Ok, I was wondering if anyone could give me a definative answer as to whether a Beastmorph Alchemist can use Enlarge Person on himself when he has used his mutagen to add abilities from Alter Self, or Beast Shape spells. I know you can not have two polymorph spells going on yourself at the same time. But some argue that Beastmorphing isn't actually casting the spell, but only adding two or three abilities listed by the particular spell. This is a harsh restriction on them, if so...not that they aren't getting a lot in return. By this token, even if they aren't a beastmorph, but have the feral mutagen to add claws and a bite, they have polymorphed their body to an extent, and would be denied access to Enlarge Person.
Any ideas?
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Well, the abilities you gain aren't coming from those spells at all. They just provide you the list. The abilities are coming from your mutagen. The only thing I can think of that would prevent them from stacking would be the order of application.
I think an argument can be made that after drinking the mutagen, the abilities are part of the physical form. Spells that change your physical form *and thus cause you to lose abilities based on that form* could cause you to lose access to them.
But enlarge wouldn't fall under that anyhow.
Ummm....Enlarge Person is not a Polymorph effect.
Ummm....Enlarge Person is not a Polymorph effect.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
The question is: is beastform mutagen a polymorph effect or not? It is not described as such - it seems to be making changes to current form and possibly be stackable with actual polymorph effects (theoretical alchemist/druid could wildshape into another shape and then drink mutagen to gain its benefits while under polymorphied.
The beastform mutagen only seems to refer to specific list of abilities included in particular spells to avoid repeatedly listing them in its description.
But even if beastform is a polymorph effect, Enlarge Person is not.
Argument #1: Mutagen is not a polymorph effect, nor are the bonuses size bonuses, selecting beastmorph archetype doesn't change that fact, enlarge person is fine.
Argument #2: You pick an ability(ies) listed on the ____ list. You are not actually affected by those polymorph spells. Enlarge is fine.
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But even if beastform is a polymorph effect, Enlarge Person is not.
But Enlarge does change your size, so it won't work with a polymorph effect.
Alter Self is a polymorph effect, so Beastform granting something from a polymorph effect is a polymorph effect in my book. You are welcome to disagree, but I think there is more to show it is a polymorph than the fact it doesn't say what kind of effect it is.
I dont see where either of these is listed as a polymorph effect so there should be no problem.
The question about an actual polymorph effect might be a little more interesting, and I would imagine that this would fall under the rules for a GM determining what abilities are determined by your base form section of the polymorph rules.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
From the alter self spell description: "If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."
From the beast shape I-IV spell descriptions: "If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus... If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus... If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus... If the form you take is that of a Medium magical beast, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, and a +4 natural armor bonus... If the form you take is that of a Large magical beast, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus."
From the enlarge person spell description: "The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size... Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
So, a Medium character using enlarge person when under the effect of alter self or beast shape to take a Medium form would gain no benefit beyond the size increase for enlarge person (the size bonuses to Str don't stack), while the penalties apply. A Small character using alter self or beast shape to take a Medium or larger form or a Medium character using beast shape II-IV to take a Large or larger form gains no benefit for enlarge person at all ("Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack").
Dragonchess: the Beastmorph is not providing the size bonuses from alter self and beast shape, it is providing the abilities listed there (darkvision, poison, pounce, etc.).
Key phrasing:
"At 3rd level, a beastmorph's mutagen causes him to take on animalistic features ... For example, when the beastmorph uses his mutagen, he may gain a furry muzzle and pointed ears like a werewolf..."
I don't see this as any actual polymorph effect in place, just added features. It can't even add a bite attack from what I can see. I'm generally wary of stacking enlarge, but there doesn't seem to be an issue here. The size change clause of the polymorph rules are there because several size change spells act very much like polymorph effects, without actually being them.
All good to go.
Finally got a chance to read the replies. So far, it seems more are thinking that Enlarge Person could work with the Beastmorph's beastform mutagen. Some are saying that this is because Enlarge Person isn't a polymorph spell and some saying because the beastmorph isn't polymorphing when adding features from polymorph spells. Nothing definative quite yet.
If it is the latter, however, that would open a beastmorph to the possibility of combining his beastform ability with casting an actual Beast Shape spell; gaining a size change plus additional ability picks!?? That would be fun!
What do you think?
The central question, as others have noted, is whether or not Beastform Mutagen should be considered a polymorph effect. As enlarge person will not affect you if you are under a polymorph effect.
Because the abilities (Beastform, Improved, Greater, Grand) reference Alter Self, and Beast Shape spells (whic are polymorph effects) I lean very much towards it should be considered a polymorph effect despite not being clearly stated as such.
The Beastmorph general description does state that the character takes on animalistic features (as flavor text, mostly), but the beastform mutagens use the alter self and beast shape spells as "guidelines" from which he can pick abilities to add, and certainly not gaining the size change. These abilities aren't, by any means, gained through polymorphing or casting the spells themselves. So, the question remains...is the Beastform Mutagen considered to be a polymorph effect.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.The question is: is beastform mutagen a polymorph effect or not? It is not described as such - it seems to be making changes to current form and possibly be stackable with actual polymorph effects (theoretical alchemist/druid could wildshape into another shape and then drink mutagen to gain its benefits while under polymorphied.
The beastform mutagen only seems to refer to specific list of abilities included in particular spells to avoid repeatedly listing them in its description.
You are, of course, correct. I was thinking of the general rule that two effects that increase size don't stack, which isn't applicable to Beastmorph, and totally forgot about this clause in Polymorph.
I don't think Beastmorph is a Polymorph effect. Yes, it does refer to a spell that is a Polymorph effect, but it doesn't replicate that spell, or even say something like "as Alter Self." It only references the spell to summarize what Special Qualities you can choose to gain from the Mutagen.
While Beatmorph does change your form in some small way, the physical change doesn't have any mechanical impact. If you choose the werewolf's muzzle, you don't get a bite attack. If you get a Lizardman's scales, you don't get natural armor.
The ability gained isn't tied to the description of the change (while you could explain gaining Scent from the wolf muzzle, you can also choose Scent with the Lizard scales).
Having said all that, I can understand why someone could have the opposite opinion.
I am not convinced that you can't use enlarge on a polymorphed target.
Note that it says that "OTHER effects that change your size have no effect while you are polymorphed" this falls rigjt in line with the regular riles which say that no effects that increase your size stack.
So if you are beast shaped (via the spell) enlarge has no effect. It doesn't fail to get cast or immediately disappear like another polymorph effect woupd... it just has no effect. If you wildshape... then get enlarge person cast on you it still gets cast and the spell is still on you for its duration. It just doesn't have any effect. If you shift back to your normal form you could then gain the effect of the enlarge if its duration had not run out.
Also... a polymorph spell like aspect of the stag would not interfere with enlarge person because there would be no OTHER effect chabging your size and enlarge person is not tagged as a polymorph effect.
So... beastform mutagen should have no issue even if you went against RAW and decided thatit was a polymorph effect.