I do not mean to douce the elation. I really like seeing Sable Company again but, there is a slight problem with this archetype. Was the intent to also replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight with the Hippogriff? Without a favored terrain both of those higher level abilities stop working. It is like the Horse Lord archetype only it doesn't have anything for those abilities. Maybe not the Horse Lord bonuses, but it needs something.
Currently I don't see a reason to use the archetype over just using the old feat with the Hippogriff companion stats in the blog. The other option I see is to just give the Horse Lord replacements which would really buff that Hippogriff in higher level play. Considering replacing a dead Hippogriff could be difficult if you can't get back to Sable Company, a high level mount buff could be timely.
I like the idea of thematic, setting specific, mount replacements. It would also be interesting to explore this with other classes. Although in a way I almost feel like this steps kind of hard on prestige classes and fluffy feats. This archetype really suggests to me that a character was trained in the Sable Company from apprenticeship up. Which is different from the feat where a character could have joined the Sable Company from the outside. Another good target for this kind of "you start as" archetype would be the Red Mantis assassins.
*Quick Edit*
Mulling things over, in my own games I'd be tempted to keep the feat but allow a Ranger who takes it to replace his Archetype mid-game as a kind of minor rebuild. Obviously giving the Horse Lord bonuses at 12th and 17th levels.
Creative Director
|
I do not mean to douce the elation. I really like seeing Sable Company again but, there is a slight problem with this archetype. Was the intent to also replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight with the Hippogriff? Without a favored terrain both of those higher level abilities stop working. It is like the Horse Lord archetype only it doesn't have anything for those abilities. Maybe not the Horse Lord bonuses, but it needs something.
Having a creature like a hippogriff as a companion is really REALLY good. The fact that you have to give up some good stuff to get it is intentional, because a hippogriff is pretty much better than ANY animal companion.
Is it a worthwhile trade-off to lose favored terrains and the abilities that depend on it to work? That depends on the player—if you never intend to take your ranger up beyond 11th level, it's a moot point, for example.
|
Would this then mean that the Sable Company does not accept higher level characters who already have advanced beyond level 4 and can't go back and change their ability?
I've always felt a Prestige Class best accommodates the skills gained by affiliation with organizations, while archetypes are best used for character concepts.
Regardless I can make this work in my games as a base concept for a PrC.
It'd would be VERY unusual for the Sable Company to accept higher level characters into their ranks. Not only because that'd require some GM leniancy to allow a ranger PC to rebuild a character choice (which, incidentally, is fine with me!), but for the in-world reason of the Sable Company is an organization with a hierarchy. Someone who's already a higher level ranger is, in a way, overqualified. And being more powerful than those of equal newbie rank, there'd be a weird sort of command issue funk. So no... normally, the Sable Company means you join the organization at 1st level and work your way up through the ranks.
Prestige classes are very unlikely to ever appear as part of a Golarion Day post, by the way—they're simply too time-consuming to build and format. This post for today, in fact, probably represents as complex as things will get, rules-wise. And many posts won't have rules content at all.
Oh I like that reasoning! I like that a lot.
And please, do not think I was asking for prestige classes to be art of the column. :)
While I LIKE PrCs I think they should be few and far between and best made by a GM for his unique game and organization and tailoring it from existing PrCs. Okay, for Golarion I can see creating PrCs, but I still think they should be rare.
|
Creative Director
|
As for suggestions, not sure if it'd fit with the theme or not, but how about the riffle scrolls?
We've already taken a stab at riffle scrolls, actually; they appeared in a recent issue of Kobold Quarterly.
There's a really good chance that they'll be making it into an upcoming book in an actual Paizo product also (as in, a 100% chance of appearing in an upcoming book).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
As for suggestions, not sure if it'd fit with the theme or not, but how about the riffle scrolls?We've already taken a stab at riffle scrolls, actually; they appeared in a recent issue of Kobold Quarterly.
There's a really good chance that they'll be making it into an upcoming book in an actual Paizo product also (as in, a 100% chance of appearing in an upcoming book).
Niiice! An upcoming Ultimate book I'm assuming...
I really hope that the Arm of Faith and chastisement make it in there as well, because I am a fan of those two. I am desperately begging my GM to allow me to use them (at the very least least the Arm of Faith) in our Pen & Paper game.
I liked that article in KQ a lot, but seriously... how on Golarion did Radovan manage to ever be Lawful enough to gain levels of Monk??!?? :?
|
As for suggestions, not sure if it'd fit with the theme or not, but how about the riffle scrolls?We've already taken a stab at riffle scrolls, actually; they appeared in a recent issue of Kobold Quarterly.
There's a really good chance that they'll be making it into an upcoming book in an actual Paizo product also (as in, a 100% chance of appearing in an upcoming book).
Quite awesome. I had heard something about KQ, and searched for it on their website, but was unable to locate anything, which is why I asked. However, if they're in something upcoming, I suppose I can easily wait.
A bit more lore for Osirion, WorldWound, Tian Xia, Mana Wastes and Rahadoum would be nice. :)
|
|
Hmmm, I think I'd house rule this to you get your 1st favored terrain (and it increases incrementally every 5 levels thereafter) but no subsequent favored terrains. I'd highly encourage urban for the feel of Korvosa, but allow others as specialists for Korvosa's domains in southern Varisia.
Yes, it's not clear if this requires the ranger to trade off just his first favored terrain, his second favored terrain, all subsequent terrains after gaining the hippogriff, or all terrains.
I can see Urban being a natural choice, for tailing crims through the streets, as well as whatever terrain lies outside the city walls.
Would the Sable Co be equipped with searchlights, so they can emulate today's police choppers? Important carriages could have symbols on their roofs, so they can be tailed from the air? Telepathic spells directing ground units in pursuit?
Hmmm, I think I'd house rule this to you get your 1st favored terrain (and it increases incrementally every 5 levels thereafter) but no subsequent favored terrains. I'd highly encourage urban for the feel of Korvosa, but allow others as specialists for Korvosa's domains in southern Varisia.Yes, it's not clear if this requires the ranger to trade off just his first favored terrain, his second favored terrain, all subsequent terrains after gaining the hippogriff, or all terrains.
It would be all terrains as it replaces the favored terrain ability which allows you to select terrain types at different levels. Although Studpuffin's idea is a good addition to this archetype.
Shouldn't this be a Prestige Class and not archetype. I thought Archetypes were more generic and prestige classes were the specific. So as archetype this should be generic in nature allowing this with no problem with how it works. I just wouldn't keep it only to be a Sable Company Marine thing.
Now a prestige class requiring the ranger archetype for the Sable Company Marines, that could be cool.
I do not mean to douce the elation. I really like seeing Sable Company again but, there is a slight problem with this archetype. Was the intent to also replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight with the Hippogriff? Without a favored terrain both of those higher level abilities stop working. It is like the Horse Lord archetype only it doesn't have anything for those abilities. Maybe not the Horse Lord bonuses, but it needs something.
Having a creature like a hippogriff as a companion is really REALLY good. The fact that you have to give up some good stuff to get it is intentional, because a hippogriff is pretty much better than ANY animal companion.
Is it a worthwhile trade-off to lose favored terrains and the abilities that depend on it to work? That depends on the player—if you never intend to take your ranger up beyond 11th level, it's a moot point, for example.
Hmmm, if the intent is for the character to also give up Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, shouldn't you mention that in the archetype? There are two problems with the way things are now with this and every other Ranger archetype that replaces favored terrain:
-Some players might not realize that they're giving up more abilities than the archetype description tells them. If they knew, they might not have chosen to take the archetype.
-If a new archetype that replaces only Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight comes out then there's no reason for these people to not take it. If the intent for Sable Company Marine is to replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain sight, the fact that this workaround is theoretically possible goes against that intent.
I liked that article in KQ a lot, but seriously... how on Golarion did Radovan manage to ever be Lawful enough to gain levels of Monk??!?? :?
Devils are lawful. Just saying.
|
Creative Director
|
Would the Sable Co be equipped with searchlights, so they can emulate today's police choppers? Important carriages could have symbols on their roofs, so they can be tailed from the air? Telepathic spells directing ground units in pursuit?
Nope.
They're air support, but that's because the sight of hippogriffs flying in the sky is neat, not because it's an attempt to emulate anything modern. I'm not a fan, to be honest, of using magic and stuff to do that. Makes the game feel a bit weird to me.
Sable Company patrols at night rely upon the mount's senses and light coming up from the city, for the most part.
|
Creative Director
|
Shouldn't this be a Prestige Class and not archetype. I thought Archetypes were more generic and prestige classes were the specific. So as archetype this should be generic in nature allowing this with no problem with how it works. I just wouldn't keep it only to be a Sable Company Marine thing.
Now a prestige class requiring the ranger archetype for the Sable Company Marines, that could be cool.
The Skyriders (the version of these guys from my homebrew game) were indeed prestige classes. In the end, I ended up not really liking that approach, since it made it even longer before a person could become a member of the group. Furthermore, "riding hippogriffs" is really all that the group does unusual, and that doesn't spread out over 10 levels of prestige class that well... it spreads kind of thin.
Also, on a more practical level, formatting a prestige class for the blog would be a nightmare. Needless to say more work than I was (or am) prepared to do for a single blog post.
|
Creative Director
|
Hmmm, if the intent is for the character to also give up Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, shouldn't you mention that in the archetype? There are two problems with the way things are now with this and every other Ranger archetype that replaces favored terrain:
-Some players might not realize that they're giving up more abilities than the archetype description tells them. If they knew, they might not have chosen to take the archetype.
-If a new archetype that replaces only Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight comes out then there's no reason for these people to not take it. If the intent for Sable Company Marine is to replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain sight, the fact that this workaround is theoretically possible goes against that intent.
Mentioning that Camo and Hide in Plain Sight go away in the text would make sense from a clarity point.
Honestly, you'll note that all of the archetypes in APG grant several powers, not just one. If I were to develop this into a full-fledged archetype for print (which seems likely, given how much positive response the post has gained already from those waiting to see Sable Company stuff), I'd make it into one that provides Sable Company related boons for favored terrain, camo, hunter's bond, AND Hide in Plain Sight.
I'd even consider having only hunter's bond get replaced and changing favored terrain so that you only ever can choose "urban" as your terrain. This way you still get the later two abilities, but you miss out on the normal ranger's ability to branch out into new terrains. In fact, that might be the best way to go.
Another good target for this kind of "you start as" archetype would be the Red Mantis assassins.
You know, as someone who is fairly anti-Prestige-Class for Pathfinder... I still really like the Red Mantis Assassins as one.
I think you'd have to cut too much of their cool to make them a reasonable Rogue (or whatever) archetype.
Mentioning that Camo and Hide in Plain Sight go away in the text would make sense from a clarity point.
Honestly, you'll note that all of the archetypes in APG grant several powers, not just one. If I were to develop this into a full-fledged archetype for print (which seems likely, given how much positive response the post has gained already from those waiting to see Sable Company stuff), I'd make it into one that provides Sable Company related boons for favored terrain, camo, hunter's bond, AND Hide in Plain Sight.
I'd even consider having only hunter's bond get replaced and changing favored terrain so that you only ever can choose "urban" as your terrain. This way you still get the later two abilities, but you miss out on the normal ranger's ability to branch out into new terrains. In fact, that might be the best way to go.
Both of those solutions sound cool to me :D
Edit: I was just thinking about how HiPS works when you're riding a mount, and I was just realized it would be awesome if the stealth somehow extended onto the mount as well. I mean, the marines stick with their mounts all the time anyway, right?
Otherwise, you'll have weird issues with invisible rangers riding very visible mounts in city terrains. Hide in Plain Sight can be weird sometimes XD
|
Creative Director
|
Another good target for this kind of "you start as" archetype would be the Red Mantis assassins.
You know, as someone who is fairly anti-Prestige-Class for Pathfinder... I still really like the Red Mantis Assassins as one.
I think you'd have to cut too much of their cool to make them a reasonable Rogue (or whatever) archetype.
Agreed.
My take on prestige classes: they need enough going on to keep 10 levels interesting enough that most folks will want to play through all 10 levels. A LARGE number of 3.5 prestige classes (including many I designed!) don't meet this requirement, I feel.
The Red Mantis Assassin, though, has several things going on, between her sabre fighting, her spellcasting, her mantis transformation stuff, her assassin stuff, and her defensive stuff to keep things interesting all the way to the end. Which is why she remains a prestige class in the upcoming "Inner Sea World Guide."
|
Hmmm, if the intent is for the character to also give up Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, shouldn't you mention that in the archetype? There are two problems with the way things are now with this and every other Ranger archetype that replaces favored terrain:
-Some players might not realize that they're giving up more abilities than the archetype description tells them. If they knew, they might not have chosen to take the archetype.
-If a new archetype that replaces only Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight comes out then there's no reason for these people to not take it. If the intent for Sable Company Marine is to replace Camouflage and Hide in Plain sight, the fact that this workaround is theoretically possible goes against that intent.Mentioning that Camo and Hide in Plain Sight go away in the text would make sense from a clarity point.
Honestly, you'll note that all of the archetypes in APG grant several powers, not just one. If I were to develop this into a full-fledged archetype for print (which seems likely, given how much positive response the post has gained already from those waiting to see Sable Company stuff), I'd make it into one that provides Sable Company related boons for favored terrain, camo, hunter's bond, AND Hide in Plain Sight.
I'd even consider having only hunter's bond get replaced and changing favored terrain so that you only ever can choose "urban" as your terrain. This way you still get the later two abilities, but you miss out on the normal ranger's ability to branch out into new terrains. In fact, that might be the best way to go.
If this does see print I'd love to see it in a "Varisia: The BIG Sourcebook".
As for requests:
PIRATES! - Everything Piratey, maybe even extra pirate flavoured archetype for someone from the Shackles or Riddleport YARR!
Dinosaurs - I know they're a favourite topic of yours, but I often have a hard time trying to fit them into the setting so they don't feel shoe-horned.
APG Classes - How they best fit into the setting and maybe setting specific archetypes (like perhaps an Irrisen Ice Witch archetype, or series of feats, or trait).
The Red Mantis Assassin, though, has several things going on, between her sabre fighting, her spellcasting, her mantis transformation stuff, her assassin stuff, and her defensive stuff to keep things interesting all the way to the end. Which is why she remains a prestige class in the upcoming "Inner Sea World Guide."
Woot!
APG Classes - How they best fit into the setting and maybe setting specific archetypes (like perhaps an Irrisen Ice Witch archetype, or series of feats, or trait).
I'd broaden that slightly to "APG content in general" and say, wow, good call. Where, if anywhere, are the chaos totem rage power barbarians, etc?
Just to chime in; I just bought the big CotCT package at your sale and was sold on the Sable Co and their hippogriff-riding rangers right from the start. It is nice to see the ranger's AC list expended (and with such a powerful, iconic one, too!).
Ruyan.
My take on prestige classes: they need enough going on to keep 10 levels interesting enough that most folks will want to play through all 10 levels. A LARGE number of 3.5 prestige classes (including many I designed!) don't meet this requirement, I feel.
That's why I liked shorter prestige classes, too - the 5 and 3 level classes were great, IMO. I always wanted more of those.
|
Creative Director
|
That's why I liked shorter prestige classes, too - the 5 and 3 level classes were great, IMO. I always wanted more of those.
My take on prestige classes: they need enough going on to keep 10 levels interesting enough that most folks will want to play through all 10 levels. A LARGE number of 3.5 prestige classes (including many I designed!) don't meet this requirement, I feel.
I always kind of hated those ones, though. I wanted a prestige class to be, well, PRESTIGIOUS. And a 5 or 3 level class felt anything but. In fact, those smaller classes only encouraged/embraced the concept of "level dipping" prestige classes, which is not something I like at all.
If we have something that would make a good 5 or 3 level prestige class, chances are great that instead we'd make it an archetype.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
That's why I liked shorter prestige classes, too - the 5 and 3 level classes were great, IMO. I always wanted more of those.
My take on prestige classes: they need enough going on to keep 10 levels interesting enough that most folks will want to play through all 10 levels. A LARGE number of 3.5 prestige classes (including many I designed!) don't meet this requirement, I feel.I always kind of hated those ones, though. I wanted a prestige class to be, well, PRESTIGIOUS. And a 5 or 3 level class felt anything but. In fact, those smaller classes only encouraged/embraced the concept of "level dipping" prestige classes, which is not something I like at all.
If we have something that would make a good 5 or 3 level prestige class, chances are great that instead we'd make it an archetype.
I'm not a fan of the 3 level PrCs at all, but I do think that there are a lot of 10 level PrCs out there that could quite easily have been made 5 level ones and still retained the essence of the Class.
I was actually surprised when the Hellknight PrC was made into a 15 level one to be honest. I really think that PrCs should either be 5 or 10 level only, depending on what it's used for.
|
Creative Director
|
I was actually surprised when the Hellknight PrC was made into a 15 level one to be honest. I really think that PrCs should either be 5 or 10 level only, depending on what it's used for.
That was sort of an experiment. We're reprinting/revising the Hellknight prestige class for "Inner Sea World Guide" down to a standard 10 level class.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I was actually surprised when the Hellknight PrC was made into a 15 level one to be honest. I really think that PrCs should either be 5 or 10 level only, depending on what it's used for.That was sort of an experiment. We're reprinting/revising the Hellknight prestige class for "Inner Sea World Guide" down to a standard 10 level class.
Really! That's... actually pretty sweet. :)
The main reason I still like having 5 level PrCs around is that I don't like seeing a 10 level PrC with either dead levels or seemingly random abilities thrown in to fill it out to 10. I do think 10 should be the standard though, but 5 shouldn't be forgotten just only used when necessary.
Would the Sable Co be equipped with searchlights, so they can emulate today's police choppers? Important carriages could have symbols on their roofs, so they can be tailed from the air? Telepathic spells directing ground units in pursuit?Nope.
They're air support, but that's because the sight of hippogriffs flying in the sky is neat, not because it's an attempt to emulate anything modern. I'm not a fan, to be honest, of using magic and stuff to do that. Makes the game feel a bit weird to me.
Sable Company patrols at night rely upon the mount's senses and light coming up from the city, for the most part.
There are probably very few to zero elves & half elves in the Sable Company, but they are the ones that I would put on night patrol.... Low light vision and all.
The half-elf ranger in my current is of the shapechanger archetype. As the GM I deceided that his background is from the Arkonas family, without him knowing what awaits him in the 4th adventure >:D. Anyway, he showed interest in the first adventure, joining the sabel company, and it was the reward if the last session for being a champion of Korvosa. Now, I was wondering how to combine the shapechanger archetype and the sable company marine in one archetype, as the shapechanger takes away all the favored terrains already, as does the marine.
He got currenty into his 4th level.
My ideas:
pay a feat, pay hunters bond, pay 5th level favored enemy.
What do you guys think?
|
I really like this interpretation of the Sable Company, but I too feel this would be better made into a PRC. Something that required an Animal Companion option (such as the Ranger, the Paladin, or the Cavalier) that built off of the core class elements but added Ranger-like abilities (the "same-but-different approach") to give it the Ranger feel you are looking for. As a PRC, it could definitely favor Rangers over other classes, but not be shoe-horned as Ranger only.
YMMV
I really like this interpretation of the Sable Company, but I too feel this would be better made into a PRC. Something that required an Animal Companion option (such as the Ranger, the Paladin, or the Cavalier) that built off of the core class elements but added Ranger-like abilities (the "same-but-different approach") to give it the Ranger feel you are looking for. As a PRC, it could definitely favor Rangers over other classes, but not be shoe-horned as Ranger only.
YMMV
Unfortunately, they were saying that most Sable company members are low level I think they're right to make this an archetype instead. I mean, as it is expecting everyone in an organization to be at least a 4th level ranger is a lot. Upping to 5th level to even have 1 level in the prestige class would make it even crazier.
Though, I'm biased against prestige classes because I hate how they break up a character's power progression, lol.
|
|
I like the idea of an hypogriff for rangers at the cost of some abilities. In light of this new development, with 20/20 hindsight, what are Paizo's thoughts about the dragonne mount idea from the bonus bestiary? I'm still scratching my head as to how that one works... (specifically, references to the leadership feat and 10th level character as prereqs are confusing, imo)
|
Creative Director
|
I like the idea of an hypogriff for rangers at the cost of some abilities. In light of this new development, with 20/20 hindsight, what are Paizo's thoughts about the dragonne mount idea from the bonus bestiary? I'm still scratching my head as to how that one works... (specifically, references to the leadership feat and 10th level character as prereqs are confusing, imo)
It was an experiment that didn't end up working out the way we'd hoped. Which is why you don't see "this monster as a mount" in the hardcover bestiaries, and the cohort stuff is listed at the end in an appendix near the back of the book.
|
|
I like the idea of an hypogriff for rangers at the cost of some abilities. In light of this new development, with 20/20 hindsight, what are Paizo's thoughts about the dragonne mount idea from the bonus bestiary? I'm still scratching my head as to how that one works... (specifically, references to the leadership feat and 10th level character as prereqs are confusing, imo)It was an experiment that didn't end up working out the way we'd hoped. Which is why you don't see "this monster as a mount" in the hardcover bestiaries, and the cohort stuff is listed at the end in an appendix near the back of the book.
What do you think about the Roc then?
|
|
I like the idea of an hypogriff for rangers at the cost of some abilities. In light of this new development, with 20/20 hindsight, what are Paizo's thoughts about the dragonne mount idea from the bonus bestiary? I'm still scratching my head as to how that one works... (specifically, references to the leadership feat and 10th level character as prereqs are confusing, imo)It was an experiment that didn't end up working out the way we'd hoped. Which is why you don't see "this monster as a mount" in the hardcover bestiaries, and the cohort stuff is listed at the end in an appendix near the back of the book.
Thanks James. I don't mind complicated rules (I was a fan of the "creature as a mount" idea), but after the Bestiary came out, I noticed the absence of further Leadership requirements and that the only thing remaining was animal companion entries. I would still allow a player to use a dragonne though, if they so wish: the only question I have is "Does the dragonne fills in for both the animal companion and the cohort? or is the dragonne your animal companion and you still get the cohort from Leadership?"
I'd even consider having only hunter's bond get replaced and changing favored terrain so that you only ever can choose "urban" as your terrain. This way you still get the later two abilities, but you miss out on the normal ranger's ability to branch out into new terrains. In fact, that might be the best way to go.
So, in essence, a Sable Company Marine would be giving up three abilities (2nd, 3rd, and 4th favored terrains) in order to gain the Hypogriff as a mount?
That's a very good deal at lower levels since the Marine would get their enhanced mount a full four (4) levels before they feel the pinch of their 2nd favored terrain loss. It will pinch a bit at the higher levels as they lose the subsequent terrains.
Too bad there is no "Air" Terrain? Or maybe a Sable Marine should be allowed to select Air Elemental Plane as a favored terrain at 18th level? So, they would in effect lose their 2nd and 3rd favored terrains and essentially be force to take Urban and Air Elemental terrains at 4th and 18th levels.
Corollary question: can Rangers take multiple levels in the same favored terrains and have stacking modifiers?
|
Creative Director
|
What do you think about the Roc then?I like the idea of an hypogriff for rangers at the cost of some abilities. In light of this new development, with 20/20 hindsight, what are Paizo's thoughts about the dragonne mount idea from the bonus bestiary? I'm still scratching my head as to how that one works... (specifically, references to the leadership feat and 10th level character as prereqs are confusing, imo)It was an experiment that didn't end up working out the way we'd hoped. Which is why you don't see "this monster as a mount" in the hardcover bestiaries, and the cohort stuff is listed at the end in an appendix near the back of the book.
The roc is, unlike the dragonne, "merely" an animal. Sure, it's bigger than it should be and couldn't really exist, but aside from the ability to fly when it's so big it shouldn't, it doesn't have really much in the way of outrageous powers. And the version of the roc that serves as an animal companion is a lot smaller than the normal roc anyway.
The dragonne, on the other hand, is a magical beast with powers far in excess of what an animal can have. That's a pretty major difference.
|
Creative Director
|
Thanks James. I don't mind complicated rules (I was a fan of the "creature as a mount" idea), but after the Bestiary came out, I noticed the absence of further Leadership requirements and that the only thing remaining was animal companion entries. I would still allow a player to use a dragonne though, if they so wish: the only question I have is "Does the dragonne fills in for both the animal companion and the cohort? or is the dragonne your animal companion and you still get the cohort from Leadership?"
A dragonne can't EVER be an actual animal companion, sicne it's a magical beast, not an animal. Same goes for hippogriff. Hence the archetype for rules allowing it as a companion type creature. You could do something similar for the dragonne... but it'd be even trickier since a dragonne is significantly more powerful than a hippogriff. Not being able to also have an animal companion if you have a dragonne companion would, in my opinion, be just the beginning of class abilities you'd have to lose in order to get a dragonne companion.
It's easiest, I think, to just use the Leadership feat to cover this.
|
|
"Does the dragonne fills in for both the animal companion and the cohort? or is the dragonne your animal companion and you still get the cohort from Leadership?"A dragonne can't EVER be an actual animal companion, sicne it's a magical beast, not an animal. Same goes for hippogriff. Hence the archetype for rules allowing it as a companion type creature. You could do something similar for the dragonne... but it'd be even trickier since a dragonne is significantly more powerful than a hippogriff. Not being able to also have an animal companion if you have a dragonne companion would, in my opinion, be just the beginning of class abilities you'd have to lose in order to get a dragonne companion.
It's easiest, I think, to just use the Leadership feat to cover this.
Thanks James. The bold emphasis (mine, above) from your post is making me go "hmmm" As per the bonus bestiary we have rules for dragonne animal companion (I know they are magical beast but you adjust using the same druid table for animal companion advancement right). Pasted here for ease of reference:
Dragonnes as Mounts
A character with the Leadership feat can take a dragonne
as a mount using the animal companion rules. Such
characters must have an effective druid level of 10th.
A character with a dragonne mount counts as 4 levels
lower when determining the abilities and statistics of the
dragonne (meaning that the character’s effective druid
level is 6th for determining abilities when the dragonne
is first acquired). Taking a dragonne in this way counts as
the character’s cohort.
First question: do you have to be a druid, ranger, pally or cavalier with equivalent druid level of 10 for this PLUS Leadership? or just any 10th character level PC can take this with the leadership feat and adjust the dragonne as if they were a 6th level druid?
Dragonne Companions
Dragonne animal companions progress as follows:
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 40 ft., f ly 30 ft.
(poor); AC +7 natural; Attack bite (2d6), 2 claws (2d4);
Ability Scores Str 19, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 12;
Special Attacks pounce; Special Qualities darkvision 60
ft., low-light vision, scent.
10th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2;
Special Attacks roar.
Looking at the above paragraphs, the 10th level druid acquiring a fresh dragonne animal companion effectively gains that 10th-level advancement right off the bat, and is now the proud owner of a dragonne with with 6 HD (6d10 HP instead of the normal dragonne stats of 9d10) but with STR 21 (instead of the normal dragonne stats of STR 19), as per table 3-8 of the core rules (page 52), because the 10th level druid is effectively 4 levels lower for the purposes of that table.
A level 10 druid with the leadership feat can normally acquire a level 8 PC AND a regular animal companion of 6 HD. This is where the rubber hits the road: was that experiment just to provide alternate leadership options to classes that deal with mounts? It seems to me that a level 10 druid with leadership feat would be better off with a regular animal companion of 6 HD and a personal 8th level cleric or wizard in tow, so could it be that the intent was to provide a dragonne with 6 HD (with link, share spells, evasion and devotion) *instead* of a level 8 PC cohort, and THEN have an animal companion on top of that, as normal? To me this seems plausible, and since you use the leadership feat for the mount, then you can use the animal companion for other purposes (like an eagle for scouting, or other small and tiny animal companions) or just take a domain instead.
|
|
To me, the sentence that is the origin of all my confusion was this:
Dragonnes as Mounts
A character with the Leadership feat can take a dragonne
as a mount using the animal companion rules. Such
characters must have an effective druid level of 10th.
Was the intent this:
Dragonnes as Mounts
A character with the Leadership feat can take a dragonne
as a mount using the animal companion rules. Such
characters must be at least 10th level, and modify the dragonne's statistics as if they had an effective druid level that is 4 levels lower than their total character level. Thus a character that takes the leadership feat at level 15 could acquire a dragonne using the animal companion rules as if they had an effective druid level of 11.
I think the animal companion rules are an excellent, scalable way to improve a "weird" cohort... the alternative is to just slap class levels ontop of your critter, as per the Bestiary monster improvement rules, which is slightly less cool.... sometimes it's fun to just call a dragon a dragon, a magical beast a magical beast, or a construct a construct (as opposed to critter with fighter levels)
|
Creative Director
|
The Bonus Bestiary was written before the rules were 100% finalized, so that paragraph about Dragonne companions is woefully out of date and not to be trusted.
When we update the dragonne, the paragraph will be cut entirely, replaced perhaps with a few lines that say something like:
"A dragonne sometimes serves as a mount for powerful creatures, although such creatures would be well advised to treat their mount well and to be prepared to endure the effects of the creature's roar."
Then, we'd give the dragonne an entry at the back along with the other cohort entries for the Leadership feat; it's level for the purpose of Leadership would probably be 10th or 11th.
The rules for Animal Companion advancement would go away entirely. Those rules simply are not appropriate for any creature that's got above-animal intelligence. The dragonne has an intelligence of 6; it's smart enough to talk or take character levels on its own. The hippogriff, on the other hand, has an INT of 2, and thus treating it in a similar way to an animal makes sense.
Short version: If a creature has an INT of 1 or 2, it MIGHT work as an animal companion. If it has an INT of 3 or higher, it won't work as an animal companion, but it MIGHT work as a cohort.
I'm a bit confused, if rangers get their 1st favored terrain at 3rd level and hunter's bond at 4th level, then do you lose that favored terrain when you get your companion at 4th?Good question... but yeah. You get your hippogriff ability at 4th level. We'll make that more clear if we keep the semi-experimental "Give up 2 class abilities for one that's a bit better than normal" mechanic and graduate it in to print form.
Hmmm, I think I'd house rule this to you get your 1st favored terrain (and it increases incrementally every 5 levels thereafter) but no subsequent favored terrains. I'd highly encourage urban for the feel of Korvosa, but allow others as specialists for Korvosa's domains in southern Varisia.That's also a really cool and elegant solution.
Here's an idea:
Favored Terrain Sky (Ex): At 3rd level, a Sable Company Ranger gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, and Ride checks while flying above the ground. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level and every five levels thereafter. This replaces a rangers Favored Terrain class ability.
This has a lot of flavor to the class and is a very focus, and limited version of the Favored Terrain. Yes, I added Ride and removed Stealth Survival, and the +1 is the increase I intended.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts
|
|
Short version: If a creature has an INT of 1 or 2, it MIGHT work as an animal companion. If it has an INT of 3 or higher, it won't work as an animal companion, but it MIGHT work as a cohort.
Thanks James. Much appreciated. I look forward to seeing more combos such as the Sable Company in future products then! :)
|
|
Hmmm, I think I'd house rule this to you get your 1st favored terrain (and it increases incrementally every 5 levels thereafter) but no subsequent favored terrains. I'd highly encourage urban for the feel of Korvosa, but allow others as specialists for Korvosa's domains in southern Varisia.That's also a really cool and elegant solution.
That, or you just lose the first favored terrain at 3rd level, and you get the first favored terrain at 8th level? nah... forget about it... better to have one fave terrain only so as to allow 4-level ranger dips.... :P (and yeah, "Sky" would be the obvious Fave Terrain to develop here...)