Greetings everyone!
Before we start the game there are a couple of things that I feel we should talk about. Some of them I mentioned in the opening post of the recruitment.
But first there is something else that I'd like to address. Character submission tends to be a period where a lot of players try to be as agreeable with the GM as possible in order to get into the game. (It's not that I think you people are lickspittling.but it's very easy and understandable to lean towards such behavior)
Now that game has (almost) started such behavior should be avoided (in my opinion, at least). I can't stress enough that this is our game!
If there is ever anything that you think I should improve upon or if I make decisions that you think aren't the best ones for the game then I want you to call me out on that so that we can try to resolve those issues as best as possible.
Also if you have any cool ideas for scenarios etc, feel free to contact me and we'll figure out how we can make such a thing work.
I can't call myself a perfect GM, sometimes I have a hard time calling myself a good GM but I do see myself as an open GM. I encourage and enjoy your input in the game!
As for the discussion, I'd like to know what you think about the following ideas:
Handling secret rolls:
Sometimes knowing the exact number you rolled can have a negative impact on the game. Surprises are fun after all. I think handling the following rolls form behind the screen would improve the game:
Players
-Bluff checks to deceive NPCs. (I'd roll this when I know deception is at work during conversation. If unclear I'll contact the player whether he believes he's bluffing or not.)
-Disable device checks.
-Linguistic checks and the accompanied wisdom checks.
-Perception checks (Asking for a passive perception check would put players on their toes where there characters would not be)
-Sense motive checks
-Saving throws against disease (The effects of the disease become very apparent after the incubation period)
-Saving throws against illusion spells (disbelief)
-Spell duration rolls
DM
-Bluff checks to deceive PCs.
-Disable device checks.
-Perception checks
-Sense motive checks
Handling knowledge checks:
When a knowledge check is rolled I'll hide the information gained in a spoiler box tagged with the name of the one who rolled the check. The player is encouraged to explain the information and how he learned it in his own words. "While studying at the library of Absolom I came upon a passage about... etc.
Handling combat:
I think we can speed up combat when the GM rolls and declares everyone's initiative order at the start of combat. Then everyone posts in initiative order. The turn will end with a narration post.
Handling Sandpoint's economy:
In order to give the businesses of Sandpoint a more personal feel I want to experiment with inventory lists. Every business in Sandpoint has a list of goods and services they sell and how many of such items they have currently in stock. The amount of magic items available for sale in the town will be randomly generated as per the settlement rules with some minor intervening where logic demands it.
The inventory list will change weekly and will be published the first time a character enters that business in the new week.
If characters are in desperate need of a certain item they will either have to ask npcs for help or get creative, opening up opportunities for interesting encounters and plot hooks.
Prices for the same item may differ between vendor. The general trader who bought some items off the smith from example will have to sell this item at a slightly higher price to generate profit.
Handling campaign management:
I had an obsidian portal page in the works for a Rise of the Runelords campaign back when I planned to play the adventure path with a tabletop group. If people are interested I can convert it so that this group can make use of it!
Handling XP:
I was thinking of handing out XP after every chapter within the adventures. But I don't know how this usually works in pbp.
Those are all the things I can come up with for now. What do you think? And is there anything important that I missed?
Some feedback:
Unless a ruling is going to end a character, I'm happy to discuss rules as a sideline, without stopping play. Rules discussions (normally) are almost never fun. I don't like a rules discussion to interfere with having fun, and so try to avoid putting a rules discussion center stage unless we're trying to preserve the fun for somebody.
This is an entertaining hobby. It isn't a business. It isn't a profession. None of us are going to eat better or afford better clothes based on participating in this game. It needs to be treated like entertainment and not like something with a major impact on any of our lives.
Secret rolle
Meh. I have developed the habit of writing a post based on what I'm trying to do, previewing the post to see the die roll result, and adapting the text to how good (or bad) the die roll looks. Given the timezone difference, I will not normally be able to edit the post based on the dice result if you roll the die, so I will probably be less descriptive instead of randomly descriptive.
Spoiler Text
Pretty standard behavrio form hat I've seen.
Combat
GM-rolled initiative is fairly common. So is "block" initiative, where all the bad guys go at one time (which effectively allows all the PCs to go at one time too, whether they are all before, after, or split around the bad guys in the initiative order).
Waiting for people to post in initiative order REALLY slows things down. I've seen it more common for everyone to be expected to post within 24 hours of the GM's post for the round, and then the GM sorts the inputs by order and does the narrative as you described. It is a little more work, but it tends to keep things moving better.
Note that the 24 hour limit tends to be weekdays, given the lowered posting expectation over the weekends.
Economy
Interesting. Gonna be an awful lot of additional work. I'm not sure how good the payback will be for that work. But ir's not my work, so . . ..
Maps
Wherever. I'm not sure what else you had in mind as "campaign management."
XP
I see mixed bags. Some people are aggressive about tracking XP by the standard rules. Some people provide bonus XP based on player activity, trying to promote good posting habits in order to strengthen the game. More and more frequently, I'm seeing level by story point. Nobody tracks experience, and everybody levels when the GM wants them to. Less paperwork and characters are assigned the level the module expects them to have at any given point (or not, depending on how the GM is trying to tailor things).
Seems like you've covered all the bases, Minker. At least the base I can think of :)
I like your economy ideas, while some people despise the whole notion of actually roleplaying buying equipment, I see pbp as an opportunity to be able to increase the immersion factor; just as long as it doesn't take a week in real time to buy a shield :)
As for XP, as Guada says , i've seen all methods used. I'm torn between liking the old style, x xp for this ,the y xp for that ( appeals to my old school sensibilites) and the story based level award. Either way its dependant on the GM, really.
I agree that I don't think posting in initiative order is necessarily the best way to go about things. It would be faster if players were allowed to post tactics the moment they were able to- Especially with a larger group. That said, I DO want to keep initiative for the purpose of "Who action goes first", given my +6 bonus and two rolls! But until the last persons post, we'll be able to edit and alter our posts if we need to. Parties don't necessarily work in perfect sync, especially early on.
Gudada: You raise a couple of interesting points.
As far as rule discussions go I plan to use this thread for that instead of littering the gameplay topics with it. And while I agreeing with your focus on the fun I do believe that getting some of these things out of the way before the game starts will save us a lot of hassle during play.
With the secret rolls. Even though that with most of those the suggestion came from the crb I understand your dilemma. Maybe we could try the following format?
-Player: Describes the attempted action in detail
-DM: Briefly lists the result
-Player: Describes the result and continues describes what he does next.
I think that could work for at least some of the rolls. At least the ones with no set dc.
As for combat I planned to put similar opponents in blocks at least. A group of 3 goblins would be a block but their leader would be a different block.
Your method of handling initiative is better than mine so I think that we should use that.
About the economy. It's a heap of work, but it's work that I'll have to do only once. Being that I plan to run this campaign multiple times in pbp and tabletop it's worth the time investment.
With campaign management I mean a place to keep maps, information on npc's, events and various topics. Maybe even a short adventure log. Obsidian portal presents all the campaign information in a wiki which would prevent searching for hours through pages of forum posts.
As for the XP, out of the possibilities you listed, which one do you prefer?
Nar'a: My sentiments exactly on the immersion. Which makes the issue with descriptive posts vs secret rolls all the more maddening.
Secret rolls don't bug me. I enjoy a little suspense, just so long as waiting it doesn't slow the game. I have to agree with Gudada, waiting to post in initiative order might slow things down a lot. So long as we post with appropriate contingencies, I think we should just try to limit ourselves to keeping to the same round. As far as complex economies go, if you want the work, go for it! I'm not sure what you mean by 'campaign management.' I plan to keep my own notes and inventory, but if you want to keep all that in a central page, I have no objections. As for XP, I'm okay with anything from me keeping track of individual points to the GM just tells me when to level up.
I'm looking forward to the game starting up.
I think that's okay. Although I have to disagree with posting combat and then letting it just sort out. Knowing this AP, posting you actions ahead of time without knowing the full scope could very well put us (or at least the character) into a pretty bad spot in a good amount of fights, and you'll see why I say this pretty quickly. Metagame knowledge aside though, I've seen where the random posting goes out of hand pretty quickly. Not saying you can't handle Minkers, but with as much speed as it can bring to combat, it can also slow it down just as much if not more because of one confused person. If a post doesn't get looked at right, or gets lost all together, if leaves way to much risk of someone feeling left out, someone getting confused about what the hell is going on, and the eventual 'I can piss you off more than you can me' match. I've been in enough of those to have had my fill and know they come quick and harsh, and it's usually from the person getting screwed out of kills or being forced into a position they never intended because they somehow often get the short end of initiative rolls. I'm fine with Minkers rolling our initiatives, but I'm very uncomfortable with the 'post now sort later' method of combat.
So sorry for missing the discussion thread I had no idea it was made till just now. I see no problem with what has been proposed and agreed upon till now.
As for character changes, I don't have one but my crunch is missing a campaign trait, because I am having trouble picking one; while I could go with the obvious "Outlander(Exile)" trait, as it is the closest one to Karl's current situation, but I really feel the "Blacksheep(Bitter Nobleman)" offers more rp opportunities, it just makes sense that Karl would find himself in the employ of a corrupt nobleman, but the problem is that trait requires the character to be born in Sandpoint. If its okay with you minkers I could add the trait and make an addition to Karl's back story that explains how he found himself in the employ of Scarnetti. If not I'll just pick the former option, if it is okay to go with the latter, I'll simply change knowledge(local) from cosmopolitan to another skill, since I'll be getting it through Blacksheep.
Oh I also forgot to ask about starting gold. Do we go with average, roll dice or full starting gold?
Average I believe, right?
That's right!
I need to drop the armor and my starting coin. That'll get the value right for Gudada.
Edit: Done. Also reformatted his sheet a LITTLE, based on what I've added to my stock format since he was first written up.
S'up, guys. Took me a while to find this page because the tag never came up for me.
On Experience
I think the fairest way I have seen my GMs do experience is by the progression of the story - when I ran Carrion Crown I noticed that each chapter had the "the PCs should be Xth level when they come here" text in the beginning, and that they generally leveled up once or twice during each chapter.
I'm perfectly fine not having XP as another number I need to keep track of, as long as my character can keep pace with the story.
On Combat
I generally post twice or three times each day if I'm able, but I'm free at around 1 AM EST. I don't know if that is close to when other people usually post.
We should figure that out.
"the PCs should be Xth level when they come here" This is generally how I prefer to do it when DMing. You get less of players asking six times for a specific XP number, and it keeps everyone even.
However, on the other hand, if you do go by individual experience grants, you can better reward players for good RPing.
Good point on that one, the individual xp.
Long day I take it?
It is Sunday. Lots of games stall across the weekend. Far more than don't.
Here in several hours, Minkers should be starting his Monday.
Heck, maybe he was waiting to see if anyone else wanted to chime in about any of the more recent comments? He could have been waiting to see if somebody else wanted to make a comment post-weekend?
Maybe. We'll see what happens though I guess.
Monday has started indeed.
For convenience I´ll try to post my schedule daily.
I´m off to work now and I´ll be back in 8 or 9 hours. When I return I´ll reply on the above messages and suggestions and send out some PM´s to figure out some specific character details.
See you guys then!
Karl: The black sheep trait seems the better fit indeed. I look forward to see what you've worked out with the Scarnetti's.
As for gold. Average indeed.
On combat: To be honest Forlorna's appeals the most to me but as Satinder explained it may lead to some complications. I think some of those complications may be averted if we do the following.
Use very clear OOC directions to our game mechanical actions at the end of our post. I'll be labeling the X and Y dimensions with numbers and letters.
If player A posts his actions (for example, shoot the goblin) and after that player B with a higher initiative score posts an action which would turn the former action invalid. (killing the goblin which player A wanted to attack) allow this person to rework his post.
End the round with a little recap of the round and a map update so that it's clear where everybody stands and what happened.
This way of playing may be a bit of a gamble (sometimes this will cause a round of combat to take longer than posting in initiative order) but I believe that once we get to know each other's playstyle we'll be able to make combat run smoothly. I'd be willing to try this out for a little while at least, so long as you're all comfortable with it.
On XP: It appears that everyone seems okay with a “level by story progression system”. I think we should be running with this. I also like the idea of role playing bonus XP but that doesn't seem to work in this format. Maybe hero points would be a more effective award?
On XP bonus alternatives:I have an idea I've used in the past. There are so many unused feats that realistically will never be used in this game. Feats that might be thematically appropriate, but don't synergize or are so situational as to never be chosen. How about using them as bonus awards. GM chooses the feats based on the situation and character. It is a small bonus that will add color to character but not much power. I've used it in table-top before and it works great. It just requires good judgement on the GMs side to not use feats directly tied to a character's build.
I liked to award teamwork feats when two characters pulled off something awesome together so they might continue to try those kind of tactics.
Just a thought.
Well as long as proper initiative can be maintained and anything that's gonna cause potential problems (such as a LG character killing civilians or killing the person we're supposed to keep alive because of ignoring what was happening) can solved efficiently, then I'll be fine with that. I think I can say for at least a few of us that we don't want to be told what we supposedly did because a person decided their character went first and all the sudden confuse the GM with false actions (had that happen to me and I said oh hell no). And the same for a caster to lay down an AoE spell and then be told that they killed a target not meant to be killed because it some how got misconstrued that the targets weren't going to be in the blast (almost had one a sorcerer try to do the plan ahead move which would've wound up killing civilians).
The large warrior had informed them prior to the arrival of the sheriff that he did indeed kill the man that lay before them, but he claimed that it was because the man had planned to sabotage the mill, and so he continued giving a detailed account of what happened he even offered to show them where the man had broken into the mill. Unlike his men though Sheriff Hemlock was not so easily ensnared by the web of lies the man had laid prior to his arrival, he quickly made to put the scoundrel in chains but was stopped by Scarnetti who not only defended the man's lie but actually criticized him and his guards for not doing their job.
A meeting at Scarnetti's mansion swiftly changed Karl's opinion of the noble, who he thought to be a simpleton for buying his bluff, in fact Titus didn't only see through it but was actually somewhat impressed by it. What followed this meeting was a few separate job offers that Scarnetti presented to him as a test of his abilities, and when he saw that Karl's performance was adequate, he arranged employment that was a bit more long term.
Two years had passed since then and Karl was once more on the receiving end of the mistrustful gazes of the people of Sandpoint. His rumored unscrupulous activities were no longer the sole reason though, whispers of him working for Scarnetti also played a part in further alienating Karl from the law abiding citizens of the town he considered both his bloody, clue filled alley and his not so welcoming dwelling.
I welcome any opinions and criticisms.
On Alternative XP Bonuses
Well, instead of XP, good RPing might have other benefits? Just as friends are more likely to help you, there could be rewards in the form of items, benefits, reputation, things like that?
Our wizard makes an excellent point as well. I've yet to see bonus feats being awarded for RPing, and it sounds interesting.
On Backstory
The Stoat and his bear can usually be found lounging around in The Rusty Dragon, half-inebriated and acting as a bouncer. He came to Sandpoint sometime after the great fire, and is known for being under Ameiko's employ and occasionally working as a sellsword.
I think it's time to think about how our characters would have interacted with each other before the start of the campaign.
As for backstory, V'Thamuus is a newcomer to Sandpoint. I expect him to arrive just as the festival is getting started. He has been in Kaer Maga for the last three months working as a junior scroll scribe for the Arcanist's Circle. His first likely contact will be Nar'a, he is very interested in local magics, and she exemplifies the practice here in Sandpoint. Plus they share an apostrophe. (We've got to stick together.)
He'll take in the sights and purchase the herbs he was sent for from the local alchemist.
RP Rewards:
Feats seem an awfully big prize. If you even consider that road, they need to be VERY RARE rewards. To me, RP is the point (not that I always get it right, but, you know) and the richer story is the reward for doing that right. Proper consequences can be very positive, though. New-made friends providing discounts, minor gifts, or making things available that they don't show others. You can be a hero and not liked, you know . . .. Heck, making an enemy and getting a chance to give him what-for in public can be a nice reward, too! Back in the day, major living campaigns used to give out die bump awards to the people who helped everybody else enjoy themselves more. A simple +/- 1 to a D20, used after a roll when the player desires can be an amazing thing, and as long as you can't use more than 1 a roll, even getting several per level provides only minimal mechanical problems.
Backstory:
Gudada used to be a local boy. He fled town about 5 years ago, actually, so he should look familiar to the old-timers in Sandpoint. He's been back for (roughly) a month, and was tending his mother on her death bed. until nearly 2 weeks ago. Before then he may have been encountered at the alchemist/herbalist/apothecary, or at the market buying basic foodstuffs. After that, he's been spending more time at the taverns than he had been at the alchemist/herbalist/apothecary, or working with the priests to see to the final arrangements for his mother, but he's been spending time brooding.
When he's been at the taverns, if a group of Varisians show up Gudada buys them a round, gives a toast in Varisian, pours it out, and leaves.
Before the gang of urchins fled Sandpoint about 5 years ago, they had interactions with Scarnetti. So far 'Dada has avoided him, but he's expecting the man to try to establish a business arrangement. Not that 'Dada's particularly interested in accepting one.
Rewards for good RPing can span from Hero Points or some equivalent there of, special consideration for requests, magical items, feats, gold, resurrections, to anything else the GM can come up with.
Oh. Traits are another option. Less powerful than feats. Less likely to be broken, since trait bonuses don't stack.
I'd agree with Forlona. If you're looking a game mechanics instead of xp, then traits are a good way to go. The one and only instance of giving a feat would be a story feat, but it's gotta match the character.
If the reward is for good roleplaying, I'd suggest keeping the reward in-game ( such as a discount at the merchant or extra bit of information from a npc) rather than a mechanical advantage like a trail/feat/die adjustment.
Forlorna certainly wouldn't object to information. Other characters might not find lore or favors or secrets as enticing, but the she-elf wouldn't object to such things. Particularly info for blackmailing party members :P
His task for the Circle was much more easily accomplished than V'Thamuus expected. It is now obvious that the task was little more than an inconvenient errand, not the demonstration of trust and responsibility he saw it as. Nisk Tander took his order and the writ of payment and promised to have it delivered with the next caravan to Kaer Maga. The alchemist dashed his last hopes when he dismissed V'Thamuus's suggestion he would safeguard the supplies to Kear Maga himself. There really was no need to laugh.
With a few days left till a local celebration, V'Thamuus sees no need for a hurried trip back to Kaer Maga and work no more satisfying that that he used to do for Uncle. Perhaps here in the hinterlands he can find evidence of the ruins his father must have sought years before. For all the outer signs of ancient Tathassalonia, the parts of Kaer Maga he could reach were too modern; strange, but too built up and covered by present day lives to give up the secrets of the past.
"Come, Moninga." V'Thamuus gestures to his companion and last tie to home. "Let us see what magics we can eke from here. I believe I saw a local soothsayers as we came into town. Maybe he or she can give me direction to my destiny."
A short walk brings him to a simple hut. He raps on the door and waits to see if the occupant has time to see him.
Much of my character I included with my application post. But yes, Forlorna would be a newcomer to the town of Sandpoint.
I'm kinda hoping that we get started soon so that we don't have to start playing here lol
@Steward : Nar'a and Stewart will definately know each other as Nar'a is good friend with Amieko and will have hung out at Ameiko's tavern quite a bit.
@Thim:
After a few moments, the door opens to reveal a slight Shoanti woman who stands, blinking at the man on her doorstep. She says in her heavily accented common "May I help you?" A hawk perches on a lintel behind the woman, glaring fiercely.
@Gudada: Probably noticed each other in Ameiko's tavern
@Karl: Nar'a had a dalliance with a Scarnetti relative ( son, nephew ?) that incurred Titus' displeasure. Perhaps, he's had Karl keep tabs on Nar'a? As you've been in town for more than a year, she'd more than likely know of Karl in any case.
@Nar'a: I'll have to wait to see if Minkers is okay with the addition to the back story before I agree to anything.
to Nar'a
A young man stands before you. His dark skin and bright clothes in an odd style mark him as from the far south.
Thim beams a bright smile, and glances down at a strange lizard hopping from foot to foot at his side. It gives a short hiss and bright folds open at each side of its head. "Stop that, Moninga. We have come to learn." He turns back to the woman at the door and with the formality of the young pretending to be old, "I wish to know why my destiny has brought me to this town. My father had great respect and interest in the magics of this land. Please show me my fortunes and your powers. If invited he steps inside.
Has anyone heard from the DM since monday? I fear this isn't going to happen.
I think it is way too early to be worrying Dolarre, lets give Minkers sometime, people getting unexpectedly busy or losing access to the internet without warning isn't uncommon.
Forgive any seeming impatience. I don't have much experience with play by post. If this is common, all involved have my apologies.
Not having heard anything from him since Monday is not a good sign, but nobody's walked away, yet. Hopefully no one will feel the need to.
I have had a previous game end before it actually began. Very frustrating.
I'm hoping this will prove to be a fluke, and things will flow afterwards.
I'm in no rush. College has just started up for me, so I appreciate having time to relax.
Yea... it's been over a week and we've barely even heard of him. I'm thinking I'll just drop out.
Yeah, count me out too. No response on the board or by PM. I hope to see folks elsewhere.
Like Forlorna I am in no hurry, so I am going to stick around.
Well, I am still watching the thread, but I have moved it from my "in progress" list to my "recruiting" list.
NOW it has been a week and roughly 6 hours.
I am still watching the thread, but I have little hope at this point.
And tomorrow is 2 weeks since we've heard anything from the GM.
I'm out.