Do any of these AC Bonuses combine?

Do any of these stack with each other?

Stalwart Defender
AC Bonus (Ex): A stalwart defender receives a dodge bonus to AC that starts at +1 and improves as the defender gains levels, until it reaches +4 at 10th level.

Sacred Fist Warpriest
AC Bonus (Su): A deity protects her sacred fist as long as he is unarmored and unencumbered. A sacred f ist adds his Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a sacred fist gains a +1 def lection bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the sacred fist is f lat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

Is there an actual rule against taking the ability score more than once, that you could cite?

I'm still trying to find it.

dodge bonuses stack with each other, so let's remove all the dodge bonuses out of the equation.

James Jacob did mention in his q&a thread that you can only add an ability modifier once, you can go check his thread about it. But sacred fist warpriest ability does get deflection bonuses as well, while the wis modifier to ac wouldn't stack, you would stick the deflection bonuses from sacred warpriest at 4th level and higher.

Link. It's pretty clear that the Monk and Sacred Fist AC Bonuses, RAW, can stack, because they are untyped bonuses from different sources. Everything else would also stack, because Dodge bonuses always stack.

Now, why you'd go Monk 1/Sacred Fist 1/Brawler 4/Stalwart Defender X, I don't know. ;)

dodge bonuses stack with each other, so let's remove all the dodge bonuses out of the equation.

James Jacob did mention in his q&a thread that you can only add an ability modifier once, you can go check his thread about it. But sacred fist warpriest ability does get deflection bonuses as well, while the wis modifier to ac wouldn't stack, you would stick the deflection bonuses from sacred warpriest at 4th level and higher.

Yes, but he also said "I'm not a rules guy". JJ's responses, with all due respect, isn't RAW. I could see it as a good recommendation to bring to a GM if there isn't RAW, FAQ, or Developer commentary on the subject though.

If you can, link it or cite it for me? I'll go spelunking to search through that QA thread. I think I still have it bookmarked.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

Is there an actual rule against taking the ability score more than once, that you could cite?

I'm still trying to find it.

No the rule they're refering to is

"Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa."

Link. It's pretty clear that the Monk and Sacred Fist AC Bonuses, RAW, can stack, because they are untyped bonuses from different sources. Everything else would also stack, because Dodge bonuses always stack.

Now, why you'd go Monk 1/Sacred Fist 1/Brawler 4/Stalwart Defender X, I don't know. ;)

LOL. I don't know either. I was really asking after the GM "Rules Guy" at a PFS table gave me the response of "Because they're from the same named game element, you won't get your Wisdom bonus to AC twice from multiple installments of the AC Bonus class feature. The deflection bonus from the Sacred Fist AC Bonus, however, will stack with the untyped bonus from the Monk AC Bonus because those are demonstrably different bonuses."

It just really started to make me wonder what all AC Bonuses would stack.

Edit: I just checked out the link you gave me, and the link within that link to the QA with JJ. It's funny he says they stack on that matter, but he "couldn't see it" with Sacred Fist + Monk. This just further proves he isn't the most reliable decision for rules. Everyone is prone to error, even the magical JJ.

Seranov wrote:

Link. It's pretty clear that the Monk and Sacred Fist AC Bonuses, RAW, can stack, because they are untyped bonuses from different sources. Everything else would also stack, because Dodge bonuses always stack.

Now, why you'd go Monk 1/Sacred Fist 1/Brawler 4/Stalwart Defender X, I don't know. ;)

LOL. I don't know either. I was really asking after the GM "Rules Guy" at a PFS table gave me the response of "Because they're from the same named game element, you won't get your Wisdom bonus to AC twice from multiple installments of the AC Bonus class feature. The deflection bonus from the Sacred Fist AC Bonus, however, will stack with the untyped bonus from the Monk AC Bonus because those are demonstrably different bonuses."

It just really started to make me wonder what all AC Bonuses would stack.

This is mechanically impossible and he is outright wrong. Either you'd get all or nothing. if you are monk 4 and SF 4 you'd either get 2x wis and +2 AC or you'd get 1x wisdom and +1 AC. Getting 1x wisdom and +2 ac is not supported by any reading.

I'd ask him what happens in an AMF if you chose to take the bonus from the SF feature considering it TURNS OFF.

yeah sure here's some links on that matter, didn't even take me 5 min to look them up on google:

link 1

link 2

link 3

This is mechanically impossible and he is outright wrong. Either you'd get all or nothing. if you are monk 4 and SF 4 you'd either get 2x wis and +2 AC or you'd get 1x wisdom and +1 AC. Getting 1x wisdom and +2 ac is not supported by any reading.

I'd ask him what happens in an AMF if you chose to take the bonus from the SF feature considering it TURNS OFF.

What's an AMF? Sorry for the newb question D:

dodge bonuses stack with each other, so let's remove all the dodge bonuses out of the equation.

James Jacob did mention in his q&a thread that you can only add an ability modifier once, you can go check his thread about it. But sacred fist warpriest ability does get deflection bonuses as well, while the wis modifier to ac wouldn't stack, you would stick the deflection bonuses from sacred warpriest at 4th level and higher.

But JJ is very much not a rules source, and his opinion on adding attributes twice has been contradicted by actual rules people.

Brawler and Monk AC bonus doesn't stack, because Monk is a parent class of Brawler. Warpriest and Stalwart Defender stacks with all of it.

However, despite the oversight in the archetype, Sacred Fist is clearly a Monk/Cleric hybrid, not a Fighter/Cleric hybrid, and as such shouldn't stack with the other monk(ish) AC Bonus abilities.

When they're untyped or dodge bonuses from different sources, you bet they do.

Even by an overly literal reading of the rules, Monk AC Bonus (Ex) and Sacred Fist AC Bonus (Su) are not, in any way, the same ability. They interact in the exact same way that Divine Grace and that Oracle revelation, which replaces your Dex modifier with your Cha modifier for Reflex saves, do.

The only people who claim they don't stack read "AC Bonus" and then completely ignore the rest of the ability.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

All dodge bonuses stack. I think that is because they are the easiest to lose. Untyped bonuses also stack. The only possible issue I see with your four sources is adding a single ability score - Wisdom in this case - to AC more than once. This has been argued many times in the past.

Is there an actual rule against taking the ability score more than once, that you could cite?

I'm still trying to find it.

I don't know if it is specifically addressed in the rules. My point was that people have been arguing both sides of it for years, and that what it comes down to is do you think the source is the class feature or the ability score? In the end its going to be a matter of what your gaming group decides to go with.

As you can see by your responses, some people seek to polarize the issue very quickly. I feel that the varying levels of importance people place on RAW and RAI are a factor.

Undone wrote:

This is mechanically impossible and he is outright wrong. Either you'd get all or nothing. if you are monk 4 and SF 4 you'd either get 2x wis and +2 AC or you'd get 1x wisdom and +1 AC. Getting 1x wisdom and +2 ac is not supported by any reading.

I'd ask him what happens in an AMF if you chose to take the bonus from the SF feature considering it TURNS OFF.

What's an AMF? Sorry for the newb question D:

Anti magic fields turn off SU. Such as the SF's AC. This does not happen to the monk's EX AC.

Well then I suppose it's a case of DM discretion since there isn't a clear answer to this matter. I side with the not stacking side of rules but do whatever you want.

Eltacolibre wrote:

dodge bonuses stack with each other, so let's remove all the dodge bonuses out of the equation.

James Jacob did mention in his q&a thread that you can only add an ability modifier once, you can go check his thread about it. But sacred fist warpriest ability does get deflection bonuses as well, while the wis modifier to ac wouldn't stack, you would stick the deflection bonuses from sacred warpriest at 4th level and higher.

But JJ is very much not a rules source, and his opinion on adding attributes twice has been contradicted by actual rules people.

Brawler and Monk AC bonus doesn't stack, because Monk is a parent class of Brawler. Warpriest and Stalwart Defender stacks with all of it.

However, despite the oversight in the archetype, Sacred Fist is clearly a Monk/Cleric hybrid, not a Fighter/Cleric hybrid, and as such shouldn't stack with the other monk(ish) AC Bonus abilities.

Though I agree, I ponder why they didn't add in "it functions like a Monk's of the same name" like they did with the other 3-4 abilities in the Sacred Fist Archetype. That alone would have solved that. However, they left it out.

It's mostly relevant because we need a PFS answer. A potential difference of 5 AC can be the difference between a dead character and a character that had to buy a 16 in str not to get instagibbed because you have terrible AC.

Alternatively we can use a more annoying rule which likely to irk GM's who would disallow it more. 1 level of fighter flurry in full plate and a tower shield.

Death in PFS? I thought everybody was complaining that PFS was too easy.

Death in PFS? I thought everybody was complaining that PFS was too easy.

Gearmen man they're significantly under CR'ed

It's mostly relevant because we need a PFS answer. A potential difference of 5 AC can be the difference between a dead character and a character that had to buy a 16 in str not to get instagibbed because you have terrible AC.

Alternatively we can use a more annoying rule which likely to irk GM's who would disallow it more. 1 level of fighter flurry in full plate and a tower shield.

Please, elaborate on this alternate rule? :D

Alternatively we can use a more annoying rule which likely to irk GM's who would disallow it more. 1 level of fighter flurry in full plate and a tower shield.

...and then take a level of Sohei and grab Mounted Skirmisher.

Undone wrote:

It's mostly relevant because we need a PFS answer. A potential difference of 5 AC can be the difference between a dead character and a character that had to buy a 16 in str not to get instagibbed because you have terrible AC.

Alternatively we can use a more annoying rule which likely to irk GM's who would disallow it more. 1 level of fighter flurry in full plate and a tower shield.

Please, elaborate on this alternate rule? :D

The sacred fist never loses flurry of blows no matter what armor he wears. Fighter gives him prof in both heavy armor and tower shields. You lose wis to ac but get full plate.

Undone wrote:

Alternatively we can use a more annoying rule which likely to irk GM's who would disallow it more. 1 level of fighter flurry in full plate and a tower shield.

Please, elaborate on this alternate rule? :D

The monks inability to flurry in armor is not part of the flurry of blows ability, it comes from the proficiencies part of the monk class.

Brawler and Monk AC bonus doesn't stack, because Monk is a parent class of Brawler. Warpriest and Stalwart Defender stacks with all of it.

However, despite the oversight in the archetype, Sacred Fist is clearly a Monk/Cleric hybrid, not a Fighter/Cleric hybrid, and as such shouldn't stack with the other monk(ish) AC Bonus abilities.

Brawler and monk AC actually do stack. One is untyped, one is dodge. There is no RULE that prohibiting them from stacking. In fact the rules explicitly state they do.

The statement on parent classes ADVISES that many abilities will prove redundant, so there is little advantage for the most part (paraphrasing), but it in no way imposes a rule against abilities stacking.

Until an FAQ/errata is posted RAW Monk and Sacred Fist wisdom bonus to AC stacks. PFS can impose whatever houserule they want, but that is what it amounts to.

I would let the levels stack, so a monk4/fist4 would count as either lv. 8...

Pupsocket wrote:

Brawler and Monk AC bonus doesn't stack, because Monk is a parent class of Brawler. Warpriest and Stalwart Defender stacks with all of it.

The statement on parent classes ADVISES that many abilities will prove redundant, so there is little advantage for the most part (paraphrasing), but it in no way imposes a rule against abilities stacking.

You're paraphrasing wrong. The introduction to hybrid classes talks about "redundant" abilities, and then imposes the rule that such abilities don't stack. "Redundant" is not a well-known rules term of the game, and therefore requires a bit of common sense in the interpretation.

Until an FAQ/errata is posted RAW Monk and Sacred Fist wisdom bonus to AC stacks.

PFS can impose whatever houserule they want, but that is what it amounts to.

But you do realize the difference between "making up new stuff" and "patching Paizo's sloppy-ass writing", don't you?