Feat of Magic

In fact it seems like the possibility of having a familiar with more hd than yourself is explicitly permitted. From the srd:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

That quote doesn`t mean what you think, `the familiar`s normal HD total` is referencing it`s HD as it`s normal creature type, NOT pseudo-HD gained because it`s a Familiar, which is what the Character Level-2 of this Feat is in reference to.

Cartigan wrote:

Editing fail.

Yeah... I suppose I`d default to the Area listing, since 30` is kind of the `standard` spells are built around. But even if the description is adjusted to 25`, it STILL doesn`t line up exactly: Because of how diagonal squares are counted, the 10x10 choir cube being counted discretely from the targets´ distance from the choir effectively ignores the first diagonal (if that makes sense).

It's sort of like a 40' emanation - the 10' they occupy + extra 30'

Where does it say that in the rules? All I've found is this:

Quote:

Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.

So by this wording, I would assume a Wizard with Elritch Heritage (Arcane) would be able to stack levels from both classes. I know that's a stupid, cheesy loophole, but where by RAW is it forbidden?

You answered your own question.

What class is granting levels for the wizard's familiar? Wizard. What class is granting class levels for a Eldritch Bloodline Familiar? Oh, can't be wizard, that class is already in the count. You can't count the same class levels twice, nothing in the familiar ability allows you to count the same class twice for a familiar, nor does the feat. Therefore, you can only stack class levels that grant familiar.

That's why I stated above, a muticlass wizard could take this feat and keep his familiar at his Wizard + (all other non familiar class levels - 2) + (All other familiar class levels).

Example, a normal Wizard 4/Witch 4/Fighter 8 would normally have an 8th level familiar (4 wizard and 4 witch, as those are the only classes granting familiar). If he takes Eldritch Bloodline and takes familiar, then his non-familiar class levels gain a familiar to them (it doesn't grant a second familiar, since the rules for familiar's say class level's combine). It doesn't make the wizard class levels count as two class levels either. All it does is let you make your familiar as if you had familiar class levels for all levels minus 2.

So our Wiz 4/Witch 4/Fighter 8 would have a familiar level 16.

It's sort of like a 40' emanation - the 10' they occupy + extra 30'

Not that either... For one, the 10x10 only contributes 5` towards radius,

IMHO, best to keep the IMAGERY of the choir at center of effect but remove the problematic fluff-crunch completely (distance from specific 10x10 cube), and keep the standard Area emanation as sole designator of effect on a crunch/specific squares-affected basis.

The Chort wrote:

Where does it say that in the rules? All I've found is this:

Quote:

Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.

So by this wording, I would assume a Wizard with Elritch Heritage (Arcane) would be able to stack levels from both classes. I know that's a stupid, cheesy loophole, but where by RAW is it forbidden?

You answered your own question.

What class is granting levels for the wizard's familiar? Wizard. What class is granting class levels for a Eldritch Bloodline Familiar? Oh, can't be wizard, that class is already in the count. You can't count the same class levels twice, nothing in the familiar ability allows you to count the same class twice for a familiar, nor does the feat. Therefore, you can only stack class levels that grant familiar.

That's why I stated above, a muticlass wizard could take this feat and keep his familiar at his Wizard + (all other non familiar class levels - 2) + (All other familiar class levels).

Example, a normal Wizard 4/Witch 4/Fighter 8 would normally have an 8th level familiar (4 wizard and 4 witch, as those are the only classes granting familiar). If he takes Eldritch Bloodline and takes familiar, then his non-familiar class levels gain a familiar to them (it doesn't grant a second familiar, since the rules for familiar's say class level's combine). It doesn't make the wizard class levels count as two class levels either. All it does is let you make your familiar as if you had familiar class levels for all levels minus 2.

So our Wiz 4/Witch 4/Fighter 8 would have a familiar level 16.

Except the wording of the feat says "For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer"

Thus the class levels for your familiar would be your wizard level and your sorcerer level. According to the feat your sorcerer level is your character level-2.

Cartigan wrote:

It's sort of like a 40' emanation - the 10' they occupy + extra 30'

Not that either... For one, the 10x10 only contributes 5` towards radius,

Right, I was thinking 10' radius, so it's 35'.

But again the diagonal issue means not all radiuses (e.g. depending how many diagonals they have) will correlative with ANY given `effective radius` you can imagine, whether you `base line` to straight-line radiuses, or to diagonal radiuses.

Diagonals have always been diagonals so I don't know what you are on about.

Except the wording of the feat says "For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer"

Thus the class levels for your familiar would be your wizard level and your sorcerer level. According to the feat your sorcerer level is your character level-2.

Which does not change the rules of a Familiar. Yep, you can count your sorcerer level as your character level - 2. That doesn't say you can stack your sorcerer level twice, it says it's a flat out 'You use this'.

So you still don't get to stack levels, no matter how you want to cheese grate it.

EDIT : In other words, the WIZARD's familiar power says it just adds to levels from other classes if they have familiar, since the feat's ability already includes the wizard levels, they don't add to it again.

I'm not sure I follow your point. The familiar rules say that you stack the levels from all classes which grant a familiar. In the case of a wizard 10 with Eldritch Heritage you have ten levels of wizard granting you a familiar. According to the wording of the feat, you also have 8 levels of sorcerer which grant a familiar via arcane bond. Since these are two different classes which both grant a familiar they should stack, just as a wiz5/sorc5 would have level 10 familiar.

Thus our wizard would have 18 levels in classes that grant familiars and thus would have a familiar that is equivalent of a level 18 wizard without the feat.

I'm not sure I follow your point. The familiar rules say that you stack the levels from all classes which grant a familiar. In the case of a wizard 10 with Eldritch Heritage you have ten levels of wizard granting you a familiar. According to the wording of the feat, you also have 8 levels of sorcerer which grant a familiar via arcane bond. Since these are two different classes which both grant a familiar they should stack, just as a wiz5/sorc5 would have level 10 familiar.

Thus our wizard would have 18 levels in classes that grant familiars and thus would have a familiar that is equivalent of a level 18 wizard without the feat.

If you want to run it that way in your games, that's fine. But you're intentionally misreading the feat, and doing so in the biggest piece of cheese way possible. I'd not only shoot you down if you were in my game, I'd make you accept the feat text to the letter, which is ALL class levels -2, so your wizard 10 would have a familiar as if he were a wizard 8, since that's ALL his class levels -2.

Diagonals have always been diagonals so I don't know what you are on about.

When you are counting `distance from the cube` rather than normal Radius (distance from center intersection), that means you are starting to count diagonals from a different point, so it`s no longer valid to say the (distance from cube + 5) = (radius). What could be 20` from cube does NOT correlate to what is (20 + 5 =) 25` from center intersection: 20` diagonally from cube only counts 1 double-diagonal square to reach that radius, while you would count 2 double-diagonal squares to reach the same point from radius center, meaning the same corner is actually *30`* from the center intersection, *NOT* 25` as the formula would claim). In a straight line that doesn`t matter, and (distance from cube + 5) COULD apply, but that just means that some parts of the perimeter will match that formula, and some parts won`t, i.e. the sphere perimeters won`t line up, either in the `straight line` parts or the `diagonal` parts.

I'm pretty sure I'm not misreading the feat, since it says character level not all class levels. Further it says, for the purposes of this power, thus it only refers to your arcane bond bloodline power not the class feature from the wizard class. This might not be what designers intended but it seems pretty clear, at least to me, that it is in fact what the feat says.

Just as an aside, it doesn't seem like having a familiar like that of a wizard 18 at level 10 is that horrible. The only thing that familiars get via advancement is natural armor, intelligence, and random things like scry on familiar and spell resistance. These are nice and make your familiar more survivable, but it doesn't seem close to being broken when you consider the fact that you've sunk 2 feats and a charisma score of 13 into being able to pull it off.

I don't quite follow the discussion, but here is the Arcane Bloodline ability:

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

RAW, a 10th level wizard, choosing a familiar as his arcane bond, while also choosing a familiar as his Eldritch Heritage (Arcane would have 10 levels of wizard and 8 levels of Sorcerer. ...at least that's how it reads to me.

Once again, I'm not trying to argue that this is RAI, or how you should run it in your games, I'm just saying that I think RAW would lead you to having an 18th level familiar.

EDIT: Only your Sorcerer ability suffers a -2 penalty. Thus a wizard 10 has a 10th level wizard ability and an 8th level sorcerer ability, which stack according to the Arcane Bond ability shown above.

For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer.

I'm pretty sure I'm not misreading the feat, since it says character level not all class levels. Further it says, for the purposes of this power, thus it only refers to your arcane bond bloodline power not the class feature from the wizard class. This might not be what designers intended but it seems pretty clear, at least to me, that it is in fact what the feat says.

Just as an aside, it doesn't seem like having a familiar like that of a wizard 18 at level 10 is that horrible. The only thing that familiars get via advancement is natural armor, intelligence, and random things like scry on familiar and spell resistance. These are nice and make your familiar more survivable, but it doesn't seem close to being broken when you consider the fact that you've sunk 2 feats and a charisma score of 13 into being able to pull it off.

Totally agreed. However, although it isn't an issue of balance, its still something I'm sure Paizo and co. didn't intend and are likely to errata. How do I explain it... it's just not something you want in your game? This kind of cheesy layering of abilities.

Awesome stuff. I like all of it.

Does the eldritch heritage feat also grant you the bloodline arcana?
Technically, it's gained at first level.

I would definitely say no.

I wouldn`t mind GIVING UP some of the 1st Level Bloodline POWERS in exchange for some of the Arcana`s. But no dice.

Ellington wrote:

Awesome stuff. I like all of it.

Does the eldritch heritage feat also grant you the bloodline arcana?
Technically, it's gained at first level.

I would definitely say no.

Those are completely different abilities listed under different sub-sections of the Bloodline.
We already know from Dragon Disciple that `Bloodline Power` IS a specific rules reference, not a general English phrase referring to all abilities gained from a Bloodline.

I wouldn`t mind GIVING UP some of the 1st Level Bloodline POWERS in exchange for some of the Arcana`s. But no dice.

I'd say that it makes more sense to get the Bloodline Arcana, since that seems to be more innate, and always on. But gameplay wise, the 1st level power is probably better.

Eldritch Heritage

You are descended from a long line of sorcerers, and some portion of their power flows in your veins.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Skill Focus with the class skill of bloodline selected for this feat (see below), character level 3rd.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

It explicitly says that the level -2 only applies to that power granted by the chosen bloodline. If you use this feat to gain the Arcane Bloodline and get a familiar then your level -2 only applies to the familiar gained from this feat. If you have a familiar from another class this will not affect that familiar at all.

Alright folks..

We will put out a quick FAQ on the familiar issue soon enough. No need to start arguing about it. The answer btw, is no, this does not let a a 10th level wizard have a familiar as if he were 18th level. You cannot count levels from a class twice toward that purpose, even if a feat grants you additional access.

I want to dig into that concept a bit deeper before its final, but even if it becomes a specific FAQ for this bloodline power alone, that might be ok.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Alright folks..

We will put out a quick FAQ on the familiar issue soon enough. No need to start arguing about it. The answer btw, is no, this does not let a a 10th level wizard have a familiar as if he were 18th level. You cannot count levels from a class twice toward that purpose, even if a feat grants you additional access.

I want to dig into that concept a bit deeper before its final, but even if it becomes a specific FAQ for this bloodline power alone, that might be ok.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks for the clarification, Jason.

While you're still here, does this allow you to get the bloodline arcana of said bloodline? Or only the 3 + charisma modifier per day ability? Or both? Or can you choose?

And should Haunting Choir just be treated as a 30` radius emanation from intersection,
disregarding wierd stuff about distance from cube in the description?

Drejk wrote:

Eldritch heritage... Or how to get a familar without being Wizard, Arcane Sorcerer or Witch?

Sweet, now I can finally make a straight rogue with a monkey familiar to share my sleight of hand ranks... :)

Consider this idea stolen, but with a super-distracting bard. ^_^

Alright folks..

We will put out a quick FAQ on the familiar issue soon enough. No need to start arguing about it. The answer btw, is no, this does not let a a 10th level wizard have a familiar as if he were 18th level. You cannot count levels from a class twice toward that purpose, even if a feat grants you additional access.

I want to dig into that concept a bit deeper before its final, but even if it becomes a specific FAQ for this bloodline power alone, that might be ok.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks, good to know. xP

I suppose we'll get a more detailed explanation later, but I'm curious as to how it would work with multiclassing. Like if you were a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4 and decided to take the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat.

It's now apparent you would not have an 11th level familiar, but would you have a 10th level familiar or an 8th level familiar? ...or something quite different? (Two familiars, 8th level and 3rd? O_o)

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Drejk wrote:

Eldritch heritage... Or how to get a familar without being Wizard, Arcane Sorcerer or Witch?

Sweet, now I can finally make a straight rogue with a monkey familiar to share my sleight of hand ranks... :)

Consider this idea stolen, but with a super-distracting bard. ^_^

No organ grinders!

Thanks, good to know. xP

I suppose we'll get a more detailed explanation later, but I'm curious as to how it would work with multiclassing. Like if you were a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4 and decided to take the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feat.

It's now apparent you would not have an 11th level familiar, but would you have a 10th level familiar or an 8th level familiar? ...or something quite different? (Two familiars, 8th level and 3rd? O_o)

I'm gonna guess you'll end up with an 8th level familiar.

While you're still here, does this allow you to get the bloodline arcana of said bloodline? Or only the 3 + charisma modifier per day ability? Or both? Or can you choose?

I think this one's actually pretty clear.

Eldritch Heritage specifically gives you a "bloodline power", and there's a section in each bloodline called "Bloodline Powers." I'm fairly certain that's the stuff you get.

Bloodline Arcana have their own, separate section under each bloodline with their own bolded heading. They aren't part of the "Bloodline Powers" section. That makes arcana one of the "other bloodline abilities" that Eldritch Heritage specifically says you don't get.

This argumentative discussion is somewhat amusing, considering that so many players on this board have never liked the familiar anyway and consider them to be a waste of space at *any* level.

I like eldritch heritage, can't wait for this book.

Eldritch Heritage. The final death knell for the Sorcerer class. I almost wanna weep for my half-elf Sorcerer now.

Eldritch Heritage. The final death knell for the Sorcerer class. I almost wanna weep for my half-elf Sorcerer now.

Yeah, if you wanna blow a huge pile of feats and still not be able to cast spontaneously, sure :D

Am I missing something about Haunting Choir? It looks terribly weak (relative to other 3rd-level bard group buff/debuffs), which is depressing considering how cool it is.

Yes, as a sorcerer fan it's hard for me to see why anyone would be upset about Eldritch Heritage. It stacks with your real bloodline power, so if you really think the 1st-level powers are that great, why not spend another feat and have two?

(Unless you just aren't allowed to retool your character, and are stuck with Skill Focus in the wrong skill. Which would suck for any half-elf.)

Am I missing something about Haunting Choir? It looks terribly weak (relative to other 3rd-level bard group buff/debuffs), which is depressing considering how cool it is.

It will stack with dirge of doom.

Hydro wrote:

Am I missing something about Haunting Choir? It looks terribly weak (relative to other 3rd-level bard group buff/debuffs), which is depressing considering how cool it is.

It will stack with dirge of doom.

So will crushing despair and slow.

This is very close to a strictly-weaker version of crushing despair. It doesn't affect saves, doesn't affect damage rolls, and has a duration set by concentration (as opposed to one measured in minutes). The trade-off is that you can affect a larger area and can center it away from yourself; this is an advantage, but not an unambiguous one (it's much easier to avoid friendly fire with cones for instance), and the drawbacks are significant.

Despair is hardly the best 3rd-level bard spell, either; it's just the easiest to compare with. For prepared casters, I'm sure I could think up a situation where this spell would be the best option, but as a spontaneous caster you should never learn this.

(unless, again, there's some advantage I'm missing)

(unless, again, there's some advantage I'm missing)

Well it is necromancy so that might help in some ways -- and it is of the pain subschool -- until I have a copy though I can't tell you what that means.

Plus, since it's non-instantaneous, you can use it to control the battlefield.

Snapdragon is pretty cool spell. Sure it's not powerful by any means, but in essence it's like a single magic missile that dazes that I can pop off each round as a move action. If I'm not expecting to move and I'm at a safe distance (the spell range is Long after all ;) ), than why not use my move action for a little extra damage on the side? Either way, I'm always a fan for quirky little spells. :)

Yes, as a sorcerer fan it's hard for me to see why anyone would be upset about Eldritch Heritage. It stacks with your real bloodline power, so if you really think the 1st-level powers are that great, why not spend another feat and have two?

(Unless you just aren't allowed to retool your character, and are stuck with Skill Focus in the wrong skill. Which would suck for any half-elf.)

And of course, going along with this idea, don't forget one of the new sorcerer bloodlines in UM: Crossblooded. Two "heritages" might make sense. ;P

Snapdragon Fireworks is now on my "to get" list for my Desnan sorcerer. :D

Snapdragon is pretty cool spell. Sure it's not powerful by any means, but in essence it's like a single magic missile that dazes that I can pop off each round as a move action. If I'm not expecting to move and I'm at a safe distance (the spell range is Long after all ;) ), than why not use my move action for a little extra damage on the side? Either way, I'm always a fan for quirky little spells. :)

Dazzles, not dazes. Important difference there. I'm sure that was a typo, but just in case not I feel the need to point it out.

That said, dropping some metamagics on this and being able to fire it off every round while still casting some other spells....may lead to some interesting stuff.

Oops, yeah that was a typo, I meant Dazzle.

Daze or dazzle, it's worth it for the visuals alone. :)

I really do like the fireworks spell, but I wish there wasn't a save. Firstly, because it would be a bit better (without needing other feats or abilities to buff it), and secondly because I think it bogs down games when you're constantly rolling saving throws verses trivial effects (in this case, 1-2 damage and a -1 penalty for just a single round).

It's a decent pick for sorcerers, though, or anyone who can boost fire damage. I only feel it could be more powerful because it looks so hard to use well (i.e it's easy to imagine situations where someone casts it then doesn't get to use it much because they're forced to take move actions; it's a GOOD cost/penalty, and forces the player to work creatively around it, but it is still a penalty).

Would you be able to cast snapdragon fireworks one round, then on the next turn cast another one (if prepared, spontaneous etc) controlling the first with a move action then next turn control both with two move actions. I believe the once per round as a move action is to prevent the two move actions for the one spell. For the range and only being a level one spell its pretty decent for higher level characters, especially with no roll to hit just attacking squares.

Would you be able to cast snapdragon fireworks one round, then on the next turn cast another one (if prepared, spontaneous etc) controlling the first with a move action then next turn control both with two move actions. I believe the once per round as a move action is to prevent the two move actions for the one spell. For the range and only being a level one spell its pretty decent for higher level characters, especially with no roll to hit just attacking squares.

It has a duration of one round per level, meaning if you are a 5th level wizard you could fire off five of these before the spell duration runs out, one per round for five rounds, so you do not need to cast the spell every round to use it. But even if you did cast the spell again on the second round, you would still only be able to fire off one per round after that because you only get one move action per round.

It also sounds to me like it is a "fire and forget" type of spell, like magic missile or fireball. Once you pick the target and fire the shot, you are no longer guiding it and it will get there on it's own. It is a pity the spell description does not say how quickly it arrives at it's target, since at higher than minimum level you can fire one off each round that the spell lasts. Say you pick whatever your max range is with the spell, will the initial one get there and explode at the end of the same round it was fired or will it take a couple of rounds to travel that far, in effect giving you several of these streaking all over a battlefield like tracer rounds from a rifle?

While you're still here, does this allow you to get the bloodline arcana of said bloodline? Or only the 3 + charisma modifier per day ability? Or both? Or can you choose?

Bloodline Power refers to just that. Not the bloodline arcana.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

But even if you did cast the spell again on the second round, you would still only be able to fire off one per round after that because you only get one move action per round.

This is not correct -- you can trade your standard action for another move action. So if you have the spell up twice then you could move action attack with one spell and then move action attack with the other spell. This would leave you with a swift action and five foot step.

I'm still waiting to hear if the Robes of Arcane Heritage from APG get rid of the -2 penalty to your effective sorcerer level with Eldritch Heritage. It doesn't say you have to be a sorcerer to wear the robes, only that you receive a +4 bonus to your effective sorcerer level when determining your bloodline powers.

Yo dawg I heard you like familiars so I put a sorcerer in your wizard so yo familiar can scry while you scry on your familiar.

it had to be said.

I'm still waiting to hear if the Robes of Arcane Heritage from APG get rid of the -2 penalty to your effective sorcerer level with Eldritch Heritage. It doesn't say you have to be a sorcerer to wear the robes, only that you receive a +4 bonus to your effective sorcerer level when determining your bloodline powers.

Are there errata or clarifications on that item? Does it let you get abilities above your current level that you haven't gotten yet, or does it allow you to treat the ones you have 4 levels higher.

And on that note, can a Palidin use "Corrupting Touch" on a foe and treat that foe as an evil outsider?

Ashram wrote:

I'm still waiting to hear if the Robes of Arcane Heritage from APG get rid of the -2 penalty to your effective sorcerer level with Eldritch Heritage. It doesn't say you have to be a sorcerer to wear the robes, only that you receive a +4 bonus to your effective sorcerer level when determining your bloodline powers.

Are there errata or clarifications on that item? Does it let you get abilities above your current level that you haven't gotten yet, or does it allow you to treat the ones you have 4 levels higher.

And on that note, can a Palidin use "Corrupting Touch" on a foe and treat that foe as an evil outsider?

It's a monk's robes for the sorcerer.

Any word yet on what is up with Haunting Choir´s AoE in Stat Block vs AoE as described in Description?