It is as I feared. After reading the preview, my summoner player is going to be switching out his character for a different one. He feels that the new change doesn't fit with the type of summoner he wants to play.No. This change is a power boost. A quadruped eidolon no longer has to fear ** spoiler omitted **
Since he doesn't have to stick around on the plane all the time now, while "boss" is in town, he can pop out to home. He has more freedom to be his true self instead of ** spoiler omitted **Nah, those were never issues with him. His eidolon has an insane climb skill due to the climb evolution. And he actually enjoys the roleplaying aspect of bringing a monster into town.
As far as he's concerned, the summoner is now all but useless for him. He liked the ability to control the battlefield; with the new change, his eidolon mount will vanish whenever he wants to use his summon monster for something in combat (flanking, etc).
At first I hate the new rules, but I changed my mind after digesting the information.
He can still use his eidolon and summon monster if he use his spells.And one of the really weak spots have now been fixed, Banishment effects.
Spells like Dismissal, Banishment, Blasphemy, etc. would have really made the summoner useless. Now it's no longer a big problem since the summenr can summun his eidolon at will.
As a side note, what do you all think about taking augment summons?
I have it in my pre-APG game. It's... sorta worth it. It means my pet can take a hit or two before pasting. (Not that it helped that poor lantern archon, /mourn) After the book, it's highly unlikely that I'll be using the SLA much if at all, so I will probably trade the feats for crossbow stuff. (after buffing Big E I don't have much else to do in combat)
If the feat applied to Big E, then it's must have, but I think the problem was E being -too- powerful. At least with Pounce and Large and Reach etc. I can't imagine they would cripple the SLA and then make E even better.
What would be neat is a healing spell that only works on the Eidolon. I like that a lot better than the dismiss/resummon for full HP trick. ("When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned" not the last time it was dismissed)
yeah grick, i really think that the dismiss/resummon trick shouldnt work. i mean i get that its worded that way but i am pretty damn sure that that isnt the purpose of the ability.
seriously if someone tried to argue that at the table it would equate to a minute of bickering before the dm had to use the dad voice and put his foot down.
and also the summoner is still a bruiser class. anyway let me put it like this, a lot of people are saying that the ability is pointless now, but if we didnt have it then a summoner would be completely boned when our eidolons died. really after thinking about it for awhile i feel that this change to summoners is for the best, not only because of balance but also just because i know how much a summoner at the table can slow down combat. during my turn i have to control my summoner, eidolon, and any summons i had out, which could really slow down the momentum of combat and also could be a bit of a headache for myself.
On a side note, why would you choose an elf to illustrate the alchemist class ? When you speak of alchemist I picture the races in this order: Gnome, Dwarf, Human, Halfling, Demi-Elf, Elf, Half-Orc.
Well, what race is at the bottom when you consider iconicness of rangers. Now look up the race of the iconic ranger. I'll wait.
Hint: Just look at your picture.... Not all the iconics are stereotypes that have been done a hundred killion times. Every now and then, they throw you a curve-ball.
Beyond that, I say why not? Elves are sensual, and alchemy is definitely a sensual thing. Plus, if you're a smart-Alec who mixes up stuff and then throws it at people, a boost in intelligence and dexterity will come in handy.
I wouldn't go so low as to play an elf
Considering that dwarves turn matters of high and low on the head (having a low king and so on), that sounds like hi.. I mean low praise!
Well, what race is at the bottom when you consider iconicness of rangers.
On a side note, why would you choose an elf to illustrate the alchemist class ? When you speak of alchemist I picture the races in this order: Gnome, Dwarf, Human, Halfling, Demi-Elf, Elf, Half-Orc.
Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings?
At least tell me that alchemist is among the favorite classes of the Dwarves.
No, they're not. Dwarves are too small to reach the vials on the higher shelf, and cannot work on an alchemist's working table. And, unlike halflings or gnomes, no stepstool will hold their weight.
Meh the witch still suffers from the vulnerable familiar problem..I'll stick with the 4Winds version thank youPerhaps... then again, all PCs who invest in familiars risk losing them. It could be argued that it hurts the witch most, though. Still, I love the flavour of your familiar teaching you magic. :)
Yeah, it's great, and it fits the classical image of the witch like a glove!
Since there was a mention of a new oracle mystery but no mention of any new cavalier order, should we assume that there are no new cavalier orders beyond what was in the playtest?
There is no mention about them, but there order be.
It is as I feared. After reading the preview, my summoner player is going to be switching out his character for a different one. He feels that the new change doesn't fit with the type of summoner he wants to play.
Just house-rule it back.
The "damn, what are we going to do with this hentacle aberration of yours while downtown ?"
Make him chase Tien schoolgirls and laugh your donkey off?
yeah grick, i really think that the dismiss/resummon trick shouldnt work. i mean i get that its worded that way but i am pretty damn sure that that isnt the purpose of the ability.
If I was in charge and someone wanted to do it that way, I'd say sure. So the first time you summoned him at level 1 he had 12 HP (or whatever). So at level 2, he pops in with 12 HP. And so on, until he dies, in which case he gets summoned with half his total HP. And again and again!
anyway let me put it like this, a lot of people are saying that the ability is pointless now, but if we didnt have it then a summoner would be completely boned when our eidolons died.
I think the difference is before, you would use E and SLA, and only use the SM spells in an emergency. Now, you use E and the spells, and only SLA in an emergency. Slow combat is a drag, though, and I don't want the other players getting bored.
I hope the serpent eidolon gets another evolution point for it's base form. (bite+limbs+limbs=5, claws+limbs+limbs=5, bite+climb+tail+tailslap=4)
It is as I feared. After reading the preview, my summoner player is going to be switching out his character for a different one. He feels that the new change doesn't fit with the type of summoner he wants to play.No. This change is a power boost. A quadruped eidolon no longer has to fear ** spoiler omitted **
Since he doesn't have to stick around on the plane all the time now, while "boss" is in town, he can pop out to home. He has more freedom to be his true self instead of ** spoiler omitted **Nah, those were never issues with him. His eidolon has an insane climb skill due to the climb evolution. And he actually enjoys the roleplaying aspect of bringing a monster into town.
As far as he's concerned, the summoner is now all but useless for him. He liked the ability to control the battlefield; with the new change, his eidolon mount will vanish whenever he wants to use his summon monster for something in combat (flanking, etc).
At first I hate the new rules, but I changed my mind after digesting the information.
He can still use his eidolon and summon monster if he use his spells.And one of the really weak spots have now been fixed, Banishment effects.
Spells like Dismissal, Banishment, Blasphemy, etc. would have really made the summoner useless. Now it's no longer a big problem since the summenr can summun his eidolon at will.
Well, what race is at the bottom when you consider iconicness of rangers. Now look up the race of the iconic ranger. I'll wait.Hint: Just look at your picture.... Not all the iconics are stereotypes that have been done a hundred killion times. Every now and then, they throw you a curve-ball.
Actually the ranger never rang a bell in my mind, sure if you take LoTR you have Humans, and Elves and demielves. But for translations reasons I never associated the word ranger and the concept of ranger..
So, for me, the ranger is not associated with any archetype or stereotype.
Beyond that, I say why not? Elves are sensual, and alchemy is definitely a sensual thing. Plus, if you're a smart-Alec who mixes up stuff and then throws it at people, a boost in intelligence and dexterity will come in handy.
Alchemy being (in my mind at least) a coarser form of chemistry it doesn't struck me as more sensual than anything.
And yes, if your willing to go to the snooty side of the force to gain more power, elves will do just that.Back on topic, I wonder how many more discoveries they added, because 2 or 3 is a matter of swapping one discovery with another, but 15 foe example would imply a possibility of deeper specialization, as Ogre said.
Enhanced Curves (Su)
Fixed that for you. ;)
It is as I feared. After reading the preview, my summoner player is going to be switching out his character for a different one. He feels that the new change doesn't fit with the type of summoner he wants to play.No. This change is a power boost. A quadruped eidolon no longer has to fear ** spoiler omitted **
Since he doesn't have to stick around on the plane all the time now, while "boss" is in town, he can pop out to home. He has more freedom to be his true self instead of ** spoiler omitted **
Why couldnt you just dismiss him and use SLA's in town? That seems to be what the developers want. Swapping out Big E for SLA when situationally it makes since. I hope they got some other power boost for this. Really I would like to see a verant one with the option to give up the SLA's for other abilities. Like they gave clerics the option to give up domains for best BAB and d10 HD
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Alchemy being (in my mind at least) a coarser form of chemistry it doesn't struck me as more sensual than anything.
And yes, if your willing to go to the snooty side of the force to gain more power, elves will do just that.
Back on topic, I wonder how many more discoveries they added, because 2 or 3 is a matter of swapping one discovery with another, but 15 foe example would imply a possibility of deeper specialization, as Ogre said.
You already need to specialize, I like it. It's a class with tough decisions in a good way.
As far as racial selection goes, I agree with you on gnomes and humans and I also agree elf alchemists are a bit strange, but dwarves. Dwarves are probably about the worst match for alchemists from the way I see it. The whole mad scientist feel the class has just doesn't sit well with the whole dwarven outlook on life in my eyes.
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I play a Summoner in our home campaign.
I'm itching for the APG to come out, so I can summon my Bandersnatch Eidolon (love the new Alice in Wonderland movie :P) multiple times a day. I, personally, only use the SLA for backup and utility purposes. I'm fine with the new changes.
I've mentioned this in another thread, but....
That said, I really wish they gave Summoners more of a choice: concentrate on the Summon Monsters or on the Eidolon. Still have the other, but not as powerful. This way, both Summoner-types would be happy AND their power would be cut just a bit.
SLA Summoners could have free Augment Summoning, apply Metamagic feats to the SLA (maybe costing an additional use/day for each normal level increase?), have two maximum out of the field, have one "permanent" Summoned Monster at any given time (like conjurer Wizards ability), or so-on. Meanwhile, their Eidolons could be treated as two or three levels lower.
Eidolon Summoners could have additional EP, be able to apply Augment Summoning to the Eidolon, have additional uses of the Maker's Call ability (which is near useless at, what, once per day?), maybe standard action to Reduce him if Large or Huge, or a more-expanded list of evolutions. Meanwhile, their SLA could be just Cha mod times per day instead of 3+Cha mod.
Dear Paizo, I'd really like to see this *sad puppy dog face*
As far as racial selection goes, I agree with you on gnomes and humans and I also agree elf alchemists are a bit strange, but dwarves. Dwarves are probably about the worst match for alchemists from the way I see it. The whole mad scientist feel the class has just doesn't sit well with the whole dwarven outlook on life in my eyes.
Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.
As far as racial selection goes, I agree with you on gnomes and humans and I also agree elf alchemists are a bit strange, but dwarves. Dwarves are probably about the worst match for alchemists from the way I see it. The whole mad scientist feel the class has just doesn't sit well with the whole dwarven outlook on life in my eyes.Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.
Win.
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As far as racial selection goes, I agree with you on gnomes and humans and I also agree elf alchemists are a bit strange, but dwarves. Dwarves are probably about the worst match for alchemists from the way I see it. The whole mad scientist feel the class has just doesn't sit well with the whole dwarven outlook on life in my eyes.Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.
Hahaha... I love it. I think the real answer is there isn't really a bad choice there.
Honestly I'm starting to really hate the oracle.
Medium Bab and hit dice I can understand -- the divine get to be better that's just part of the difference between arcane and divine. Same thing with the armor.
But they also get more powers than the sorcerer, they get more spells known than the sorcerer (cures in addition to the spells known), they get their bonus spells earlier than the sorcerer (2nd level now instead of third), and more skill points...
It just reeks of divine favoritism, something I was already tired of with the wizard -> cleric thing.
Honestly I'm starting to really hate the oracle.
Medium Bab and hit dice I can understand -- the divine get to be better that's just part of the difference between arcane and divine. Same thing with the armor.
But they also get more powers than the sorcerer, they get more spells known than the sorcerer (cures in addition to the spells known), they get their bonus spells earlier than the sorcerer (2nd level now instead of third), and more skill points...
It just reeks of divine favoritism, something I was already tired of with the wizard -> cleric thing.
... and none of that matters when the sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's. Arcane classes have worse statlines than divine classes because arcane magic is better than divine magic at most things (self-buffing excluded; haste and invisibility sphere pretty much outdo every divine party buff). Arcane classes also generally need fewer stats to excel; divine classes tend to have split roles, needing more stats to fill those roles than arcane classes do. For example, in order to heal, the Oracle has to be adjacent to the person he's trying to heal, meaning he's going to need to be on or near the front line. That means he needs enough dex and con to survive there, and can't skimp too much on strength since he needs to wear armor, while a sorcerer can get away with dumping pretty much everything except charisma and a little bit of con.
Not to mention the oracle has to pick a pretty limiting curse.
Well, the oracle won't have more more spells known than a human sorcerer...Honestly I'm starting to really hate the oracle...
But they also get more powers than the sorcerer, they get more spells known than the sorcerer (cures in addition to the spells known), they get their bonus spells earlier than the sorcerer (2nd level now instead of third), and more skill points...
*casts Protection from Fire*
Here we go again...
Well, the oracle won't have more more spells known than a human sorcerer...
As we have not seen what a human Oracle , or anyone else gains yet..you just can't say that for sure.
Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.
+1
"exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with)"LOL
... and none of that matters when the sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's. Arcane classes have worse statlines than divine classes because arcane magic is better than divine magic at most things (self-buffing excluded; haste and invisibility sphere pretty much outdo every divine party buff). Arcane classes also generally need fewer stats to excel; divine classes tend to have split roles, needing more stats to fill those roles than arcane classes do. For example, in order to heal, the Oracle has to be adjacent to the person he's trying to heal, meaning he's going to need to be on or near the front line. That means he needs enough dex and con to survive there, and can't skimp too much on strength since he needs to wear armor, while a sorcerer can get away with dumping pretty much everything except charisma and a little bit of con.Honestly I'm starting to really hate the oracle.
Medium Bab and hit dice I can understand -- the divine get to be better that's just part of the difference between arcane and divine. Same thing with the armor.
But they also get more powers than the sorcerer, they get more spells known than the sorcerer (cures in addition to the spells known), they get their bonus spells earlier than the sorcerer (2nd level now instead of third), and more skill points...
It just reeks of divine favoritism, something I was already tired of with the wizard -> cleric thing.
+1
And I think the APG will giva all classes including the sorcerer more options.
Although there is a risk that the Oracle will turn out to be the new CoDzilla. fullplate, Quicken spell, spontanious caster, Revelations such as Combat Healer, War Sight, Weapon Mastery and Batlle's and Heaven's Final Revelation. On top of that they get powerful arcane bonus spells.
As for the "sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's" I'm not sure. What spells would that be? Haste and invisibility sphere? Both are 3:d level spells.
I think before we hold a funeral ceremony for the summoner, we should perhaps read the book. We don't know what else may have changed.We in my groap have no issue with the ability to summon and dismiss the eidolon at will; that aspect is rather necessary for the class. It is the nerf with the summon monster SLA that has us peeved.I totally agree. That's a massive hit with the nerfbat to the summoner which makes it boring to play. If you want to play a 'real' summoner, then play a conjurer specialist wizard. It will be more powerful and more interesting.
I'm still looking forward to the book though as there are other lots of great ideas and creative concepts. Just really disappointed with the summoner that had so much potential.
[activate chorus of doom]Nooooo you foooool the summoner is totally broken...oh yes and all the other classes are broken too..and the spells..and the Monsters..and the whole game system.[deactivate chorus of doom]
;)
Although there is a risk that the Oracle will turn out to be the new CoDzilla. fullplate, Quicken spell, spontanious caster, Revelations such as Combat Healer, War Sight, Weapon Mastery and Batlle's and Heaven's Final Revelation. On top of that they get powerful arcane bonus spells.
As for the "sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's" I'm not sure. What spells would that be? Haste and invisibility sphere? Both are 3:d level spells.
I was going to say Time stop, but as a matter of fact the Lore mystery grants you that among other things. Still, Time stop isn't an oracle spell in itself so I still think it's a good answer to your question.
Maybe the class is overpowered, maybe not.Hmmm, I almost want to play one to see how it turns.
Whereas I see a dwarf's interest in brewing turning into exploration of other things you can brew (and "intoxicate" yourself with), a dwarf's resistance to poison and confrontation with drow turning into an interest in enhancing poison resistance and finding ways to quickly disable those pesky drow, and their love of engineering and tunneling turning into exploration of demolitions.
Exactly !
Although there is a risk that the Oracle will turn out to be the new CoDzilla. fullplate, Quicken spell, spontanious caster, Revelations such as Combat Healer, War Sight, Weapon Mastery and Batlle's and Heaven's Final Revelation. On top of that they get powerful arcane bonus spells.
As for the "sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's" I'm not sure. What spells would that be? Haste and invisibility sphere? Both are 3:d level spells.
I was going to say Time stop, but as a matter of fact the Lore mystery grants you that among other things. Still, Time stop isn't an oracle spell in itself so I still think it's a good answer to your question.
Maybe the class is overpowered, maybe not.
The rest of the abilities Zark mentioned are part of the Oracle of Battle revelations, so time stop is a perfectly decent reply.
I also think that, when the first revelation you have to take in order to make the "CoDzilla" work from a Battle oracle is one that, er, gives you martial and heavy armor proficiency and that's it... well. I'm not quaking in my steel-plated boots for the fighter's dominance just yet.
[activate chorus of doom]Nooooo you foooool the summoner is totally broken...oh yes and all the other classes are broken too..and the spells..and the Monsters..and the whole game system.[deactivate chorus of doom];)
The doom chorus would have been more impressive if it weren't for the 3 drunk dwarves in the bass section forgetting they weren't singing drinking songs and chanting 'GOLD GOLD GOLD' over and over.
Other than that, and the fact the Glabrezu in the back ate the halfling tenor section halfway through, it was pretty good.
;)
... and none of that matters when the sorcerer's spells are so much better than the oracle's. Arcane classes have worse statlines than divine classes because arcane magic is better than divine magic at most things (self-buffing excluded; haste and invisibility sphere pretty much outdo every divine party buff). Arcane classes also generally need fewer stats to excel; divine classes tend to have split roles, needing more stats to fill those roles than arcane classes do. For example, in order to heal, the Oracle has to be adjacent to the person he's trying to heal, meaning he's going to need to be on or near the front line. That means he needs enough dex and con to survive there, and can't skimp too much on strength since he needs to wear armor, while a sorcerer can get away with dumping pretty much everything except charisma and a little bit of con.Honestly I'm starting to really hate the oracle.
Medium Bab and hit dice I can understand -- the divine get to be better that's just part of the difference between arcane and divine. Same thing with the armor.
But they also get more powers than the sorcerer, they get more spells known than the sorcerer (cures in addition to the spells known), they get their bonus spells earlier than the sorcerer (2nd level now instead of third), and more skill points...
It just reeks of divine favoritism, something I was already tired of with the wizard -> cleric thing.
Actually most of this is "folk wisdom" that doesn't really hold up.
The oracle has spells at all levels that are just as nice (in many cases nicer than) as the sorcerer.
In fact he needs Con less than the sorcerer since the oracle has better hit dice, he needs int less than the sorcerer since he has more skill points, due to the better buffs in general (at least self buffs) he needs less strength and dex -- especially since armor isn't an issue for the oracle.
In fact the sorcerer is going to need all the same stats as the oracle only higher since he doesn't have any of the additional advantages the oracle gets.
Ok so the oracle has a curse -- except this 'curse' also gives him even more special abilities.
To say that the oracle has more of a "split" role than the sorcerer is incorrect too -- that isn't "built" into the class -- it's up to the player. The sorcerer can split his roles just as much as the oracle and if he does he needs the even higher stats since, again, he doesn't have as good baseline scores.
The oracle has spells at all levels that are just as nice (in many cases nicer than) as the sorcerer.
Not really, no. With the exception of self buffs, as I mentioned before.
In fact he needs Con less than the sorcerer since the oracle has better hit dice
Yeahhhh... you try running into melee with d8+0 HD.
In fact the sorcerer is going to need all the same stats as the oracle only higher since he doesn't have any of the additional advantages the oracle gets.
What are you smoking? You can build a 100% viable sorcerer with a 7 str, 7 dex, 10 con, 7 int, 7 wis, X Cha. The same most definitely cannot be said of an oracle.
Ok so the oracle has a curse -- except this 'curse' also gives him even more special abilities.
The curse more than outweighs the bonuses it gives. Every single one of them is a very significant drawback.
To say that the oracle has more of a "split" role than the sorcerer is incorrect too -- that isn't "built" into the class
100% false. The healing spells are, in fact, built into the class. If you're a good or neutral oracle, guess what, you get healing spells. When you have healing spells, you're pretty much expected to cover the role of healer. And, if you're comparing him to the sorcerer, then you obviously also want him to cover the role of blaster/debuffer. That's two roles. Meanwhile, the sorcerer only has to cover the role of blaster/debuffer. That's one role. One < Two, for the record.
IF a sorcerer can do str 7, dex 7, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 7 Cha 20 then an oracle can do it too and will still end up better off too. It's absolutely rediculous to suggest otherwise. Anything that sorcerer is going to do the oracle will be able to do too -- and more to boot. Most of the spells the sorcerer gets have a divine equivelent and if not half the time the oracle can still get access to them as DIVINE spells.
Running into melee with a HD of d8 is still better than doing it with a HD of d6 -- In fact a d6 hit dice and NO ARMOR. NOTHING in the oracle states you MUST go into melee. So that's a false argument -- you CAN but that isn't the same as you MUST -- just like the sorcerer.
An every single curse gives significant advantages. Very significant.
OH wow I'm lame -- go thing I go around MOUNTED so I can avoid having to move. Blind -- but I get better other senses for it.
SO What on the spells? Clerics get to spontaneously cast cure spells -- this doesn't mean they have too. Might as well give sorcerers a bunch of blasting spells for free too since "they need them" (which was the logic used in freely giving the cure spells to the oracle -- which is a bunch of bunk). The oracle DOES NOT have to heal. He can CHOOSE to do so but he isn't forced into the role any more than the sorcerer is "forced" into blasting/debuffer (which he isn't).
The healing spells are, in fact, built into the class. If you're a good or neutral oracle, guess what, you get healing spells.
Correction: there is no connection between alignment and cure or inflict spells whatsoever for oracles, at least insofar as the playtest version is concerned.
Anything that sorcerer is going to do the oracle will be able to do too ... Most of the spells the sorcerer gets have a divine equivelent and if not half the time the oracle can still get access to them as DIVINE spells.
None of that is even remotely close to true. You seriously need to actually read the arcane and divine spell lists, because you're laboring under some serious delusions. Color spray beats every cleric offensive/debuff spell up to 4th level. So does glitterdust, which is AOE blindness a level earlier, with the addition of an anti-stealth component! Haste beats every party buff on the entire Cleric list. None of those have divine equivalents, and only the Heavens oracle gets any of those spells.
Running into melee with a HD of d8 is still better than doing it with a HD of d6
Since there's zero incentive at all for a (non-aberrant) sorcerer to be on the front line, that's absolutely fine.
NOTHING in the oracle states you MUST go into melee.
If you want to heal, you have to be in/near melee to heal the people that are going to need healed. Besides, YOU were the one whining about how the Oracle gets medium BAB and heavy armor. What else are you going to do with that?
OH wow I'm lame -- go thing I go around MOUNTED so I can avoid having to move.
Mounted on what? A horse? Guess what? That horse will last 0.5 seconds in any combat past 1st or 2nd level, plus it can't climb a ladder or rope, can't navigate 5' hallways or doors, can't carry you around inside buildings in town, etc etc.
Blind -- but I get better other senses for it.
All of which cap at 60' range, and that's at high levels. Not being able to target anything past 30-60' is a massive hindrance and not at all worth the extra senses. It leaves you flat-footed to nearly all ranged attacks and almost guarantees you'll be surprised in the surprise round. It also makes all those medium and long range spells you have into close range spells, which would be a worthwhile curse all on its own. As it is, the blindness curse is actually the second most crippling (after the poltergeist curse, which turns every spell with a material component into a full-round action).
The oracle DOES NOT have to heal.
Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".
I've argued it since the 1st playtest and I'll say it again---When you're taking levels in a class called SUMMONER, you better be damned good at summoning than the Conjurer is. When the Conjurer beats you in that department, something is wrong.
If the Eidolon was truly the point of the Summoner's forte, than you should've named the class an "Eidolancer" or something. Not a Summoner, which implies a mastery of conjuration, summoning creatures, both average and unique, to do your bidding, and so on.
It appears I will be houseruling that also. I will be allowing the SLA to work alongside with the Eidolon. I'm not letting this class get trumped by a Conjurer in terms of summoning creatures.
Now, if a Summoner only has to burn a feat to get SLA to work with an Eidolon (don't forget we have new feats in the APG, maybe there'll be a feat to allow SLA to work with Eidolon) then it won't be so bad. I'm up for a feat burn...even though I am sure it's going to be one of those "must take" feats for Summoners, sadly.
I allow my PCs to summon unique creatures, as per the optional rule in the DMG. Another way this class could've kept this nerf and be ok would be to give them more SLA, particular free Planar Ally SLA without having to spend the money for the ability.
My ONLY peeve with this book is one thing:
It's going to be a real pain in the ass to get my Spell Compendium and other books and start matching the spells from those books with 4 of the spellcasting classes in there (my main argument for using spells by school and type, and not individual spells, to make the lists).
I hope those guidelines for adding new spells to the spell list for the spellcasting classes are thorough.
The curse more than outweighs the bonuses it gives. Every single one of them is a very significant drawback.
I don't agree. I'd say that's far from the truth.
Anything that sorcerer is going to do the oracle will be able to do too ... Most of the spells the sorcerer gets have a divine equivelent and if not half the time the oracle can still get access to them as DIVINE spells.None of that is even remotely close to true. You seriously need to actually read the arcane and divine spell lists, because you're laboring under some serious delusions. Color spray beats every cleric offensive/debuff spell up to 4th level. So does glitterdust, which is AOE blindness a level earlier, with the addition of an anti-stealth component! Haste beats every party buff on the entire Cleric list. None of those have divine equivalents, and only the Heavens oracle gets any of those spells.
I agree the Oracle can't do everything the sorcerer can do, but saying haste beats every party buff on the entire Cleric list is just sky high rethoric.
It's all depends on the situation; what kind of party you have; what kind of campaign you run; etc.Bless, Prayer, Heroes’ Feast, Holy Aura are all nice buff spells.
If you want to play a CoDzilla you don't need haste. You have Divine Power.
As for color spray in the BETA Heaven Oracle had that on her list and she could pick Awesome Display. That cobination made color spray potent
up until level 7 or 8....or even 9.
I also agree with Abraham on dex and con.
And oracle can heal herslef thus con is not as important as If you are a sorcerer, neither is dex since she can cast spells in armor. Even in a fullplate.
Where a sorcerer would start with 14 dex and 14 con using 20 PB an Oracle would be just fine with 10 dex and 12 con.
An Oracle can dump int to 8 (or even 7) where as a sorcerer would probbably start with 12 or even 14.
That said a sorcerer have an easier time using rods since she doesn't use shields or weapons.
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The sorcerer does just fine, comparing it to the Oracle is a bit ridiculous.
Wizard gets his spells and a few minor powers
Cleric get spells plus channel, domain powers, domain spells, and armor
Clearly the designers feel arcane magic has some significant advantages over divine.
The oracle and sorcerer have a similar 'inbalance' for exactly the same reason.
The sorcerer does just fine, comparing it to the Oracle is a bit ridiculous.
Wizard gets his spells and a few minor powers
Cleric get spells plus channel, domain powers, domain spells, and armor
Clearly the designers feel arcane magic has some significant advantages over divine.
The oracle and sorcerer have a similar 'inbalance' for exactly the same reason.
And the Ogre gets it right...
As for color spray in the BETA Heaven Oracle had that on her list and she could pick Awesome Display. That cobination made color spray potent
up until level 7 or 8....or even 9.
False. I realize English isn't your primary language, but you're reading Awesome Display incorrectly (as was covered in the "Heaven Oracles are overpowered OMGWTF!" subthread you started and then abandoned when it went against you). It reduces the total HD of the group of enemies; it has no effect on an individual enemy's HD. It actually has no effect on color spray at all, since color spray doesn't have a clause for how many HD of creatures it can affect.
I agree the Oracle can't do everything the sorcerer can do, but saying haste beats every party buff on the entire Cleric list is just sky high rethoric.
It's all depends on the situation; what kind of party you have; what kind of campaign you run; etc.
Bless, Prayer, Heroes’ Feast, Holy Aura are all nice buff spells.
Haste is stronger than bless, prayer, and heroes' feast. Holy aura is a stronger defensive buff, but I'd rather have haste than holy aura in 9 fights out of 10, especially as it doesn't take an 8th level spell slot. Not that there's much else useful at 8th level on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level suck because they're still suffering the effects of the 2nd edition Cleric list stopping at 7th level, so all those 7th level spells had to be spread out over three levels in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, and frequently without notable improvements.
If you want to play a CoDzilla you don't need haste. You have Divine Power.
Divine power does not a CoDzilla make. Especially since you have to waste a round of combat casting it. Haste is a worthwhile cast because it affects the entire party. Divine power usually isn't because it only affects yourself, and it's even worse because you need more than just divine power to be viable in melee. By the time you've cast all the self-only buffs you need to cast to be a viable melee combatant, the fight's over. CoDzilla used Divine Metamagic Persistent divine power, but that's not an option in core Pathfinder like we're discussing.
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Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".
Honestly I hope that isn't true and if it is I'm glad I don't play in that game. I understand the point you're trying to make but for other people to be yelling at the oracle for having a different idea in mind for their charcter just seems way to douchey. Sorry, that line of thinking is just a pet peeve of mine.
IF a sorcerer can do str 7, dex 7, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 7 Cha 20 then an oracle can do it too and will still end up better off too. It's absolutely rediculous to suggest otherwise. Anything that sorcerer is going to do the oracle will be able to do too -- and more to boot. Most of the spells the sorcerer gets have a divine equivelent and if not half the time the oracle can still get access to them as DIVINE spells.
Running into melee with a HD of d8 is still better than doing it with a HD of d6 -- In fact a d6 hit dice and NO ARMOR. NOTHING in the oracle states you MUST go into melee. So that's a false argument -- you CAN but that isn't the same as you MUST -- just like the sorcerer.
An every single curse gives significant advantages. Very significant.
OH wow I'm lame -- go thing I go around MOUNTED so I can avoid having to move. Blind -- but I get better other senses for it.
SO What on the spells? Clerics get to spontaneously cast cure spells -- this doesn't mean they have too. Might as well give sorcerers a bunch of blasting spells for free too since "they need them" (which was the logic used in freely giving the cure spells to the oracle -- which is a bunch of bunk). The oracle DOES NOT have to heal. He can CHOOSE to do so but he isn't forced into the role any more than the sorcerer is "forced" into blasting/debuffer (which he isn't).
Just going to throw my 2 cents in here.
From play testing in group that had the Oracle and Sorcerer the Sorcerer was better came off a little better. We found the Oracle end up being stuck healing which severely limits their available spells. So they don't get lots for buffing themselves as they are stuck taking cure spells. Now a Oracle in group with a Cleric things might be different as an Oracle could be free to not take healing spells. I could see the Oracle being better than the sorcerer in that case as long as you had an arcane spell caster still. If you ended with group with a rogue, fighter, cleric and oracle having sorcerer would still better than the Oracle. But in a group with fighter, cleric, rogue, sorcerer, and oracle the oracle could really shine.