
Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

I too agree on the greatness that is that news.
Now, I know Doc has had some issues, but i'd like to have him state exactly what they are. This way we can work them out and hopefully keep the group together.
If he's unwilling or unable to resolve his differences, for whatever reason, I offer him a spot in the Iron Carnival squad which I run, if he still feels like playing Doc.

Doomed Hero |

Now, I know Doc has had some issues, but I'd like to have him state exactly what they are.
I thought that I had stated them pretty succinctly, but I'll elaborate. Voice, I'm not trying to attack you here. Don't take my criticisms the wrong way. It's just a difference in stylistic opinions. I'm not taking anything personally and I hope you aren't either. I'm willing to talk about this.
It comes down to two things-
The first issue is that I dislike when I feel like character abilities and themes are cast aside. I also dislike when things seem overly complex, especially when the complexity stacks the deck against the players. The drinking contest is a statistical quagmire. It's a drinking contest in a bar between missions. It could simply be handled with one roll. Or even with none. A line of descriptive text would be plenty. Then we get a little bit of down-time characterization stuff and move on to the meeting with the higher ups the next day.
It's like when you're playing a rogue and sneaking around the dungeon and the GM asks for a new stealth check around every corner. Everyone's seen that in a game. It's time consuming and unnecessary, seems to punish the player, and worst, it's a symptom of "player vs GM gaming" which I don't enjoy. I'm not saying that's what Voice is doing or has done. It's just a red flag that goes up in my mind. If this were a test that involved a lot of different skills, many rolls would be necessary, but they would be different rolls. Requiring many rolls of the same type over time is generally a bad idea, as failure is more likely with every additional roll.
The second issue I have is one that I've noticed in other games before this so I'm a little sensitive to it. It's about tactical descriptions. I mentioned how playing a range-based character with every limited movement is difficult in a game where the distances between everything is very ambiguous. There is a reason that older edition modules all had overly detailed descriptions of dungeon rooms. They were necessary for having a clear mental picture of the surroundings. I feel we haven't gotten that a few times. Voice has done a stellar job describing the feel of the surroundings, but has been vague about the actual distances involved during encounters. With the tent incident it cost me. What I attempted to do was reasonable given the movement and lifting-dragging rules, but I was too far away from the tent and didn't know it. The lack of description ended with me wasting an action, tangled in a tent and right next to the boss monsters. If not for two lucky rolls I would have been dead (and nearly was anyway), all because I thought I was closer to the tent than I actually was. I didn't really voice it at the time, but that made me pretty angry. I felt like I had acted on the information given, and then it had been changed on me without any way of revising my action.
What it comes down to is that the game stopped being fun for me at some point. I found myself prickling at things I'd normally just let slide off, like the level-dipping thing. Everything was fine until this thing with the drinking contest, but when that red flag went up I knew I wasn't going to be able to keep playing unless there were some serious changes. Once I realized that I figured it would be best if I just left rather than start a big fight with Voice which basically amounts to two kids in a sandbox arguing about who's way of building is better.
Now that the conversation has started, I'll see it out. This was what I was trying to avoid, but it's too late now. Might as well try to get something constructive out of it.
Blaze, I really appreciate your offer of moving Doc to the Iron Carnival. If I don't stay here I'll definitely take you up on that.

Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

Clearly, I'm not Voiceless, but personally I feel that the above post was more or less done in a constructive critisim manner. You raised vaild points, weren't insultive or rude and got your fustration across.
Now let's begins the healing process:
The first issue raised is pretty much all up to VoV. The other players can offer advise, but since its sorta a rules debate, its all up to him. Looking over his suggested way of handling it, I think Doc woulda been fine, but I also agree with Doc's PoV in that it could be hand waved in favor of the PC. After all we're the heroes here, able to do things most motals can only dream of.
But as I said, in the end VoV has to make the call.
However, the second point is one I think we can all help with. Keeping in mind this is a PbP, and thus by its very nature often vague on things like distance and area, etc we can all go out of our way to ask before hand via OCC and spoiler tags.
I did so already regarding flanking, and Voice said we pretty much can assume we are, unless we can't. If any of us, Doc, myself, Cort, etc are unsure about anything that could affect our characters actions, ASK.
Hopefully, if there's a bit of a screw up, VoV will allow a retcon of actions. But that's also up to him, and needs to be handled on a case by case basis, I would think.

Sentis Spinis |

I agree with both points Blaze just made. Especially in regards to distance. I can't think of anybody going around thinking 'its 50 feet to that tree and 110 feet to the corner of this hallway'. People just don't see the world that way. I worked construction a long time where distance was an all day every day factor and without pulling a tape there's no accurate way to judge it. Its a plus if the DM gives exacts measurements. And asking is the only way I think is fair of getting that information. And even then the answer more often than not should be 'you think its x number of feet'. On a tabletop game we often take for granted that we can accurately judge these things with a gridded map before us.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

I agree with both points Blaze just made. Especially in regards to distance. I can't think of anybody going around thinking 'its 50 feet to that tree and 110 feet to the corner of this hallway'. People just don't see the world that way. I worked construction a long time where distance was an all day every day factor and without pulling a tape there's no accurate way to judge it. Its a plus if the DM gives exacts measurements. And asking is the only way I think is fair of getting that information. And even then the answer more often than not should be 'you think its x number of feet'. On a tabletop game we often take for granted that we can accurately judge these things with a gridded map before us.
Sentis, I understand what you're trying to say, but you're mistaking my point. I'm not talking about how Doc sees the world and I didn't mean to imply that he did. I'm talking about how I, as a player, gauge the numbers that make up the framework of Doc's reality. They are often extremely crucial. Dramatically, it's awesome when a character gets caught by surprise. It feels like the GM is playing with you. Mechanical, it really sucks when a player gets caught by surprise. It makes you feel like the GM is playing against you.
Saying "Doc is close to the tent" is fine as long as Doc never needs to interact with the tent. At the moment the tent becomes an issue, I need to know exactly what that means. There's a world of difference between being 15' from a Large tent and being 30' from a Huge tent.
I'm not asking for exact measurements every time. Roughs will often do as long as they are something I can gauge with.
Allegorically, I don't need to know exactly what my enemy's AC is when I decide to attack, but I do need to know that he's wearing plate mail. Don't spring the plate mail on me after I decide to swing.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Both of those cases are actually where I've attempted to give your character a chance to shine unfortunately. Obviously I've just done a poor job of it.
On the tent issue I read through what Doc had described as an action, then considered things like the rough distance and what IC actions would have been required to achieve it and gauged that he wouldn't be able to. Then I shrugged my shoulders and thought - hey its a cool sounding cinematic type action why don't I let him have it. Hence the invocation of the rule of cool, in that although the rules don't support what you are trying to do, it sounds pretty cool so I am going to bend them to allow your character a bit of time to shine. As you yourself stated in thread the entanglement was a non issues as you were still in range to whack the enemy despite spending a move action to un-entangle.
I'd hardly say the action was worthless - as it removed the need for everyone to come into the tent through the entry and allowed you to easily surround the bad guys.
On the drinking contest I was trying to invoke something similar. A cinematic style drinking contest where if Doc won would come off looking like a hero with a beer foam soaked beard and end up getting free drinks for everyone. IC your character was talking up how big a drinker he was and how he didn't want pansy lute players as entertainment. My actual DM thoughts were, lets give him a shot to prove it - you win you look like a champion, you lose - you probably still come off smelling like roses compared to some of the others that took the shot.
So both of your major beefs have actually been where I've intended to give Doc time in the sun or a chance to shine. Granted I've probably screwed up somewhere along the descriptive line, but the intent was positive in both cases.
As far as effective gauges of distance, I realise that a combination of no maps and seven PCs makes it hard - and unfortunately maps aren't something that I'll be able to provide in the short to medium timeframe.

Kaavel |

I have not really had a problem with maps in the PbP I have been in but I have not GM any. What one of my GM does is use google docs and a spreadsheet to make a quick map. It is quick and not really a lot of work but it at least gets the job done. I know you are in china though DM Voiceless so that might not be an option.

Doomed Hero |

Voice, I understand that your intent was not in any way malicious. I don't fault you for what you were trying to do, simply how you did it. We play differently and that's fine. I'm sure that if we were in a face to face game none of this would be an issue, we'd quickly hash out things like distance and action requirements with visual aids, and I could argue things like roll-bloat by drawing a simple graph or equation.
I recognize that a big part of the problem is me. I'm very particular about certain things in games I'm in. You've just run across two of them in a short amount of time and that left me overanalyzing things.
With the tent issue, the thing that bothered me the most was the disregard of my intentions. A tent is essentially a giant bag. I was using it in much the same way as a trap. In my opinion the villains should have gotten reflex saves and if they had failed they should have been inside a pinata until they could cut themselves out. A saving throw or an escape artist check would have been sufficiant and if they had made them I'd have just shrugged and moved on. Instead, I ended up doing nothing but yanking down their cover and getting tangled up in it. No rolls involved. The result was handwaved, my action was wasted, I was penalized and if not for two very lucky rolls, I would likely have ended up dead. It ended up fine, and my character did shine, but that was because of blind luck after my intended action failed arbitrarily.
With the drinking contest, where you see an opportunity to shine, I see the odds stacked against me and the obvious rules for the situation being ignored. Worse, my primary advantage is being ignored because of the flavor text in the description. The flavor text is the least important part of the ability. Stylistically, it's supposed to represent a character being able to drink easier. Mechanically, that's also what it does. The flavor text is just that. Flavor. Not only is it a little silly in and of itself, it's also not at all the way I'd been playing it.
I am not usually a rules lawyer by any means. I'm a hard advocate of the Rule of Cool. The thing is that the cases I've had issues with we have very different definitions of what's cool.
I'm beginning to think I am harping on this a little to hard, and that if my points still aren't understood than I should just let it go. I don't want to continue an argument that won't go anywhere productive.
I guess what I need to know is are my points understood and we can just agree to disagree, or are you still not understanding why the fun was lost for me?

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Re: The Tent
All of this probably would have been avoided if I'd clarified one point at the start. The 'tent' had no floor to it. So it was essentially a fitted sheet draped over the top of a set of poles and secured into the ground with pitons.
I understand the frustration with the fact that you couldn't avoid the entanglement and in retrospect should have either asked for a clarification on your action - OR - allowed a Reflex save to avoid. However it is also worth stating that the same could be said for the tent. It should have had a Strength check to tear it free from the pitons securing it to the ground.
Essentially I attempted to run with the thrust of your intent (which I assumed was to remove the tent part of the equation), fudged a bit and threw up what I thought would be a reasonable compromise. Obviously I screwed up reading your intention and describing a reasonable compromise action. I apologize for that.
Re: The Contest
I can appreciate your point and am willing to call this one an idea that sounded good in my head not working out on PbP or meshing with how you were thinking it would work. Any future drinking contests will be either boat races - or till you drop types.
Agree to disagree on exactly what 'Accelerated Drinker' can do, and I really don't think its going to come up again any time soon.
Similarly agree to disagree on the fact that the rules are 'obvious' in this situation. And can easily avoid similar situations in the future by not putting you in them.
Can turn it into a straight drink by drink to beat the drowner's record if you prefer that? - or just wave a magic wand and have you come back up the morning after with a headache in front of the top brass.
Forward Thinking
By means of re-assurance for myself - can you at least acknowledge that to date I have primarily been reasonable and fair. I've bent with the breeze when required and allowed the campaign to flow pretty freely.
I can take it upon myself to explicitly ask for clarification if situations arise where I would need to make a qualitative judgement. Can you commit yourself to being a bit more conciliatory than combative when I may mis-step on the rules?
I have no issues continuing with you in the party, with a gun, and with the same character. What I want to avoid is another breakdown if there is a minor clash. I mean we got through about 1500 posts ok, so you can't be too annoyed with the way I run things right?
Re: Clarity of Movement / Distance
A second idea for distance and movement (which I've thought about before) would be to adopt the style that the new warhammer RPG uses. Essentially the concept of distance is just broken into chunks. So the encounter at the camp would look something like this:
Range 0: Squad
Range 1: Porter Sentries
Range 2: Tent
It would cost a move action to move one increment, or a double move for two. Close range spells / bombs can be targeted at any enemy within 1 increment (medium within 2 and long within 3).
One increment would correspond to 'roughly' 30ft, but I'd make hand-wave it for the Dwarf so that he could move at the same speed.
If there are groups in different directions that can be ascribed with Alpha numerics (1A, 1B). If you want to flank around the side it can be done similarly.
It would strip some of the tactical positioning out, but also give you a more concrete feel for distances betwixt yourselves and the enemies.

Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

RE: Distance, I don't think we need anything like that, seems like it could get a little too confusing or complicated.
I really think that between us players asking for clarification when it matters(which shouldn't be all that often as mostly its "Yes, your in range or no you need to get closer" kinda deal) and you providing some distances to start a combat should be all we need.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

Re: The Tent
Apology accepted and appreciated. All I really want out of any situation is for my actions to be clarified if they are not understood and to be given the chance to succeed through whatever rolls we deem necessary.
Re: The ContestCan turn it into a straight drink by drink to beat the drowner's record if you prefer that? - or just wave a magic wand and have you come back up the morning after with a headache in front of the top brass.
That sounds fine. Anything to reduce the number of rolls. The fact is, in a situation where success means a linear progression and failure means a descending progression, more rolls means greater chances of failure.
As for having a hangover in the morning, that's what Alchemist's Kindness is for. :)
Doc can drink to the brink of alcohol poisoning (quite a feat for someone with his poison save) and be completely fine in the morning.
Forward ThinkingBy means of re-assurance for myself - can you at least acknowledge that to date I have primarily been reasonable and fair. I've bent with the breeze when required and allowed the campaign to flow pretty freely.
Absolutely. A number of things you do to keep the game moving have impressed me a lot. The way you handle initiative, for example. It's free form which caters well to the way PbP's run, but structured enough to keep things from being a cluster-@#&%. I'll probably adopt something similar for my own pbp games.
You also do a great job with your stylistic descriptions. I loved your descriptions of the porters affliction. It gave a lot of mystery to what had happened to them.
I have enjoyed the game a lot so far except for the things we've talked about, and I think those things have been resolved.
I'll stay. How would you like to proceed?

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Malaysia is all well and good for the most part. I've commonly been told that I started towards the top as far as expatriate countries go (as opposed to say Africa or Middle East). Much English abounds, food is fantastic and cheap and you still get most of the trappings of civilization that you expect.
The capital is very multi-cultural, with big Malay, Indian and Chinese populations as well as a healthy amount of expats in the mix. Everyone gets along pretty well fortunately, and lends itself to some cool social events (such as the Indian wedding I was at on the weekend).
No gaming stores though. Closest we get to a FLGS is a comic store that stocks some board games and Warhammer figs. Hence PbPs and Pathfinder PDFs :)

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

New post is up. I've proffered a single roll drinking marathon, take it if you like - if not I'll go with the skip forward to the meeting with top brass.
Will keep distances and description as it is for now.
Thanks. The system you've worked out does nicely. Appropriately heroic but still risky.

Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

I'm assuming the crew is all leveled up to third? - anyone still waiting on any clarifications from me before taking the level?
Doc - do you have any thoughts as to what you'd like to go along with your musket (for the mutagen tradeoff)?
The only thing I need to do is HP. Would it be ok if I rolled, and if I got below avg+Con, took that instead?
Also,
I was just reading the spells in Faiths of Purity and there's a spell in there, Sunmetal(for worshipers of Sarenrae), that would be great for me, but isn't a Magus spell as I am not sure that class was published yet.
Any chance you'd be willing to allow it for the Magus? Could be in that spellbook, as it's a fire spell.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

I'm assuming the crew is all leveled up to third? - anyone still waiting on any clarifications from me before taking the level?
Doc - do you have any thoughts as to what you'd like to go along with your musket (for the mutagen tradeoff)?
Pretty sure I'm finished except for picking my 3rd level feat.
As for the additional perk for giving up Mutagen, I really have no idea. I'm open to suggestions.

Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

I think I'll take the avg for HP, for 21 total.
As for something Doc can gain for giving up Mutagens, how about giving him the Gunsmithing feat, and allow him to count as a Gunslinger in order to upgrade his starting weapon? If Doc or Voiceless feel that doesn't equal out to a fair trade, then I would suggest granting him the Amateur Gunslinger feat as well. This would basically make Doc a Gunslinger, save he of course doesn't get the vast majority of the class features.
The only concerns I have is 1) Doc looses the option to take Discoveries to increase his Mutagens and 2) He also looses out on Persistent Mutagen, an actual class feature which improves his Mutagens, as opposed to things he can choose to make them better.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Doc - would you be happy with getting the Gunsmithing feat and battered musket as direct trade (at first). Then being able to upgrade the musket to masterwork with 300gp (as per Gunsmithing feat)?
Amateur Gunslinger doesn't do much for you as it is Wis based, so you'd only ever be able to get one grit anyway.

Memluk "Blaze" Seljuk |

While that's true about Amateur Gunslinger, I believe it allows him to take the Extra Grit feat, which I think not only increases the amount of Grit one can have, but also the max one can have per day. Pretty sure that's what I read, it was late n my brain was a little melty lol.
I suppose an alternative to Persistent Mutagen can be worked out if we make it to 14th lvl and Doc is both stll alive and still straight Alch.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

Doc - would you be happy with getting the Gunsmithing feat and battered musket as direct trade (at first). Then being able to upgrade the musket to masterwork with 300gp (as per Gunsmithing feat)?
Amateur Gunslinger doesn't do much for you as it is Wis based, so you'd only ever be able to get one grit anyway.
How about we make Amateur Gunsmith based on another stat? I could see it working with Charisma, Dexterity or even Intelligence.
My suggestion would be Charisma since it makes thematic sense for the ability and right now it's a fairly high stat for Doc and isn't tied to anything he does. It's just there because I like the idea of Doc being likable.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

I'm a bit wary of re-mapping 'grit' to another stat, and as written Amateur Gunslinger doesn't do a great deal (basically lets you use only a single 1st level deed - unless you burn more feats into it).
Doc - are you going to funnel any more feats into being capable of using the gun better? - or is it something that you'd just whatever abilities you got without investing more into it?
I can see 'Quick Clear' being pretty damn useful, and 'Deadeye' would be the only other 1st level deed that would be of interest?
How about the trade as follows:
Lose mutagen
Gain Gunsmithing
Gain free battered musket (that can be upgraded as per Gunsmithing)
Ability to use 'Quick Clear' as standard action (not much use in combat, but would allow you to repair after a misfire without spending any money).
Ability to use 'Deadeye' Int mod times per day.
We can see how it goes, and worry about the 14th level bump down the line.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

How about the trade as follows:
Lose mutagen
Gain Gunsmithing
Gain free battered musket (that can be upgraded as per Gunsmithing)
Ability to use 'Quick Clear' as standard action (not much use in combat, but would allow you to repair after a misfire without spending any money).
Ability to use 'Deadeye' Int mod times per day.
Those things sound fine to me. I'm fine with however you want to handle it.
As for the question of granted abilities vs. feats, I can see it being a little of both.
The grit system isn't one I'm terribly familiar with yet, so your changes are more comfortable for me anyway. I'm much more interested in the crafting/designing more powerful and more interesting weapons than I am in doing tricky/showy things with them. (The grit system seems primarily focused on doing tricky things with guns, which isn't Doc's approach. He's more likely to build a shotgun with 4 barrels than to put one bullet exactly in the right place.)
Because Feats are so scarce for casters I'm tempted to ask that Doc's gun abilities just be scale like Mutagen would. On the other hand, if you'd allow feats to be taken to more cheaply and easily craft weapons and ammo, I'd gladly take them. I already plan on taking Master Alchemist and Master Craftsman. The most prohibitive thing about guns is the cost of ammo. Would you allow an Alchemical discovery that would let me make cheaper gunpowder?
I'd be fine not having Grit at all and just sucking up any misfires or fumbles (damn exp'rimental crap! Bah!) if I could be allowed to build experimental firearms and ammo. It would require some GM fiat, but I'd be comfortable presenting an idea, putting in the research time and materials, making a craft roll and then just letting you tell me what the weird thing I tried actually does. If it doesn't work at all, well, that's the cost of experimentation. If it doesn't work as well as I want it to, that just means it's a working prototype to improve on later.
I understand how hard it is to balance things. The crafting rules and the guns rules are both a little wonky and possibly abusable. I tend to look at an alchemist as a crafting-based wizard, so I'll make sure to keep my ideas and scope of spells that we have access to at whatever level we happen to be at.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Sounds good.
Since you get the gunsmithing feat, you can craft bullets and blackpowder for 10% cost. Or are you after getting it even lower? Since the next squad mission is to a mine I could see you finding some raw materials within that.
The mutagen doesn't actually scale (apart from duration) unless you sink discoveries into it. I'm happy for you to do the same for gun-wielding if you want to go that route.
For crafting, I'm happy for you to put forward suggestions and we can see how they look. I see no reason why 'Master Craftsman' wouldn't also allow you to enchant your musket as well.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

Remember that a few characters picked up some magic items during the trip which need to be counted in the total.
If there was anything that you wanted to sell, mundane items sell for half-price as usual. Magic items might be a bit harder to offload for coin, but might be barterable.

Drannigan "Doc" Piper |

Sounds good.
Since you get the gunsmithing feat, you can craft bullets and blackpowder for 10% cost. Or are you after getting it even lower? Since the next squad mission is to a mine I could see you finding some raw materials within that.
The mutagen doesn't actually scale (apart from duration) unless you sink discoveries into it. I'm happy for you to do the same for gun-wielding if you want to go that route.
For crafting, I'm happy for you to put forward suggestions and we can see how they look. I see no reason why 'Master Craftsman' wouldn't also allow you to enchant your musket as well.
10% cost is still 1.5 gold per shot (I think). If possible I would like to get it lower than that, but it doesn't need to be immediate. I'll shell out for now. It'll give Doc something to gripe about and that's always fun.
I'm a little confused about Master Craftsman, actually. I still need the appropriate craft item feat in addition, right?
My idea is to use Craft Wonderous Item to make one-shot items that replicate spell effects that would be fun to deliver through a gun or mortar. Something like launching a Fireball or Cloudkill as a mortar shell.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless |

On the cost, noted - I'll likely seed some things into the next 'away mission' to alleviate the cost. It is 11gp per shot (ten for the black powder and one for the bullet) - so crafting your own would be 1.1gp per.
For Master Craftsman (MC) - yeah, technically you need to have the appropriate Craft X feat to use it. But I think your intent is fairly limited in scope so I don't see any reason to block it.
I'd be comfortable for you to only need MC if you want to make special ammo or upgrade your gun. Still a couple of levels away, but we can work out specifics once we get closer.
I'll be doing similar for Sentis after the meeting with the Ghol-Gan scholar so he can get his wolf companion sorted.

Grusk II |

Updated and still staying rogue.....
I love the bow and might have to ranger later, but for now rogue is the way to go for me!
Hey Dark!
How about this teamwork feat?
Stealth Synergy (Teamwork)
Working closely with an ally, you are able to move like twin shadows.
Benefit: While you can see one or more allies who also have this feat, whenever you and your allies make a Stealth check, you all take the highest roll and add all your modifiers to Stealth.

Sentis Spinis |

Pardon the questions, but my search fu is on vacation this week along with the rest of my brain. Are masterwork items, and/or special materials available?
from the IC thread -
Kaavel - for shopping you can do either. If it's just vanilla magic items I don't have an issue with those being readily available (like +1 weapons / armor, +1 cloaks of resist, low + bracers of armor) - but exotics you'd need to run past me as to whether they are available.
Might be worth breaking it down in the OOC thread for clarity