Alright, Kibbens should be done!
Just wanted to say, happy national turkey genocide day! May your destruction of the evidence be delightful.
Okay, are we ready to continue? Also, as I requested previously, would it be possible for someone to create a map? Nothing too elaborate, but we'll need something.
Here's a map made from an image found on the web, with a couple of icons dropped on it. I don't know whether it's large enough or our relative positions. Also, it's the first time I've made something like this for a PbP so if I've screwed up somewhere let me know.
No worries, and thanks.
I'll get things moved about on it shortly and then we can do our piloting initiative and piloting actions.
Nice map! Only suggestions I'd make is to include small directional arrows or the like to indicate facing for both ships, as well as an indicator as to which one is ours.
New FAQrata out now.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll get the information in the campaign info updated to reflect the correct dcs.
I may have over-optimised for the new DCs. +31 counting the sensors is way overkill. A tier 10 enemy would have to have rating 13 defences to make me fail on a 2 (rating 12 or less is succeed on a 2 or more).
I have the DCs updated. Just waiting on Xera's action.
Anyone heard from Wraith? Last post from that alias was 3 weeks ago.
Is it OK to bot her for this round then?
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As your group may have guessed, we're leaving starship combat to go into ground combat. I'd like to get everyone's opinion of the starship combat system and any ideas you might have to make it a bit easier to run or move more fluidly. I know that we lost a player, but I still want to get everyone's take. (I warned you there would be homework! Muwa haha)
Some roles turn out to be more affected by the degree of optimisation than others. I could have a computers skill 5 points lower without noticing the difference in starship combat, but piloting and gunnery could soak up any and all bonuses you could give them.
As a PbP the multiple phases where the GM needs to post in each and every one will slow things down. If the GM posts once a day that's one round per three days at best. The GM at least could fold the engineering phase into the helm phase (since engineering has nothing that directly affects or is affected by the enemy) which might help.
Since the starship combat is going away, Xera probably needs to reject my presumptuous order and join us for the personal combat that's coming.
I think a regular group that was used to space combat would be able to make checks on their own and move much faster, since aside from initiative none of the checks are opposed.
For the record, presumably somebody would have to remain at the helm of the ship, so we could let Wraith do that while the rest of us prepare to repel boarders.
Well I know I've learned a lot about starship combat in this battle! Just so I'm clear, only one of the gunners can use one of the computer bonuses for one of their guns in any given round?
I agree with Deneth that Engineering and Helm can probably be rolled together in pbp - though I suppose it might cause problems with shield regeneration being made in response to starship movement rather than prior to initiative where it is intended to be. Rolling these two phases together would often give the engineer the advantage of knowing how to replenish shields (depending on facing), whereas if it's done prior to movement, the engineer doesn't know which arc would most benefit - though they could certainly take a guess.
I also think it helps when the players' starship stats are listed as a googledoc (like the map) that everyone can share. Here is an example of that in another game I'm playing (it is Cries from the Drift, I don't think there's much in the way of spoilers if you just look at the first 'map' page and not the others). That way the player (probably the pilot, but anyone with experience) can keep track of the shield strength for each arc (displaying the numbers that will change after hits are taken, shields regenerated and re-distributed) as well as hull points and any 'glitching' starship components (and if repairs are being done) during the various phases so that the players and GM are both fully aware of what condition the ship is in. This would also be a good place for players to track who is using the computer bonuses and in which phase so these very important bonuses don't go to waste.
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So as someone who's been playing/running regularly IRL, I can say that a regular group who plays regularly does 100% affect the flow. I had a starship combat a few weeks go take 40 minutes tops (level 3 characters, Tier 3 v. Tier 4 ship).
My biggest thing with PBP is that there's a lot more metagaming things to worry about if you go out of order - Loram hits it in his paragraph, but I'm also running into it in another PBP where the GM is loose about order, so as captain, I'm constantly stuck with "Do I boost the shot that I saw get rolled already and I'm pretty sure will miss?? Or do I pretend "Oh, my captain was TOTALLY going to boost the other gunner this round" and give my diplo check to the gunner who hasn't rolled yet.
Well I know I've learned a lot about starship combat in this battle! Just so I'm clear, only one of the gunners can use one of the computer bonuses for one of their guns in any given round?
I can't see any reason why a gunner using fire at will couldn't use two separate bonuses, one for each shot, or two different gunners using bonuses. Is that specifically prohibited somewhere?
The main limitation, as I understand it, is there is only one computer bonus allowed per roll.
Yes, it's only one per roll, since it's a named bonus type.
Maybe I misunderstood what the GM was saying then, as I did only use one computer bonus for each roll. As Xera pointed out, Loram was using Fire at Will and so was firing two separate weapons, each with its own attack roll. So I think I was able to do that, correct? And then Wraith used the last computer bonus on her attack. So in all, during the Gunnery phase, two gunners used all three computer bonuses on their total of three attack rolls.
It looked like you said that you were adding the computers bonus twice to Wraith's roll, hence why I said something.
Ah! I see the confusion now, you're right I mis-typed that explanatory bit (I think I'd copied/pasted and forgot to amend it). Sorry for the confusion there, but the roll did only include one bonus of +3.
Okay, a quick breakdown of how I run pbp combat:
First, I don't run with a tactical map, but I will provide an area map that I'll put in the campaign info to give you an idea of the space and obstacles involved.
Secondly, I have everyone post their actions* and then do a summary post and roll anything I need to roll on my end, so once I give the nod that players are up, then you may post as you will. If I don't receive a post from someone within 24 hours during the workweek (Mon-Fri)**, then I will post for that character, using the least amount of resources possible (i.e. I will use a weapon attack before a spell one, unless your only weapons are grenades). I will also do my best to do what your character would do in combat. I used to have players delay, but I accidentally got other characters killed when that happened, so now I just play the character to the best of my ability.
Finally, to keep everything neat, in my summary post I will track all damage dealt, on both sides (So you won't need to track it yourselves, and that way we can keep each other honest).
*: If your target would die, or your action would be invalidated, I will do my best to have you carry on in the spirit of the action you took, and keep your rolls if at all possible
**: I know that it's about to be Christmas, so I will not hold people to this rule this week, but would appreciate it if you could let the group know you're going to be without internet or ability to post.
As always, if you have questions, ask. I'm looking forward to seeing people's impressions of their classes after the first of three fights.
Addendum the first: It looks like you've lost both Wraith and Iruaka. I will scale things to the group that you guys have left (For instance in this fight I pulled out one of the power armor pilots and one of the ??? (some of you know what I'm talking about) >D
Just an FYI guys:
Holiday Plans:
This Friday (i.e. tomorrow), Saturday, Sunday, and Monday I have Christmas events to attend (and I may be busy Tuesday too). I will be travelling for some of that period. I still expect to have internet access and I'll try to get online in that period but my posting frequency may suffer. Wednesday night I will be back home and things will return to normal for me.
Quick note on the map:
As posted, each square is 10'. the two yellow squares are the power armor initial spots; the area at the top of the map is the bridge, and the area at the bottom of the map is the Engineering room (Where Rax is coming from). the two ?? are ??. The A is the android, and the room with the perfectly straight green line is the holding cells (There are actually two of them in there, separated by forcefields).
Haarlock is not currently on the map, as he basically took his weapon belt and fled down the hallway and to the left as you are looking at the picture. Those of you who were monitoring things know that is where the doors were breached. After this combat, we're going into the chase scene, then a pair of combats after that; one with his crew, and one with him.
Sweet! Someone come flank with me!
Come Flank With Me. Sounds like a good name for a song!
Also as a heads up, I'll be gone from Christmas day to at least the third of January. Doing a humanitarian trip to help out less fortunate people.
To all my games, I am going to be leaving tomorrow for a humanitarian trip to help those in need. I will only have access to my smartphone at the time, so I will not be able to post during this time. I estimate my return to the boards in the first week of January.
If I'm a player and you find this absence unfavorable, I understand if you remove me from the game.
If I'm the GM, and you'd rather leave the game if it stalls for this long, I understand your withdrawal.
In either case, message me and we'll get things sorted out.
But I do wish everyone Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Thanks, Kibbens, and I wish you the best of luck on your humanitarian trip!
Hope everyone had a great Christmas.
Back all! Looks like a got a bit of reading, but should be able to jump in soon.
Welcome back!
Okay, I'd like to get people's feedback about how they feel their character handled and the abilities they used, that sort of thing. If you see something that worked or didn't with one of the other classes, let me know that as well.
Even though I know they can be a pain to setup, I do think Starfinder games benefit greatly from maps that allow the characters to position their tokens as needed. Mostly so that they can have a better idea of what abilities and/or feats might come in handy, based on how the tactical situation looks. You can get around this somewhat by using "if x happens, then I'll do y, but if a happens instead, then I'll do b". But that does get difficult sometimes, and at higher levels there are a LOT of abilities and feats that can come into play in any given situation.
I also feel like we mopped up that combat REALLY quickly - not sure if it was just lucky rolls or if the encounter was meant to be fairly easy for the PCs to win.
Hmm... what CR was the encounter?
Xera's most effective action was mind thrust IV, but it felt rather disappointing. Considering I could only ever do 3 of them in a day (and thus didn't want to use it more than once during this fight to save the rest of my level 4 slots for later), it seemed like it ought to have done more. Partly this was because even my most powerful spell had only a 35% chance of beating the target's saving throw.
When I saw that even the big dumb guys were saving at +12 it meant that my lower level spells had a very little chance of doing anything, except for magic missile. Hold person would have been great but had only a 25% chance of sticking, and I didn't think I could afford to spend rounds that had a 1 in 4 chance of a short debuff (since they get to save again later). Command would only work 1 time in 5.
If I put everything I could have into Wisdom (instead of DEX), my saving throws would have been two points more. Still not enough to get me to 50% effectiveness.
Were this Pathfinder my save DC would probably have been about two points higher, or maybe 4 if I optimized completely for a high wisdom. The lower spell levels costs one, and then the lower ability scores costs another. Meanwhile, an equivalent pathfinder enemy would probably have had a Will save of +5 to +8. So it seems like spells that do nothing on a successful save might be a mistake to bother with.
Your saves are not only weaker but you get less spells overall so clearly a spellcaster cannot afford to throw spells every round, even at level 10, unless he is going to throw spells that probably will do nothing.
Mystics also don't seem to have many attack spells that target something other than Will.
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Weapon:
The plasma rifle I have cost me about 10% of my wealth. It is only level 6 and I figured I ought to be able to get away with that. An equivalent level 10 weapon probably would have taken more like 25% of my money.
Which means that carrying multiple weapons with different energy types in case of energy resistance could get really expensive if I was a character type that depended on weapons alone. The character that uses multiple small arms in multiple hands may face a problem in this way.
Which also means players will probably hang on to a lot of weapons they might ordinarily sell, since you only get 10% of your money back for selling them. So it would likely be common to see characters with several weapons that are lower than their level as backups.
When I hit with the plasma rifle, the GM mentioned that some of my damage was not getting through. I would have liked to see a knowledge check of some kind to tell which energy was being blocked. The line ability seemed decent when there were two enemies I could line up with the attack. But hitting two people with one shot was overall comparable to hitting twice with a full attack, so I'm not sure if the ability is as cool as I originally thought, considering an equivalent weapon without the line ability probably would have done 2-5 more average damage per hit.
As a mystic, +14 was the best possible chance to hit I could have unless I took the Weapon Focus feat. I think this makes the weapon focus feat more valuable since there are so few ways to boost your chance to hit.
I imagine most mystics would have lower attack ratings. I maximized DEX because I wanted to be the best possible pilot and also be good at ranged combat. Part of my character build was based on advice I had received from the forums. A mystic who had only small arms would likely do a pitifully small amount of damage in regular combat. A small arm with the same cost probably would have done only ~10 damage per hit (a level 6 laser pistol would have done 2d4+5 damage instead of 1d10+10 that my plasma rifle did).
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Is that too much information?
Even though I know they can be a pain to setup, I do think Starfinder games benefit greatly from maps that allow the characters to position their tokens as needed...
Obviously I agree, since I set up a map for this encounter.
I think this is particularly true when there are AoE effects to consider, and the gun I have has the line property, so I needed to be able to see where the AoE would be.
"Theatre of the Mind" combats might be fine for trivial encounters but for more complex ones the GM has to be VERY descriptive. Without that, tactical decisions become impossible. I am in a couple of games with a GM that insists on doing it this way with very little description, and his combats are extremely boring, just a set of alternating die rolls. ("Your turn to roll attacks, now that bad guys turn, now your turn again..." ad nauseam).
This was a little more interesting but I still found myself in a position where I found it impossible to picture who was where and to figure out what was going on.
I also feel like we mopped up that combat REALLY quickly - not sure if it was just lucky rolls or if the encounter was meant to be fairly easy for the PCs to win.
Was it four rounds?
Concentration being an automatic fail rather than a check means that if you're concentrating on something, you should get entirely out of sight.
Skill checks against people are for specialists only. I should have used amplified glitch rather than a normal intimidate check as that would have used computers for the same effect, and were I making Deneth again I'd have no more in intimidate than the 3 ranks prereq for the glitch feat - +10 intimidate is not going to be any use at level 10. Seriously, the DC of ~30 is success only on a 20 anyway.
Arcing surge (technomancer, 3rd) is apparently at least as effective as mindthrust IV (mystic, 4th) given that you're not going to take someone out with one blast spell anyway, and so affecting ~2 targets for 10d6 seems a better bargain than one for 10d10.
Did the snipers have some sort of ability to ignore cover?
Sorry I was gone for most of the fight, so I don't think I have any really helpful feedback.
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Well, I didn't really make Rax as a traditional mechanic, so I won't be super-helpful discussing in-combat abilities - I, for example, was so eager to get into the fray that I completely forgot to use overload or my shields or anything.
For people going a combat mechanic, the "Move action to activate your exocortex tracking" is a little harsh - there were a few times that I was hurting for actions or had to move slower due to needing to track someone new - so I feel like a mechanic ability or feat that allows for swift action tracking would be a big help, even if it were a 1/day or "until the next time you take a 10-minute rest", or even having it cost a resolve point.
That said, having a 21 Int character that can break 50 damage on an unarmed strike crit... pretty sweet.
One thing - with the right spells you don't need a gun. I'm fairly sure that in some fights just opening with the amplified glitch feat, then casting microbot assault & moving out of the way to concentrate in peace would be sufficient.
As far as maps go in PBP, it's my experience that they tend to slow things down as opposed to being particularly useful. You should, however, have an idea of what the battlefield looks like, hence why I posted a map.
I also feel like we mopped up that combat REALLY quickly - not sure if it was just lucky rolls or if the encounter was meant to be fairly easy for the PCs to win.
That was a lower end, "welcome to the adventure" fight. The other fights will be harder, don't you fret none! =D
In all seriousness though, the fight was intended to be more of a delaying action to set up the chase portion of the adventure rather than a straight assault.
Hmm... what CR was the encounter?
It was roughly a CR 9 encounter (to be honest, I didn't use the CR system when I built it, and I had to go back and eyeball it when you asked).
When I saw that even the big dumb guys were saving at +12
It's worth mentioning that most of the non-caster classes have 2 primary saves, and Soldiers are no exception (they get fort and will primary). Also, when building NPCs, they just have a set save type, based on what type of creature you're building and the CR of the creature. I don't want to get too much into the CR of the individual creatures (as I will likely reuse some of the stat blocks I used in this fight), but when building creatures it does make it really simple to design stat blocks. I am pretty impressed with the build system for them.
Is that too much information?
Not at all. Thank you for your assessment. As far as your weapon attack being resisted goes, there's not a good way to tell what energy someone is resistant to, especially if it's not a racial ability (in this case, it comes from a feat).
Move action to activate your exocortex tracking
As far as that goes, I can see your point, but it's worth mentioning that at your level you would get to track two of them, so you could have (for example) tracked both snipers.
One thing - with the right spells you don't need a gun.
One of the things I've noticed about the system in general is that the evocation style spells are at least as prevalent as the utility spells. That being said, however, I don't think that you can play a caster as a "all I do is cast spells every round of combat" type of character, as since all casters are 6th level spell casters it means that you run out of spells long before the final boss.
Once again, thank you all for the feedback.
I'll get the chase rules posted to the Campaign Info tab sometime today and then we'll continue with our exciting story!
As far as I can tell the only ways to restore stamina points are to rest for 10 minutes (or 8 hours), or to spend $14 000 for a dose of transdimensional pesh, or to have an envoy use a particular power. I don't think we can do any of these right now. Despite the flavour text it's much easier to recover hit points.
Looking forward to the chase.
As far as maps go in PBP, it's my experience that they tend to slow things down as opposed to being particularly useful.
This surprises me. That is not my experience.
"A picture is worth 1000 words." A map answers a whole host of questions that otherwise have to be answered descriptively by the GM.
* How far away is the enemy?
* Can I get over there without provoking?
* Can I flank the enemy with this other player?
* Can I catch these enemies in my AoE?
* Is this other monster or character or object in the way and giving my enemy cover?
* Is there a way to get cover from his attacks?
If I have to ask any of these things that generally adds a day to the real-world time elapsed for the combat. A map answers all of those things immediately.
One of the things that makes combat interesting is the choice of tactical decisions. You can't make those decisions without information. And a combat map gives you all that information in one go, as long as it is understandable.
If the players are happy with just making an attack roll every round, then that's fine. But if you're looking for a way to give yourself some kind of advantage, and the information isn't there to do that, it gets very frustrating.
When I saw that even the big dumb guys were saving at +12...It's worth mentioning that most of the non-caster classes have 2 primary saves, and Soldiers are no exception (they get fort and will primary).
According to Alien Archive, NPC Combatants normally have good Fort and Reflex saves, and poor Will saves. NPC Experts and Spellcasters tend to have good Will saves and weak other saves.
This doesn't always have to be true, but it ought to be true more often than not, since a spellcaster ought to be able to make an educated guess as to which opponent might be the best target for his spell.
If a combatant has +12 saves that also probably means he is CR 10. Again there can be variance but that's the general assumption.
As far as your weapon attack being resisted goes, there's not a good way to tell what energy someone is resistant to, especially if it's not a racial ability (in this case, it comes from a feat).
I can think of two ways it would make sense to give this information out.
1. Successful Perception check: "You notice that scorch marks are appearing on his armor but you don't see arcs of electricity, so you think something is absorbing the electrical damage."
2. Knowledge
* Is it technological? Roll Engineering.
* Is it biological? Roll Life Science.
* Is it magical? Roll Mysticism.
* Is it environmental? Roll Physical Science.
* Is it due to training? Roll Culture.
What should the DC for these checks be?
I would guess that using the 15 + (1.5 * CR) formula would probably be a good idea. That formula seems to appear in a lot of places.
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Move action to activate your exocortex trackingAs far as that goes, I can see your point, but it's worth mentioning that at your level you would get to track two of them, so you could have (for example) tracked both snipers.
Well holy hell I guess I missed that. Nice!
Also, as far as the enemy will saves discussion - sounds like Vrog didn't use the alien archive, seems he made Solider NPCs. I've been primarily running OP scenarios and the AP modules so far, so I haven't been messing around in the enemy creation rules, but it does seem to be differences in how the CRB handles player stats versus how the Alien Archive handles monster stats.
Yeah, there's a huge difference between the way NPCs and PCs are built.
The biggest one is that it gives NPCs a big bonus to hit and a penalty to AC. Xera's 1st level version is in a Dead Suns AP game, and our first encounter was with a bunch of CR 1/2 punks who had +6 on their to-hit rolls, but only EAC 10 and KAC 12. So it was roughly +3 to hit and -3 to AC.
NPCs also don't get ability bonuses to anything, except STR to damage and ability checks (including initiative). The values for things are assumed to already include any relevant bonuses.
NPCs also get full Weapon Specialization at CR 1 even if they are fighting with small arms or basic melee weapons, which normally get 1/2 weapon specialization for PCs at level 3. But its based on CR since they don't have levels.
They also get a damage rating and then if they use weapons you're supposed to match them with a weapon that does that amount of damage, rather than starting with the weapon and calculating damage.
It's a weird system and I'm still trying to get a handle on it. I am undecided if I like it or not.
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I think it's sort of a DnD 4E approach to things - making something easy instead of the endless levels of verisimilitude that people got accustomed to being able to choose from in 3.0 and 3.5. Pathfinder kept a lot of those many variations, so it's still a game that's daunting to new players and new GMs in a lot of ways... but they learned from Starfinder and started streamlining things, while still keeping big nods to the old systems so it's easier for new players to pick up, while still having enough rules to make for diverse options (though more through flavor and the interplay between roles and classes... that's a different convo, I think).
So in that vein - I think that monster creation is a lot more balanced and quicker if you're making an opponent from scratch, but creates a very different feel than if you made the same opponent via the CRB. Alien Archive monsters are much more uniform in stats for the most part, except where abilities are used to flavor everyone a little different.