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Psych! I actually have a basic post ready for discussion now.
Welcome to the discussion thread! Some friendly reminders:
-If you're not going to be able to post for a few days, you can let me know here or by PM.
-If you have questions about what I mean by a gameplay post, quote me and post it here if it's too long a question for the gameplay thread.
-Have fun! I'm certainly going to. :)
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Tazo, good to see you - although I think Li Shin might be the one PC that Brother MacLaren has no obvious connection to (Nininox is a Caydenite, Alexandr has the axe, and Anastasia is from Andoran), I know you as a player from our E6 Red Hand of Doom.
I would note that despite the classes, when you look at how people intend to develop their characters, we are quite martial-heavy. Anastasia intends to be mostly a barbarian and Brother MacLaren is planning to be a melee cleric.
And this is a remarkably physically strong party, with three serious bruisers.
Brother MacLaren, Cleric of Cayden Cailean - has 19 Str plus Enlarge Person.
Alexandr Sergejevich Kerensky, Bloodrager - has 19 Str, 23 when raging.
Anastasia Armat, Alchemist - has 18 Str plus Enlarge Person. By level 3 can hit 30 (+6 mutagen, +2 enlarge, +4 rage).
Then you add a Dex-based martial and finally the sorcerer.
No rogue-type, no bard-type. But we will be very good at hitting things and moving heavy objects.
Where are we on key skills? I think we might be lacking in some of the Knowledges. Brother MacLaren will keep Sense Motive maxed, and maybe Diplomacy, though he doesn't have a lot of skill points as a cleric. Obviously we lack Disable Device.
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Hey guys, glad to join the party!
If we keep this group together long term, I’m happy with Nox taking a bunch of buffing spells to help our melee crew feasting!
As far as skills, I’ve got Know. Arcana covered, as well as Know. history. I’ve got a smidge of Know. Geography as one of my background skills. I also have a bunch of languages known. Finally, I’ve got a decent UMD score for emergency cases.
My bloodline gives me Know. planes as a class skill so I’ll add some ranks to it as we advance.
Hello there, here I am! Happy to play with all of you!
I am gonna put up a party wide skill list for future reference.
In terms of last minute adjustments:
I have 8 in diplomacy and intimidate, I could get another 8 in bluff if I switch out "skilled" for "fey magic" and add bluff and stealth as class skills. Not that I get much use out of the favored terrain most likely, my char is irriseni, it would make no narrative sense for him to have jungle :), Aquatic may be fine on account of Irrisen having plenty of rivers. Alexandrs black blood may also be coming from a Rusalka.
This would enable me to stealth along (if about 30 feet behind) with the stealthier parts of the party (Current stealth at level 1 would be 3 due to ACP, but as it is only low due to ACP, it should increase quickly).
Having the beatstick 30 feet behind them, rather then several turns, in my experience greatly increases scout survivability.
One skill point less per level, but 6+2 background is still plenty imho.
I believe we will be mostly fine knowledge wise. I do have spellcraft and arcana as class skills, although I may not pick them up at level 1.
My background skills will probably be perform dance or perform sing (he will totally do a Kasachok like dance after a hard fight) and presumable knowledge engineering(fits with his military background).
Oh, combat routine as far as Alexandr is concerned:
1: He will start fights with a bardiche out, using his combat reflexes to do AoOs even if flat footed.
2: One melee is joined, drop Bardiche, draw Butchering axe as a move action, rage up and make whatever melees him reconsider its life choice.
3: If enemy is unwilling to go for it, free action hold bardiche in left hand, draw throwing axe as move action, hit someone in the face with it for relatively significant 1d6+4 and a +4 to hit. Free action to hold Bardiche in 2 hands again. He wont benefit from brace of course, but why say no to free damage?
His big power spike is level 4.
Level 4ish, he aims to grab Long arm as a spell (+5 reach) and use the Black Blood bloodline power (he has black blood and aquatic and is mixed blood) for another 5 reach. If some friendly person also enlarges him (he could enlarge himself, but there are 3 really strong personal level 1 spells for bloodragers, Shield, Long Arm and Cheetah sprint whom I would prefer to prioritize), this gives him another 5 reach and moves his butchering axe to 4D6 dice, giving him 20 foot reach with his butchering axe, or 25 foot reach with his bardiche, while still having 3 AoOs per turn.
After he has Cheetah sprint (level 4 or 5) he can also charge or run 350 feet per turn. Can also be used as an get the hell out of here option, and I can probably justify running past a party member shouting "grab hold of me" because I think I have the STR to carry Nox + 1 other character while raging and running, provided they are holding on to me and not me holding them.
Hello there, here I am! Happy to play with all of you!
I am gonna put up a party wide skill list for future reference.
In terms of last minute adjustments:
I have 8 in diplomacy and intimidate, I could get another 8 in bluff if I switch out "skilled" for "fey magic" and add bluff and stealth as class skills. Not that I get much use out of the favored terrain most likely, my char is irriseni, it would make no narrative sense for him to have jungle :), Aquatic may be fine on account of Irrisen having plenty of rivers. Alexandrs black blood may also be coming from a Rusalka.
This would enable me to stealth along (if about 30 feet behind) with the stealthier parts of the party (Current stealth at level 1 would be 3 due to ACP, but as it is only low due to ACP, it should increase quickly).
Having the beatstick 30 feet behind them, rather then several turns, in my experience greatly increases scout survivability.One skill point less per level, but 6+2 background is still plenty imho.
I believe we will be mostly fine knowledge wise. I do have spellcraft and arcana as class skills, although I may not pick them up at level 1.
My background skills will probably be perform dance or perform sing (he will totally do a Kasachok like dance after a hard fight) and presumable knowledge engineering(fits with his military background).
See you found the discussion thread. Ignore the PM I sent you a minute ago!
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Preliminary skill list (assuming I dont go into bluff and stealth via fey magic instead of skilled). BoP=Bunch of people.
I apologize for the barely readible format.
All skills without ACP factored in.
Skill First value Second value
Acrobatics Li Shin 9 Alexandr 8
Appraise Anastasia 6 BoP 2
Bluff Li Shin 6 Alexandr 4
Climb Alexandr 8 Li Shin 6
Craft Anastasia 6
Diplomacy Alexandr 8 Li Shin 6
Disable Device nobody
Disguise nobody
Escape Artist nobody
Fly nobody
Handle Animal nobody
Heal nobody yet
Intimidate Alexandr 8 Nox 3
K. (arc) Nox 6 Bop 2
K. (dun) Nox 3
K. (eng) Alexandr 3 Nox 3
K. (geography) Li Shin 6 Nox 3
K. (history) Nox 9 Bop 2
K. (local) nobody
K. (nature) Anastasia 6
K. (nobility) nobody
K.(planes) nobody yet 2 Bop 2
K. (religion) Nobody 2 Bop 2
Linguistics Nox 3
Perception McLaren 6 Bop 4
Perform Alexandr 4
Profession Li Shin 4
Ride Li Shin Untrained 4 Alexandr 3
Sense Motive McLaren 6
Sleight of Hand Li Shin 4 Alexandr 3
Spellcraft Nox 6
Stealth Anastasia 5 Li Shin 4
Survival Anastasia 6 Li Shin 5
Swim Anastasia 9 Alexandr 8
UMD Nox 8 Alexandr (untrained) 3
I have great news for Brother McLaren, assuming he uses his 4 (2+1(int)+1(skilled) adventuring skills for heal, knowledge religion, sense motive and perception, he will be number one in all of these skills :).
We will have secondary arcane and spellcraft from alexandr at level 2, I could get a value point in handle animal (class skill for me) for calming some critters as well, and I do think that I will switch out skilled for bluff and stealth as class skills using fey magic.
This would give our party +8(9 with guidance) with +6 (7 with guidance) on diplomacy and bluff attempts, meaning roughly 50%ish odds of making a DC20 check in either, and 80%ish chance of making DC 15 checks, which is pretty good for level 1.
Hello all, and thanks to DM Yttras for the invite!
To kick us off, I'll list who we are:
Brother Jasper MacLaren (Aldizog) CG M Human Cleric of Cayden Cailean
Nininox Ambershale, XIV (Gerald) CG M Gnome Sorcerer (Marid)
Alexandr Sergejevich Kerensky (Mightypion) CG M Human Bloodrager (Mixed Blood - Aquatic/Black Blood)
Li Shin (Tazo) LN M Tian Samurai (Warrior Poet)
Anastasia Armat (SqueezeMeNow) NG F Human Alchemist (Ragechemist)At least based on the class description, looks like a well-balanced group! Guess I'll have to endure exploring with a bunch of goody-two-shoes. :P
Just to confirm, I believe we're doing Elephant in the Room and Background Skills? My character bakes in those assumptions.
Cant wait for your in character reaction when you find out at some point whom Alexandr worships.
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Just to confirm, I believe we're doing Elephant in the Room and Background Skills? My character bakes in those assumptions.
That's correct.
Two more items as well:
First, would you as the players prefer xp tracked or milestone advancement? If we do xp, I'll just keep track of a party total and keep it posted in the campaign description.
Second, I'll be posting here before I start the gameplay thread with a few of the colonists that each of your characters would know best. The campaign actually starts with landfall at the colony in Azlant, so you have had about six weeks to spend with your fellow colonists.
Definitly milestone for me, much less of a hassle for everyone in my experience.
I did take the liberty of picking up fey magic as an alternative racial trait. We know have 1 more character with low light vision (my perception currently sucks though), one more character with stealth and a pretty high bluff. Switched skill points around accordingly.
I can also cast one level 1 spell (touch of the sea) and 3 cantrips (each one per day, mending, know direction, purify food and drink) while below or above water.
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@DM Yttras, I also prefer milestone. Tracked XP basically requires you to throw a ton of random encounters to keep us at the level we are supposed to be at.
Cant wait for your in character reaction when you find out at some point whom Alexandr worships.
Yeah, Brother MacLaren is never going to buy into that. Demon lords in general have insane Bluff checks, and succubi in particular are all about being tempting and deceptive... this "redemption" is obviously a ploy. But, it's not his problem.
As to skills, Brother MacLaren has 5 adventuring skill points (1 from the FCB):
Sense Motive 1 +7
Knowledge (Religion) 1 +6
Heal 1 +7
Diplomacy 1 +6
Swim 1 +5 (-4 ACP)
Perception is a +3 with no ranks, but would only be a +4 with 1 rank (it isn't a class skill for clerics).
Our party is going to dish out and take a lot of damage. In my experience with mid- and high-level games, the forum's conventional wisdom is incorrect and AC really is an effective defense. Which we won't have so much. We have a bunch of people who don't use shields (though the Shield spell really is great for bloodragers and alchemists).
This is going to be a problem for Anastasia, given the way Rage Mutagen works. She will at some point fail the Will save and start taking stacking penalties on future Will saves. So she would probably be the most likely to get Dominated or Confused. We'll need to be prepared to disable her. I guess Brother MacLaren will take his two weapon proficiencies from Military Tradition as the Butchering Axe and the Sap. Saps are always good to have, and everybody proficient should have one. And he'll make sure to prepare Calm Emotions, though conceptually that goes against the grain.
I had originally intended to have a combat style other than "kill everything as fast as possible," allowing for fun and cinematic options like the Dirty Trick from the Divine Fighting Technique and only breaking out Last Call when absolutely needed. In my experience, combats are more fun when there is some back-and-forth instead of one-rounding everything. But, given the other PCs' builds, maybe I should get on board with that.
Yeah, Brother MacLaren is never going to buy into that. Demon lords in general have insane Bluff checks, and succubi in particular are all about being tempting and deceptive... this "redemption" is obviously a ploy. But, it's not his problem.
Aleksandr does not neccessarily buy into that himself (it is another reason for his "doubt" drawback), but well, she saved him from certain death (the matter of his "conversion" is now detailed in his character sheet. Other then some swear-words, it is wholly PG13.), which is as always a great way to find friends and influence people. He is going to be pretty tight lipped about that matter in general.
Never played a cleric, they really dont have perception as a class skill? Yikes.
I can grab either deft or powerfull maneuvers, probably at level 3 (My CMB when raging at level 3 is a very solid +9, so +11 with the bonus, Anastasia of course has pretty high CMD) AoO trip is really good in general. For controlling party members, deft maneuvers is imho better.
Nocticulas reason for interfering at all may well be that her currently in play gambit of "become a CN full deity" requires a number of X reasonably powerful CG aligned worshippers. Aleksandr isnt powerful yet, but has potential (Nocticula has "see point buy" as a skill) and getting his allegience was really cheap, requiring about 1 minute of her time which she could easily do by sitting on her throne and projecting herself into one of her actual cultists. Reasonable long term investment.
But well, nobody other then the GM knows how deeific ascendence works for demon lords if you also want an alignment change.
Also, feat advancement plan:
Level 3: Deft or powerful maneuvers, probably Deft.
Level 5: Furious Focus
Level 6 (Bloodline feat) Iron Will
Level 7: Unimpeachable honour (-4 when attack allies, +4 to resist compulsion or charm that is against my chaotic and good nature). Straight improved iron will is probably better, but this does seem really flavorfull.
Level 9: Vital strike (normal feat), Improved initiative from bloodline feats.
I think the Blade and Tankard Style would have been fine against the difficulty of a typical AP as written. But given Alexandr and Anastasia, I rather expect that the DM will see a need to apply the Advanced template or other power-ups to the foes.
Which means that Brother MacLaren may not be able to afford the -2 to attack rolls from TWF. And even beyond that he may need another boost to his attack rolls.
I could take the Vainglory drawback to get the Fate's Favored trait.
I could swap out TWF for, I don't know, Dodge or something. Not much works for a 1st-level melee cleric. War Blessing or Improved Init, maybe.
I could switch from Strength domain to Ferocity subdomain, and keep the 1st-level power instead of trading it out for Divine Fighting Technique.
Then I could dip either Brawler (Mutagenic Mauler) or Bloodrager after Clr4, in order to get an extra Str boost and also avoid taking the BAB loss at 5th level (will go into Brewkeeper at 6th).
It's all rather up in the air, but I want to be an effective melee combatant, and the concept I had originally in mind would be basically irrelevant in that capacity by level 5 given this party.
I don't know... maybe if retraining is a possibility I should just give TWF a try?
Being primarily a healer/buffer is not of interest to me. Not for this PC. I do have many other clerics who fulfill that role.
Edit: I guess if the 5th-level dip is Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade), he could have a reason to primarily fight with the rapier, which is after all his god's favored weapon.
Yeah, I definitely considered Warpriest because of the huge number of feats that TWF needs to compete with THW. But a low-level party needs Channel for healing.
That's also why Evangelist is out. One domain (which hurts) but also no Channel until level 3.
Channel is super important before the party has wands of CLW, and less vital after that point. Retraining may be in my future.
I have no experience preference DM. It would probably be easier for you to use milestone given it's an AP and sometimes you need to hit level X before Y in an AP.
Just felt the need to point out all of Ana's skills will become class skills when she picks up barbarian. While retaining the same skill points per level. She will also pick up medium armor or heavy armor if going armored hulk. Really hesitant on the latter given the penalties to ACP and losing uncanny dodge.
Her AC will get better, but likely never be really high.
What does the party think about discoveries/rage powers/barbarian archetype? There are a few different ways to go about it.
There are also a number of alchemical items that increase checks on certain skills.
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I’m fine with milestone experience as well, GM. Less bookkeeping required which is normally a plus.
Everyone should make a character they are happy with. Hopefully this group has a long run of posting together, so as long as you are happy with your choice, we can make things work!
@Brother McLaren
Preface: This is strictly mechanical talk.
Hmm, TWFing as a Cleric is generally somewhat challenging, especially if you want to be competitive with 40+ point buy Bloodragers and Ragechemists.
I think one possible way is to go into [url=https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Thunder%20and%20Fang] thunder and fang[url]
Elephant in the room means that weapon focus actually counts for a weapon group.
Due to this, Weapon Focus (Klar), one of the really awkward requirements for thunder and fang becomes either weapon focus (close) or weapon focus (blade heavy). The requirement for weapon focus (Earth Breaker) also becomes weapon focus (Hammers).
If you want to TWF from level 1, you would have to alter your martial traditions to give you proficiency in Earth Breakers and Klars (and probably turn last Call into an Earth Breaker), and begin fighting with a Klar (1D6 +4 for you) in the main hand and one of the simple d4 light weapons in close in the other (I think there should be like 4 of em).
Weapon focus would benefit both hands in this case, getting you a +3/+3 to hit with both close weapons factoring in your strength.
At level 3, weapon focus hammers and and level 5 you whack people with an Earth Breaker and a Klar, while wearing pretty reasonable armor and still getting the Klars AC bonus.
At some point, whack people with 2 Earth Breakers because why not.
You get go crusader and get thunder and fang at 3, but crusaders give up a lot.
I would probably consider dipping one level into fighter at level 2.
You could pick up the divine weapon technique for free trading away shield proficiency, using the optional replacement because you are a fighter, you automatically pick up martial weapons proficiency (I think there is a little trick we can do here to eak out an extra +1 to hit with your off hand) and heavy armor, which are both desireable things you dont want to actually invest a feat in, and gain a fighter bonus feat, giving you 2 feats from level 1, and essentially 2 feats at level 2 including the divine fighting technique.
You can probably start with 2 weapon fighting and brew potion (brewmaster requirement) as the 2 level 1 cleric feats (human), then grab the divine fighting technique at level 2 in exchange for shield proficiency, and use the fighter bonus feat for weapon focus light blades.
A slight additional optimization in case of fighter dip is that, for 500 gold, you can make your tankard part of the light blades weapon group, so that it benefits from weapon focus light blades which you likely pick for your rapier. This makes your tankard a martial rather then a simple weapon, but you dont care because you have martial weapon proficiency from the fighter dip.
Level 3 probably deft maneuvers for +2 to dirty tricks, as well as disarm and trip options.
You would be hitting at +4 +4 (-2 TWF +1 BAB, +1 Weapon focus, +4 STR) with both hands at level 2, discounting other possible buffs.
Disadvantadge: While you still enter brew keeper prestige class at the same level (6, because you satisfy the cast level 4 spells at char level 4 and the limiting factor is skill ranks) you lose 2 rather then 1 caster level which is significant. Although I still think its better then being a crusader.
Not really familiar with melee cleric at all, but don't they get stuff like divine power and the like?
@Anastasia - eventually, yes. The issue is that Cayden Cailean's specific fighting style is quite hard for a cleric to pull off. Clerics don't get any bonus feats to make TWF work, and the style makes it difficult to cast spells. A big two-handed weapon with high Str and Power Attack is just so simple and effective. It takes few feats, and you can just take your hand off of it to cast a spell. It takes a couple of feats to cast with blade and tankard - Catch Off-Guard followed by Two-Weapon Drunkard. It's a pretty big temptation to just go all-in on the butchering axe, but I really want to go for the Cayden Cailean aesthetic even if it is not as optimal (and I do want to give Brewkeeper a try). I just don't want to be so far behind as to be ineffective and relegated to being in the back on healing duty.
I think Li Shin has the right of it. I will take Fate's Favored and Divine Favor to give TWF a try, and if I fall too far behind then I will retrain into the big two-handed weapon approach.
1: TWF
3: Double Slice
5: Brew Potion
7: Outflank
9: Catch Off-Guard
11: Two-Weapon Drunkard
For comparison: at level 4, Anastasia when buffed (Enlarge, Rage, Mutagen) will have 31 Str and a +3 BAB? Assuming a MW Greatsword and Furious Focus, that is +14 to hit for 3d6+18 damage.
Alexandr will have, when raging and Enlarged, 26 Str and a +4 BAB. That is +13 to hit for 4d6+18 damage.
Brother MacLaren with Bull's Strength and Divine Favor (applying both in 1 round due to Accelerated Drinker) would attack at: +10 (1d6+11) and +9 (1d6+10). That's actually not too far behind, I guess.
@Anastasia - also, you asked about Discoveries - Infusion is fantastic. Hand out Shield or True Strike extracts to your allies.
Ana likely won't have that full strength boosting combo for most fights. I just like the combination of the two classes skillsets and their high ceiling. Your build is interesting and full of flavor. Please don't worry about falling behind.
I'm not too keen about infusion. Since she is only going two levels into alchemist she will never have more than a few first level extracts to use. I was considering something like elemental mutagen since it gives you resistance to a certain energy type as well as a bonus to a skill. Like swim. There were others as well.
I took Military Tradition as the alternate human feature to get proficiency in the Butchering Axe and the Sap.
If I skip that, then I can move some things to be earlier. But, a Sap is useful, and the Butchering Axe was if I was feeling frustrated plinking away and wanted to really cut loose now and then.
I think a major issue with Cayden Caylean stuff is that you need both the divine fighting technique, and two weapon drunkard to make it work for a caster. Two weapon drunkard has catch of guard as a prereq, which is essentially completely redundant with the divine fighting technique and thus a dead feat tax.
The second issue is that the divine fighting technique is tradeable for shield proficiency only for fighters and swashbucklers.
You could probably make it work if GM says that:
--Divine fighting technique optional replacement works for cleric
--Divine fighting technique, Cayden Caylean, becomes an alternative prereq for two weapon drunkard in place of catch of guard.
This would leave you with 2 less feats (one for the butchering axe + sap, one for brew potion) then any other cleric attempting to TWF (typically with a spiked gauntlet in the off hand), rather then 4 less feats (because you get the divine fighting technique without a feat investment and dont need to take catch of guard).
The first benefit of any divine fighting technique is always tradeable for the first domain power for clerics, and the Strength domain powers are terrible. So I am already making that trade.
But yes, being able to cast with blade and tankard is tricky.
Much of his casting will be in the form of brewing spells into potions through Brewkeeper, so he actually won't have many spell slots to use in combat at mid-levels. Just the self-buffs that can't be made into potions, like Divine Power and Deadly Juggernaut.
If he took Quick Draw, he could use the first round to drink + cast + draw, and then full-attack the next round. That would basically eliminate the need for Two Weapon Drunkard. I've rarely seen much use for Quick Draw, but this could be one of the cases for it.
But I do really like the idea of gesturing with the mug for the somatic components of spells, beer almost sloshing out. Has a very Jack Sparrow feel to it.
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Merry Christmas!
Oh, @GM
Aleksandrs christmas wishlist is:
--Any of the big 6, capes of free will in particular
--Long arm bracers
--Any magical Axe that is an improvement over his current kit and is not an orc double axe (he could wield one, but no TWF on him)
-- Alabastar trappings because keeping yourself presentable is much easier with those.
Perhaps Lady Luck or some other Lady will bless him to find such items somewhere? Who knows?
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Happy holidays to everyone!
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Merry Christmas and Hppay Holidays! I hope all of you are enjoying the season, however that may be!
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Brother MacLaren will make the wassail.
All I want for Christmas is a nice tincture and good company. Best wishes.
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An update for all of you, I should have start-of-game info out sometime tomorrow, and gameplay by Saturday.
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Okay, my final changes after much contemplating how this character can work:
Ditching Military Tradition. Feats are too scarce to spend one on an option he will rarely use, especially when the spell Bestow Weapon Proficiency exists. Going all-in on the TWF style.
Using the bonus human feat to pick up Catch Off-Guard, with an eye to taking Two-Weapon Drunkard at 5th.
Taking the Vainglory drawback to gain the Fate's Favored trait.
He's not going to be able to compete on damage with a Glory/Duels cleric (Iomedae or Gorum), but it should make for an interesting fighting style nonetheless. Brewekeeper should offer some really good utility for the party, especially when combined with Sipping Jackets at mid-high levels (who wouldn't like a swift-action Heal available every day)?
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I’m happy with Nox, so I’m not going to make any changes for the time being. I’m also excited to start!
Excited to start things, and not planning any changes to Ana either.
Following MacLaren's footsteps, I shall announce my character changes as well.
I realized that tripping underwater creatures is probably not possible. In the meantime, I've continued examining feint as a strategy because (1) ninja and (2) Kitsune's Mystique already grants Improved Feint as a bonus feat, which makes Deft Maneuvers semi-redundant. So instead of a trip build, I'm shifting to a feint build, with Greater Feint at 7. Here's the newest version of the changes:
-trade Exodus of Speed (+10ft move speed) for Kitsune's Mystique (can feint while taking a move action).
-trade Reckless trait (acrobatics as class skill) for Born Under the Stranger (reduce penalty to feint aberrations by 4)
-trade Deft Maneuvers for Combat Reflexes
-drop a point in Climb, add a point in Disable Device
-buy myself some Thieves' ToolsLooking forward to this game!
As far as I understand, because improved feint has been replaced by deft maneuvers, you get deft maneuvers from Kitsunes mistique, meaning you still have essentially improved trip vs land enemies or party members with magically induced attitude problems :).
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I’m not gonna say no if DM Yttras will upgrade my Improved Feint to Deft Maneuvers! It’s fun to have some maneuver options.
Since the no feat tax document has replacements listed for class features and prerequisites, that is quite alright.
I am actually eying a spring attack into whirlwind attack build.
Picking Dodge + Mobility (one feat in EITR) at level 3, Spring attack at 5, Whirlwind attack at 7, Iron will from bloodline at 6.
It will delay Vital strike to level 9, but give how much stacking reach I can get as Bloodrager it is probably worth it. I have longarm in my spell list, black blood gives +5 feet reach, aquatic at 12 gives another 5 foot reach underwater, I have enlarge person in my spell list as well.
I cant get combat maneuver options from bloodline bonus feats (wrong bloodlines for that) but there are some cool goodies in my combined list. Iron Will, Lightning reflexes, Iron Will,Great fortitude, improved initiative, toughness, Iron Will and Iron Will.
Bloodline ability wise, I have selected aquatic at level 1 (use slashing and bludgeoning weapons underwater without penalty, will definitly come up, Black blood level 1 is I get frost weapons when hit, twice or so per day, much better with a TWF build), will selected Black Blood(4) at level 4 for 4 extra reach, then select aquatic (4) at level 8, which immidiatly turns it into its improved "Breathe underwater all the time even without bloodrage, and gain 60 feet swimspeed while bloodraging" version, aquatic level 12 at level 12 (haste and +5 reach while bloodraging under water).
I have done some extensive testing and tinkering, and actually figured out that my AC can actually reach the benchmarks, nice.
Here is how I intend to do it:
--Dodge + mobility is 1 more AC at level 3.
--Shield is of course shield
--Combat exerptize is free, and a -2AB +2AC at level 4.
--I will have acrobatics 3 to have fighting defensively as a reasonable option.
If I do not rage, and have shield up (last for 4 minutes at level 1), and have another +1 from equipment, I can get to 30 AC by level 4.
10 (base) +6 (breastplate) + 3 (Dex) + 1 (dodge) + 1(equipment) + 4(shield) +2 (combat exerptise) +3 (fighting defensively)=30 AC.
I can mix and match here, if I want to hit, i dont use fighting defensively and would have a reasonable AB bonus of +8 (4 Bab, 5 STR without rage, masterwork -2 from exerptise) and an AC of 27.
It gets pretty good at level 5, when improved uncanny dodge means I cant get flanked, and spring attack allows me improved positioning.
We can be Spring Attack buddies! It’ll be Level 8 before Shin gets it, though. Until then, he may be quite jealous.
Are you sure you only get it at 8? Everyone gets combat expertise for free (Elephant in the room) and dodge and mobility are one feat instead of 2 (also elephant in the room), so spring attack essentially has only the "dodge+mobility feat" as its BAB requirement.
I dont know if this is actually valid, but GM dependent you may ask if you can Combat maneuver on a whirlwind attack. This could make whirlwind attack an option at level 9 if your build allows. AoO trip seems potentially potent.