Regnar will purchase 1 rope (50') and iron spikes (12). It usually costs 2 gp, don't know if I can assume these prices for this purchase.
If I see Ralina going to her buys I ask if we have money for a mirror -> useful for looking around corners in a cave
Regnar will purchase 1 rope (50') and iron spikes (12). It usually costs 2 gp, don't know if I can assume these prices for this purchase.
If I see Ralina going to her buys I ask if we have money for a mirror -> useful for looking around corners in a cave
We can assume these prices - Adventuring Gear, so 2gp sounds about right.
Please remember to also add the weight, and verify your Encumbrance ;)
Obermind: Just to clarify, we are using the Detailed Encumbrance rules? Is that correct. So for Ralina, her total weight in coins carried is 180. Chainmail (40), Warhammer(30), Dagger(10), Sling(20), plus 80 for the rest of her adventuring gear. That puts her under 400 coins so full movement.
Obermind: Just to clarify, we are using the Detailed Encumbrance rules? Is that correct. So for Ralina, her total weight in coins carried is 180. Chainmail (40), Warhammer(30), Dagger(10), Sling(20), plus 80 for the rest of her adventuring gear. That puts her under 400 coins so full movement.
Not really, unfortunately :P
Chainmail weighs 400cn
Warhammer 30cn
Dagger 10cn
Sling 20cn
Gear 80cn
Total = 540cn, which means Movement Rate 90’ (30’)
By the way, we are taking our time with finding hirelings and so forth, but I am also perfectly fine if you guys just want me to do some rolls, give you a list of who is available, their approximate skills and capabilities, and how much they 'cost' per day, and then you pick one.
Either way works for me, just let me know your preference :)
Total = 540cn, which means Movement Rate 90’ (30’)
Ha! So it is. I must've looked at the chainmail number three times and only saw the 40 not the 400 next to it. Will update my sheet in a moment, although my move was already set at 30' so no real change there.
I'm happy to move on from the hirelings/purchasing if people want to push things forward. Either way works fine for me.
I was under the impression that metal armor was its own weight threshold (regardless of other encumbrance/items) which put you at 60’ round…
Let me know what you plan to do next, gang.
I'm ready to move on, if others are. Meeting Finnin and hitting the road for the Caves early so we have as much daylight as possible.
Seems Regnar is taking a bath…
Amhal is ready to go, and not exactly eager to spend another night (and thus part of his remaining gold piece) in the Keep. But if we *are* loitering for a few hours, Amhal will proceed to just outside the Keep gates and watch who comes in and who leaves.
Dobin is also ready to move out
A wizard18/rogue2!!!
yeh!! Now yes, we are ready to go!! :-)
Now for our game.
Ralina, did you by the mirror I suggested?
Now for our game.
Ralina, did you by the mirror I suggested?
I already have one. :)
I think I forgot that you're female :)
Gang, anything against me designating a 'caller' every once in a while? I think it might speed things up.
Once actions need to be summarized, I will call out one of you to detail how the group proceeds. Sounds acceptable?
We could also have a fixed one if you prefer. Or none at all. Let me know.
I’m not against a Caller concept. We can see how it goes…
Also, we should wait for Daniel/Dobin. The forums are acting weird so he may not know there are new posts… I saw in my Campaign tab the other day that this game had (1 new). But when I got here there were easily four or five new posts…
Yep good point, I will give Dobin some time to post.
Guys, just a curiosity of mine. Can you tell me who you are?
@Drusilla/Critz: you can see below in the How to for at your text box below that you can make text smaller by using (smaller) and (/smaller) just with [] instead of (). Same as with (i) and (/i) being italics and (b) and (/b).
Guys, just a curiosity of mine. Can you tell me who you are?
Do you mean who I am as a player?
I'll do it to begin this combat, but to be honest, I have neither the time or inclination to track everyone's equipment and double check what everyone is planning to do going forward.
Based on what everyone has written here is the plan:
Ralina and Finnin are 15' outside of the cave in/near whatever cover is available. Regnar and Amhal are on the left side of the cave (Regnar now has Amhal's shield and is in front). Drusilla and Dobin on are the right side of the cave entrance. (Drusilla in the lead, using Dobin's shield.)
Ralina will light the lantern, Finnin will use her mirror to illuminate the interior of the cave as best as possible.
If no enemies immediately spotted, then the four enter the cave led by those with darkvision. Amhal has a torch ready to light once inside or just before he enters (player's choice, I would assume.). Ralina will follow with the lantern.
If there are enemies, then Finnin will use the mirror/light to try and blind them while everyone else engages (ranged attacks first, then move into melee to avoid penalties for hitting allies.)
That is fair enough, Ralina. Coincidentally I feel exactly the same regarding my own time and inclination.
You are supposed to come up with a plan, and not simply each of you throw me tidbits of what you want to do or what you think the plan is, and dump it on me to guess and adjudicate as best as I can, hopefully in agreement with all your individual perspectives.
Instead, I think the ‘load’ should be shared among all - and settling on what the plan is, and letting the DM know is what you are supposed to do as players.
Hopefully we can come to some sort of balanced agreement on this.
I like this plan. Illuminate, if none are spotted we continue in
GMO - which cave has Regnar chosen for us on the map?
@Drusilla/Critz: you can see below in the “How to format your text” spoiler box below that you can make text smaller by using (smaller) and (/smaller) just with [] instead of (). Same as with (i) and (/i) being italics and (b) and (/b) being bold
Ouch. Have fixed that post. Was very late at night. I think…
GMO - which cave has Regnar chosen for us on the map?
First one to the South. I will mark it with an arrow when I am at my PC.
@GMO - just a question on nomenclature - where you are using the term “Turn” do you mean a “Turn of 10 minutes” as opposed to a “Round of 60 seconds”, or just the next…turn? From memory and a torch lasts 6 Turns, so…about an hour…
Yeah I need to amend that - you are right.
- When you first entered the caves we were using Turns of ten minutes.
- When you heard the noises and all the stress started we moved into Rounds of 60 seconds. I should have changed it. Will do so going forward.
So, I believe current light sources timekeeping will be:
Amhal Pitt Torch
1turn + 3 rounds (going into round 4) spent out of 6 turns
Ralina's lantern
2 turns + 3 rounds (going into round 4) spent out of 24 turns
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By the way, I am finding sticking into Turns and Rounds during this exploration (in spite of my earlier mess up) helps keep things organized. I like it.
@Critzible: I’m having trouble following Drusilla’s last comment to Regnar. He doesn’t have a light, how is he going to make a blinding flash?
More seeing if he agrees as she assumes he has dealt with Goblins before. A very Haughty Elf attitude
@GMO - is it dark outside now?
@All: I thought it was already darkening when we entered the ravine, so Amhal is thinking Drusilla would be good as a lookout outside, and Regnar can assist with being a fellow bulwark inside…
@GMO - is it dark outside now?
Not yet, but getting there soon.
I am good with that
@GMO - just a few questions for clarification now that we are getting to the…fun part!
* How big are the squares on the tactical map? There seem to be three party members located in a square.
* I am unclear on my movement speed. I read somewhere that metal armor makes a character encumbered regardless of their encumbrance. Is that not the case?
* Currently my speed is 60’ or 20’ in combat. If I am unaware there is combat, do I move faster? ;) Seriously though, as we are in Encounter, and have rolled initiative, I guess I move 20 feet. How many squares is that?
* If you are moving without having seen the opponent your allies have seen, can you change/alter your trajectory once you would realistically have seen the foe? It kind of interacts oddly with the “Movement, then Melee” ordering of OSR combat. Currently, I’m a little unclear on whether Amhal even knows there is a tangible threat. He’s just going to head back to the entrance as planned…
Let me get to those questions:
- Squares are 10 feet (I think I had the info on the previous mapping I was using but that was gone when I changed :P);
- Regarding encumbrance (details here) - we are using detailed encumbrance. So your movement is determined by the amount of cn you are carrying (more below);
- We are using a simplified approach to Combat. If it starts in a situation like this, you are all aware of it and we move to Combat Rounds. Maybe it is relevant to say in a Combat Round you can also Run, which in your case would allow you to move at 60' instead of 20' in a round. But when you run, you can do nothing else apart from running.
- Again, we are using a simple approach. You are aware of what is in the map, and can act accordingly. So you can act as if you know exactly where the opponent is. If he is an opponent or not, that is another thing - Amhal would not know ;)
Hope these make sense?
Ah, ok, Amhal is carrying 540 coins, so can move 90’ or 30’ in combat.
- We are using a simplified approach to Combat. If it starts in a situation like this, you are all aware of it and we move to Combat Rounds. Maybe it is relevant to say in a Combat Round you can also Run, which in your case would allow you to move at 60' instead of 20' in a round. But when you run, you can do nothing else apart from running.
Does this mean that you can do no melee or spellcasting, because you have opted to essentially do a “full round action” of running?
- Again, we are using a simple approach. You are aware of what is in the map, and can act accordingly. So you can act as if you know exactly where the opponent is. If he is an opponent or not, that is another thing - Amhal would not know ;)Hope these make sense?
Sure. In a sense it is a meta approach, which I am fine with. One small further clarification - do you mean “Amhal is aware that there is an ogre, but not whether the ogre is an opponent” OR that “OSW the player is aware there is an ogre, but Amhal is not, but we are still in Combat rounds so OSW can move Amhal accordingly”?
Does this mean that you can do no melee or spellcasting, because you have opted to essentially do a “full round action” of running?
Correct.
One small further clarification - do you mean “Amhal is aware that there is an ogre, but not whether the ogre is an opponent” OR that “OSW the player is aware there is an ogre, but Amhal is not, but we are still in Combat rounds so OSW can move Amhal accordingly”?
The first one.
Ralina offers a quick preyer to Petra, then angles her mirror to reflect its bright light into the ogre's eyes. The acolyte does her best to keep the glaring light focused on the monster, adjusting the mirror to match its moves in order to keep it blinded and distracted.
Hey Ralina, just so we are aligned. I don't think guile should, in most cases, be allowed to reproduce the effect of a spell. So if your action is successful (meaning you are actually able to shine the reflection from the lantern effectively in his eyes, and the Ogre fails to 'resist' your attempt), I will rule he will have a -1 to hit. Sounds appropriate?
To adjudicate this, I will probably use a simple d6 roll, with a 1 (or maybe 2, still pondering) in 6 chance of success. This leaves us room for further modifiers if you ever decide to improve on such a tactic in the future.
Ralina offers a quick preyer to Petra, then angles her mirror to reflect its bright light into the ogre's eyes. The acolyte does her best to keep the glaring light focused on the monster, adjusting the mirror to match its moves in order to keep it blinded and distracted.Hey Ralina, just so we are aligned. I don't think guile should, in most cases, be allowed to reproduce the effect of a spell. So if your action is successful (meaning you are actually able to shine the reflection from the lantern effectively in his eyes, and the Ogre fails to 'resist' your attempt), I will rule he will have a -1 to hit. Sounds appropriate?
To adjudicate this, I will probably use a simple d6 roll, with a 1 (or maybe 2, still pondering) in 6 chance of success. This leaves us room for further modifiers if you ever decide to improve on such a tactic in the future.
Not sure I agree with all of this. I assume we are talking about 'recreating' the Blinding effect in the 1st level Light spell. Until I just now looked it up, I didn't even know that was part of the spell. That said, I don't think my action is a straight up 'recreation' of that effect. First, there is no lasting duration, I have to give up my action every round in order to attempt to continue the effect. With the spell, it's one save and done for the full duration/effect of the spell. Second, I'm fine with a negative modifier to attack vs complete lasting blindness, I was kind of assuming that would be the case, but this certainly differs from the spell where it is full blindness and subject cannot attack. But with only a -1 modifier, I think the chance for success should be at least 3 in 6. I'm unsure if the enemy also gets a Save on top of the chance of success, but your suggestion reads that would be the case. So, right now I'm seeing a tiny chance to 'hit' at 1:6 plus he gets a chance to Save and at the end the effect is only a -1 to hit. With all of that, there is no point. I'm better off just using my sling or charging in and swinging with my hammer vs. trying to find an alternative way to potentially help the whole party.
Finally, I don't totally understand the issue with trying to 'recreate' some spell effects with mundane means. Does that mean sand in the eyes, is nearly impossible because that can 'blind' a person as well? How about a dwarf knocking out the only lamp in a dark room or cave filled with human enemies? That's recreating the Darkness spell. I would assume a molotov cocktail (similar to Fireball?) might not be as damaging and would likely require a hit or a save roll but will there be other stipulations because it's recreating a spell? I realize you said 'in most cases' but where's the line? I guess in the end I just don't think an oversized, two-handed 'flashlight' or any of the other mundane 'recreated spell effects' that might typically come up are going to be way overpowered or take the spotlight away from any Wizard or other caster if/when they get past 3rd or 4th level.
I understand your perspective. It is simply different than mine.
I think it is extremely hard to blind someone with the reflex from a mirror 20’ away, using a lantern (quite different from a flashlight, impossible to get a ‘beam’, much less intense even if compared to sunlight, etc, etc.), while there is still light (getting dark but it is not night yet), so on and so forth. Even temporarily.
So in my book, any form of blindness in these situations is out of the picture. There is room for improving that 1in6 chance - a creature susceptible to light? Using sunlight? Or another strong source of light? Options abound.
Also the 1in6 adjudicates the whole situation, including the chance the ogre ‘resists’ or ‘is not affected’, etc. I was not planning any sort of ‘to-hit’ or ‘save’ rolls. To keep it simple. 1 in 6 chance for the plan to succeed. Done. Like I said, you can work on improving those odds. Perhaps learning from this experience.
I am very strongly in favor of playing ‘smart’, and creative solutions which usetheir environment. But I am not in the ‘everything is possible’ field, if that makes sense. Trip the ogre, soak the ground with oil, light him on fire, drop stones from the ravine above on his head, bribe him, run away and draw him to an ambush, you name it. Blinding him with a flame from an oil lantern reflected off a crappy mirror. Meeeeh…. That is a 1in6 for me.
Hope that clears it somewhat?
Heh. Amhal is totally going to try to set him on fire with his torch. He’s wearing furs after all. And this was my plan well before anyone mentioned it.
The first time I played 5th edition, when it was still a playtest, my Monk chose to set the Hill Giant Steading on fire. So I have form…but sadly, she couldn’t stop her companions from endlessly not taking advice about full frontal assaults against giants in mixed groups who outnumbered them 2 or even 3 to 1 and they all…died.
One of the weirdest things about BECMI and ADnD for me personally as a player has been GMs completely unable to grok…grappling and tackling. Once I tried it and after rolling “ok” I apparently tumbled inneffectually into a foe’s armor; in another game the DM just ruled I fell over - that was an honestly bad roll, but I do wonder what might have happened to his brain had I succeeded. Essentially I find most combats fairly boring if they are just straight exchanges of melee blows, and trying to be narratively interesting or “cinematic” is one way to make the game more interesting. Totally not going to try to tackle “Mungo the Ogre” or trip him with ropes like an Ewok vs an AT-ST or, more appropriately an AT-AT.
As for guile, I’m all for mundane characters using their wits to create effects, regardless of whether the effects are replicated by spells. I don’t like magic and I hate wizards, and I don’t think any spell does anything out of the ordinary that a…sufficiently advanced… mechanism could also produce. If you do, name…263 and I’ll be satisfied.
But it definitely needs to be character guile as opposed to player guile - seems to me Ralina is curious and inventive. As long as she doesn’t try to create a thermonuclear warhead with iron rations, a piton, 50’ tope and a 10’ pole I’m ok.
Having said all that, I do agree that the unfocused lantern flame may not…project that well from a mirror. I don’t like magic think it would be annoying to look at, but there’s no particular reason the ogre need look in it’s direction or be fazed by it unless it is susceptible to bright lights. I’n not sure if the ambient daylight matters - I’ve been blinded by glints off vehicles in broad daylight.
If you do that we can try to shatter the lantern on him and then light it up. Interesting.
I have seen a lot of versions for this, since apparently BX does not make provision for it. We will will go with something like:
- dropping a weapon/held item/shield: free
- drawing a weapon from an accessible sheath: 1/2 round, but free if combined with an attack (so you can move and do this)
- readying a weapon that is not sheathed (at your back, like a bow, or 2-handed weapon): 1/2 round
- stowing a weapon (sheath or otherwise): 1/2 round
- drawing a shield: 1/2 round
Let's try it out and see how it fits.
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In your particular case, you can do a Fighting withdrawal, and shoot the crossbow.
Please take into consideration the procedure for Firing into Melee (straight out of 2e :D):
Missile weapons are intended mainly as long-range weapons. Ideally, they are used before the opponents reach your line. However, ideal situations are all too rare, and characters often discover that the only effective way to attack is to shoot arrows (or whatever) at an enemy already in melee combat with their companions. While possible, and certainly allowed, this is a risky proposition.
When missiles are fired into a melee, the DM counts the number of figures in the immediate area of the intended target. Each Medium figure counts as 1. Small (S) figures count as 1⁄2, Large as 2, Huge as 4, and Gargantuan as 6. The total value is compared to the value of each character or creature in the target melee. Using this ratio, the DM rolls a die to determine who (or what) will be the target of the shot.
Case in point Amhal (man-size, or 1 point) and Regnar (also man-size, or 1 point) are fighting an Ogre (size L, 2 points), while Dobin fires a crossbow at the ogre. The total value of all possible targets is 4 (2+1+1). There’s a 1 in 4 chance that Amhal is the target; a 1 in 4 chance that Regnar is hit; and a 2 in 4 chance the shot hits the ogre. The DM could roll a 4-sided die to determine who gets hit, or he could reduce the ratios to a percentage (50% chance the ogre is hit, etc.) and roll percentile dice.
Weeeeeeeell..... I believe the original BX rules did not make any provision for this. Instead they simply stated the following for Movement (confirmed via OSE):
Outside of Melee
Movement rate: A character can move up to their encounter movement rate each round.
Maximum duration: Characters may move at this rate for at most 60 rounds.
In Melee
When in melee with a foe, only the following forms of movement are possible:
▶ Fighting withdrawal: The character moves backwards at up to half their encounter movement rate. There must be a clear path for this movement.
▶ Retreat: The character turns and flees from melee, moving up to their full encounter movement rate. This round: the character may not attack; the opponent gains a +2 bonus to all attacks against the character and ignores any AC bonus due to the character’s shield (if applicable).
After some digging around I found an iteration in the Rules Cyclopedia, which we will add here:
Characters rarely stand solidly in one place and fight without moving from one position. When a character attacks, we assume that he is maneuvering for position. To reflect this limited movement, a character can move up to 5 feet while he is fighting. Maneuvering in this way does not count as an action during the round.
Bottom line, you can 5', fighting withdrawal or retreat.
Correct!
Re missiles and melee:
I prefer that allies are available targets if you miss. Otherwise, what is your Target AC? If you roll a 1, it is Amhal’s AC of 5 (currently without shield); if you roll a 2 it is Regnar’s AC of 2 (currently using Amhal’s shield) and if you roll a 3 or 4 it is the Ogre’s AC. That seems a bit odd. Seems better to try to hit your target, then, if you miss, the DM randomly generates a target from among the melee-involved allies and foes. And they are automatically hit.
Personally I don’t like the “penalising firing into melee”. GMO may remember in a Greyhawk game we were in where I freaked out at PF1’s punishing “allies in melee provide cover to your foes” + “firing into melee is at -4” for a total of -8 to hit. There was just no point in attempting it. And much like PF2, PF1’s “answer” was “there are feats for that”.
So I’d really like it if we could just use the BECMI rules for firing into melee. I don’t believe there are any. ;)
Weeeeeeeell..... I believe the original BX rules did not make any provision for this. Instead they simply stated the following for Movement (confirmed via OSE):
Outside of Melee
Movement rate: A character can move up to their encounter movement rate each round.
Maximum duration: Characters may move at this rate for at most 60 rounds.In Melee
When in melee with a foe, only the following forms of movement are possible:
▶ Fighting withdrawal: The character moves backwards at up to half their encounter movement rate. There must be a clear path for this movement.
▶ Retreat: The character turns and flees from melee, moving up to their full encounter movement rate. This round: the character may not attack; the opponent gains a +2 bonus to all attacks against the character and ignores any AC bonus due to the character’s shield (if applicable).After some digging around I found an iteration in the Rules Cyclopedia, which we will add here:
Characters rarely stand solidly in one place and fight without moving from one position. When a character attacks, we assume that he is maneuvering for position. To reflect this limited movement, a character can move up to 5 feet while he is fighting. Maneuvering in this way does not count as an action during the round.Bottom line, you can 5', fighting withdrawal or retreat.
Oh. So the only reason it lists your “Melee Combat Speed” is *not* for moving in melee. It is for running away. Gotcha. Will clarify intent in Gameplay.
Re missiles and melee:
I prefer that allies are available targets if you miss. Otherwise, what is your Target AC? If you roll a 1, it is Amhal’s AC of 5 (currently without shield); if you roll a 2 it is Regnar’s AC of 2 (currently using Amhal’s shield) and if you roll a 3 or 4 it is the Ogre’s AC. That seems a bit odd. Seems better to try to hit your target, then, if you miss, the DM randomly generates a target from among the melee-involved allies and foes. And they are automatically hit.
Personally I don’t like the “penalising firing into melee”. GMO may remember in a Greyhawk game we were in where I freaked out at PF1’s punishing “allies in melee provide cover to your foes” + “firing into melee is at -4” for a total of -8 to hit. There was just no point in attempting it. And much like PF2, PF1’s “answer” was “there are feats for that”.
So I’d really like it if we could just use the BECMI rules for firing into melee. I don’t believe there are any. ;)
I do think there should be some penalties for firing into melee, so for now we will stick with what I put forth. There are other ways to capitalize on missile fire, and you should try to make the best use of them. The penalties also push players not to make one dimensional characters, they should have some versatility and find ways to be useful in many different situations, whether by carrying an extra weapon or by whatever other means they can find.
As for the target of the roll, it is irrelevant, right? You roll, I determine which target is randomly selected, then according to his/her AC it will either be a hit or not.
Was still a nice try invoking BECMI :D
But if we open that can of worms, then we will need to break out the cover rules, and I don't think you want that just yet.
And yes, I do remember that game with fondness :D