Greetings everyone. I'll get the starship options posted here shortly, but for now, please dot in with your avatar so we can begin the discussion about building your ship.
Also, here is my plan in terms of how the scenes are going to flow:
We're going to start with a space battle, then a tactical battle, then a chase, followed by another tactical battle, before finishing up with a "Boss" style battle. When we're finished overall, I would like to get everyone's feedback on ways to improve the various subsystems that we encountered, as well as what you felt was good and bad about both your race and class.
Half surprised to be here, when I saw how much effort the other guy had put into Shantidas my heart sank. Anyway, this is my dot.
Hi guys. Looking forward to the game.
GM Vrog: Right now I am playing Xera as a level 1 character in another game. Are you happy with the way I have set up the character (with a Level 1 and Level 10 spoiler?) Or do I need to set up a separate alias?
Edit: Made a couple of tweaks. Skill Synergy does not stack with the bonus for connection skills (they are both insight bonuses) so I switched it to the Spell Focus feat. Also tweaked ability scores a little bit.
I also want to swap out the force field from my armor for a couple cybernetic things.
Sounds good, Vrog! Like Xera, I've got a 1st level version of Loram (and in her adventure as well!), but I switched up the name a bit so they are two separate aliases.
Here as well.
Level 10. 270 build points for a ship. Does anyone have a particular concept they want to aim for - a science vessel, or an ex-military ship, a commercial vessel, something experimental and high-tech, or whatever?
Sounds good, Vrog! Like Xera, I've got a 1st level version of Loram (and in her adventure as well!), but I switched up the name a bit so they are two separate aliases.
Since it's the same character and this is a one-shot adventure I'd prefer to just have a single Avatar, but I could make a second one if necessary.
Level 10. 270 build points for a ship. Does anyone have a particular concept they want to aim for - a science vessel, or an ex-military ship, a commercial vessel, something experimental and high-tech, or whatever?
Since Xera is a worshipper of Besmara, her vote will be for a Privateer!
"Avast lads! There's an Azzy merchanter off the starboard bow! Prepare to board, me hearties!"
Presumably a Privateer would be mainly a warship but with a decent amount of cargo space (for storing plundered booty). Might also make periodic merchant runs to make her booty seem like it might have legit origin.
I'm not sure if any nation-states issue Letters of Marque (or their equivalent) or not in the campaign universe, but it would be convenient if they did. :)
So... that'd be something fast, with a gravity gun to try and immobilise targets. And probably another weapon with more oomph, assuming we have 2+ would-be gunners. Which means at least medium size - probably an explorer, though a transport is possible. If it's an explorer the 4 expansion bays might go to guest quarters, a cargo bay, maybe a smuggler's compartment and maybe a sealed environment chamber if anything needs to be transported in unusual conditions. A transport would have another expansion bay - maybe a medical bay or an arcane lab.
Deneth will be OK with privateering but not piracy, I should mention.
Loram would be more interested in an exploration vessel with some military build as well. He is an effective gunner, and can man the big gun for the ship (probably a heavy turret or something). Deneth's breakdown sounds good to me.
Here's my idea of what an exploration vessel which has been upgunned to something more military/privateering in use might look like. Those two ideas above are more or less compatible at this point.
If anyone has suggestions or other ideas, fire away. This is one idea in its second draft, not a final version.
G'day. Still level 1 equipment Wraith?
I'm not sure that we'll be engaging in trade since there's no such system in the core book that I saw. Trying a quick conversion to a transport - the ships HP (not the shields which stay at 140) go from 75 to 100, the turn distance goes from 1 to 2 and the piloting bonus drops from +1 to 0. And we get another cargo bay of course. We also end up with an unused light weapon mount in the front arc unless something else gets cut to free up BP/PCU.
I like the explorer better - but what do you think?
Okay, guys, as far as the question about avatars goes, I am fine with Xera using the same avatar as her level 1 incarnation. Just note that I might end up looking at the wrong stats, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Next up, as stated in the initial post, I am looking to have one of each race and class (thankfully they had exactly seven of each, which made my life easy!).
Here is a breakdown of your group by race:
Android: Xera
Human: Wraith, Deneth
Kasatha: Loram
Lashunta: None Currently
Shirren: Iruaka
Vesk: Raxsortun
Ysoki: Kibbens
and by class:
Envoy: Iruaka
Mechanic: Raxsortun
Mystic: Xera
Operative: Wraith
Solarian: Kibbens
Soldier: Loram
Technomancer: Deneth
So as you can see, I am going to need one of the two Humans to step up and change their race please. I'm fine with allowing you two to work it out yourselves.
As you are working on your ship building, I will give you a bit of background as to the mission you'll be taking part in:
Your ship is part of Lawdogs inc, a subsidiary of AbadarCorp that specializes in hunting down fugitives. You've recently captured a rather impressive bounty, a Vesk warlord by the name of Tolvannik. The bounty for him delivered alive is 10 million credits, with 2.5 million credits paid for his dead body. Your group tracked him and managed to capture him, and now it's just a matter of drifting to the correct system and dropping him off, then getting your credits and being on your way.
Finally, note that when we are finished, I would like feedback regarding your play experience with your class: What you liked, what you felt worked or was good, and what you think needed to be changed, as well as any suggestions for making it better. I want to be able to make good recommendations for new players locally, which is why I am doing this in the first place. I also plan on creating a cheatsheet for space combat and chases to help with play, so I would really appreciate any feedback or suggestions.
What would you cut to get another gun? Armor, thrusters, sensors, downgrade existing weapons, or what?
What would you cut to get another gun? Armor, thrusters, sensors, downgrade existing weapons, or what?
Here's my thoughts:
If we have a pilot, engineer, science officer, and captain, we still have three people to man guns. And the captain and science officer can sometimes switch-hit and switch to being gunners. So we should have a decent number of weapon systems.
THE CATCH: There are seven of us, but the medium ships both have a maximum crew of 6. Which unless the GM wants to house rule a seventh crew position, one of us will be sitting in the lounge watching TV during battles.
1. Put the point weapons in turrets. We want to be able to shoot down missiles no matter what angle they come at us from. Maybe just one heavy laser net instead of two flak throwers. That costs 2 more BP but saves 5 power.
2. Twin-linked gyrolasers port and starboard. Gyrolasers have the broad arc feature so they could fire fore and aft (the only weapons with this feature). They are also cheap.
3. The PPC is arguably the best long-range weapon (35 avg. damage), but the regular particle cannon does almost as much damage (28 avg.) and is a lot cheaper in both power and BP. Have the PC and Gravity gun both face forward.
4. We might be able to manage with a lower computer (Mk. 3 instead of Mk. 4) and if we have point weapons we also might be able to get away with a lower TL since we can shoot down missiles.
5. The explorer frame has less HP but can turn twice as fast. But if we can only seat 6 crew with an explorer, and we are allowed to have a Large ship, it might be better to start with a destroyer. It's more expensive but it already has two heavy mounts up front, so there wouldn't be an upgrade cost. It also has more than double the HP of the explorer, so you wouldn't need as much shields.
I copied your Design sheet and worked it up for a destroyer.
So as you can see, I am going to need one of the two Humans to step up and change their race please. I'm fine with allowing you two to work it out yourselves.
Hard to say who would be better suited to be a Lashunta. My instinct says Deneth but I could be wrong. Deneth would not need telepathic message if he was a Lashunta and could then take mending instead.
But in looking at character sheets I noticed a couple things.
Wraith: Some of your feat choices don't make much sense.
* You have Weapon Specialization at 1st level, but you don't qualify for that feat until you are third level, and then you get it for free in small arms and basic melee. Did you mean Weapon Focus?
* You have Skill Synergy at level 3. Since Operative's Edge grants a bonus to every skill, and Skill Synergy doesn't stack with Operative's Edge, Skill Synergy literally does nothing. I might suggest Deadly Aim for this one instead, or maybe Multiweapon Fighting, since you can make three attacks as part of a full attack.
* It looks like your gear is still 1st level.
Deneth: I don't see any major issues. I think your third level spells should be 5/day instead of 4. You still have some cash left over.
* Enough for another +1 ability enhancemnt
* Since your chance to hit is not as good as the more "fighty" types, you might want an energy weapon that targets EAC instead of KAC. There are a variety of them you can afford.
You guys are just running circles around me with your understanding. I'll read up, but I think I'll be trusting the experts for the most part.
I can make Deneth as a lashunta, sure. I can drop a feat & a skill and add a couple of +2 skill bonuses, and trade out that cantrip. Which sounds bad but I have a great many skills with 24 Int, and losing agile casting isn't that great a cost.
Re multiple personal upgrades: 'Each of your personal upgrades must be a different model number (for example, you cannot have three mk 1 upgrades, but you can have a mk 1, a mk 2, and a mk 3). ' Page 212, top right. Keeping a little cash for unexpected expenses makes sense anyway.
In-character Deneth doesn't trust non-analog weapons; out of character he'll be firing that gun only for covering fire/harrying fire, or to use that 1/day infusion.
The destroyer is interesting. It does seem like a lot of performance to sacrifice for one additional crew member on the bridge, but it can take a lot of punishment. There are a few minor errors - light shields 70 means you have a total of 70 points of shields, Mk 7 armor on a large ship costs 12*4=48 (not 60), the drift engine costs a couple more similarly, L8 thrusters give 8 speed not 10, but none of that changes all that much.
Forums have been down all day, just wanted to say that I'm happy to be here! I'll get some actual thoughts / character sheet up tomorrow.
Re multiple personal upgrades: 'Each of your personal upgrades must be a different model number (for example, you cannot have three mk 1 upgrades, but you can have a mk 1, a mk 2, and a mk 3). ' Page 212, top right. Keeping a little cash for unexpected expenses makes sense anyway.
Totally missed that one!
I'll have to go through and get rid of a few things. Looks like I bought too many.
In-character Deneth doesn't trust non-analog weapons; out of character he'll be firing that gun only for covering fire/harrying fire, or to use that 1/day infusion.
For the record, even a laser pistol is better for covering fire/harrying fire since they still target EAC for this.
If you want to have a distrust of a specific technology, it could be a distrust of chemical explosives (and thus analog weapons) on the basis that heat can cause them to explode (in theory anyway - there's no rule for it in the game).
The destroyer is interesting. It does seem like a lot of performance to sacrifice for one additional crew member on the bridge, but it can take a lot of punishment. There are a few minor errors - light shields 70 means you have a total of 70 points of shields, Mk 7 armor on a large ship costs 12*4=48 (not 60), the drift engine costs a couple more similarly, L8 thrusters give 8 speed not 10, but none of that changes all that much.
Yeah, I whipped that together pretty fast. I'll fix what I can when I get a minute.
The Gyrolasers on the sides might be overkill; they use a lot of power for what they do. Getting rid of them would allow more shields or speed, maybe.
Deneth's reason for distrust is knowing what technomancers can do to non-analog weapons, and it's in his background. Both harrying fire and covering fire target a flat AC 15 by the way. Not EAC or KAC.
The destroyer is interesting.
Yeah, the hit points really sell it for me. I made a few tweaks and updated it.
I had a look at the large freighter. It doesn't have as many HP as the Destroyer but it has three guns facing forward.
It occurred to me that maybe you could ignore armor and defenses and just build as big a shield as you could manage.
So the AC/TL is only 19 (enemy ships will only miss on a 1) but the ship has the "Superior Shields 600" system for an average of 150 shield points per arc. If the engineer diverts power to shields each round that restores 20 points to the shields, and the science officer can juggle the shield energy between shield arcs. If you are smart with the tractor beam you should be able to avoid the primary weapons of the enemy ship sometimes.
The ship has massive firepower forward but at the sides and back there is only the turret. I added a big missile launcher forward.
It's a weird concept but it could work.
The stats are below the destoyer.
The destroyer feels like a big old ship, past its best by date. The heavy freighter feels like something different. Which is good IMO.
Heavy antimatter missiles are slow enough to have a hard time hitting anything though. Speed 8 is the same as the heavy freighter's speed and even speed 6 starships would be able to keep ahead of them for a long time. Also one slow missile at a time won't have a good chance against point defence systems, look up the point weapon quality & how it works.
You need 2 more BP for the drift engine on a large ship. Dropping the antimatter missiles and their heavy mount gives 16 BP back for 14 spare. That could mean a single twin laser on one side, or perhaps a light torpedo in each of the front, port & starboard arcs - not much damage but enough to keep approaching ships wary perhaps.
You guys are just running circles around me with your understanding. I'll read up, but I think I'll be trusting the experts for the most part.
Yeah... I'm in total agreement with you, my friend. Gonna just stay in character here and let the engineers figure out the ship. Just point me to the big gun when it's over! :)
I think the missiles normally have two uses:
1. Make the enemy run from the missile. Aside from the gravity gun, there aren't many ways to interfere with a ship's move, so making an enemy flee from a missile is a kind of battlefield control.
2. As a short range killer. When fired the missile makes its first move in the gunnery phase. If the enemy ship is within range of one move of the missile, then you hit right away (though point weapons still can be used). They may have a long range but normally I think you wouldn't want to use them from too far out.
But the gravity gun means:
3. Shoot the gravity gun and immobilize the enemy. THEN shoot the missile. Hilarity ensues! If you have scanned the enemy ship you may also be able to ensure that the missile strikes from an arc that has no point weapons.
So I've already started making notes! You're right about a seven person table having one person out. Once you guys determine who that person is, we'll find a job for them.
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I'm gonna vote in favor of the destroyer. Combat with everyone missing is just boring, but combat where the science officer AND the Engineer have to do the things to constantly re-balance the shields is exciting!
Also, I should be able to turn the thing, and it'll give me something to do other than just doing Evade all the time.
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Wraith: Some of your feat choices don't make much sense.* You have Weapon Specialization at 1st level, but you don't qualify for that feat until you are third level, and then you get it for free in small arms and basic melee. Did you mean Weapon Focus?
* You have Skill Synergy at level 3. Since Operative's Edge grants a bonus to every skill, and Skill Synergy doesn't stack with Operative's Edge, Skill Synergy literally does nothing. I might suggest Deadly Aim for this one instead, or maybe Multiweapon Fighting, since you can make three attacks as part of a full attack.
* It looks like your gear is still 1st level.
1) Yes, meant Focus.
2) Yeah, I only recently learned about the Synergy's lack of...synergy. I think that's dumb, but, yes, it let's me take something else. I'm actually looking for suggestions from this embarrassment of Feats riches.3) I'm working on that now. ^_^
I'm gonna vote in favor of the destroyer. Combat with everyone missing is just boring, but combat where the science officer AND the Engineer have to do the things to constantly re-balance the shields is exciting!
Also, I should be able to turn the thing, and it'll give me something to do other than just doing Evade all the time.
Sounds fun. Hope we don’t crash and explode too quickly.
So I've already started making notes! You're right about a seven person table having one person out. Once you guys determine who that person is, we'll find a job for them.
A size Large starship gets around the problem by having a max crew of 20. Either the heavy freighter with all the shields, or the destroyer is size Large. If we went with my original fast & nimble explorer design (size Medium) we'd have that problem with the lack of a 7th crew position.
OK, suppose we keep the antimatter missiles Xera. We still need 2 more BP for a Large starship's drift engine. The computer could drop back to a Mk 3 trinode saving 5 BP. That leaves 3 BP - just enough for a set of biometric locks.
I have no problems just sleeping the the pilot's chair. =3
Hey! I was going to be the pilot!
Xera is built to be a pilot specifically. My piloting is +24. The Star Shaman connection gives me bonuses to piloting. I also have the Sky Jockey feat, giving any ship I pilot a +1 to its speed.
I notice a lot of you find the ship design system intimidating. If your ship grew organically from level 1 you probably would probably be old hat with it at level 10.
Deneth: Did you ever play another game with starship construction, like Traveller by any chance?
I used to play that and I figure that's why I don't seem intimidated by the ship design process.
But about the ship...
The destroyer feels like a big old ship, past its best by date. The heavy freighter feels like something different. Which is good IMO.
I wonder, since this is a "test" game, if we should try to come up with something more "normal."
But we could also switch the antimatter missiles to nuclear missiles and that would save us the 2 BP.
Oh yes. Keeping track of volume, mass and crew required as well as price and power use, to 6-7 significant figures for most of those, makes for a truly intimidating system. That was Megatraveller a while back. The versions of Traveller after that toned it back a bit. This is paint by numbers in comparison.
Alternity too could get complicated to the point of needing a dedicated spreadsheet (not just my thrown-up-in-5-minutes job).
If you want maximum normality I think my explorer covers that; Vrog suggested that he'd cover whoever ended up the 7th wheel. I don't think it's necessary though.
Anyway, I think a trinode computer is better - we have quite a few people who we want to give bonuses after all. & biometric locks do seem like a good idea if our role includes taking prisoners which it apparently does.
Feel free to make whatever ship you want to use. I'm more interested in your decisions then worrying about trying to shoehorn you into a specific ship.
I king of wanted a medical bay in the ship also, because, well, just in case. Thought the freighter would be good because it has more expansion bays. But I ran out of money.
If we go with the smaller ship I would go with a transport rather than an explore for this reason and also it has more HP than the explorer.
GM: since there are seven players, could we house rule an extra control position to allow all seven characters to participate in space combat? If 3 BP allows you to add an extra gun position. maybe 3 BP would allow an extra chair and cnosole to be installed on the bridge?
The trinode computer is feasible.
That gravity gun is really expensive but I think it is worth it.
A medical bay is very little different from an advanced medkit. By the way, the only person in the party to have maxed Medicine is the Vesk mechanic, Raxsortun. There are a few others with 1-2 ranks.
The bigger the ship, the less we can afford for it; the smaller, the more we can afford. It's a really simple relationship. The super shield freighter is a partial exception because it can dump armor and tracking defences. I'm fond of it for that reason. Shall we go with the heavy freighter?
Getting into the details of ship building does sound like fun (I have fond memories of Traveler myself, though it's been a damn long time), unfortunately I just don't have the time to invest at the moment. Maybe later this winter I'll take a hard look, especially when my SFS character gains a couple levels.
For the moment, I rather like the idea of a heavy destroyer myself, if it means that we can utilize all 7 players as part of the crew. If the GM is OK with 'house ruling' a crew of 7 into a smaller ship, I prefer the explorer ship option myself.
Thank you to those that are investing time and energy into the ship details! I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of a vessel we wind up with. :)
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the following ship positions are set:
- Xera - Android Mystic - Pilot
- Deneth - Lashunta Technomancer - Science Officer
- Raxsortun - Vesk Mechanic - Engineering
Which leaves the rest of us to run around like chickens, plus one Captain.
- Kibbens - Ysoki Solarian
- Loram - Kasathas Soldier
- "Wraith" - Human Operative
- Iruaka - Shirren Envoy
Given what kind of ship we are as far as our mission, I suspect that Wraith or Loram would be a good fit for being our captain.
GM: since there are seven players, could we house rule an extra control position to allow all seven characters to participate in space combat? If 3 BP allows you to add an extra gun position. maybe 3 BP would allow an extra chair and cnosole to be installed on the bridge?
I think that would be a good solution to allow us some flexibility.
By the way, the only person in the party to have maxed Medicine is the Vesk mechanic, Raxsortun. There are a few others with 1-2 ranks.
I actually have maxed Medicine as well. +20-25
In ship combat the role of captain depends heavily on your social skills. Iruaka will be the most competent captain by a large margin if she can be persuaded to fill that role in a fight. We will probably have enough ship weapons to use 3 gunners; whichever of Xera and Wraith loses the fight to be the pilot can be one of them.
If we get a size large ship then there are up to 20 crew positions available. We're looking at up to 4 designs at the mo: a heavy freighter (size large) with super shields rather than other defences, a destroyer (large) with weak defences but lots of HP, a very average transport (medium) or maybe a fast & nimble explorer with decent defences but few HP (lower end of medium). Either of the last two could be changed to add a 7th crew position if the GM agrees.
I like the heavy freighter best. What do the rest of you like best?
I like the heavy freighter best. What do the rest of you like best?
Aside from the layout of the weapon slots and the HP and number of expansion bays, otherwise the Heavy Freighter frame and the Destroyer Frame are pretty similar. They can both use all 7 people as crew.
Which means if people like the "always gets hit but super shields" concept I could re-do the destroyer that way and see if it works better than the freighter. I do like the concept because if you assume you are always going to get hit then the pilot is free to perform maneuvers other than constantly evading.
As a bunch of adventurers though I think the freighter makes more sense as it can do civilian jobs like transporting cargo much more easily.
I'll get working on that and see how well it works.
Ship Roles:
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the following ship positions are set:
- Xera - Android Mystic - Pilot
- Deneth - Lashunta Technomancer - Science Officer
- Raxsortun - Vesk Mechanic - EngineeringWhich leaves the rest of us to run around like chickens, plus one Captain.
- Kibbens - Ysoki Solarian
- Loram - Kasathas Soldier
- "Wraith" - Human Operative
- Iruaka - Shirren Envoy
Xera was always designed to be a ship pilot. But I am guessing that Xera and Wraith will probably both have the same skill bonuses. Operative's Edge and Mystic Connection both get the same bonus. The difference is that Wraith gets that bonus to all her skills, whereas I get it to only Piloting and Perception.
With our high DEX, both of us would also make great gunners. I am guessing that whichever one of us is not the pilot would be the best one manning the primary gun.
However, Wraith also has a really good Engineering and Computers skill, which means she can also switch-hit into Engineer and Science officer as well. Xera does not have this ability. You can have more than one of each role. Only Pilot and Captain are limited to one person per post.
Kibbens and Loram both have good DEX and will also make good gunners, and they can't really do a lot else. I think Kibbens hasn't bought all his gear yet so his ability boost items may change things for the better for him.
Iruaka doesn't really have anything else she can do on the ship other than act as captain. Her social skills aren't as high as they could be because her CHA is only 18, which is a bit unusual for a CHA-based character at this level. She seems to have spread her points around a lot.
Iruaka: I note that you have put your +2 ability boost item into STR. It doesn't look like you have a carrying capacity issue, so I'm curious as to what that does for you. It would seem like this would be better spent on CHA for you. Gets you a resolve point as well as boosting CHA skills.
The stats will be here.
OK, made some tweaks.
Freighter:
* Switched the computer from Mk 4 Duonode to a Mk 3 Trinode. This saved some BP.
* Got rid of the Arcane Lab
* Ended up with enough power and BP to improve engines to a L10 thruster - the fastest we are allowed.
Destroyer:
* Got rid of armor & defense. AC will be 19, which tier 10 gunners will hit on a 2 or better. Saved a lot of BP.
* Improved shields to Superior Shields 600 (the max)
* Added the same missiles as on the Freighter.
* Was able to improve thrusters to L10.
* Still had spare BP, so improved sensors to Advanced Long Range (best you can get).
* Improved power core to Gateway Ultra. This gives a lot of energy points which aren't needed, but the amount of shield points you can restore is based on your power core.
The destroyer now looks to be a particularly mean beast. The lower cost of the frame and lower cost of upgrading weapons mounts means that aside from cargo capacity she is better in pretty much every aspect. So unless we need the cargo (probably mainly for RP reasons) then the Destroyer looks really good.
I like the looks of the Destroyer!