Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #1

Have you never heard about adjusting the challenges to fit the characters?

This. /thread

Have you never heard about adjusting the challenges to fit the characters?

Heard of it. not my cup of tea. I present the world, it's up to the players to choose where to go and what challenges to face. If the go to the frost giant lair at level one, the frost giants don't spontaneously morph into goblins.

Having more options to use does not make a class broken if they still only have the same number of usable options per round. Otherwise, the Mystic Theurge would be an overpowered class... and not the somewhat underpowered class it is in reality.

I think the real worry in a change like this isn't overall power. The versatility is good but it's a broadening kind of change, not a spike. For me, and for general game design, it's a question of one strategy dominating another. You want to avoid that as much as possible in game design.

I agree that for any individual level, taking the spell is a better choice than taking a single hit point. A player following a short-sighted strategy of always taking the next big benefit would, given the two choices, take the spell. But over the long term, I'm not sure that's always the best strategy. The payoffs look different as you are able to invest more levels in hit points than a single one. Is that enough to keep always taking a spell from being a truly dominating strategy? It's a close call but I think it is.

Tim Statler wrote:

Have you never heard about adjusting the challenges to fit the characters?

Heard of it. not my cup of tea. I present the world, it's up to the players to choose where to go and what challenges to face. If the go to the frost giant lair at level one, the frost giants don't spontaneously morph into goblins.

But are you upset when they go into the goblin lair and turn them into paste is the question. 'Adjusting challenges' does not mean 'always level appropriate'. It means 'making sure the encounters are where you want them for the power level you've given the players'.

JRR wrote:

Tim Statler wrote:

Have you never heard about adjusting the challenges to fit the characters?

Heard of it. not my cup of tea. I present the world, it's up to the players to choose where to go and what challenges to face. If the go to the frost giant lair at level one, the frost giants don't spontaneously morph into goblins.

But are you upset when they go into the goblin lair and turn them into paste is the question. 'Adjusting challenges' does not mean 'always level appropriate'. It means 'making sure the encounters are where you want them for the power level you've given the players'.

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one, I might be concerned, but I'd not go pumping hit points onto the goblins just to make it tougher. They'll eventually grow tired and seek out bigger challenges.

Also, I design the world without any idea of my player's stats or race/class. The denizens of the world will react to them just as they react to the world. That's what makes dming fun imo.

Anyway, this should probably be another thread, back to b$$$%ing about the preview!

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one, I might be concerned, but I'd not go pumping hit points onto the goblins just to make it tougher. They'll eventually grow tired and seek out bigger challenges. !

"Man, only 4 XP for these chumps! Let's go find something worth fighting!" :)

Agree with Sean as well. There are so many more interesting words to use.

+1. Bulldoze, eviscerate, defenestrate (my favourite). But the whole "rape" thing is getting old fast.

I personally like "Kill to death."
It's short, easy, and ironic.

I kill you 'til your DEAD! And that's worse.

I agree with Sean.

Ken

+1.

If you think rape is an acceptable word for military success, you've obviously never known someone who's been raped. Also, your players should be offended that you are essentially accusing them of being rapists, if only metaphorically.

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

+1

Not cool; not clever.

+1. Bulldoze, eviscerate, defenestrate (my favourite).

Defenestrate means throwing out of a window. Now if you're throwing the goblins out of a window to kill them, then I agree, that it's a great word. I like decimate, which has evolved beyond the original meaning of killing 10%.

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

I wholeheartedly agree. To the extent that if I see the word "rape" used in this manner again, I'll be suppressing the post. We don't need to be that part of the internet where "rape" = "win."

Thanks.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

I wholeheartedly agree. To the extent that if I see the word "rape" used in this manner again, I'll be suppressing the post. We don't need to be that part of the internet where "rape" = "win."

Thanks.

Thank you! I get sick of seeing that too, it's disrespectful.

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

+1

Very poor and disappointing choice of words. There is such a thing as a vocabulary, you know.

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

From Wiktionary:

#2 is the usage I've always used. I was raised by ecologists and conservationists and it was a relatively common to hear around the house. While I understand in the modern vernacular it has a very specific connotation (unlawful carnal knowledge) the etymology of the term reveals its meaning. To sieze with force.

I'd also like to remind everyone that we play a game replete with murder, pagain gods, devil worship, and theft which rewards us at every turn for doing these heinous things to our fellow sentient lifeforms. I may be in the minority but I feel murder is far more objectionable than rape, and imagining it is the de facto basis of our hobby.

And while I agree with Sean wholeheartedly, lets get this back on topic, that is, if there is any topic left to discuss.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

MOAR PREVIEWS ... GIEB ! ... NERDRAGEEE !

MOAR PREVIEWS ... GIEB ! ... NERDRAGEEE !

Soon.. oh yes.. soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer paging through Chapter 2 of the APG
Paizo Publishing

Nerdrage Ooze wrote:

MOAR PREVIEWS ... GIEB ! ... NERDRAGEEE !

Soon.. oh yes.. soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer paging through Chapter 2 of the APG
Paizo Publishing

You could always surprise everyone and give another preview before thursday!

I'd also like to remind everyone that we play a game replete with murder, pagain gods, devil worship, and theft which rewards us at every turn for doing these heinous things to our fellow sentient lifeforms. I may be in the minority but I feel murder is far more objectionable than rape, and imagining it is the de facto basis of our hobby.

What's so heinous about pagan gods?

What's so heinous about pagan gods?

Non traditional waaayyyysssssss!!!!

*Shakes fist at the moon*

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

JRR wrote:

Depends. If they consistently rape the goblins at level one...

I would really like to see this use of the word stop. Far too many MMO players use this term to mean "kill" or "kill so quickly I had no chance." It makes me uncomfortable, it makes most women gamers I know uncomfortable. Stop, please.

From Wiktionary: ** spoiler omitted **

#2 is the usage I've always used. I was raised by ecologists and conservationists and it was a relatively common to hear around the house. While I understand in the modern vernacular it has a very specific connotation (unlawful carnal knowledge) the etymology of the term reveals its meaning. To sieze with force.

I'd also like to remind everyone that we play a game replete with murder, pagain gods, devil worship, and theft which rewards us at every turn for doing these heinous things to our fellow sentient lifeforms. I may be in the minority but I feel murder is far more objectionable than rape, and imagining it is the de facto basis of our hobby.

Agreed. Like it or not the term has entered popular culture as a slang word meaning "to kick the s~&* out of." That's all I meant and I find it ludicrous that anyone could think otherwise. Keep the political correct bull crap out of my gaming, please.

Agreed. Like it or not the term has entered popular culture as a slang word meaning "to kick the s#@~ out of." That's all I meant and I find it ludicrous that anyone could think otherwise. Keep the political correct bull crap out of my gaming, please.

Asking someone not to be an insensitive jerk is not political BS.

meatrace wrote:

I'd also like to remind everyone that we play a game replete with murder, pagain gods, devil worship, and theft which rewards us at every turn for doing these heinous things to our fellow sentient lifeforms. I may be in the minority but I feel murder is far more objectionable than rape, and imagining it is the de facto basis of our hobby.

What's so heinous about pagan gods?

I have no problem with it, but then I'm an atheist. I have no particular quarrel with eating babies either (since I like a good veal ommelette from time to time) I'm just pointing out things most people find distasteful.

But I made the only point I wanted to, I think we should respect Teh Buhlman's wishes and get back on topic.

JRR wrote:

Agreed. Like it or not the term has entered popular culture as a slang word meaning "to kick the s#@~ out of." That's all I meant and I find it ludicrous that anyone could think otherwise. Keep the political correct bull crap out of my gaming, please.

Asking someone not to be an insensitive jerk is not political BS.

There are a million game terms I could whine about. I don't see what is so insensitive about using a valid word to describe the action it is meant to, i.e. pillaging and despoiling. I think it's culturally insensitive to have Djinn as a monster type when their existence is islamic doctrine. Or angels for that matter. Telling someone not to use a word is censorship, but you can feel however you wish to feel about that person.

I was watching a baseball game the other day, Albert Pujols hit a homerun and the announcer made the comment that Pujols "murdered" the ball. How dare he? Doesn't he realize how many people are offended by that? They should fire him immediately.

There are a million game terms I could whine about. I don't see what is so insensitive about using a valid word to describe the action it is meant to, i.e. pillaging and despoiling the countryside.

It wasn't specifically about despoiling the countryside as much as despoiling creatures. Whether you believe that adds ambiguity about exactly what is being done to the goblins or not, the people running the forums have asked that the word not be used in that context. That's enough.

People who don't understand why the casual use of the word "rape" might cause some folks (in this case, us board moderators) to react poorly are the exact kind of people who shouldn't be using words like "rape" in casual conversation in the first place.

The english language has a LOT of words. The ones you use on these boards are the only way we have to create mental pictures of you, so it's probably a good idea to keep in mind what you're writing.

This isn't a case of censorship any more than it is akin to a case of "please don't use foul language at the public park."

If you're going to post on these boards, please follow the (actually quite few) rules and code of conduct is all we're asking.

I'd like to formerly request that the word "the" not be used on these forums. It offends me.

This is not the time or place for snark, unfortunately.

I'd like to formerly request that the word "the" not be used on these forums. It offends me.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer paging through Chapter 2 of the APG
Paizo Publishing

Yeah, like we believe you've got a copy. What are you going to do? Take a picture of a double page spread from the wizard spell section and post it on the site?

(Look he might be drunk. It could work...)

I'd like to formerly request that the word "the" not be used on these forums. It offends me.

/facepalm

There's a fine line between being The Sarcastic One and the trashcan.

Agreed. Like it or not the term has entered popular culture as a slang word meaning "to kick the s*!~ out of." That's all I meant and I find it ludicrous that anyone could think otherwise. Keep the political correct bull crap out of my gaming, please.

It it so hard to accept that when someone says, "hey, this word is often used in a very negative context, and that bothers me, even if you're using a different meaning of it, would you not use it that way, particularly here in this forum where you are a guest?" that you don't use that word? Are there NO other words in your vocabulary that you could use instead of that word?

If I were having dinner at your house, and I lit up a cigarette, and you asked me to extinguish it because the smoke irritated you, you'd expect that I'd extinguish it, yes? Would that be "political correct bull crap," or would that be common courtesy?

First off, I haven't used the word at all since you brought it to my attention that it crawled out of your computer screen and kicked your dog. I have merely replied to the "discussion" on the "discussion forums" regarding the etymology of said word.

First off, I haven't used the word at all since you brought it to my attention that it crawled out of your computer screen and kicked your dog. I have merely replied to the "discussion" on the "discussion forums" regarding the etymology of said word.

Tantrum much? Someone asks you play nice and you throw a hissy-fit and belittle them for their opinion.

It it so hard to accept that when someone says, "hey, this word is often used in a very negative context, and that bothers me, even if you're using a different meaning of it, would you not use it that way, particularly here in this forum where you are a guest?" that you don't use that word? Are there NO other words in your vocabulary that you could use instead of that word?

If I were having dinner at your house, and I lit up a cigarette, and you asked me to extinguish it because the smoke irritated you, you'd expect that I'd extinguish it, yes? Would that be "political correct bull crap," or would that be common courtesy?

Not to mention that there are plenty of other words that have been slang words in popular culture that I very much doubt any of those defending this use of "rape" would say/type/etc.

I can think of a few "slang words" referring to black people (which can be one itself, to some - I don't use African American because there are people that exist outside America too, despite what many media outlets like us to think), to Asians, to...well, basically any minority. Thankfully, most of those words have been mostly phased out of common speech...let's get rape (used in this manner anyway) phased out too, mmkay?

This is a marker post—the conversation about word use is done. Any off-topic posts below this marker that aren't about the player's guide preview get suppressed/deleted.

(Since I'd rather do that than lock the thread! :-) )

Jason did you get the $50 I slipped you for the bonus racial trait - Dwarves are Awesome with Awesome sauce and a side dish of Awesome. With the text Chuck Norris learned his Awesomeness from the Dwarves.

Because I was highly disappointed when you didn’t add the text to the elvan racial description that I had suggested for the Core rule book.

Elves:

Elves are tree hugging, commies, who will nationalise your health care system, make you wear leg warmers and force you to participate in interpretive dance and bad street theatre.

Edit:

This is a marker post—the conversation about word use is done. Any off-topic posts below this marker that aren't about the player's guide preview get suppressed/deleted.

(Since I'd rather do that than lock the thread! :-) )

Oh dear, bye bye post :-)

Excellent. Right. Where were we?

Ah yes, my attempt at getting Jason to divulge some goodies from the aforementioned APG.

*Holds breath*.

(**Probably dies**).

Oh dear, bye bye post :-)

No worries! Your post was comedic and goofy (and hateful against elves!) but still more or less on topic.

I'm looking forward to the new Smurf race that I am sure is in the APG.

This is a marker post—the conversation about word use is done. Any off-topic posts below this marker that aren't about the player's guide preview get suppressed/deleted.

Dammit. I need to learn to type faster. I'm going to be late to work for nothing, now.

Oh, well. Bring on the APG previews. We want more! :)

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Oh dear, bye bye post :-)

No worries! Your post was comedic and goofy (and hateful against elves!) but still more or less on topic.

Serious me for the moment.

I am wondering if we could see more race stuff in the previews. I am getting the impression that the racial traits are going to save everybody from a bazillion race splat books. I hope that there are some environmental race traits - so you can have ice/desert/mountain/plains/forest adaptations.

I also love that not everybody within the same race will have that cookie cutter "template" to begin with.

I am looking forward to the book and the first preview has not worried me at all - very much the opposite.

Traits for the win. They're probably the most exciting set of customisation options since the Greyhawk Regional Feats (Greyhawk Method with its opening up of Wizard bonus feats was very cool).

I am looking forward to the book and the first preview has not worried me at all - very much the opposite.

Likewise. I can't wait to see more. I'm especially excited about some of the alternate class feature stuff, though. I'm a sucker for ACFs, or, well, pretty much any sort of customization stuff.

I'm looking forward to the new Smurf race that I am sure is in the APG.

How smurftacular!