General Discussion: Kineticist

I also found it strange there was a level requirement for the extra wild talent feat. There is no such requirement for the other "extra class feature" feats except maybe what level that ability becomes available to the class.

This looks like a hold over from the original warlock feat for extra invocations. That one limited you to picking a extra power that was one tier lower then what your max is.

What we found s far(IMO):

Damage:
Is very low at the moment, mostly at low levels.

I have to disagree with this point, the general consensus seems to be that blast damage is fine until roughly level 7 or so. Until level 5, the base damage is pretty par for anything that isn't a 2-handed Barbarian and at 5 you get a nice boost with Empower to carry you for a few levels. The problem is that mid-high level builds REQUIRE Kinetic Whip for iterative/vital strike shenanigans to stay competitive with all those full-attacking real martials.

I probably missed this elsewhere in the thread, but can weapon focus and similar feats be taken for the catch-all Kinetic Blast, or do they have to be more specific?

I probably missed this elsewhere in the thread, but can weapon focus and similar feats be taken for the catch-all Kinetic Blast, or do they have to be more specific?

It has not been clarified, and needs to be.

So ehhhh, basically you're stuck with 1st level powers until 16th. Since there are no 4th level talents.

Neat.

Here's one thing I can suggest without a big huge major overhaul of core mechanics that would help a ton: Stop with the weird level locks of expanded Kineticist options. Like the Extra Wild Talent Feat (why limit what level of Talents you can get?), and this.

There are certainly 4th level talents, e.g. Firesight, Torrent, Impale. It refers to the level of the talent, not the level you need to be to get the talent on the prerequisite line.

Kaio-Ken

Prerequisites: Power Level 9001
Benefit: For each half-hour you scream and grunt inarticulately, the GM plays out a cut-scene with other characters reacting to your power charge. When you release this charge, if you charged for at least 1 hour, reduce your total burn by 2 and you can apply your available metakineses twice. If you charged for at least 8 hours, reduce your total burn by 4, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses three times. If you charged for at least 24 hours, reduce your total burn by 6, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses four times. If you charged for at least 72 hours, reduce your total burn by 8, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses five times. If you charged for at least 168 hours (1 full week), reduce your total burn by 10, you can ignore your per-round limit on burn and you can double the normal limit of 3+Constitution modifier on burn, and you can apply your available metakineses six times.

Damn Power Level 9001 requirement, I was going to use this to buff my Defenses at the beginning of the day.

I finished comparing two versions of my strength based geokineticist. both focus on melee, but can blast with fire if needed.

One was focused on using a Nodachi while in melee.

The other focused on using a Kinetic Blade

Both options seem equally viable, and comparable to DEX builds, with a modest DPR advantage to Kinetic Blade.

A customizable kinetic form... now that might be something...

A tail, fiery hair, grow large and furry, ..

Nah I'm just joking...

Or am I?

I'd also like to throw my chip in on "kinetic form does not actually change you from your real body, just gives you stats as if you did".

Removing the level requirements on a bunch of Kineticist options would be great, too. As it stands, the Geokineticist is heavily limited by the fact that your kinetic form only boosts strength. It's impossible to ever pick a kinetic form for a different element if your primary is earth so... that kinda sucks for people wanting to hurl rocks around.

And another thing: could we make Expanded Element available at level one? It would help alleviate the issues with some elements only being able to do one type of blast. You could leave Composite Blasts as a level 7 class feature.

I'd also like to throw my chip in on "kinetic form does not actually change you from your real body, just gives you stats as if you did".

Removing the level requirements on a bunch of Kineticist options would be great, too. As it stands, the Geokineticist is heavily limited by the fact that your kinetic form only boosts strength. It's impossible to ever pick a kinetic form for a different element if your primary is earth so... that kinda sucks for people wanting to hurl rocks around.

And another thing: could we make Expanded Element available at level one? It would help alleviate the issues with some elements only being able to do one type of blast. You could leave Composite Blasts as a level 7 class feature.

I agree, I see no particular reason to limit Expanded Element at all, if someone wants their simple blasts to hit with all the elements then they are welcome to. It comes at the cost of not having as many other talents that improve said simple blasts.

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

I've updated and expanded the test gauntlet now that I'm not on midnight brain. This is the White Fire Gauntlet.

Mark, can you possibly examine this gauntlet and let me know if it's reasonably in line with a stress test of a class? Is there any situation you'd like to add to it, or recommendations on alternate monsters or wording? Not really your job, I know, but I'd like a little feedback on the feedback, since I'm hoping many of the classes here will be running this Gauntlet it makes sense for you to be able to determine some of how it functions, so you can gather the best information from it.

Especially since you seem to be reaching different conclusions than many people here about the accuracy of this class, and I'm sure there's plenty of other areas where you and a playtester are seeing two different things. Also, feel free to run your own characters through, if you want to show them off!

Hmm... Seems most Iconics are 1, 7, or 12. I've based all these combats off the wrong level to be compatible with that. I may just have to build my own, or reverse engineer them.

I'm not understanding how the interaction of Expanded Element works with Kinetic Form.

I've seen many folks here post Kinetic form builds at 10th where they switch elemental types on the fly.

How is that possible?

Under Expanded Element it states:

Expanded Element wrote:

You gain one of that element’s simple blast wild talents that you do not already possess, if any. You also gain all composite blasts whose prerequisites you meet.
If your chosen element is different than your primary element, you can learn 1st-level wild talents from that element. At 10th level, you can learn 4th-level wild talents from that element. At 16th level, you can learn 6th-level wild talents from that element...

And Kinetic Form

Kinetic Form wrote:

...
Element air, earth, fire, or water; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th

If you start with say Aether(telekinetic) and at 7th pick up Expanded Element (Water), you now qualify for the 6th level Wild Talent Kinetic Form at 10th? How did that happen since by RAW (if I'm reading this right) you would only qualify for 4th level powers from that element at 10th and Kinetic Form is 6th?

Or if you start with Water and pick up Air at 7th, you now can change into an Air Elemental at 10th with Kinetic Form(Water)?

That doesn't appear to be what RAW states...but maybe I'm reading this wrong. The *only* abilities explicitly mentioned are simple and composite blasts...not having the other element's Wild Talents being treated as your primary level.

I mean it would be nice to be to switch back and forth to different forms (water for con/swim, air for dex/fly) and such at 10th level.

Kinetic Form never specifies that it requires you to select a single element. There is no "Kinetic Form (Water)", just Kinetic Form. So, as a 10th level Hydrokineticist, Arashi qualifies for Kinetic Form-- it's listed under the talents for Water at that level. However, Kinetic Form itself specifies "any of the elements you possess". Hence, Air is a legal choice, since at level 7 he took Expanded Element for Air.

Your first example, a Telekineticist who picks up Water with Expanded Element, does not qualify. This is because a 10th level Telekineticist can't take Kinetic Form, and his Water element doesn't qualify to take 10th level Talents either.

But so long as you can qualify with your primary element, the RAW on Kinetic Form is any element you have.

I'd also like to throw my chip in on "kinetic form does not actually change you from your real body, just gives you stats as if you did".

Removing the level requirements on a bunch of Kineticist options would be great, too. As it stands, the Geokineticist is heavily limited by the fact that your kinetic form only boosts strength. It's impossible to ever pick a kinetic form for a different element if your primary is earth so... that kinda sucks for people wanting to hurl rocks around.

And another thing: could we make Expanded Element available at level one? It would help alleviate the issues with some elements only being able to do one type of blast. You could leave Composite Blasts as a level 7 class feature.

How is it impossible to ever pick a Kinetic Form for a different element? Unless you intentionally don't pick up another element, or go Earth/Aether, but that's a choice, not a mechanical enforcement.

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

I've updated and expanded the test gauntlet now that I'm not on midnight brain. This is the White Fire Gauntlet.

This should help us to establish baselines in numerous areas of play. I hope it answers some questions about the functionality of different classes!
I should be back later on to post at least 1 Iconic character being run through it, if I can find a level 10 Iconic sheet. Shouldn't be too hard to manage.

Mark, can you possibly examine this gauntlet and let me know if it's reasonably in line with a stress test of a class? Is there any situation you'd like to add to it, or recommendations on alternate monsters or wording? Not really your job, I know, but I'd like a little feedback on the feedback, since I'm hoping many of the classes here will be running this Gauntlet it makes sense for you to be able to determine some of how it functions, so you can gather the best information from it.

Especially since you seem to be reaching different conclusions than many people here about the accuracy of this class, and I'm sure there's plenty of other areas where you and a playtester are seeing two different things. Also, feel free to run your own characters through, if you want to show them off!

The doozy, for me, is something I think I mentioned really early in one of these playtest threads. It matters a lot more to me how well a character can handle things in a group, not solo (note that it isn't all positive to be in a group; being in a group sometimes will actually weaken a strategy, for instance, kestral's excellent "fly out of melee reach" strategy will lead to other group members being killed if not everyone can do it, and party members can harm stealth, etc).

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

My heavily optimized Geokineticist who does take all of that stuff has a 90% chance to hit with the blast against equal CR enemies, so... I pretty much agree.

How is it impossible to ever pick a Kinetic Form for a different element? Unless you intentionally don't pick up another element, or go Earth/Aether, but that's a choice, not a mechanical enforcement.

Because of this:

If your chosen element is different than your primary element, you can learn 1st-level wild talents from that

element. At 10th level, you can learn 4th-level wild talents
from that element. At 16th level, you can learn 6th-level wild
talents from that element.

Kinetic Form is a 10th level talent so you cannot take it with your expanded element. I didn't notice it at first either, had to entirely rework my character into primary air secondary earth to fix it...

The doozy, for me, is something I think I mentioned really early in one of these playtest threads. It matters a lot more to me how well a character can handle things in a group, not solo (note that it isn't all positive to be in a group; being in a group sometimes will actually weaken a strategy, for instance, kestral's excellent "fly out of melee reach" strategy will lead to other group members being killed if not everyone can do it, and party members can harm stealth, etc).

Hmmm... Perhaps a better way to examine this situation then would be to remove the time restriction on the fights, and set a standard team of 4 Iconics, to make this a functional party, with room for 1 additional character to be tested. According to the CR Chart, a team of 5 lvl 7's will mean I can leave the Mook challenges as the are, and they'll still be a CR+3 Epic challenge. Hard, but not impossible, especially since the APL is good for 4 or 5 players and we're using 5. Would you recommend a particular group to have our playtest dummies alongside? I'm thinking Valeros, Seoni, Harsk and Seelah, for DPS/Magic/Range/Healashield. Does this feel fair?

Mark Seifter wrote:

The doozy, for me, is something I think I mentioned really early in one of these playtest threads. It matters a lot more to me how well a character can handle things in a group, not solo (note that it isn't all positive to be in a group; being in a group sometimes will actually weaken a strategy, for instance, kestral's excellent "fly out of melee reach" strategy will lead to other group members being killed if not everyone can do it, and party members can harm stealth, etc).

Hmmm... Perhaps a better way to examine this situation then would be to remove the time restriction on the fights, and set a standard team of 4 Iconics, to make this a functional party, with room for 1 additional character to be tested. According to the CR Chart, a team of 5 lvl 7's will mean I can leave the Mook challenges as the are, and they'll still be a CR+3 Epic challenge. Hard, but not impossible, especially since the APL is good for 4 or 5 players and we're using 5. Would you recommend a particular group to have our playtest dummies alongside? I'm thinking Valeros, Seoni, Harsk and Seelah, for DPS/Magic/Range/Healashield. Does this feel fair?

4 standard + new character is fairly scientific in my mind. I did that with magus during the UM playtest long ago, running a 1-7 PFS scenario 15 times (each time I replaced the magus for one of the five PCs, fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue, and bard, I think, and at all three subtiers).

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.

Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

CR 11 Adult Black Dragon: AC 28 (32 after mage armor) => 60% (40%) hit chance, has DR 5/magic (which you bypass)
CR 11 Ash Giant: AC 25 => 75% hit chance, no DR
CR 11 Mute Hag: AC 24 => 80% hit chance, has DR 10/cold iron and magic
CR 11 Moon-Beast: AC 25 => 75% hit chance, has DR 10/piercing or slashing (which you bypass)
CR 11 Elder Water Elemental: AC 24 => 80% hit chance, has DR 10/-
CR 12 Adult Green Dragon: AC 27 (31 after shield) => 65% (45%) hit chance, has DR 5/magic (which you bypass)
CR 12 Clockwork Golem: AC 26 => 70% hit chance, has DR 10/adamantine
CR 12 Lich: AC 23 (27 after shield) => 85% (65%), has DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (which you bypass)
CR 12 Coloxus Demon: AC 26 => 70% hit chance, has DR 10/good
CR 13 Alraune: AC 27 => 65% hit chance, no DR
CR 13 Ghaele Azata: AC 28 => 60% hit chance, DR 10/cold iron and evil
CR 13 Thanadaemon: AC 27 => 65% hit chance, DR 10/good
CR 13 Iron Golem: AC 28 => 60% hit chance, DR 15/adamantine
CR 13 Adult Void Dragon: AC 29 (33 with mage armor) => 55% (35%), has DR 5/magic (which you bypass)

Looks like you should expect somewhere between 80% to 60% hit chance (with iteratives being 25% lower). Roughly half of the creatures in this sample have DR that you can't bypass (at lvl 12 you should do 6d6+11 so ~32 damage, which means DR 5 lowers your output to around 82% and DR 10 lowers it to around 68%).

After doing this exercise I think that the kineticists to hit at level 12 is in line with what I would expect. Just by adding Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus you can increase the hit percentage to 90 - 70%, which seems reasonable to me. The real problem that I see is the lack of damage. VS the elder water elemental it would take ~7 rounds to kill it. Even with empower it would take ~4 rounds. And that is a CR 11 monster! Either the kineticist needs more damage or more utility at higher levels (hopefully both)

EDIT: Forgot that FtB adds damage as well. The average damage increases to 36.

Shiroi wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

The doozy, for me, is something I think I mentioned really early in one of these playtest threads. It matters a lot more to me how well a character can handle things in a group, not solo (note that it isn't all positive to be in a group; being in a group sometimes will actually weaken a strategy, for instance, kestral's excellent "fly out of melee reach" strategy will lead to other group members being killed if not everyone can do it, and party members can harm stealth, etc).

Hmmm... Perhaps a better way to examine this situation then would be to remove the time restriction on the fights, and set a standard team of 4 Iconics, to make this a functional party, with room for 1 additional character to be tested. According to the CR Chart, a team of 5 lvl 7's will mean I can leave the Mook challenges as the are, and they'll still be a CR+3 Epic challenge. Hard, but not impossible, especially since the APL is good for 4 or 5 players and we're using 5. Would you recommend a particular group to have our playtest dummies alongside? I'm thinking Valeros, Seoni, Harsk and Seelah, for DPS/Magic/Range/Healashield. Does this feel fair?

4 standard + new character is fairly scientific in my mind. I did that with magus during the UM playtest long ago, running a 1-7 PFS scenario 15 times (each time I replaced the magus for one of the five PCs, fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue, and bard, I think, and at all three subtiers).

I've made some adjustments to that thread, so with luck we'll see a reasonable crop of results from it. I won't be able to run it immediately on one of my builds, but I'll try to get to it this afternoon or tomorrow.

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

For ranged attacks, it's fire blast or nothing, but at 13, he would be using Ride the Blast even if his opponent were fire immune or vulnerable to fire.

Jason Robbs wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

Yeah it looks like I was too conservative (used base 18 dex, +3 levels, +2 from belt for 23 => +6). Regardless my point stands - the kineticist doesn't have problems hitting at level 12 even with a more conservative build and assuming that you max feel the burn.

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Robbs wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

Yeah it looks like I was too conservative (used base 18 dex, +3 levels, +2 from belt for 23 => +6). Regardless my point stands - the kineticist doesn't have problems hitting at level 12 even with a more conservative build and assuming that you max feel the burn.

So I'm wondering, then, where the strong sentiment that it does is coming from? I think everyone more-or-less agreed its accuracy was fine at lower levels, before it starts falling more behind in BAB. And my playtests back my own math (in fact, the accuracy on the iteratives is rather high, even). Plus you and I were pretty conservative, Jason. So what all were the people fighting when they kept missing all the time? Or did they roll super-terribly all the time? I need to know how this could be so I can make sure I have the accuracy where it should be in the final version.

Jason Robbs wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Robbs wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

Yeah it looks like I was too conservative (used base 18 dex, +3 levels, +2 from belt for 23 => +6). Regardless my point stands - the kineticist doesn't have problems hitting at level 12 even with a more conservative build and assuming that you max feel the burn.

So I'm wondering, then, where the strong sentiment that it does is coming from? I think everyone more-or-less agreed its accuracy was fine at lower levels, before it starts falling more behind in BAB. And my playtests back my own math. Plus you and I were pretty conservative, Jason. So what all were the people fighting when they kept missing all the time? Or did they roll super-terribly all the time?

Its the kineticist + FtB = rogue + magic weapon analogy (with the implication that the rogue has a hard time hitting so the kineticist must have that problem too). If you replaced the kineticist with a rogue in my above example the rogue would have the same percentages which goes to prove that the hit chance isn't the problem.

I think the accuracy "issue" is about perception and privilege, not real numbers or playtesting.

To a lot of people, they don't care what the actual accuracy is, only that the kineticist isn't "shorted" some attack bonuses that other similar classes get. It doesn't matter that most classes actually have more accuracy on their first attack than is necessary or helpful.

People see low dpr (and I think you know, Mark, that this is the case) and just jump at the problem shared by the other weak classes like monk and rogue that lack dpr. Those classes really have sufficient accuracy for one attack to land, they just both have to and can't afford to take penalties to hit and land iteratives to compete.

In this case, though, it's definitely damage that's short, not accuracy.

I am running my hydrokineticist through shiroi's suggested playtest challenge now and having no trouble. I have 18 to hit (just need a 3 for those centipedes) and they can't touch me (38 AC and the low wall blocks their trample). But, it's taking too long to kill these things, even hitting every round. I will post a full report when I come up with an alternate build to compete against.

But yeah, top priorities for me:
1) Damage!
2) More Wild Talents and/or separate blast infusions from utility powers
3) Unlock extra wild talent from the level limit

Mark Seifter wrote:

Jason Robbs wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Robbs wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

Yeah it looks like I was too conservative (used base 18 dex, +3 levels, +2 from belt for 23 => +6). Regardless my point stands - the kineticist doesn't have problems hitting at level 12 even with a more conservative build and assuming that you max feel the burn.

So I'm wondering, then, where the strong sentiment that it does is coming from? I think everyone more-or-less agreed its accuracy was fine at lower levels, before it starts falling more behind in BAB. And my playtests back my own math. Plus you and I were pretty conservative, Jason. So what all were the people fighting when they kept missing all the time? Or did they roll super-terribly all the time?

Its the kineticist + FtB = rogue + magic weapon analogy. If you replaced the kineticist with a rogue in my above example the rogue would hit just as well which goes to prove that the hit chance isn't the problem.

I see. Well, yeah, I even feel like I could have just not used FtB and been fine, with more HP if I wanted. Especially if I had taken magnetic blast, which at that level I totally could have if I wanted.

Kolokotroni wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.

Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.

26 dex at level with just a +4 item? Unless he's a goblin, that seems rather high unless you have a rather generous stat generation, or your con isnt all that great. I can definately see having more success with a dex that High then i'd expect at my group. Starting stats over 17 are rare (and expicately forbidden in the game I myself run), so your character's dex mod is probably 3 higher then someoen in my group would be at the same level. Thats the difference between 3/4 and full bab at that level.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.

Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.

26 dex at level with just a +4 item? Unless he's a goblin, that seems rather high unless you have a rather generous stat generation, or your con isnt all that great. I can definately see having more success with a dex that High then i'd expect at my group. Starting stats over 17 are rare (and expicately forbidden in the game I myself run), so your character's dex mod is probably 3 higher then someoen in my group would be at the same level. Thats the difference between 3/4 and full bab at that level.

Started with 17 + 2 human. Then put all stat raises into Dex. Yes, my Con was only 20. I would imagine that my Dex would at worst be 24. Do your players give themselves lower stats than the elite array? Even the elite array can pull 24 by level 13 with a +4 item.

I still highly advocate a "Burn Pool" of sorts, that one can use before they start needing to take damage.

A quick test at level 17:

12 BAB + 5 FtB + 9 dex (18 start + 4 levels + 6 item) = +26 to hit before extras (WF, PBS etc.)

CR 16 to CR 19 averages AC 31 to AC 35 which means a hit chance of 80% to 60% which is in line with the level 12 test. With some simple items/feats you can achieve 90%+ accuracy.

I think the accuracy "issue" is about perception and privilege, not real numbers or playtesting.

To a lot of people, they don't care what the actual accuracy is, only that the kineticist isn't "shorted" some attack bonuses that other similar classes get. It doesn't matter that most classes actually have more accuracy on their first attack than is necessary or helpful.

People see low dpr (and I think you know, Mark, that this is the case) and just jump at the problem shared by the other weak classes like monk and rogue that lack dpr. Those classes really have sufficient accuracy for one attack to land, they just both have to and can't afford to take penalties to hit and land iteratives to compete.

In this case, though, it's definitely damage that's short, not accuracy.

I am running my hydrokineticist through shiroi's suggested playtest challenge now and having no trouble. I have 18 to hit (just need a 3 for those centipedes) and they can't touch me (38 AC and the low wall blocks their trample). But, it's taking too long to kill these things, even hitting every round. I will post a full report when I come up with an alternate build to compete against.

But yeah, top priorities for me:
1) Damage!
2) More Wild Talents and/or separate blast infusions from utility powers
3) Unlock extra wild talent from the level limit

By the way, I certainly agree that damage could use some tweaks. In fact, I was counting on it. Other than the concerning reports about accuracy that didn't seem right, everything else in the playtest has been more-or-less what I wanted and expected to see. It's much easier to have you guys do your best to make awesome DPR machines with a conservative version of the class and then add to the damage if I'm right, keep it the same if you find a loophole or other interaction I didn't than it is to give y'all something I think does enough damage assuming I found everything and then have to take things away if I didn't. This playtest so far just means I found everything successfully when I did my own simulations, so I can be safe to add more! :)

Probably comes from people not wanting to require Fuel the Burn in order to hit. If you didn't max FtB, your chance to hit drops substantially, which is a big deal because people don't want to have to require dropping their HP by (level*ftb cap) in order to hit.

Is your intention to make the Kineticist as accurate as the Rogue? Because that's where he currently stands as FtB roughly equals that of the Rogue's weapon enhancement bonus.

menacing aomf

Thats pretty clever... Next time I have a melee character that is in need of an amulet I know what to buy

Jason Robbs wrote:

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Robbs wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?

Does your geokinetist (at level 12) have something like 9 (bab) + 4 (FtB) + 6 (dex) = +19 to hit? Vs a random selection of CR 11-13 enemies:

I will say that at 11th level, my strength based geokineticist has +21/+13 to-hit with his Kinetic Blade. Simple level progression would put this to +24/+16 at 13th level.

10 BAB + 9 STR +4 FTB +1 WF = +24

Yeah it looks like I was too conservative (used base 18 dex, +3 levels, +2 from belt for 23 => +6). Regardless my point stands - the kineticist doesn't have problems hitting at level 12 even with a more conservative build and assuming that you max feel the burn.

So I'm wondering, then, where the strong sentiment that it does is coming from? I think everyone more-or-less agreed its accuracy was fine at lower levels, before it starts falling more behind in BAB. And my playtests back my own math (in fact, the accuracy on the iteratives is rather high, even). Plus you and I were pretty conservative, Jason. So what all were the people fighting when they kept missing all the time? Or did they roll super-terribly all the time? I need to know how this could be so I can make sure I have the accuracy where it should be in the final version.

I think from a couple places:

1. If you compare it against other primary combatants, the +to hit is much lower. Many dms (including some of the ones I play with) will adjust to the strengths of the party. So if say the fighter is hitting on anything but a 1, in the next session he will have higher AC enemies. A kineticist cant keep up in that situation, since not only does the fighter have full bab, he has lots of rooms for feats, and magic weapons as well as class features to add to hit (just about all combat focused classes have these sorts of benefits in some fashion).

2. Feel the burn. This is obviously dependend on how much burn you do or dont take early on. If you take it early, then you get that benefit for most of the encounters, but some people wont spend limited resources like this immediately if they dont have to. Many adventures follow a sort of easy fight, moderate fight, hard fight pattern of some sort. Its entirely possible some of them dont have feel the burn maxed for a significant portion of the day.

3. Stats. Your stats are fairly high compared to some tables. If someone goes by the AP default 15 point buy, and the dm doesnt allow custome treasure, you dont have a 26 dex. You probably have closer to a 20 dex, maybe less if you cant get a hold of a dex/con belt.