Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #4

Ice Titan wrote:

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

No. For one thing, you make an attack when you use the spell; attacks explicitly require line of sight. For two, you can't hurl anyone off a cliff with enemy hammer because you have to attack a creature or object, and open space is neither.

I attack the other side of the balcony railing with the king. As in, lift up, over, smack him into the wall. What happens after I stop trying to enemy hammer him when he's floating in free space is up to gravity.

Something I see often is that "line of sight" takes into effect the curvature of the planet or distance. I don't think it does, at least, not in the rules, and on a quick skim in the rulebook, there are no explicit rules for horizons or limits on distance a character can see barring darkvision or other special vision limits. If I can draw a line from my square to your square without breaking that line, I can attack you. That's in the rules. There's no mathematical calculation for firing a shot from 10,000 feet away and how many squares down it needs to travel to reach you. On the other hand, there are rules for projectiles slowing down as they travel, which is emulated with Far Shot and easily removed from the game with distance.

The limiting factor on the "long distance" line of thought is that there are no abilities beyond the often-useful "longbow shot" that can go beyond 1,000 feet in the first place and be extremely effective. Enemy hammer is another one.

Quote:

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it and the only way to stop it is to dispel it.

No. You can also break either line of sight or line of effect. In other words, drag him back into the palace off of the balcony.

True. Grappling your friend down is a pretty easy way to end the spell for all intents and purposes. Now, in addition to mandatory Scarabs of Protection, Rings of Freedom of Movement, Necklaces of Adaptation, etc. etc. etc. kings have to pay monks to follow them around in case they start to get enemy hammered from a quarter mile away.

Ice Titan, I could be wrong (and someone else might have already posted what I'm going to) but AFAIK Flesh to Stone can't be 'reversed' with Dispel Magic (you're no longer 'magical' in nature/aura, you are a statue/unliving stone). I think spells like Break Enchantment or Stone to Flesh are what's required to 'cure' you of being a pigeon roost. :P

Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm

Good point. I forgot that dispel magic requires the effect to be ongoing and that flesh to stone is instantaneous... eh, oh well. It's still reversible.

I had never noticed that break enchantment was a 10+ person spell. I wonder if clerics in medusa, basilisk, cockatrice or gorgon-heavy territories have an opt-in on break enchantment on holidays, where you can bring your statue of Uncle Ted down to the church and everyone who gets a relative un-stoned can share part of the cost to have the spell cast.

You are correct, TMW. I just had to puzzle that situation out myself when the local beholder turned the party fighter into a statue last session. Actually, Break Enchantment doesn't work either as Flesh to Stone is 6th level, and the limit is 5th level spells.

True. Damn, ninjaed. I wonder if a medusa's stone gaze is a "lower CL" than Flesh to Stone the spell...

True. Damn, ninjaed. I wonder if a medusa's stone gaze is a "lower CL" than Flesh to Stone the spell...

I just said 'it wasn't an actual 6th level spell being cast, so Break Enchantment works'. :) Wasn't worth quibbling over the rules when my player was characterless.

Yes, Break Enchantment works on medusa's stone gaze, but not on a Flesh to Stone the spell.

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

..attacking a cloud?

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it

Ok, sure, if the king fails his Fort save 12 times and Wizard hits 12 times, the Wizard has done 24d6 damage. Or he could cast Freezing Sphere for 12d6 damage. He does on average half the damage but who cares, or he could just stand Invisible on the roof and summon a Huge Air Elemental into the middle of the crowd.

Meanwhile there is no way to detect you, especially if you have access to a gnome illusionist hanging out in your bag of holding with a bottle of air who can cloak you up as a cloud or a chimney.

Or you could Invisibility anywhere and use any spell you want.

Anyway, to provide another analogy, once upon time there was a cyberpunkish game (sorry, forgot the title), where in a short fluffy introduction, protagonists detected incoming rocket (the rocket was detected in stratosphere). The protagonist, being a properly built cyberpunkish character, was capable of dealing with the threat.

Once upon a time in a different game with different rules and a beneficial situation which would be impossible in D&D...

Kindly note that this spell is hardly a game breaker. It's merely a very efficient way to annoy people at your table.

And that's all it is - annoying

Or, to put it differently, killing important PCs and NPCs got easier (TM).

No it's not.

Who created the artwork featured in this blog entry?

Changing the subject a bit. "Minor Spell Expertise" listed above grants you the ability to cast a 1st level spell twice per day as a spell like ability.
I wonder if it is a once only feat; a feat that can be taken multiple time but on multiple spells; or taken multiple times and the effects stack.(ie: 1st time get spell 2x/day. second time you go up to 4x/day, etc.)

I don't think any of those options are over powered. And hoping for the 3rd version.

Changing the subject a bit. "Minor Spell Expertise" listed above grants you the ability to cast a 1st level spell twice per day as a spell like ability.

I wonder if it is a once only feat; a feat that can be taken multiple time but on multiple spells; or taken multiple times and the effects stack.(ie: 1st time get spell 2x/day. second time you go up to 4x/day, etc.)

I don't think any of those options are over powered. And hoping for the 3rd version.

Only thing I can say, is that I would have liked to see it be usable 3 times per day instead, so it would be nice to use quicken spell-like ability once you hit 10th level (thus effectively as an 11th level character at it's earliest). I know you can still do that, but I feel 3 times per day would have been fair for a feat. A swift shield or protection from evil spell 3 times per day is a nice use for two feats.

ruemere wrote:

Switching to fantasy genre now. Enemy Hammer. The opponent is to be found somewhere within a half of a sphere of 1640' diameter. This is 7.444.362,24 cubes (each being 5'x5'x5') to search through. Oh, and DC for this Perception check is increased by +1 per 10'.

How does the opponent make the DC 164 Perception check to target the spell?

(my apologies if my sarcasm detector failed its check)

You're obliged to make the check only if the target is intentionally hiding. Observing visible target is not a problem (unless the circumstances make the target difficult to observe).
If you have a problem spotting a human sized target over a distance of a 1600', that means you may need to use some equipment (like spyglass).

For me, 1640' is roughly half a kilometer. Now, I have no problems noticing people over such distance.

Regards,
Ruemere

[...]

Quote:

Or, to put it differently, killing important PCs and NPCs got easier (TM).

No it's not.

You know, statements to this effect mean that you concede your lack of arguments.

Regarding "annoying aspect", let me give you a few examples how to enhance the power of the spell effect:
- bridge over lava
- friendly neighborhood sphere of annihilation
- any weight activated trap

Now, as the GM has the power to shape the surroundings... or simply use the most opportune moment to strike, this is where the power range and save type come into play.

So, yes, it's "annoying" as in "yet another annoying potential fatality".

Regards,
Ruemere

Clarifying a few items (Ice Titan already covered most of the answers)...

[...] For one thing, you make an attack when you use the spell; attacks explicitly require line of sight. [...]

As per PRD: You are required to provide line of effect (unobstructed path between caster and target) and ability to see the target. Line of sight would be nice but it is not necessary.

[...]

You can also break either line of sight or line of effect. In other words, drag him back into the palace off of the balcony.
[...]

This time. And so our sniper withdraws to return another time. This is one of the reasons this spell is so dangerous in hands of GM. Also, since all you need to achieve, is a single successful hurling, and the victim does not necessarily realize the danger they are in:

You're contradicting yourself, here, because you've explicitly stated that you do not really think it's too good for PCs using against NPCs, only vice versa:

ruemere wrote:

Again, this is not a problem, if the spell is used by PCs... however, if properly employed against them, it will result in removal of a spellcaster at a range excluding Canonical fighter and rogue from making a difference.

So no, I'm sorry, hold monster is not the appropriate spell to compare it to. Hold person is. And hold person is very nearly as effective and FOUR FULL SPELL LEVELS LOWER.

Could you please accept that Canonical Four refers to class spread in an adventuring party? And an adventuring party does not need to be composed of PCs?

The problem (apologies for reiterating the point) I see is that if the spell is employed against Canonical Four in order to eliminate arcane spellcaster, it is quite difficult for the martial part of the party to intervene due to distance involved (and again: "party" refers to a group of characters, not necessarily controlled by PCs).

Regarding Hold Person vs Enemy Hammer: medium range (character move range, victim is not forcibly moved, base save DC is 12 + modifiers) vs long range (caster beyond move range, victim is forcibly moved, base save is 16 + modifiers).
So, basically, in order for a Hold Person, you need to walk over to the target and whack the victim. And in case of Enemy Hammer, the victim will do the walking for you (metaphorically speaking), and not necessarily in your direction, but toward nearest gaping maw of doom. Oh, and the caster has the added benefit of being removed from target's companions.

However, in order to use Enemy Hammer properly, you need to think like a sniper. Not like a hero, not an excuse for an assassin (Mr-Sneak-From-30'-Range), but like a professional (i.e. let's find a proper place with a good escape route, wait for the opportunity, deal a killing blow and then withdraw before anyone reacts).

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Of course, in most of the cases, carpet bombing king's castle is more expedient - nothing like an avalanche of rocks falling from a height of 2000m to ruin one's bedroom. Still, if one's resources are limited, Enemy Hammer will do better.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

ruemere wrote:

Switching to fantasy genre now. Enemy Hammer. The opponent is to be found somewhere within a half of a sphere of 1640' diameter. This is 7.444.362,24 cubes (each being 5'x5'x5') to search through. Oh, and DC for this Perception check is increased by +1 per 10'.

How does the opponent make the DC 164 Perception check to target the spell?

(my apologies if my sarcasm detector failed its check)

You're obliged to make the check only if the target is intentionally hiding.

... and casting an offensive spell is considered an attack, which immediately un-hides you.

ruemere wrote:

TriOmegaZero wrote:

ruemere wrote:

Switching to fantasy genre now. Enemy Hammer. The opponent is to be found somewhere within a half of a sphere of 1640' diameter. This is 7.444.362,24 cubes (each being 5'x5'x5') to search through. Oh, and DC for this Perception check is increased by +1 per 10'.

How does the opponent make the DC 164 Perception check to target the spell?

(my apologies if my sarcasm detector failed its check)

You're obliged to make the check only if the target is intentionally hiding.

... and casting an offensive spell is considered an attack, which immediately un-hides you.

However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

You were saying...?

Regards,
Ruemere

Also, since all you need to achieve, is a single successful hurling, and the victim does not necessarily realize the danger they are in:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

I think getting hurled across the room into your friend would be considered an "obvious physical effect". The hostile force or tingle is for stuff like Charm Person.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Except the saving throw for this spell does not work the normal way. When you cast Enemy Hammer you take a telekinetic hold on the target. There is no save against this, the save only prevents you from using them as a weapon. So until the spell duration expires or it is dispelled, if it can be, you get to use them as a weapon except on the rounds they succeed at a saving throw.

And while breaking line of sight, or whatever you want to call it, to the target prevents you from making them a weapon, it does not end the spell. You could still move to a new location that restores your line of sight and continue smashing them around.

Now, on another note that I do not think I have seen anyone mention, it seems that this spell only works on living, or active for those not alive in the normal sense, creatures. Does the spell automatically end when the target dies or becomes inanimate?

Who created the artwork featured in this blog entry?

I'm not sure; Sarah, our art director, is at ComicCon, so there wasn't anyone to ask when the blog post went live.

Caedwyr wrote:

Who created the artwork featured in this blog entry?

I'm not sure; Sarah, our art director, is at ComicCon, so there wasn't anyone to ask when the blog post went live.

Thanks for the quick response. If anyone recognizes which artist drew the image(s), I'd love to know.

Zurai wrote:

... and casting an offensive spell is considered an attack, which immediately un-hides you.

However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

You were saying...?

Regards,
Ruemere

You only get a single action in a surprise round. You do not get to cast a spell and then hide.

ruemere wrote:

Zurai wrote:

... and casting an offensive spell is considered an attack, which immediately un-hides you.

However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

You were saying...?

Regards,
Ruemere

You only get a single action in a surprise round. You do not get to cast a spell and then hide.

It's why it's pertinent to have that gnome illusionist in your backpack hiding you as a cloud. You disbelieve the illusion and can see through it, but the people half a mile away have to take a standard action to carefully study the cloud or chimney (or interact with it). A common person won't even know there's a caster out there.

I love the heights of absurdity people will go to just to prove themselves right over a silly spell.

"Well I brought my dinosaur, who eats force field dogs!"

"Well I brought my dinosaur, who eats force field dogs!"

LOL.

+1 for the childhood memories!

It's why it's pertinent to have that gnome illusionist in your backpack hiding you as a cloud. You disbelieve the illusion and can see through it, but the people half a mile away have to take a standard action to carefully study the cloud or chimney (or interact with it). A common person won't even know there's a caster out there.

Exaggerations are fun, aren't they? ;)

Anyway, this spell has nowhere near a half-mile for range. A 20th level wizard tops out at 1200 feet, which is just under a fifth of a mile. An 11th level wizard has a range of 840 feet, or the length of just under 3 US football fields or about 2 1/2 soccer fields using World cup measurements. So seeing an enemy at that range is no big deal, whereas identifying a specific one may require some sort of far-seeing help if there is nothing to make the one you want to grab stand out from a crowd.

Regarding "annoying aspect", let me give you a few examples how to enhance the power of the spell effect:
- bridge over lava

...attacking the steam?

- friendly neighborhood sphere of annihilation

Really? Really? Let's ignore the elephant in the room of a convenient sphere of annihilation. Are you attacking the sphere? I guess you could attack something else on the other side...

- any weight activated trap

...are you attacking the trap?

Now, as the GM has the power to shape the surroundings... or simply use the most opportune moment to strike, this is where the power range and save type come into play.

So, yes, it's "annoying" as in "yet another annoying potential fatality".

You seem to continuously forget that for this spell to do ANYTHING the target has to fail a Fort save, and THEN you have to succeed on an attack roll.

Why not just use "Flesh to Stone" or "Disintegrate" or "Freezing Sphere" if you want to kill some one? And all your examples are way better just using plain Telekinesis.

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

LOL

Best post of the thread. :)

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

+1

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

If you tape up their mouths does that count as a silencer?

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

If you tape up their mouths does that count as a silencer?

Silence is golden, duct tape is silver.

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

This is why all fantasy kingdoms have strict laws against the carrying of concealed Gnomes.

If you tape up their mouths does that count as a silencer?

Now everyone is wearing a papoose on their hip with a gnome in it.

Cartigan wrote:

ruemere wrote:

You're thinking in terms of 10x10 rooms and 10' wide corridors, aren't you?
Again, this spell effectiveness comes into play during sniping attempts (which makes first round irrelevant).

How?

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it and the only way to stop it is to dispel it. Hopefully the king doesn't die, or any of his party guests, for that matter... and hopefully the guy they call in to resurrect him doesn't stand with his back to an open window.

Meanwhile there is no way to detect you, especially if you have access to a gnome illusionist hanging out in your bag of holding with a bottle of air who can cloak you up as a cloud or a chimney.

Not to be a dick, but can't you conjure up an even more outlandish scenario? I'm sure you can throw in extradimensional travel and a Balor if you really try! :p

Ice Titan wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

ruemere wrote:

You're thinking in terms of 10x10 rooms and 10' wide corridors, aren't you?
Again, this spell effectiveness comes into play during sniping attempts (which makes first round irrelevant).

How?

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it and the only way to stop it is to dispel it. Hopefully the king doesn't die, or any of his party guests, for that matter... and hopefully the guy they call in to resurrect him doesn't stand with his back to an open window.

Meanwhile there is no way to detect you, especially if you have access to a gnome illusionist hanging out in your bag of holding with a bottle of air who can cloak you up as a cloud or a chimney.

Not to be a dick, but can't you conjure up an even more outlandish scenario? I'm sure you can throw in extradimensional travel and a Balor if you really try! :p

Of course. What he is going to do is open a gate to one of the nine hells then use Enemy Hammer from 1,640 feet in the air to throw the king into it.

ruemere wrote:

Zurai wrote:

... and casting an offensive spell is considered an attack, which immediately un-hides you.

However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

You were saying...?

Regards,
Ruemere

You only get a single action in a surprise round. You do not get to cast a spell and then hide.

Surprise round: save vs something. Remember, according to spell description, all a caster can do initially, is to simply cast a spell. The hurling becomes an option in later rounds.

Oh, and the victim gets to act during surprise round only if they happen to notice the enemy caster (at pretty epic DC...) . Noticing only the tingling part makes the victim miss surprise round (just like being attacked is too late to notice an attacker in time to prepare for an attack).

Regards,
Ruemere

Ice Titan wrote:

It's why it's pertinent to have that gnome illusionist in your backpack hiding you as a cloud. You disbelieve the illusion and can see through it, but the people half a mile away have to take a standard action to carefully study the cloud or chimney (or interact with it). A common person won't even know there's a caster out there.

Exaggerations are fun, aren't they? ;)

Anyway, this spell has nowhere near a half-mile for range. A 20th level wizard tops out at 1200 feet, which is just under a fifth of a mile. An 11th level wizard has a range of 840 feet, or the length of just under 3 US football fields or about 2 1/2 soccer fields using World cup measurements. So seeing an enemy at that range is no big deal, whereas identifying a specific one may require some sort of far-seeing help if there is nothing to make the one you want to grab stand out from a crowd.

Rod of Metamagic, Enlarge (Normal). Cheap stuff, very useful for making summon spells more effective.

Regards,
Ruemere

ruemere wrote:

Regarding "annoying aspect", let me give you a few examples how to enhance the power of the spell effect:
- bridge over lava

...attacking the steam?

Attack the edge of the bridge. Attack imaginary point in space. Attack an object 200 feet away (spell description says you need to nominate the object and that hurling distance limit is 30 feet, it says nothing about limiting distance to actual target).

Quote:

- friendly neighborhood sphere of annihilation

Really? Really? Let's ignore the elephant in the room of a convenient sphere of annihilation. Are you attacking the sphere? I guess you could attack something else on the other side...

Metaphor. Heartily recommended.

Quote:

- any weight activated trap

...are you attacking the trap?

Area triggering a trap. A trigger is an object, right?

Quote:

Now, as the GM has the power to shape the surroundings... or simply use the most opportune moment to strike, this is where the power range and save type come into play.

So, yes, it's "annoying" as in "yet another annoying potential fatality".

You seem to continuously forget that for this spell to do ANYTHING the target has to fail a Fort save, and THEN you have to succeed on an attack roll.

Why not just use "Flesh to Stone" or "Disintegrate" or "Freezing Sphere" if you want to kill some one? And all your examples are way better just using plain Telekinesis.

Targeting Fortitude save has advantages when dealing with casters.

Regards,
Ruemere

This one looks like it's going to run and run..better get the Colossal size popcorn pack

Attack the edge of the bridge.

You fall prone on the bridge. And this is a crappy bridge without any rails. What lunatic made this thing?

Attack imaginary point in space.

Can't do that.

Attack an object 200 feet away (spell description says you need to nominate the object and that hurling distance limit is 30 feet, it says nothing about limiting distance to actual target).

Gibberish. And wrong. It says you have to target something within 30 feet. Explicitly.

Metaphor. Heartily recommended.

1) Does that have something to do with what you said?

Area triggering a trap. A trigger is an object, right?

Not unless it is.

Targeting Fortitude save has advantages when dealing with casters.

A smart caster would actually have a better Fort save than Will save. Dumping Con is pretty dumb. Well not any more with the idiotic changes to Concentration. But what are they going to pump Wisdom for? And what about Reflex? A caster with bad Constitution? You could just kill them outright with Freezing Sphere because they won't make their Reflex save.

And all the spells you've mentioned operate at unsafe distance.

Freezing Sphere: Long; Telekinesis; Long, Flesh to Stone: Medium; Disintegrate: Medium.

And I know at least one Wizard who can safely eat up damage from Disintegrate spell.

Then you know one Wizard who will succeed handily at Fort saves.

magnuskn wrote:

Ice Titan wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

ruemere wrote:

You're thinking in terms of 10x10 rooms and 10' wide corridors, aren't you?
Again, this spell effectiveness comes into play during sniping attempts (which makes first round irrelevant).

How?

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it and the only way to stop it is to dispel it. Hopefully the king doesn't die, or any of his party guests, for that matter... and hopefully the guy they call in to resurrect him doesn't stand with his back to an open window.

Meanwhile there is no way to detect you, especially if you have access to a gnome illusionist hanging out in your bag of holding with a bottle of air who can cloak you up as a cloud or a chimney.

Not to be a dick, but can't you conjure up an even more outlandish scenario? I'm sure you can throw in extradimensional travel and a Balor if you really try! :p

Of course. What he is going to do is open a gate to one of the nine hells then use Enemy Hammer from 1,640 feet in the air to throw the king into it.

Where the king lands before a Balor which has been imprisoned in one of the nine hells? :p

Where the king lands before a Balor which has been imprisoned in one of the nine hells? :p

We need sharks with laser beams strapped to their foreheads in this scenario somehow.

magnuskn wrote:

Where the king lands before a Balor which has been imprisoned in one of the nine hells? :p

We need sharks with laser beams strapped to their foreheads in this scenario somehow.

That's what is in the nine hells. Devil fish with lasers strapped to their heads

Jeremiziah wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Where the king lands before a Balor which has been imprisoned in one of the nine hells? :p

We need sharks with laser beams strapped to their foreheads in this scenario somehow.

That's what is in the nine hells. Devil fish with lasers strapped to their heads

What are you talking about? We need Giant Robotic Cu-pie Dolls that shoot lasers from their eyes.

Cartigan wrote:

Jeremiziah wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Where the king lands before a Balor which has been imprisoned in one of the nine hells? :p

We need sharks with laser beams strapped to their foreheads in this scenario somehow.

That's what is in the nine hells. Devil fish with lasers strapped to their heads

What are you talking about? We need Giant Robotic Cu-pie Dolls that shoot lasers from their eyes.

They can ride the devil fish, those suckers get huge.

magnuskn wrote:

Ice Titan wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

ruemere wrote:

You're thinking in terms of 10x10 rooms and 10' wide corridors, aren't you?
Again, this spell effectiveness comes into play during sniping attempts (which makes first round irrelevant).

How?

Wizard flying 1,640 feet above his target. Technically does not need line of sight but line of effect. So, he casts this spell and jerks the wizard off a cliff.

Wizard flying 1,640 feet across a city. King walks on the balcony. Grab the king, slam him into his friends for 12 rounds, nobody knows who did it and the only way to stop it is to dispel it. Hopefully the king doesn't die, or any of his party guests, for that matter... and hopefully the guy they call in to resurrect him doesn't stand with his back to an open window.

Meanwhile there is no way to detect you, especially if you have access to a gnome illusionist hanging out in your bag of holding with a bottle of air who can cloak you up as a cloud or a chimney.

Not to be a dick, but can't you conjure up an even more outlandish scenario? I'm sure you can throw in extradimensional travel and a Balor if you really try! :p

Of course. What he is going to do is open a gate to one of the nine hells then use Enemy Hammer from 1,640 feet in the air to throw the king into it.

Actually not a bad idea.

Ooh! Drop a portable hole, enemy hammer someone into it, pick up the portable hole. :) Thanks for another great idea.

ruemere wrote:

Attack the edge of the bridge.

You fall prone on the bridge. And this is a crappy bridge without any rails. What lunatic made this thing?

J. R. R. Tolkien called. He says he took offense at your critique of his design of bridge in Moria.

Quote:

Attack imaginary point in space.

Can't do that.

Ok. Attack non-imaginary object (point in space) and intentionally miss.

Oh, and please, do not tell me I cannot intentionally miss. If you really insist, I will declare my character doing small and discreet Irish Jig in order to make that miss.

Quote:

Attack an object 200 feet away (spell description says you need to nominate the object and that hurling distance limit is 30 feet, it says nothing about limiting distance to actual target).

Gibberish. And wrong. It says you have to target something within 30 feet. Explicitly.

Cool. Pick an imaginary object within 30', pick closest non-imaginary object within 30' to that imaginary object, intentionally miss so that the hurled victim veers from non-imaginary target toward imaginary target.

Oh, and in case you say I cannot miss intentionally in the direction of my choice, allow me a small Irish Jig practice, so that I find out how to miss properly.

Quote:

Metaphor. Heartily recommended.

1) Does that have something to do with what you said?

2) Red herring.

Metaphor is a metaphor. If you have an issue with me using one, I propose a fall back on a common definition, so that both sides may benefit from similar reference system.

Quote:

Area triggering a trap. A trigger is an object, right?

Not unless it is.

Heheheh. Ok, I pick an imaginary object, choose it as my target and then proceed with Irish Jig and non-imaginary object in order to produce desired effect.

Quote:

Targeting Fortitude save has advantages when dealing with casters.

A smart caster would actually have a better Fort save than Will save. Dumping Con is pretty dumb. Well not any more with the idiotic changes to Concentration. But what are they going to pump Wisdom for? And what about Reflex? A caster with bad Constitution? You could just kill them outright with Freezing Sphere because they won't make their Reflex save.

Agreed. Still, one cannot be good at everything.

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And all the spells you've mentioned operate at unsafe distance.

Freezing Sphere: Long; Telekinesis; Long, Flesh to Stone: Medium; Disintegrate: Medium.

Medium is too short. Freezing Sphere - 52 points of damage... at this level? Pleaaaase.

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And I know at least one Wizard who can safely eat up damage from Disintegrate spell.

Then you know one Wizard who will succeed handily at Fort saves.

I was talking about pure damage, though of course, his Fortitude save is nothing to be sneezed at.

Regards,
Ruemere

I for one, would find it terribly amusing to watch a GM rule "Yes, you can chose a point in space as an object, but because it is a point and therefor has no mass and no volume, he does not take damage and falls in the five foot square of his choosing around the object to boot."

Because it does specify you choose an OBJECT or CREATURE to hurl the opponent against, and those are your only two options. You're not so much taking a telekinetic force and hurling them as you are creating a zone of attraction between the two targets of the spell and letting un-nature takes it's course.

Ok. Attack non-imaginary object (point in space) and intentionally miss.

Oh, and please, do not tell me I cannot intentionally miss. If you really insist, I will declare my character doing small and discreet Irish Jig in order to make that miss.

Of course you can't because you can't target an imaginary point in space.

Of course you can't because you can't target an imaginary point in space.

I SUNDER the air.

You what?

I SUNDER the air.

Okay, the air is SUNDERed. Now what.

Did I get any exp for that?

I Magic Missile the Darkness.....

And then I fireball the Gazebo,

I Magic Missile the Darkness.....

And then I fireball the Gazebo,

I know I've read about this somewhere, but don't remember anymore. But it is hilarious!!!

DM:"But it's just a Gazebo...!?"

Dead Alewives Dungeon and Dragons sketch where the first quote came from.
http://www.rpgmp3.com/downloads/data/av-deadalewives-dnd-part-1-stream.mp3

Eric and the Gazebo
http://www.dndadventure.com/html/articles/gaming_stories.html