And now I'm waiting for the hammer to drop...
Also dont forget the Leman Russ' Maneuverability* rating of -10 guys! (even though both of you passed it hard enough for it to not matter like it did with me)
*pg. 215 OW Core.
Hi guys, I am going on vacations starting this tuesday.
I am venturing into the depths of the Scottish Highlands – boy did I longed for that - for two full weeks (plus travel time).
Our far-off cottage is said to have (slow&unstable) wifi so I may be able to drop a couple of posts, but don't expect especially lengthy or regular posts until the 3rd July from me.
I don't know how things will play out once we settled in, maybe I will be very active, maybe I will not show up at all during the time.
Once I am back, that should be the last major interruption of activity for about the rest of the year from my side - so please bear with me once more and we will pick up speed afterwards in earnest.
I do not have words for the envy! :) Have a great time and share some pictures when you get back.
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Today is the third of July. #needyMcNeederson
I am back.
What a magical place - wow.
Had to do a lot of unpacking and shopping today - as well as a bit gaming (three weeks a lot of time after all!)...
I'll be operational by tomorrow :-)
Good to hear that the vacay was a successful one!
Am ready and waiting on my end.
GoW: "So, where did we leave off? Ahhhh right, the part where every single one of them dies horribly through that barrage."
*g*
Yeah I am reading up a fair bit, but I think you're not, due to your nice call (and FP spent) of master enginseer.
The others ... well, they'll soon get to know whether the Emperor truly protects or not...
:-)
Damage numbers for the guns are in here. A couple pages back, I think.
Illustration of the star I'm talking about
.
-- Sa --
Di -- In ------------- Unknowns/impact points
-- Re --
--
--
---------------260ish appraching
This way we have three main guns and three las cannons on the larger contacts; one invictus sponson and both Requium sponson on on the larger targets; and the DI, when it gets here, covering our butts from a swarm from behind with it's triple flamers that don't care about accuracy. DI will also use it's main gun to fire between the Invictus and Requium toward the 270's-300's or between the Salvus and Invictus in the 30's-60's when a target presents itself. When it gets here.
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@Drivers: Unless otherwise noted, you don't have to roll an operate test to drive the tank, you simply do.
Examples for when you do have to roll a test: (see page 272f)
- Jink (Dodge for vehicles)
- Ramming
- Evasive Manoeuvring (making a hard target off yourself but imposes BS penalties for own attacks as well)
- Floor It (breaking the speed limit, additional movement beyond your vehicles double-movement speed)
- Careful driving (the area is mined/full of deep craters/obstacles)
@Bekka: Yes you would roll Line-Up extra (or only that one, if your other driving does not call for one).
@Weapon Damage: Don't hold yourself up with those atm since we are
a) in kind of a cinematic mode and
b) I use my own numbers under the hood to try them out anyway
... so simply roll your attacks and watch the firework (or rather see the contact blibs disappear from the auspex atm) ;-)
Waiting for Psi to post before bringing us forward.
@Kersin: Certainly yes.
Keep in mind that many vehicle guns are usually considered fully braced (+15) by default.
Mhhh, interesting question about the speakers.
A horn - sure.
If you where in an APC I wouldn't think as hard about it.
But this is a pure battletank...
***Processing***
Meh, anyway, I think it would be silly not to have it aboard.
Go with it.
@Choon you COULD argue that commanding your OWN squad should be your daily routine - and routine skill tests are at +10. The +0 we usually do are 'difficult' tests.
I remember a table for commanding people which had various levels of being under your authority in it - from being under your command to being on from an enemy faction - which had people directly under you at +30 even. I think that's a memory from dark heresy tho and I couldn't find it doing a quick skim of my copy(not that that's saying much considering how badly the rulebooks are organized) so I don't think you'll get THAT much but +10 for us being your usual victims errr subordinates might not be too much to ask ; )
Be it so argued! I'd love to not fail at snapping you out of fear due to small arms fire...
Thud needs to meet this tank commander. :)
Hmm, I think I got a bit carried away with this initial fight - gj improvising this on-the-fly.
Can I hear some voices how it feels for you guys?
If you enjoy the show I will continue to play out this fight round-based as I do now - otherwise I will narrate through it at a faster, cinematic pace giving you the highlights and collect a few rolls to see how well the Emperor protects.
I'm good with either. I think this was supposed to be a bit of a playtest for your weapon damage rules wasn't it? Are you good with how they've played out?
Still doing number crunching and not entirely convinced that my new armour system is working out like I had hoped (I think I went a bit far and made it too complex for comfort, so I am working about toning it down a bit atm).
Other parts of my reworks play out fine as far as I can tell.
So one thing I am quite satisfied with is the shift from DC-based attacks to opposed tests.
You'd roll your attack opposed to your targets defence (e.g. currently you roll your attacks against the Ork pilots' operate skill (but usually against dodge/parry).
I will supply you with their current defence in most cases, so you can simply roll both die and immediately describe the results, rather than waiting for me to roll their dodge test (or decide that they don't dodge because they use their reactions for something else).
Opposed tests allow for a far greater range of possible outcomes (epic aimed attack vs epic dodge, a miss turned to a hit because your opponents 'dodges' right into your attack, a not-so-nimble dodge is just enough as the attacker didn't aim well enough in the first place, etc.)
It feels more dynamic than a simple DC system.
If you learn a feat that would have granted you an additional evasive reaction in the vanilla version, you will get one reroll of an evasive action per round instead.
I'm having a lot of fun complaining at people for damaging my machines but the format of a tank fight does not seem to agree with me very well.
I currently don't see a gunner making much contribution to the fight aside from choosing HE or penetrating rounds and throwing in the stats to roll the hits with.
(Psi seems to be doing a lot more for the mission tech-priesting, which is good and fun, but could be argued keeps him from firing the big oomph of the tank, so I might switch out with one of the side-gun npcs after all. Given a chance of course)
Being in a ditch is kinda a bummer, but I'm still looking forward to every post. It's true that tank combat is less... Involved. If you want to hurry us along I won't complain. This just feels like warm-up anyway. Entertaining warm-up, but still.
And having opposed tests has seemed interesting so far. A bit more random and chaotic. Without the nuts and bolts I can't say more than that. :)
I think opposed tests vs flat DCs always comes back to whether you want combat to feel more interactive or streamlined. There's plenty to recommend both approaches and it comes down purely to preference.
Right now I think the overall trend is towards more simplified.
There is something to be said, in my opinion, for a streamlined approach on play by post. Especially if the players are doing a lot of the math. If the action is mainly on the GM's side, and the GM is fluent in that complexity, then it shouldn't slow things up very much. However, if the players are responsible for the complexity, and they aren't very fluent in it , then you leave open a lot of opportunity for confusion and for inefficiency. And inefficiency in play by post is a bad thing.
Keep the responses coming, input is a good thing!
Actually, I tend to be in the camp of anti-simplification.
Simply because it usually prevents depth of options and (at least for me) makes it harder to get a mental image what is actually going on.
A big part of the complexity (what evasive boni do apply to the target) would be handled by me.
So my new-round posts will contain a list of enemies (you know of) and a number [43] behind them, indicating their total evasive value.
To attack that enemy, you would roll 2d100. The first roll is your attack, the second the targets evasion.
If you get more DoS than the enemy you hit.
If the targets fails harder than you, you hit as well.
Does this make sense? Too complex for people's liking?
It's certainly worth a shot.
I'm willing to give it a shot. You can't know how well something works until dice hit the table. Metaphorically.
Though, to be fair, I'm probably not going to be rolling a lot of those. I'm mainly going to be the one telling everyone else what to shoot at.
Yeah I'm willing to give it a shot.
I am generally in the camp of simplification. But I do like the narrative value of the opposed rolling, so I am willing to give it a shot.
I don't mind either way with the opposed tests. There is just one argument about it which has convinced me not to use opposed tests in my games anymore and I'd like to at least throw that in for conversations sake:
The dodge and parry skill loses a lot of its worth when opposing tests are used.
This sounds crazy at first because naturally you'd need even more dodge to successfully keep your character alive - and it is true. For a combat oriented Character that is.
Combat oriented characters already have good dodge to stay alive in what they do best.
The thing is about less combat oriented characters.
Learning Dodge or even going to Dodge+10/+20 is a very worthwhile investment if you will save your characters live at that DC. If, let's say you have a crap Agi with 20 and Dodge +20(pretty expensive in ep terms already) you'll dodge at +40.
Now if you use the same logic with opposed tests - does it really make any difference whether you dodge at +20 or +40 if a combat oriented enemy attacks you with an aimed, braced attack with base WS/BS of ~50? Let's say full circumstance bonus rolling against 110 - rolling under 90 or under 70. You're very VERY dead either way.
The world just got a lot more deadly for not-combat-monsters
That is perfectly right of course.
I encountered that during my thinking as well and it lead me to three thoughts:
1. "Well, if you are not a combat trained meatbag and in the scope of a well placed and trained combatant with enough time for a good aim... you ought to be in trouble."
Given, that thought is a bit ... grimdark.
What are we playing again ...? ;-)
2. "If I go down that route, there has to be actions available that increases your evasion skill, just like there are actions that increase your offensive skills."
So, there will be an action available to actively make yourself a hard target that will work like aiming (spent more actions for bigger boni).
3. "The aim and bracing actions are simply too good, as they are offering only boni without real mechanical drawbacks - beside spending an action."
So, there must be some kind of drawbacks for aiming/bracing to make them less of a no-brainer in combat. I intend to give both actions a penalty to your evasive skill, since they require concentration and can only be done if remaining (mostly) stationary - as opposed to moving around like a mouse when a bird of prey is circling.
In the end, I want to achieve a situation where equally matched combatants have an about even chance for hitting each other (rather than hitting each other every time if they are good or missing each other for minutes if they are unskilled).
In my mind, this will put even greater emphasis on searching for that additional edge (using the environment, doubling up with your ally, taking the high ground...) and make our fights more dynamic and entertaining.
> So, there will be an action available to actively make yourself a hard target
I think you're thinking of guarded action: Half action. -10Ws/BS (self), +10 all evasion tests
And maybe defensive stance. A bit off an odd one: Full action, +1 reaction, -20WS against you
I used those when Mr Commissar was up against the Ork with the 2 handed axe that wanted to see what 2x half a Commissar looks like
> So, there must be some kind of drawbacks for aiming/bracing to make them less of a no-brainer in combat.
I agree. On the other hand I think we also need to focus a bit more on cover and its benefits. We sometimes had the situation that you either got hit or you didn't, even through cover.
As I understand the RAW it should be check the target area as usual - if its in cover add the cover bonus.
I'd certainly take -100 to dodge if it means only my head sticks out behind the braced gun but the enemy hitting anything else has the +30something armor from the concrete block i'm hiding behind
Makes the talents aimed at called shots a lot more useful as well
@Defensive Action:
- Yes, I think I will merge those two and look over the total bonus they provide against the usual boni provided by aiming/bracing to balance them out.
- Plus I will add a phrase, that you can do those actions as part of movement (but it reduce your total speed by half or something) to increase the dynamic of fights
@Cover:
Yes, I work on that too. The problem is that RAW cover is very low compared to PEN & damage values of many guns.
Since I planned to rework pen & damage & armour anyway, cover is on that list as well.
I am still not satisfied with it though.
It might be useful for ease of use to be in different modes? Aggressive, standard, guarded, Full defense, for example that gives appropriate bonuses and penalties?
Of course a weapon without a bs or ws roll might be imbalanced as they ignore bs penalty. But things like Flamers are specialty weapons anyway.
This is a quite interesting idea.
I will look into it.
And yeah, flamers are a difficult chapter ^^
All this discussing of dodge and cover and I think, Thud, 'ol buddy, better put some more armor on that shield and sharpen your chainsword. Things are about to get DANGEROUS.
You will note that unnatural toughness (and fury for that matter) will be quite helpful in that regard.
Thud'dr has the same problem as Orks (and big 'nids) after all, and I do not intend to make funny one-shot puppies out of them either.
You WILL be hit often - actually MORE often than before - but you will also be able to take more hits than anybody else around.
At least, that's my intend ^^
That's fine by me. :)
You said unnatural toughness and strength can be improved with XP, ya?
Yup.
Just like a psyker would raise his psi rating.
That means I'll be upping BS, WS, UnToughness, UnStr, real Toughness, real Str, in addition to talents and things related to the Ecclisiarchy.
Man, that's a lot of things I need to invest in.... And some of them will be hey expensive to increase.
When can we transiting into things like Bon'e'head. 1500 xp I think was quoted earlier.
Hey guys, on vacation for two weeks. Sporadic posting at best until the 8th of August. Will try though. IN any case bot as needed.
Good to know Tark.
@All: Mums b'day and busy workday = no big post today. Sorry to keep you waiting.
Oh! Just remembered that I got tracers! All these shots are at +5!
Maybe you want to see Thud'dr to meet Bartholomeo (Dies Irae priest commander) but I want to see a mission with Thud'dr and Psi ;-)
Yes. Oh Emperor yes!
xD that'll be interesting. Might not end healthy for one of them tho - Wielding tank doors as shields and patching together multiple different patterns of armor to fit an Orgryn is not something a tech priest can just overlook mind you =3
(I don't think Psi can hold back his b~*!#ing long enough to actually report it tho. More likely he'd start b~!!$ing and get a tank-door-shield to the head for being anoying)
... on the other hand, he could be the one performing the Bone'Ead cybernetic implanting process on him ;-)
(Which btw, I think more of an RP reward than an actual specialization but I have to look into that a bit more first)
Ahh, I forgot that Felix is on vacation...
Will bot her tomorrow, time is running short today.