Light-armored Weapon Master

So. I've been contemplating making a rather unorthodox Fighter: A graceful badass Weapon Master of the humble quarterstaff based conceptually off the Staff Adept from the computer game Battle Realms. That's all more or less well and good, but the one fly in the ointment is that I wish I could combine it with some other Archetype that strips the Fighter of their customary heavy armor and tower shield proficiency (little if any cross-pollination is possible between Fighter Archetypes, unfortunately). I want this character to stick with moderately light armor (I'd ultimately be aiming for something like a mithral breastplate).

Obviously, just because I'd have these proficiencies strictly demands I ever need to make use of them - my question to the vox populi then, is: Outside of Archetypes that specialize in this sort of thing, can anyone name some tricks and resources (feats, specialized equipment, obscure rules, etc.) that would enable me to make the most of light armor (try to avoid rank "cheese," please).

Final Note: I have looked at alternative classes for this character (like Monk and Magus). While I want him to be a Fighter and will be hesitant to listen to alternative pitches, my mind is nonetheless not 100% closed to other possibilities if you think you can make a good pitch for another class that might do a good job embodying this vision - oh, and I wouldn't mind help spotting traits that grant Acrobatics as a class skill; There's Rice Runner, which is appropriate, my one quibble being that it's one of those "quarter-feat rather than half-feat" traits that only gives the one skill as a class skill and the +1 bonus, rather than the "+1 to two skills, pick one to be a class skill" sort of affair that it seems to me ought to be the standard for skill traits.

I think the Kensai Magus can fit this quite well, even getting fighter only feats.

The staff magus archetpe also is great for that, getting a bunch of quarterstaff feats for free.

Weapon Adept Monk is also pretty cool, it trades away stunning fist, but that scales horridly anyway.

Thank you for the prompt response, but the Staff Magus and Weapon Adept - specifically - were what I'd already looked at and decided against. I admit I hadn't thought of applying the Kensei to this, but I have plans (possibly) for that Archetype anyways.

Anything/anyone else?

Is ur first link ur stats? are they set? if not then Two non fighter options occur to me.

1) crusader cleric 1/Inquisitor X of Nethys. Take weapon focus from crusader and then take channel smite and guided hand so that you are accurate as can be and have very strong will. Judgements and bane grant scaling damage for an otherwise low damage weapon. Perhaps most importantly, the u have a few skills to role play out the fluff I read on your link. Stealth, awareness, concentration, and more all are well done with inquisitor so you needed have huge intelligence to play up on those. Jus have strength 13 for power attack. The destruction domain also adds decent damage :)

2) a barbarian based on light or no armor is practical. Invulnerable rager DR makes up for the reduced AC of heavier armor. Increased will saves is big bonus and increased skills allows for fluff mentioned earlier.

Oh forgot, shield of swings is a good feat if u can live with the reduced damage. Still working on the vision of character.

How about a ranger? That class is one of the best at doing a strength based TWF.

The sohei can also do this well. And technically, they can do it while always using it as a 2handed weapon rather than a double weapon (which means more power attack). Overall, it always seemed like the 'easy' monk with their ability to flurry in light armor (which removes the need for so much WIS, making them far less MAD) and weapon training (which is actually called weapon training, so you could grab some gloves of dueling).

But I think you could possibly deal with heavy armor as a regular fighter without too many problems though. The fleet feat increases you base speed by 5, and it can be taken multiple times. Two pops you have 40 move, which is reduced to 30 in heavy armor.

How about a ranger? That class is one of the best at doing a strength based TWF.

The sohei can also do this well. And technically, they can do it while always using it as a 2handed weapon rather than a double weapon (which means more power attack). Overall, it always seemed like the 'easy' monk with their ability to flurry in light armor (which removes the need for so much WIS, making them far less MAD) and weapon training (which is actually called weapon training, so you could grab some gloves of dueling).

But I think you could possibly deal with heavy armor as a regular fighter without too many problems though. The fleet feat increases you base speed by 5, and it can be taken multiple times. Two pops you have 40 move, which is reduced to 30 in heavy armor.

Thank you for leads 1 and 2 (particularly 2 - I wouldn't mind some elaboration on 1).

Quarterstaffs are double weapons. They can be treated either as 2handed weapons, or a light and onehanded weapon.

Double weapons are great for TWF builds that can rely upon strength (can't weapon finesse the one handed end). This is because they can effectively deal with one of the key problems of TWF-what to do when you cannot get full attacks?

Using the ranger's full BAB and the ability to go with a strength build, you can get a fair amount of damage if decide to use your weapon as a 2handed weapon for charges/standard action attacks/etc.

The only reason why the quartstaff is not the go to for rangers is due to how it only has x2 crits and it can't be made of anything except for wood (so no silver or cold iron). Well, that and the fact it doesn't make you very much like Drizzt (And other characters that use TWF in the media).

I did contemplate Rangers - what Archetypes would you suggest best fit this character concept? Magic I can take or leave in this case, but I'd certainly want an alternative to Hunter's Bond, and possibly to Favored Enemies/Terrains.

I wouldn't mind help spotting traits that grant Acrobatics as a class skill

Wisdom in the Flesh would also make it a class skill, and if for some odd reason your more wisdom based than dexterity it might be more useful.

You could always go barbarian like someone already said and focus on endurance through hp and DR. Nothing says you can't use finesse and style while raging. I'd think the most preferable way to stay in light armor would be to flavor your armor as being rather skimpy instead of bulky. Even if its not perfectly reflected in mechanics, still worth the imagery and art I'd imagine.

Can I ask what exactly you want out of weaponmaster? Goes a long way to tell someone why your using this if you want to maybe look at some alternative. It really doesn't look like it gives that much unique, and some of its abilities are actually very situational. Limited reroll, additional AC when attacked by his chosen weapon, and finally at 13th he can increase the weapon's critical multiplier, but that eats action economy and comes kind of late. I'd think if you really wanted to show off your mastery with a staff you'd want more oomph. With Quarterstaff Mastery, the worst part about qualifying for the quarterstaff specific feats is just how many feats it devours and magus might get more oomph with his staff magus archetype. There are likely several other classes that could do light armor and quarterstaff, and some might be able to do it better because they get other abilities you might want beyond "I hit things with a literal stick!", including things like skill points and saves which might just save your butt or give you more to do over the course of the game and better reflect someone with mastery or who is a wandering master.

I did contemplate Rangers - what Archetypes would you suggest best fit this character concept? Magic I can take or leave in this case, but I'd certainly want an alternative to Hunter's Bond, and possibly to Favored Enemies/Terrains.

I've been told freebooter is a viable alternative to hunter's bond/favored enemy, though I'm not fond of it myself. Wild stalker gains rage, but tbh you may as well just be an actual barbarian withit. You can always bond with your companions instead of an animal companion. There's also spirit bond, which I have no idea where to rate, but to be fair I always thought the flanking buddy was a neat option, even if he's a scouting buddy who sticks in back sometimes and is great for roleplay(at which point you may just want to buy an animal, but that's self depreciation, eh.)

Edit: If using 3rd, you have other more spiritual options with an ascetic or meditant psychic warrior and I'm sure a number of other options.

I did contemplate Rangers - what Archetypes would you suggest best fit this character concept? Magic I can take or leave in this case, but I'd certainly want an alternative to Hunter's Bond, and possibly to Favored Enemies/Terrains.

Spirit ranger, free booter, and guide seem recommended for replacing hunter's bond (the latter two also alter your favored enemy mechanic to something that is more 'point at the boss and have everyone gang up on him'). Witch guard also does that (and some other stuff), but it is mostly interesting because it lets you pick a witch patron (so you could get some new, interesting level 1-4 spells) and you get some 'bodyguard' type feats as bonus feats.

For replacing favored terrains, infiltrator seems interesting. It gives you the option to gain some special abilities/feats based on a selected enemy type for 10 min/level (spent in 10 min increments). It is mostly vision, resistence, skill focus and save related feats, movements, and natural armor. The last one, natural armor, seems like it would be best suited for a 'light armor' build, since a nice +2 natural armor (which should stack with the fairly standard amulet of natural armor) would bring light armor up to par wit a breastplate, and a mithral breastplate up to par with most heavy armors.

Can I ask what exactly you want out of weaponmaster? Goes a long way to tell someone why your using this if you want to maybe look at some alternative. It really doesn't look like it gives that much unique, and some of its abilities are actually very situational. Limited reroll, additional AC when attacked by his chosen weapon, and finally at 13th he can increase the weapon's critical multiplier, but that eats action economy and comes kind of late. I'd think if you really wanted to show off your mastery with a staff you'd want more oomph. With Quarterstaff Mastery, the worst part about qualifying for the quarterstaff specific feats is just how many feats it devours and magus might get more oomph with his staff magus archetype. There are likely several other classes that could do light armor and quarterstaff, and some might be able to do it better because they get other abilities you might want beyond "I hit things with a literal stick!", including things like skill points and saves which might just save your butt or give you more to do over the course of the game and better reflect someone with mastery or who is a wandering master.

The Fighter class at its most fundamental exists to be the second-to-none master of all things weapons and armor. I like what the Weapon Master Archetype has to offer (admittedly, lack of Armor Training is annoying, but that may be the answer to my initial question about how best to make use of light armor when I still have heavy armor proficiency - since I wouldn't get Armor Training, that's not a bad incentive by itself to stick with lighter fare, and I get superior offensive skills in exchange). Also, the Fighter gets beaucoup de bonus feats, in addition to Weapon Specialization and the many other "you have to be a Fighter or at least pretend to be one at a rather steep cost to whatever else you really are" feats. Between Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus/Specialization, and all the tripping hijinks offered a staff-fighter, I daresay I want those feats.

I did say that while I was interested in hearing about alternatives, it would not be easy to actually sell me on them, since I mostly like what I see in what I've planned thus far.

Any other Acrobatics traits more compelling than Rice Runner? Wisdom In The Flesh doesn't work for multiple reasons.

I guess I'll reiterate my other question, are there any feats or special equipment/enchantments that specifically reward wearing lighter-end armor?

The upcoming Brawler works too!

-Full BAB
-Flurry (With quarterstaff) at full strength for each hit instead of 1/2 for off hand
-Light Armor
-A scaling dodge bonus like Gunslingers
-Can grab feats using a class ability
-Counts as a fighter for feat selection
-4+int skill points
-I think it got acrobatics as a class skill

If this character wont come off the shelf for a little while then the Brawler would be a great choice for this and fits it very well!

The Reckless trait from Ultimate Campaign also grants Acrobatics as a class skill (although at no better an exchange rate than Rice Runner does).

I would definitely suggest taking a look at the brawler, though.

That's a thought, actually - and yes, this character would certainly be waiting in the wings for a bit.
I'm presently playing one of the "Super-Modules" that ends with a bunch of Pathfinder Society Chronicles but lets you stray outside Pathfinder Society strictures while playing, and one of my party members took the opportunity to playtest a Brawler (I took the opportunity to be a Master Summoner), so I can vouch for their effectiveness.
I guess the one thing I'd hope for in that event would be a Brawler Archetype that gave up unarmed damage progression in exchange for more weapon skill or something.

The Fighter class at its most fundamental exists to be the second-to-none master of all things weapons and armor.

Results may vary. Its not just concept, its execution, which is why you get alternatives(well that and off the top of my head the only thing that rewards being in lighter armor is other class's class features...). The nice thing about feats is that everyone gets them, and fighter isn't the only option for bonus feats. Ranger gets 5, slayer can get at least 3 through slayer talents, barbarians get one less rage power than fighters do bonus feats and I'm very tempted to get extra rage power with a normal feat in most games because rage powers are just that nice.

Any other Acrobatics traits more compelling than Rice Runner? Wisdom In The Flesh doesn't work for multiple reasons.

The Andoran Faction gives access to Captain's Blade, and quest and campaigns has a trait called Soaring Sprinter which gives a +2 bonus to jump and keeping balance and makes it in class.

The upcoming Brawler works too!

Another option would be the slayer, so long as your looking at the ACG.

I'm presently playing one of the "Super-Modules" that ends with a bunch of Pathfinder Society Chronicles but lets you stray outside Pathfinder Society strictures while playing

You mean an adventure path?

As was mentioned infiltrator gives instant access to +2 natural armor. Combine that with barkskin and you'll still get decent ac.

There's also an archetype for ranger to trade out spells for a few nifty abilities if you wanted to go more fighter-y. Also you'd get 6 skill points and good reflex saves and a pet to help you out.

I'm currently trying out constrictor snake. Crappy movement speed but as a buffer to enemies can be pretty nasty.

As was mentioned infiltrator gives instant access to +2 natural armor. Combine that with barkskin and you'll still get decent ac.

Note that as a Tiefling, this character gets access to the Armor of the Pit feat no-muss-no-fuss, so that's already taken care of. :)

I'll look at the Slayer.

I looked at the Slayer - not 100% clear on what the appeal is, here. The Brawler does seem to fit the bill better (as would the Weapon Master Fighter).

I looked at the Slayer - not 100% clear on what the appeal is, here. The Brawler does seem to fit the bill better (as would the Weapon Master Fighter).

Swift action to effectively have weapon training against any target in sight for the encounter and I get skill points and I get all these slayer talents, and I can take ranger style feats as a ranger talent, and sneak attack for icing on that cake?

Nope, no appeal here. Especially not for someone playing a guy who takes advantage of another person's weak points through something like tripping.

I see...I had a hard time either deciphering or translating it into what was already in my head. It sounds reasonable enough, although I hadn't planned on Sneak Attack, or a lot of the other stuff (tracking, focusing on individual opponents, etc.). I'll keep it on one of the burners, though.

Let's say, in spite of it all, that I want to stick with the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype - I've already mentioned how losing all the Fighter's normal Armor Training is a sort of incentive to go with light(er) armor, but can anyone point out things like feats, traits, or magic items/enchantments that reward favoring light/medium armor?

The sohei can also do this well. And technically, they can do it while always using it as a 2handed weapon rather than a double weapon (which means more power attack). Overall, it always seemed like the 'easy' monk with their ability to flurry in light armor (which removes the need for so much WIS, making them far less MAD) and weapon training (which is actually called weapon training, so you could grab some gloves of dueling).

Sohei is something I would really like to try out, sometime. Getting access to monk saving throws is always nice, and mounted skirmisher as a no-prerequisite bonus feat gives you one one of the most sought-after things for any martial: the ability to full attack after moving more than five feet.

lemeres wrote:

The sohei can also do this well. And technically, they can do it while always using it as a 2handed weapon rather than a double weapon (which means more power attack). Overall, it always seemed like the 'easy' monk with their ability to flurry in light armor (which removes the need for so much WIS, making them far less MAD) and weapon training (which is actually called weapon training, so you could grab some gloves of dueling).

Sohei is something I would really like to try out, sometime. Getting access to monk saving throws is always nice, and mounted skirmisher as a no-prerequisite bonus feat gives you one one of the most sought-after things for any martial: the ability to full attack after moving more than five feet.

And I might as well bring it up- anyone can get access to a fully advancing animal companion with just a few feats. It is possible to have your whole style online by level 7 (well, you can grab a horse via animal ally by level 5; boon companion at 7)

Mounted skirmisher does vastly change how one can view the sohei. If full attacks are that easy, then you are practically a full BAB character with flurry. Outside of AoO's and prerequisites, there isn't really anything that treats them as 3/4 BAB after that.

I realize you have decided on the weapon Master. But look at the lore warden( Lots of cool combat maneuvers would feel rigth with a staff) and it seems there is a element of mystic warrior in your concept so war priest May also be worth a look.
For the ligth armor stuff. I think things like tripping and dirty tricks is good( this is where the lorewarden comes in) also taking a level dip in MoMS monk and getting snake, and crane style( just the first feat) and using a bo staff instead of a quarter staff are ok options.
The monk dip will also give you good save boost and evasion that ok for a fast semi mystic figther type.

Ranger is really the best imo, they get a lot of cool spells to support the fighting style even above the free TWF feats.

Also, nobody mentioned wood oracle, but... wood oracle.

PS, there's undine weapon shaft or whatever that thing is called that allows you to make a quarter staff from metal.

Ok, one suit of armor that comes to mind is the Tiger Pelt I believe it's called. Allows for pounce once per battle and is medium hide armor.

Shield of swings helps with your AC and CMD when you reduce your dmg with the staff. One of the guys in my group used this when he needed a boost to his AC....he did lots of dmg anyways. As for armor, i might suggest the mithral full plate of speed, it counts as med armor, but you need hvy armor proficiency. I would suggest just going full fighter...the choice and breadth of feats is unmatched. I know you dont want to use archetypes. Oh Barbarian has acrobatics as a class skill.....fast movement too. Works well with that mithral full plate....

I know you dont want to use archetypes.

Yes I do - in fact, I'd love to be able to use more archetypes (Lore Warden, Unbreakable, and Cad would all have been interesting choices in addition to Weapon Master). It's just that in the case of Fighters, the things the present roll call all replace are such that they're pretty much all mutually exclusive. Other than that, thanks for the input.

The problem with the weapon master is that you do not get a lot of bang for your buck with the quarterstaff. To go TWF you need high dex but the quarterstaff is not finessable so you need strength for to hit and damage, too.

On the other hand you get enough feats to support the fighting style if you manage to get the stats needed.
One suggestion I can give would be to add a one level dip into archaeologist and take the fate's favoured trait. That way you get +2 to hit and damage for some turns per level.

If you are ok to go a different route I'd suggest combining two classes you already dismissed: Slayer x/Staff magus 1.
Via that you get TWF without dex requirement, sneak attack to up your damage when possible, favoured target that has a good action economy, no armor prof you will not use, lots of skills and the option to take weapon specialization because you have quarterstaff master.
In addition to allowing specialization the latter feat gives you the option to use your staff not only as a double or as a two-handed weapon but in addition to that the one-handed option. Sometimes a free hand is just That good.

Noted - but for the sake of argument, since you argue that the Weapon Master wouldn't do well with the quarterstaff, what Fighter Archetype would you peg this idea to, if you were to keep it a Fighter?

Also, I did briefly flirt with the idea of becoming a Weapon Master of the dire flail rather than quarterstaff - I had pretty good reasons for turning away from the idea (all you really get is a modest increase to damage and the "trip weapon" feature built in at the price of needing Exotic Weapon Proficiency, forfeiting Tripping Twirl, and of course, the weapon is vulnerable to magic and monsters that screw with both metal and wood, rather than just one of the two), do you think that would work any better?

If I were to go fighter with this, I would say either Lore Warden, Two-handed Fighter, or Two Weapon Warrior.

Lore Warden is simply the best fighter archetype there is, Two Handed Fighter is great for adding damage, and Two Weapon Warrior takes advantage of the Staff being a Double Weapon.

However, I really think a Warpriest or Wood Oracle is going to be a better staff fighter than any fighter.

You could go half-orc and save yourself the EWP feat tax if you wanted.

If I were to go fighter with this, I would say either Lore Warden, Two-handed Fighter, or Two Weapon Warrior.

Lore Warden is simply the best fighter archetype there is, Two Handed Fighter is great for adding damage, and Two Weapon Warrior takes advantage of the Staff being a Double Weapon.

Two weapon warrior has a pretty big disadvantage in that it loses any bonus on attack damage from weapon training unless he's making a full though, and he doesn't get anything that might make up for it until 9th level.

Dawnflower Dervish is another excellent option

I looked at the Lore Warden. It certainly has relevant appeal (aside from not having the focus on transcendent mastery of a single weapon I was aiming for), but one comment: Isn't Know Weakness kind of disappointing? If a 19th-level Fighter manages to threaten a critical hit, shouldn't rolling to confirm be just shy of a mere formality at that point?

I would just go straight fighter with a splash of barbarian to get fast movement and acrobatics. If you wanted to go with an archetype, go two handed fighter.