I can't wait to see more. I'm especially excited about some of the alternate class feature stuff, though. I'm a sucker for ACFs, or, well, pretty much any sort of customization stuff.
Me too. The more options, the better!
Bring on the archetypes next.
MOAR PREVIEWS ... GIEB ! ... NERDRAGEEE !Soon.. oh yes.. soon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer paging through Chapter 2 of the APG
Paizo Publishing
yes, make it soon.
I've been giving the human Sorcerer some thought and I'm flip flopping.I guess it's a good thing they get some more spells know. I only hope there is a feat that grants more spells known so other races / charcaters get the possibility increase their repertoire of spells know.
...and I do hope this includes other spontaneous caster classes such as Bards and Oracles. :-)
Dammit. I need to learn to type faster. I'm going to be late to work for nothing, now.
Oh, well. Bring on the APG previews. We want more! :)
I should have been at work right about now. I'll be 45 minutes late.If my boss is in a bad mood she'll have a fit.
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yes, make it soon.
I've been giving the human Sorcerer some thought and I'm flip flopping.
I guess it's a good thing they get some more spells know. I only hope there is a feat that grants more spells known so other races / charcaters get the possibility increase their repertoire of spells know.
...and I do hope this includes other spontaneous caster classes such as Bards and Oracles. :-)
Jason hinted above that such a feat was forthcoming and that it would be better than the previous versions of additional spell.
Any chance of a preview of clerical sub-domains? The only info I have come across is in a pod cast and didn't give any consrete examples of go into much detail.
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I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
Any time your hit points are reduced to -1, exactly.
Any time your hit points are reduced to 0, exactly.
Any time your hit points are reduced to a negative equal to your Constitution modifier, exactly.
Any time you fail your Perception check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.
Any time you fail your Stealth check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.
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Regarding the "all sorcerers are human" thing.
I usually always DM for my group, but right now I'm actually getting to play. As a gamer, I've always loved mages and magic. Playing (as opposed to DMming) is such a breath of fresh air, though, that I really wanted to minimize my 'homework' and prep-time... so I skipped the wizard and played a halfling sorcerer.
In this circumstance, I would not have gone with human, had the APG come out before I made my character, and here's why. I don't want to be the 'fix it' guy - I don't want to have all the spells, or be responsible for every little utility tool. My teammates don't expect me to solve every problem with magic as they would a wizard. They expect me to kill stuff, and right now, that's how I like it.
Any time your hit points are reduced to -1, exactly.Any time your hit points are reduced to 0, exactly.
Any time your hit points are reduced to a negative equal to your Constitution modifier, exactly.
And when is an extra spell more valuable than an extra hit point?
When you just get tossed off a cliff and realized you were able to learn Feather Fall.When you realize you didn't have to choose between Blur and Mirror Image.
When you realized you didn't have to give up anything useful to learn False Life to get 1d10+lvl extra HP for lvl hours.
Any time you fail your Perception check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.
Good thing that bonus spell known gave you the opportunity to learn Detect Thoughts so you would be able to know there are things in the area instead of trying to make a perception check against a Kenku Rogue.
Any time you fail your Stealth check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.
Good thing you learned Invisibility instead of wasting an extra skill point on Stealth you weren't maxing out to begin with.
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Any time your hit points are reduced to -1, exactly.Any time your hit points are reduced to 0, exactly.
Any time your hit points are reduced to a negative equal to your Constitution modifier, exactly.
And when is an extra spell more valuable than an extra hit point?
When you just get tossed off a cliff and realized you were able to learn Feather Fall.
When you realize you didn't have to choose between Blur and Mirror Image.
When you realized you didn't have to give up anything useful to learn False Life to get 1d10+lvl extra HP for lvl hours.Any time you fail your Perception check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.Good thing that bonus spell known gave you the opportunity to learn Detect Thoughts so you would be able to know there are things in the area instead of trying to make a perception check against a Kenku Rogue.
Any time you fail your Stealth check by 1, and cannot act in the all-important surprise round.Good thing you learned Invisibility instead of wasting an extra skill point on Stealth you weren't maxing out to begin with.
This just goes to show, all three options are equally viable. Your bonus spells did the same thing as the extra hit points and skill points. As I said earlier in this post,in my mind that pretty much seals it.
As has been pointed out NUMEROUS times in this thread, its all about choices and play style. Because of this, what is power creep for some is a nice addition for others. You are of course entitled to your own opinion. But just remember that what EVERYONE in this thread is stating, including myself, is their opinion. I'm no more right that you are, than anyone else in this thread.
This just goes to show, all three options are equally viable. Your bonus spells did the same thing as the extra hit points and skill points. As I said earlier in this post,in my mind that pretty much seals it.
Being one use of said spells and the only, or nearly only, use of the skills. The hit point comparison is nowhere close.
Which reminds me that while I had originally thought the combination of search, spot and listen into one skill was great, it doesn't really work out in 3.5/Pathfinder if you think about it.
Ok,
here is something I don't think anyone has pointed out.
If you have more variety of spells, you are going to use them more often, probably when you could have gotten by without using them.
HPs and SPs don't run out per day. Spells do. I saw someone up above say a SP was important when you miss that stealth roll by 1. Then someone else snarkily (IMHO) replied with 'Yeah, isn't it a good thing you learned Invisibility instead and didn't need to make the stealth roll'.
That's an excellent example of how it's actually not overpowering. Sure, that invisibility spell gives a bonus to your stealth (you still have to roll it, unless you also have float and silence on as well)). However, you used that spell slot to cast invisibility instead of sneaking. That means you used up a resource that is limited to do something you could have done using an unlimited resource instead. Same with the spells that grant temporary hit points, you used a resource to get the same effect as a permanent HP bonus.
I see that extra flexibility as a giant two-edged sword. Sure, it means you can more likely have a spell to fit a given situation. It also means you are using your spells more often and may not have enough to finish up the day. For example, if you invisible stealthed through town, you might have cast all your spell slots for the day for that level to do it. Sure, you made it through much easier, but you also didn't have any spell slots of that level when you got out of town and the bullet attacked from underground.
Well said MDT, I agree wholeheartedly
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Which reminds me that while I had originally thought the combination of search, spot and listen into one skill was great, it doesn't really work out in 3.5/Pathfinder if you think about it.
Again, I completely disagree, I LOVE the combination into one skill. Works out well for me and my play style. Again, it seems to come down to play style. And your spells which you keep talking about, you can always pick up on scrolls. Yes, it costs money, but so would picking up items to boost hit points/skills. Again, Im seeing nothing that makes the extra spells the goto pick, nor overpowering. Looks like we are at an agree to disagree impasse here.
HP run out all the time.
But how much more often are you going to be making skill checks than you are spell casting?
That means you used up a resource that is limited to do something you could have done using an unlimited resource instead.
I used up a resource for its designed use - not being seen. When you don't want to be seen are you going to rely on a skill that you aren't focusing on if you don't have to? If you do, then you deserve to fail.
Same with the spells that grant temporary hit points, you used a resource to get the same effect as a permanent HP bonus.
No, I used a spell that lasts for HOURS to get a WAY better effect than a permanent +1 HP bonus.
For example, if you invisible stealthed through town,
Why are you even sneaking through town?
Again, I completely disagree, I LOVE the combination into one skill.
It works great in 4e because they removed alot of the stuff that throws it off. Think about it.
A blind person would be lucky to perceive a train rattling by them because of his massive penalty to perception. Although he can hear just fine.A deaf person would be lucky to spot a person walking straight towards him.
The gods help you if you have a deaf and blind dog trying to track by scent.
The problem is combining listen and spot and search into one skill yet still having things in the game that effect each differently.
Spot and search should have gone together and listen should have been left separate.
HP run out all the time.
But how much more often are you going to be making skill checks than you are spell casting?
That means you used up a resource that is limited to do something you could have done using an unlimited resource instead.I used up a resource for its designed use - not being seen. When you don't want to be seen are you going to rely on a skill that you aren't focusing on if you don't have to? If you do, then you deserve to fail.
Same with the spells that grant temporary hit points, you used a resource to get the same effect as a permanent HP bonus.No, I used a spell that lasts for HOURS to get a WAY better effect than a permanent +1 HP bonus.
For example, if you invisible stealthed through town,Why are you even sneaking through town?
A) If your game is only 'Go to pt A on map, fight, rest, go to pt B, fight, rest, got to pt C' then yes, you may have a point. In my games, it tends to be about 60-70% RP (and lots of skill checks) and about 30-40% combat. IMHO the former is not roleplay, it's just combat simulation, in which case yes, the skill points are useless. If it's the latter, then the spells aren't more powerful than a few good skills.
B) You used a resource as it was designed, but, you are also using that resource much more than you would have before (I thought I said that earlier, apparently you didn't make the connection). That means you will not have that resource the full day. It's really rather simple. Sorcerer A has 12 spells, Sorcerer B has 8. Both have 10 spell slots per day. Since A has way more opportunities to use his spells, he will run out of spell slots before B, if for no other reason than B simply can't cast a spell in a given situation and be useful.
C) That hours long HP spell is utterly useless if you've used up all your spell slots earlier in the day casting other spells because of your more versatile spell repitoire.
D) Why am I sneaking through town? My, what a wonderfully witty comeback. Why are you casting HP spells? Why are you casting invisibility spells? Why are you casting fireball? Why are you casting Mage Armor? Why are you casting Prestidigitation? Why are you casting Cone of Cold? Why are you <insert infinite list of utterly pointless questions>?
Again, I completely disagree, I LOVE the combination into one skill.It works great in 4e because they removed alot of the stuff that throws it off. Think about it.
A blind person would be lucky to perceive a train rattling by them because of his massive penalty to perception. Although he can hear just fine.
A deaf person would be lucky to spot a person walking straight towards him.
The gods help you if you have a deaf and blind dog trying to track by scent.The problem is combining listen and spot and search into one skill yet still having things in the game that effect each differently.
Spot and search should have gone together and listen should have been left separate.
The blindness penalty only applies to situations where sight is necessary. In the case of noticing the train next to you, the only senses you need are hearing and touch (vibrations from it going past). So, no penalty on the check.
If, on the other hand, you're walking along a bridge that has collapsed and are about to step off into midair, then hearing and touch are of no use (or very limited, since by the time you realize you haven't touched wood you're falling) then the penalty applies.
It's actually fairly simple.
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It works great in 4e because they removed alot of the stuff that throws it off. Think about it.
A blind person would be lucky to perceive a train rattling by them because of his massive penalty to perception. Although he can hear just fine.
A deaf person would be lucky to spot a person walking straight towards him.
The gods help you if you have a deaf and blind dog trying to track by scent.The problem is combining listen and spot and search into one skill yet still having things in the game that effect each differently.
Spot and search should have gone together and listen should have been left separate.
If your not taking into account the method of perception when making checks, that comes down to your style of play. Deaf person trying to make a perception check involving hearing? The DC just got harder for that character. Does it say this in the rule book? Couldn't tell you, but I take factors such as this into account when I GM. It is in effect the same as if you had left listen as a separate skill, but gives the PC the nice feeling of not having to spend skills all over the place.
Again, differences in playstyle.
EDIT: Just so we are clear, im NOT telling you that you're playing wrong, just the different play styles seems to have created a difference in opinion on this change. Again, just showing my point that play style/ game style is HUGE in effecting how individuals perceive the various rules.
B) You used a resource as it was designed, but, you are also using that resource much more than you would have before
I thought you were previously getting uppity about your games being RP and not combat sims. Are you now implying, in contrary to that, that spells are only for combat?
That means you will not have that resource the full day.
I'm sorry, I fail to even remotely see your point. You use spells and they are used! Imagine that!
C) That hours long HP spell is utterly useless if you've used up all your spell slots earlier in the day casting other spells because of your more versatile spell repitoire.
Oh no, then I only have 1-X less HP than the any other Sorcerer of my level! Unless you give your players max HP every level, I fail to see how this is even relevant anyway.
D) Why am I sneaking through town?
That is indeed that question I asked.
If your not taking into account the method of perception when making checks, that comes down to your style of play. Deaf person trying to make a perception check involving hearing? The DC just got harder for that character. Does it say this in the rule book? Couldn't tell you, but I take factors such as this into account when I GM. It is in effect the same as if you had left listen as a separate skill, but gives the PC the nice feeling of not having to spend skills all over the place.
It's in the rules. Which still does not negate my point. In fact, if we read to the end, I say this:
The problem is combining listen and spot and search into one skill yet still having things in the game that effect each differently.
Spot and search should have gone together and listen should have been left separate.
Well said MDT, I agree wholeheartedly
+1.
B) … It's really rather simple. Sorcerer A has 12 spells, Sorcerer B has 8. Both have 10 spell slots per day. …
This pretty much says it all. I'm not seeing a major power discrepancy between the two. Sorcerer A has more variety in spell choices. Sorcerer B has slightly more hp and/or skill pts.
To be honest, if you're using your extra spell choices to compensate for lower hp/skills, instead of using them to gain other abilities, then you're not really getting the most out of the choice:
Sorcerer A casts false life before an adventure gaining an avg. 13.5 hp for several hours
Sorcerer B took all hp boosts and has +8 hp.
Sorcerer A has 9 slots remaining
Sorcerer B still has 10 slots remaining
Sorcerer A casts false life before an adventure gaining an avg. 13.5 hp for several hours
Sorcerer B took all hp boosts and has +8 hp.
Sorcerer A has 9 slots remaining
Sorcerer B still has 10 slots remaining
Not to mention that Sorcerer B's hit points are real hit points and can be refilled to that +8, while Sorcerer A's hit points are temp hit points and cannot be refilled without casting false life again and further decreasing his remaining spell slots.
Not to mention that Sorcerer B's hit points are real hit points and can be refilled to that +8, while Sorcerer A's hit points are temp hit points and cannot be refilled without casting false life again and further decreasing his remaining spell slots.Sorcerer A casts false life before an adventure gaining an avg. 13.5 hp for several hours
Sorcerer B took all hp boosts and has +8 hp.
Sorcerer A has 9 slots remaining
Sorcerer B still has 10 slots remaining
Agreed, the extra spells known give ya more options. It does not give you more power. It looks nice on paper, but really you have the very same limits you had before.
Sorcerer b can also take and cast false life, giving him the same amount of spell left to cast and 13 more Hp the sorcerer A
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not to mention that Sorcerer B's hit points are real hit points and can be refilled to that +8, while Sorcerer A's hit points are temp hit points and cannot be refilled without casting false life again and further decreasing his remaining spell slots.Sorcerer A casts false life before an adventure gaining an avg. 13.5 hp for several hours
Sorcerer B took all hp boosts and has +8 hp.
Sorcerer A has 9 slots remaining
Sorcerer B still has 10 slots remaining
Not only that, but sorcerer B can still use a wand of false life (or simply pick the spell as one of the ones they know without bonus spells) and get the temp hp AND the favored class hp; they're not mutually exclusive.
Not to mention that Sorcerer B's hit points are real hit points and can be refilled to that +8, while Sorcerer A's hit points are temp hit points and cannot be refilled without casting false life again and further decreasing his remaining spell slots.Sorcerer A casts false life before an adventure gaining an avg. 13.5 hp for several hours
Sorcerer B took all hp boosts and has +8 hp.
Sorcerer A has 9 slots remaining
Sorcerer B still has 10 slots remaining
Agreed, the extra spells known give ya more options. It does not give you more power. It looks nice on paper, but really you have the very same limits you had before.
Sorcerer b can also take and cast false life, giving him the same amount of spell left to cast and 13 more Hp the sorcerer A
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Because then all sorcerers would look almost the same.
Because then they would be almost like wizards.
Because that would be boring.
BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that the choice doesn't give the sorcerer ANY power. Of course it gives them more power. It just doesn't grant nearly as much power as it at first seems.
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Ok I really have no clue what =/= means I see it get used a bit on here however. Now as to the spells, well that is the wizards area. The sorcerer has more per day and can cast any he knows but has a limited amount. Meanwhile the wizard casts fewer and has to plan ahead but has pretty much no limit on how many he can know.
It gives the two classes a very different fell over all. But the sorcerer does have a hard limit. While the new option does not make it more powerful, no one will say it does not give them more options, but the options are still limited by spells per day.
What I want to know is why should divine casters get to know all on the list :)
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Ok I really have no clue what =/= means I see it get used a bit on here however. Now as to the spells, well that is the wizards area. The sorcerer has more per day and can cast any he knows but has a limited amount. Meanwhile the wizard casts fewer and has to plan ahead but has pretty much no limit on how many he can know.
It gives the two classes a very different fell over all. But the sorcerer does have a hard limit. While the new option does not make it more powerful, no one will say it does not give them more options, but the options are still limited by spells per day.
What I want to know is why should divine casters get to know all on the list :)
=/= means "does not equal."
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Because then all sorcerers would look almost the same.
Because then they would be almost like wizards.
Because that would be boring.
BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that the choice doesn't give the sorcerer ANY power. Of course it gives them more power. It just doesn't grant nearly as much power as it at first seems.
Honestly, I really liked the trend WoTC had of creating new 'sorcerer varient' classes by giving them a fixed list of 'spells known' and a smaller list of 'individual choice' spells. I love the warmage, beguiler, etc. A large (themed) spell list, a handful of 'other' spells chosen to make them more unique, and some unusual abilities.
What I'd really like to do is work up a 'Specialist' class for homebrew. Based off a sorcerer, but instead of bloodline, they choose a 'specialty' which grants a given list of spells and allows 1 spell per level of spell known that is chosen from any spell on a given list (For example, a Nature specialist might have mostly druid spells, and be able to pick one druid spell known per level of spell castable to be unique, while a 'combat' specialist would have a list similar to a warmage and able to pick any evocation spells to customize).
=/= means "does not equal."
Thank ya, been wondering about that one.
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Because then all sorcerers would look almost the same.
Because then they would be almost like wizards.
Because that would be boring.
BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that the choice doesn't give the sorcerer ANY power. Of course it gives them more power. It just doesn't grant nearly as much power as it at first seems.
This is my point. Sorcers have limited spells known. At what point does giving them more spells known unbalance them towards other full casters, who can't cast spontaneously. As it sits, the new favored class is about a 33% increase in a sorcerer's spells known, which I would certainly term as significant. Only play testing will show it to be overpowered or not, and I'm leaning towards it maybe not being overpowering but EXTREMELY strong and utterly changing the way the class is played.
A sorcerer can be played as a themed spellcaster, and often is to great effect, but then they have holes in their repertoir for utility spells that a wizard will excel at, i.e. rope trick or shrink item. This allows a sorcerer to take these as well, even if they aren't a power spell they will be using often or can be used in a myriad of situations. It makes them look more like a spontaneous wizard than a different animal. Is this bad? Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.
Thank ya, been wondering about that one.
=/= means "does not equal."
For the record, != means the same thing. You'll see me use that instead because that's how it's written in C++, and I don't want to get in the habit of writing "does not equal" any other way.
BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that the choice doesn't give the sorcerer ANY power. Of course it gives them more power. It just doesn't grant nearly as much power as it at first seems.
True
But it gives more power than 1 HP or 1 SP.
Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.
I was actually considering doing the same thing. Aasimar sorceror with the Celestial bloodline. Sounds like fun times to me.
If more spells known=/=more power then why not give sorcerers ALL spells known automatically?
Because then all sorcerers would look almost the same.
Because then they would be almost like wizards.
Because that would be boring.
So a bunch of nonsense you made up on the spot?
The one thing I keep seeing is that people feel it is a no brainer to take the spell over the hp or the sp, so how is that different then the fighter taking the hp instead of the sp? The extra hp is the obvious choice for a front line character (at least from a power gaming stand point and I think that is what we are all looking at). How much different is the extra spell for a sorcerer really?
The one thing I keep seeing is that people feel it is a no brainer to take the spell over the hp or the sp, so how is that different then the fighter taking the hp instead of the sp? The extra hp is the obvious choice for a front line character (at least from a power gaming stand point and I think that is what we are all looking at). How much different is the extra spell for a sorcerer really?
Because spell>>>>>>>hp. For a fighter Hp>>>Skill point, but they don't get any other options. If a fighter got a feat instead of a skill or hp then THAT would be a no brainer.
For the record, != means the same thing. You'll see me use that instead because that's how it's written in C++, and I don't want to get in the habit of writing "does not equal" any other way.Thank ya, been wondering about that one.
=/= means "does not equal."
Additionally, you might also see <> as not equal. So basically,
=/=
!=
<>
all mean, doesn't equal.
I've seen some people shorthand 'approximately equal to' as ~~, but only rarely.
I was actually considering doing the same thing. Aasimar sorceror with the Celestial bloodline. Sounds like fun times to me.
Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.
I think an Aasimar sorcerer with an Infernal bloodline sounds more fun. :)
On the other side, I could also enjoy a Tiefling with a Celestial bloodline. :) I know, cha penalty, so, LOTS of RP potential, and that Cha penalty can get overcome many ways.
I was actually considering doing the same thing. Aasimar sorceror with the Celestial bloodline. Sounds like fun times to me.
Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.
I think an Aasimar sorcerer with an Infernal bloodline sounds more fun. :)
On the other side, I could also enjoy a Tiefling with a Celestial bloodline. :) I know, cha penalty, so, LOTS of RP potential, and that Cha penalty can get overcome many ways.
I had a player who chose to play an aasimar sorc with the undead bloodline. Was fun. Basically he had a supernatural disease that would slowly kill him and then turn him into an undead.
For the record, != means the same thing. You'll see me use that instead because that's how it's written in C++, and I don't want to get in the habit of writing "does not equal" any other way.Thank ya, been wondering about that one.
=/= means "does not equal."
Ah also cool, this I also did not know.
The one thing I keep seeing is that people feel it is a no brainer to take the spell over the hp or the sp, so how is that different then the fighter taking the hp instead of the sp? The extra hp is the obvious choice for a front line character (at least from a power gaming stand point and I think that is what we are all looking at). How much different is the extra spell for a sorcerer really?
It is a no-brainer to take the HP? Not for the characters I've seen so far...
I had a player who chose to play an aasimar sorc with the undead bloodline. Was fun. Basically he had a supernatural disease that would slowly kill him and then turn him into an undead.
That is a great concept.
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Because spell>>>>>>>hp. For a fighter Hp>>>Skill point, but they don't get any other options. If a fighter got a feat instead of a skill or hp then THAT would be a no brainer.
I strongly disagree with this. Especially the fighter hp>sp. They already have lots of hp, so taking sp allows them to diversify some and do more in non-combat situations. Just like a rogue would almost always have hp>sp, since they have so many skill points to start with. The high HD, low skill point classes often find skill points far more attractive.