glad to hear they are on the list. How will you be approaching the "testing" portion of the Gamespace experience? I'm thinking of testing data collection and prioritization? Will it be a testing forum, or a form website? Something else?

Thanks!

Please, please make this compatible for iPad and Android tablet devices.

Elorebaen wrote:

If you want simple in Maptool, it is as easy as any other tool out there.

Except versioning, port-forwarding, and documentation. Compared to Roll20.net — or indeed probably the future GameSpace — those three hurdles are probably not worth the extra features for 90% of the potential VTT users. Indeed, the list of "missing features" on Roll20 is shrinking almost as fast as they were added to MapTool... and MapTool's stagnated for the past year or so.

Don't mistake me, I love MapTool. But for a multi-user application, installing clients on local machines is a stone age approach.

Just to be pedantic, the client/server model is the Stone Age approach, it just happens to work really well for collaborative tools/data sets.