Okies. This is a good place to stop and have a conversation. I had this encounter for 2 player reasons 1/ To get you guys to RP and bond. Lots of 'loner' types here. Hopefully RP + Combat will get you more loyal to each other and set up some good foundation for friendship. 2/ Shake out the combat rules and let you see how it works, INCLUDING combat manuevers without the AoOs (unless you fail) and, I hope, show you that you are pretty tough compared to Jonny NPC. There is a 3rd reason but that is a private DM thing.
We need to look at three things. Armed v. Unarmed in weapon definitions, the damage rules and finally perception and reality in being armed.
1/
The 'armed' v 'unarmed' first...
If we read the descriptions in Armoured Gauntlet - it says you can do lethal damage but that it counts as an Unarmed attack. If we read spiked guantlet, it says it counts as 'Armed'.
The difference for these statements is because pulling off combat maneuvers such as disarm, have modifiers based on 'armed' and 'unarmed' and AoO's are only possible when 'armed'.
Lets get to the Cestus.
While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.
It also gives you an option to change the damage type to Piercing.
That said, it inflicts normal hitpoints - not non lethal as the unarmed strike does.
This is not the weapon to hit someone with if you want to avoid killing someone.
The difference is in how likely it is to inflict a crit and trying at all costs to inflict a lethal injury - hence the -4. In Roman days when this weapon was invented? They WANTED to kill or cripple their opponents.
We'll come back to this later.
2/
Non lethal dmg vs. Lethal dmg or rather HP vs Injury damage.
All damage is HP damage which returns after 10 mins or so. For purposes of game play? Its non lethal. Your responses to damage would be ducks, blocks, fatigue etc.
Exceptions are crits, failed saves OR those times when you drop beneath 0 hps - the lethal blow. You are no tougher than a man on the street - a sword to the gut will drop you. The difference is that abstract quality of hitpoints - you are better at avoiding that lethal thrust for longer is all.
Injury damage we can call 'lethal' damage - it needs a cleric or a healer and then bed rest to make right.
"Why use -4 at all then? If I don't crit then the guy is going to take something he can walk off later, right?"
Yep - thats the case.
You roll, you hit, you DON'T do enough to drop him under 0 - narratively, what you've done is something LIKE a hilt smash to the face or a flat stunning edge across the forearm, or a shallow cut on the hand or leg or cheek or something like that - you are setting them up for the killing blow.
But remember that these guys are squishier. A somewhat lucky roll, lets say 7 damage for arguments sake may be enough to drop him to -1. If that happens then what you've done is run him through or that arm cut hit an artery or something like that. Its gonna need a priest or healer.
A crit has the same effect and given these guys is a) more likely to drop them from sheer overall damage and b) will require a healer if it isn't lethal.
Your curve blade is gonna do 1d10 damage plus dex with the right feat. Odds are, you are going to really REALLY mess him up.
Your cestus? Not so much - even if you hit for max damage, depending on his hp's, you may just REALLY hurt him rather than injure him. If you do lethal damage, its not gonna be by much. Maybe someone can stablise him or he stabilises on his own. It is also LESS likely to crit.
"What benefit does this -4 give then?" It goes to non lethal damage AND if you do drop him going into negatives? He automatically stabilises... none of that "Please stop bleeding!!" stuff. He's messed up, maybe broken ribs or something and he's gonna need some help to get better but he isn't going to die...
3/ Perception vs Reality on Armed Vs Unarmed
"So what about the guy with the home made mace?" Yep. You got me.
What about the dwarf they know is armed with a mace under the bar? :)
But thats just tit for tat nonsense.
Game Reality is that your cestus is also 'armed' and if any of these guys have Improved Unarmed Strike? Yep - they are 'armed' too.
But in RP or Narrative terms, if it gets down to police statements or stories about about what happened (remember no police here but you do have that coachman... and the barmaid), who's going to be the 'badguy'? Its gonna be the guy who drew a sword and started using it... even if he was bruising ppl up with it. After the battle, when its discovered all he did was break bones and wind people with it? (Ala Samurai X) people 'might' second think the situation.
Also perception is different when you don't have the home field advantage - You (think yourself the player not the character) have a fight with some bar regulars in a strange bar? Odds are that you will be the one painted or seen in a negative light.
A knife is going to be seen as bad but less 'bad' than a sword. A club less 'bad' than a mace. Its a perception thing.
Here? In game? These guys are a-holes. No one is going to stick up for them... unless you kill someone. But its a backwater place without even a local law enforcement presence and they were in the wrong etc etc. If you do? It may not be something to come back and bite you.
So stick with me for now, lets shake these rules out. If they don't work after a while I'll change them but trust me for a moment - I am not doing these things to mechanically screw you. I am doing this to test and see if we can maintain consistency within the HP vs Injury rule Set.
I am not a Me vs Them GM. I don't need to 'win' an encounter
I am having a blast so far. Keep up the great work little scary bear man!
In my defense, I was attempting to make the fascinate work better by not pissing them off after Lament started. Vigilance wasn't going to stand by either way... whoops.Haha! Thanks for defending me. I am an innocent flower! I think it was going to come to this anyway. I cursed us with the 1 on my diplomacy.
Haha. It wasn't about defending Lament so much as their threatening to break the law. He's not that kind of good guy.
I was hoping it would get to blows. Had you guys finessed your way through it with some good rolls, I'd have given you an out without the combat, but as it was, I wanted you to test the combat system in a low risk situation.
As Simeon said there is a professional and domestic dispute playing out here. Those are VERY hard to diffuse.
Had you been willing to let things run their course the Elf scared them into at least not messing with you though some NASTY stuff would have happened to the barman and barmaid
not seeing much of a map on Roll20- just avatars and overheads on a blank grid?
GM, could one use Hand of the Apprentice to throw an improvised weapon like a mug or plate ?
EDIT also , I don't see a map per se in roll20, just white.
EDIT ninja'd by the holy man :)
Map fixed and Simeon, sure you can but just use the improved weapon modifier... I believe its a -4.
cool. I placed myself at the bar where I was asking for a blanket. Also asking for something bigger than a teacup for tossing.
throw your action up priest :)
Are you cool with narrating cestus damage as occasionally including kicks, knees or elbows as long as the mechanics don't change?
With improved unarmed strike rather than a Cestus strike you can do as you wish... With the Cetus, narratively a fist blow seems more likely but if you want the odd diversion? sure. Have on. I liked the solid punch to the jaw narrative.
I understand, which is why I asked. I'll keep it to a minimum.
Ok - so Your APL is 4 (5 level 1 - 4). The dwarf takes it up to 4.33
that was a CR -2 encounter (2 warriors, 1st and a 2nd, 2 commoners 1st and a level 1 rogue).
Why do I point this out? Because level 1 and level 2 is largely what you'll be facing when it comes to people. Not all people but the majority of people. Thats the backdrop of what makes you EPIC by level 6-7. By level 3 Baradlon will be able to solo such an encounter (maybe resorting to deadly force) but I want you to reflect on that by level 3, you can be, in effect, Steven Seagal... esp. if you have Imp. Unarmed Strike, which allows an AoO if fighting an untrained unarmed opponent.
Fighting BBEGs and their top draw and middle draw minons? that will be another matter as will be the supernatural.
You've also seen how the system works. I am hoping it grows on you.
Guys I got 36 hours to put together a comprehensive site support contract - a task that nominially takes weeks. Will be not posting for about 2 days.
Sorry bro. Good luck. No hurry.
The rest of you want to keep RPing? Build some team unity?
Yikes, that sounds like too much fun !
My condolences :)
I got some time free - I'll throw this up for n0w and see when I can follow it up.
Awaiting further developments...
DA DA DAAAA!
No! no further developments ! nooooooooo!
:)
Sorry - side tracked by the wife and home renovations.
Lets talk now about 'Mental Stability'.
What I am going to do know is introduce you to the sanity rules.
Martial characters (which includes rogues [Investigators too] in this case) have more resistance to physical perils and a bonus ( + 2 ) to resist, and stability losses from such effects are treated as one step lower meaning that they can ignore seeing a mundane dead body, blood etc. Likewise characters with magical ability and experiences gain a bonus ( + 2 ) against supernatural threats, and treat them as one step lower.
So in this case I am going to call for an UNADJUSTED Save for the situation. Make a save at will at the following category.
Shocking
A more terrifying visage like that of a mutilated corpse, witnessing a scary supernatural event, or being in physical or mental peril has a DC of 13 and a stability loss of 1d4. This is the usual check for normal combat or being subjected to harmful magic. Large numbers of humanoid monsters etc, individual or small groups of corporeal undead, supernatural, hideous or large monsters may qualify for this category.
If you fail the save roll d4 and remove that many san or stability points. These come back gradually. Depending on the loss being a '1' or '2' you will recover that by the time you arrive at Ravengro.
Mechanically what has happened to the girl? She's seen her fathers corpse (and the messed up face), rolled at a higher category than you and lost a buttload of stability.
My inspire courage should add bonuses to these rolls during combat right?
Nice roll - yep, you are good to go.
Its not in combat but in combat? Sure. Read the rules as well... if someone becomes shaken you can try to snap them out of it.
Try to keep rolls in the game thread. Also post your characters reaction (in light of making or failing the save).
So, I only skimmed the insanity rules. They seemed too complicated, so I figured I'm let them play out and learn that way. How many sanity points do we start out with?
Final notes before we start the push to Ravensgro.
What I hope I have done here is set the narrative and 'reality' base lines for you as well as show cased some of the house rules. Mundane flunkies can be handled with some challenge which will only grow easier, how combat works (including deadly crits), fear of the night, unknown supernatural terrors and their likely lethality and the mental stability rules.
Let me know if you have any issues with the game style, how the game is shaping etc.
I'd like to maintain a steady posting rate if possible. If there are likely to be issues with that let us know and never be afraid of posting 'I stand watching' or something similar for when you want to signal you are in game but don't want do anything - lets me know I can move on or post inner monologue or post on the discussion thread - in fact thats the venue for 'table talk' where you can talk as players and discuss theories, best courses of action, the metagame stuff etc.
The more active we try to be the easier it is to make sure this game is a long running and successful one.
So, I only skimmed the insanity rules. They seemed too complicated, so I figured I'm let them play out and learn that way. How many sanity points do we start out with?
Starting Stability
All characters have a stability score of 10 + Will Save OR level (minimum 10). Stability checks are considered to Fear Saves.
There at the top of the page.
Edited my will save post to include RPing reaction. Lament is a little bit of a sicko.
Heh :)
I think you're setting the sanity bar a bit too low if we'll be saving every time we find a dismembered corpse.
In my game, death and undeath are pretty typical things for a fairly gritty Freeport setting. My players lose sanity specifically from fear effects and outsiders. The points are much harder to recover, however. To be honest my players are half-crazy most of the time anyway, but two PCs have gone off the deep end. One has been fixed, but one's still off his rocker.
In case you're curious, here's what I use. It's pretty close to the Freeport system:
Occult knowledge is a catch-all similar to bardic knowledge with regards to planar, aberrations, cults, etc. You may add half your IP score to your INT modifier to make an untrained check for anything that might fall under Occult Knowledge.
Insanity points result in an affliction that can be major or minor. In times of stress a Will Save DC 10+IP is required to act normally. Institutionalization can heal IPs. Lesser restoration has no effect on insanity, but Restoration cures IP up to the caster level. Greater restoration, Heal, Limited wish, Miracle, or Wish immediately cures a target of all insanity.
Good point. I'll look at that - I am planing on dropping it the hit with more 'experience' you have with this sort of thing.
That said this is good feedback for the play test.
Edit: oooooh - nice.
Hope you don't mind me showing almost no difference between "sane" Vigilance and insane Vigilance.
No objections at all. In fact I like the inner daemon angle.
I'll rethink the sanity system based on Voodoo Chilli's observation. That said we'll keep it for now and I'll throw something out there later.
Baradlon, have a look at the status bars of the others and add San or Stability to it as well/
I already did as soon as I took Stability damage and knew what my starting score was.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my recent spoiler for vigilance I've given him some data that is actually best provided by Baradlon and his tracking ability. In future I'll be more mindful about how character synergies can work best together so that more characters can have a role in each scene so to speak.
That said if Baradlon wants to do some tracking it wouldn't hurt, and give him a chance to use a class feature.
I'm not worried about it. Baradlon doesn't care what happened (or rather thinks he already knows). He's more concerned with getting to young Kendra to make sure she's okay. He's not equipped to deal with something like this and knows it.
Final thing. As we are not 'formally' in the AP so to speak, any changes you want to make to your characters, including moving stats around, changing skills or getting equipment can all be made now.
Have a final look at your characters and if you want to make changes, feel free.
Guess that I should mention that it's SPRING BREAK! I'll be traveling and camping so posting will be spotty this week. Not great timing with the start of things, but 'bot me when needed.
I don't read the gripe threads. They are usually the domain of folks that don't understand balance and want to be good at everything. Fighters ought to be the best fighters, rogues have skills. If everyone gets full BAB, what's the point of being a fighter? more feats maybe, but I think you'd really have to recalibrate the whole game.
The only non-full BAB class that I think ought to have full BAB is the monk only because there are SOOO many feats that have to require +x BAB OR x-level monk clause. It also makes no sense that flurry is full BAB while BAB isn't. Making them full BAB and -2 flurry would be far more consistent.
but to your question- I think the rogue is fine as is. If folks want a more skill based fighter, play a ranger.
I don't read the gripe threads. They are usually the domain of folks that don't understand balance and want to be good at everything. Fighters ought to be the best fighters, rogues have skills. If everyone gets full BAB, what's the point of being a fighter? more feats maybe, but I think you'd really have to recalibrate the whole game.
The only non-full BAB class that I think ought to have full BAB is the monk only because there are SOOO many feats that have to require +x BAB OR x-level monk clause. It also makes no sense that flurry is full BAB while BAB isn't. Making them full BAB and -2 flurry would be far more consistent.
but to your question- I think the rogue is fine as is. If folks want a more skill based fighter, play a ranger.
Or a Slayer. They are pretty damn good. Not quite the same social skill range as the Rogue but you can get some good customization from them that makes them very rogue like with only minor investment in a flexible class choice ala Ranger (best done at level 4).
Yeah, I like rogues and I don't expect them to hit like DPR beasts but there is so much negativity out there that at times its hard to get someone to play them.
That said? I am guilty of not having a single PFS rogue character and have about 17 of them.
I'm 1:3 for PFS characters with Rog levels so we're covered. ; )
I just go with what fits the concept and don't worry about the crunch.
I'm sure there is many out there much more dedicated/obsessed with mechanics , I guess that's why the gripe threads exist.
I'm like Voodoo, what ever the concept is...I go with. I don't worry about what my damage per round ratio may be 10 levels from now...doing so just takes all of the fun out of it.
Rogue is for dipping, or specialized builds in my opinion. I've never played a straight rogue in Pathfinder past level 2 or 3. However if they were full BAB I would play them like 90% of the time. Ninja with vanishing trick is different. I've played them and had fun before.
Full BAB would make rogues totally badass. It would make your high str rogue hit like a fighter, with 8 skills/level and sneak attack when they can get it. Not to mention evasion, etc. It would flip the equation from full BAB+rogue dip=awesome to full rogue+fighter/ranger/barbarian dip=awesome. That's my two cents anyway.
Why play a stupid fighter with 2 skill points when my rogue can have a two handed weapon and power attack at level 1?
You'll love the slayer from the Adv. Class Guide then.
I do like slayer, a lot. But I still might dip it. It goes really well with barbarian.
I guess there is rarely a character I play who sticks with one class. Basically only full casters.
TallyHo!
If I don't hear from Vigilance in the next 6-7 hours I am posting and moving ahead.
Also I'd like to pick up the pace some and have a game where we can get 2-3 posts in a day (ooc or ic - just keeping the goodness flowing). We are, by and large, hitting this already - I will take stuff into account like summer camp/illness/work etc.
Finally I am seriously considering the addition of another player - Lady Ladile put in a good pitch despite being relatively new to the PbP here on the Paizo forums. I believe she already games in a Serpent Skull PbP with two of the players already in game.
I will tweak the game a bit but I think you are lacking somewhat on the melee side and with character strength low-ish for many of you (10 or so), definitely on the Armour/tank front. Vigilance has some good strength (14 is v.solid in a 15pt game) but he's a light armour guy without spending proficiencies and light on Con as well.
What say you to another player?
If she makes a melee/armored character, I'm all for it, especially if she likes to RP!
I would love to rock 3+ posts a day!
Sure bring her in!
As for posting, it all depends on the day...work, little ones etc.. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depending on the changes you've made to the AP I think we'd be fine with four (my group has six, and they've steamrolled most of the encounters up to the middle of book two). Adding a fifth player should depend on that player's posting frequency. Go into their profile, look at the number of posts they have and how often they post. If they are a daily poster with a history of posting, then sure. Otherwise adding another person will just slow things down.
Speaking of that, how are you going to handle the massive amount of incorporeal bad guys in the AP with the lower magic aspect? Are you switching them out for something else? Providing us with magic weapons anyway and just saying we're more awesome than everyone else? Some other way I'm not thinking of? Or are we bound for a long chain of boring twenty round long encounters where we have no effective way to damage things and constantly getting our rears handed to us by everything that goes bump in the night?
I'm having the problems in my group in the middle of book two right now, with the combats just dragging on and on because of the incorporeal stuff. It's totally boring, so I'm having to like fast forward through huge chunks and whole combats just to keep the game moving. And they all have magic weapons, holy water, etc. But no cleric. Maybe that will make a big difference in this group.
I think I'm going to bow out. I am available to post 2-3 times a day, but it seems like every time I can, no one else is. Then I end up holding people up the days I am gone most of the time and end up posting late. (On days I travel like today.)
Never the twain shall meet. Yada yada.