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So I've been geeking out a little bit on the threads where people have brought up martial arts, and I'm curious. Has anyone tried representing martial arts in d20 via feats? I know that the monk class is supposed to be the HtH fighting master, but that's sort of a joke; so I find myself wondering about other avenues.
I know it's pretty simple to use feats to simulate a lot of martial arts stuff and I'm wondering if you could take it a step farther with dedicated feat style trees. There was a little bit of this going on in Star Wars d20 of all places, so I thought I'd ask if anyone has pioneered this at all. I'll see if I can find and adapt some of the feats I've seen; maybe post some new ones. I'd like to see whether any of you have input in the same vein.
Okay, some illustrations because I'm maybe being kind of vague. These were kinda lifted from star wars, with slight modifications. I hope I'm not stepping on any copyright toes. I just happen to like how Star Wars set things up, martial arts-wise. There were basic martial arts feats, and then each style had two or three feats that roughly corresponded to the basic feats. So martial arts, improved martial arts, and advanced martial arts were used to gain access to, say, K'thri/K'thri Expertise/K'thri Mastery, respectively.
Examples:
Martial Arts - Basically just Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Martial Arts
Improves crit range by one (19-20) and gives a second die of damage. ie: small goes from 1d3 to 2d3, medium from 1d4 to 2d4
Advanced Martial Arts
Another +1 bump to crit range, and another die.
Defensive Martial Arts
+2 Dodge bonus to Defense (AC). Interesting because there are no requirements to meet, take the feat and get the bonus as long as you're not flat footed. Doesn't matter if you wear armor, hold a weapon, or carry heavy things.
Style feats typically revolve around one or two kinds of actions.
Examples:
Stava
Gives a second unarmed attack on a charge, at a -5.
Stava Expertise
Double strength bonus on unarmed attacks made during a charge.
Stava Mastery
As a full round, make a single attack and deal max damage. For every five points of BaB, deal +2 damage on this attack.
Now I suppose you could use the Star Wars stuff and change the flavor for the styles, but there's only four or five of them. I'd like to see a dancing plethora of style feats for D20. Oh, and more feats for Martial Arts in general.
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It's not something that's occured to me, primarily because D&D combat is pretty abstracted so this level of detail dosn't fit in very naturally with the rest of the system; if you're running a martial arts focused campaign then it may well make sense, but just adding them into a standard camapign would feel odd -- there aren't really many armed combat feats, so a dozen unarmed feats and a bunch of "styles" would really shift the balance.
Defensive Martial Arts
+2 Dodge bonus to Defense (AC). Interesting because there are no requirements to meet, take the feat and get the bonus as long as you're not flat footed. Doesn't matter if you wear armor, hold a weapon, or carry heavy things.
A feat, no pre-reqs, that give +2 dodge to AC under all circumstances unless flat-footed? "Interesting" isn't the word I'd use :)
Body Flip
Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike.
You use your opponents’ own strength to knock them down.
Benefit: As long as your opponent isn’t using a melee weapon with Reach, your Trip attacks deny your opponent from his Strength modifier to resist the Trip attempt. Your opponent retains other modifiers like size, more than 2 legs, etc.
Improved Body Flip
Prerequisites: Body Flip, Base Attack Bonus +6
You reflexively counter any incoming opponents in melee
Benefit: Whenever you’re attacked in melee combat, you get a Reflex save DC 15, if you succeed, you get a free Trip attack against that opponent. Unless you’re holding nothing else than a Tiny or smaller object in your hand, you must drop whatever weapon in hands to perform a body flip.
Joint Lock
Prerequisites: Base Attack +3, Improved Grapple.
You can quickly force humanoid opponents into full submission.
Benefit: By twisting your opponent's arm behind his back, you can Pin opponents while remaining on a standing position, thus not getting the Grappled condition yourself. Targets attempting to escape the grapple have their difficulty increased +4.
Normal: When pinning an opponent, you get the Grappled condition, becoming open to being dealt damage from your target.
Improved Joint Lock
Prerequisites: Base Attack +6, Joint Lock.
You are adept at locks intended for disabling limbs.
Benefit: When Pinning an opponent, you can disable an opponent's limb, doing 1d4 Dexterity damage to the target, which he can resist with a Fortitude save DC 10 + Half your Character Level. On a successful save, the target averts both forms of damage. A disabled arm means the opponent can only do attacks with his off-hand, and a disabled leg cuts the target's speed by half, plus they can't run. Targets recover their full mobility once their Dexterity Damage is fully healed.
Special: Monks also add their Wisdom modifier to the DC of the target's Fort save.
Also, I mentioned wanting a free trip or grapple when someone whiffs an attack on a martial artist; and there's a feat:
Defensive Throw
When your dodge target misses with a melee attack, make an immediate improved trip attack as an attack of opportunity. (Doesn't increase number of AoO)
Oh, and there was a martial arts master prestige class. It gained uncanny dodge, an improvement to AC against ranged attacks, and bonus HtH feats. Its key abilities were Improvisation, which let you combine two martial arts feats effects (except for those that increase damage; only one at a time) and Grand Mastery, which increased any x times per day martial arts feat uses by 1.
The Improvisation part was actually the best part of the class, as you could combine stuff like Stava Mastery and K'thri Mastery to make a single attack that dealt max damage with a bonus, and caused a Fort save to resist being dazed for three rounds.
A feat, no pre-reqs, that give +2 dodge to AC under all circumstances unless flat-footed? "Interesting" isn't the word I'd use :)
That "Defensive Martial Arts" is a feat from Star Wars d20 actually, except that the requisite there is Martial Arts (or Improved Unarmed Strike). =)
You can also farm out examples from D20 Modern's Martial Arts Mayhem volumes I & II. (Although I found their secret techniques rules to be a little clunky.)
Blood and Fists for d20 Modern had lots of interesting feats/style feats, but also added some mechanics that felt unwieldy. I liked that they typically gave a combat bonus and added a couple of skills to your list of class skills. (Aikido doesn't provoke for trip or grapple and adds Balance, Meditation, and Tumble to the list of class skills.)
So those are all the examples I could think of from d20 products. Anyone got creative juices flowing for new/D&D specific ones?
Edit: Ninja'd by Callum and Dogbert!
A feat, no pre-reqs, that give +2 dodge to AC under all circumstances unless flat-footed? "Interesting" isn't the word I'd use :)That "Defensive Martial Arts" is a feat from Star Wars d20 actually, except that the requisite there is Martial Arts (or Improved Unarmed Strike). =)
Yep, sorry. I should've been more specific. I meant that there were no requirements once you had the feat. Not that there were no pre-reqs.
It's not something that's occured to me, primarily because D&D combat is pretty abstracted so this level of detail dosn't fit in very naturally with the rest of the system; if you're running a martial arts focused campaign then it may well make sense, but just adding them into a standard camapign would feel odd -- there aren't really many armed combat feats, so a dozen unarmed feats and a bunch of "styles" would really shift the balance.
Well, the style feats I've named are trees between 1 and 3 feats long. So I don't think they're too great a commitment. And feat trees in general are already in line with what I'm suggesting. Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Superior. It's basically a "martial art" feat tree, but the art involved isn't typically bare handed.
This goes hand-in-hand with my wish to expand the fighter feat list by three or four times, I suppose.
As long as your opponent isn’t using a melee weapon with Reach
This line should really be added to the Defensive Throw feat.
Improved Body Flip
Prerequisites: Body Flip, Base Attack Bonus +6
You reflexively counter any incoming opponents in melee
Benefit: Whenever you’re attacked in melee combat, you get a Reflex save DC 15, if you succeed, you get a free Trip attack against that opponent. Unless you’re holding nothing else than a Tiny or smaller object in your hand, you must drop whatever weapon in hands to perform a body flip.
I like this a lot, but I imagine it would get some bad reactions from people based on the fact that the save isn't very hard and you can do it as much as you like.
Joint Lock
Prerequisites: Base Attack +3, Improved Grapple.
You can quickly force humanoid opponents into full submission.
Benefit: By twisting your opponent's arm behind his back, you can Pin opponents while remaining on a standing position, thus not getting the Grappled condition yourself. Targets attempting to escape the grapple have their difficulty increased +4.
Normal: When pinning an opponent, you get the Grappled condition, becoming open to being dealt damage from your target.
I like this a lot too. But do foes you're not grappling still get a bonus to hit you? (Seems like they should)
Improved Joint Lock
Prerequisites: Base Attack +6, Joint Lock.
You are adept at locks intended for disabling limbs.
Benefit: When Pinning an opponent, you can disable an opponent's limb, doing 1d4 Dexterity damage to the target, which he can resist with a Fortitude save DC 10 + Half your Character Level. On a successful save, the target averts both forms of damage. A disabled arm means the opponent can only do attacks with his off-hand, and a disabled leg cuts the target's speed by half, plus they can't run. Targets recover their full mobility once their Dexterity Damage is fully healed.
Special: Monks also add their Wisdom modifier to the DC of the targets save
Hum. I'm less enthused about this one for a couple of reasons. The save DC is rather low, but the effects are REALLY powerful. Not so much the Dex damage, which is pretty bad. (Meaning good! ;B) Rather, the disabling an arm/leg. Does that mean if you did it twice you could render the opponent unable to attack at all? Unable to move? Maybe realistic, but very severe.
I love your responses Dogbert! Thanks for throwing some stuff in!
Irimi Step
Prerequisites: Base Attack +6, Improved Grapple.
Benefit: When you enter into a square next to your opponent,you can make a CMB check.If successful,you can occupy a position where your opponent can attack you less effectively. You gain the benefit of Soft Cover (+4 bonus to AC and CMD) against attacks and combat maneuvers of the opponent and +4 bonus on the combat maneuver roll to the opponent.
If you or your opponent move,the effects lose.
Irimi Step
Prerequisites: Base Attack +6, Improved Grapple.
Benefit: When you enter into a square next to your opponent,you can make a CMB check.If successful,you can occupy a position where your opponent can attack you less effectively. You gain the benefit of Soft Cover (+4 bonus to AC and CMD) against attacks and combat maneuvers of the opponent and +4 bonus on the combat maneuver roll to the opponent.
If you or your opponent move,the effects lose.
Very interesting, I like it.
Something I didn't mention before, in the Blood and Fists book for d20 modern, style feats also changed which stat modifier applies. Some, like boxing, still use strength as usual. Others use Dex, Wis, or Cha (for particularly deceptive styles).
Any thoughts on whether that's a trend that would work in D&D?
Something I didn't mention before, in the Blood and Fists book for d20 modern, style feats also changed which stat modifier applies. Some, like boxing, still use strength as usual. Others use Dex, Wis, or Cha (for particularly deceptive styles).
Like this?
Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Int13,Improved Grapple,heal 6rank
Your anatomical knowledge makes easy to neutralize opponents.
Benefits:You can add Int bonus to your CMB.
And your unarmed damage is based on Int bonus,instead of Str bonus.
Something I didn't mention before, in the Blood and Fists book for d20 modern, style feats also changed which stat modifier applies. Some, like boxing, still use strength as usual. Others use Dex, Wis, or Cha (for particularly deceptive styles).Like this?
Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Int13,Improved Grapple,heal 6rank
Your anatomical knowledge makes easy to neutralize opponents.
Benefits:You can add Int bonus to your CMB.
And your unarmed damage is based on Int bonus,instead of Str bonus.
Indeedy, and that would allow for some interesting builds. There's a feat that already allows you to add Int to attack rolls (Insightful Strike), but it doesn't give you the bonus on damage rolls. I would prefer you get the bonus in the manner you suggest, but I wonder if other people would find it too powerful? Personally I like it fine.
[Edit]
I couldn't resist mentioning... do you know that your name more or less means "mountain fish"?
Something I didn't mention before, in the Blood and Fists book for d20 modern, style feats also changed which stat modifier applies. Some, like boxing, still use strength as usual. Others use Dex, Wis, or Cha (for particularly deceptive styles).Like this?
Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Int13,Improved Grapple,heal 6rank
Your anatomical knowledge makes easy to neutralize opponents.
Benefits:You can add Int bonus to your CMB.
And your unarmed damage is based on Int bonus,instead of Str bonus.
This should probably be split up into two feats as opposed to grouped together as one.
Yamazakana wrote:
Kuma wrote:
Something I didn't mention before, in the Blood and Fists book for d20 modern, style feats also changed which stat modifier applies. Some, like boxing, still use strength as usual. Others use Dex, Wis, or Cha (for particularly deceptive styles).Like this?
Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Int13,Improved Grapple,heal 6rank
Your anatomical knowledge makes easy to neutralize opponents.
Benefits:You can add Int bonus to your CMB.
And your unarmed damage is based on Int bonus,instead of Str bonus.This should probably be split up into two feats as opposed to grouped together as one.
hmm...
Meridian
Prerequisites:Int 13,heal 4rank,ki pool
You have traditional knowledge about ki network in living body.
Benefits:your unarmed damage against living creture may be based on Int bonus,instead of Str bonus.And you get +2 bonus on Heal skill check.
Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Meridian,Improved Grapple,heal 6rank
Your tradithonal anatomical knowledge makes easy to neutralize opponents.
Benefits:You can add Int bonus to your CMB.
Improved Qinna or Yawara
Prerequisites:Qinna,BAB7,heal 10rank
you don't lose stability when you pin your opponent.
Benefits:When you make and maintain the grapple,you don't gain the grappled condition yourself.However if you choose this option,you take –4 penalty on CMB check to make and maintain the grapple.
Normal: The grabbing creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
I couldn't resist mentioning... do you know that your name more or less means "mountain fish"?
This is old dialect name of salamander(amphibian).
How much of this is really necessary?
We already have a basic mechanic in place. Between unarmed strikes and grappling, nearly every martial arts trick you can imagine is possible.
It's all fluff.
You can sit at the table and say, "My CMB is 14. I roll a d20 and get a 12. That's 26. His CMD is only 21, so I grapple him for 4 nonlethal damage and he's now grappled."
Or you can say "I put my foe in a rear naked choke, lock my elbow, dig in my heels, arch my hips. He's going nowhere. I rolled a 26 and apply 4 nonlethal damage as I grind his adam's apple into his windpipe."
You can say, "I flurry of blows and get a 21 and a 24. The first one hits for 8 damage and the second one for 10 damage."
Or you can say "I lunge forward and drive a heel-palm to his solar plexis, 21 to attack for 8 damage, then while he's folding like a cheap suit follow up with a rising elbow slam on the way up that catches his chin on the way down, 24 to hit for 10 damage."
Or you can pick your own fluff to describe all the flashy Tae Kwon Do kicks, or Monkey Kung Fu half-knuckles, or Taijitsu joint locks, or whatever it is you're into.
Or, you can make a whole slew of game mechanics that essentially do the same thing, spend forever trying to balance it (one day monks rule the battlefield, the next day you tweak their moves down a bit and now the fighter is laughing at the ineffective monk for a change, etc.).
In my experience, every player I've ever met who went down this road was into martial arts (either practicing or watching) and wanted a character who could be Jean Claude, or Jet Li, or Quai Chang Kane, or whoever. They always came up with a bunch of uber crap - sorry to be so blunt, but it always was exactly that - to turn their monk into superman. No regard for game balance. No regard for mechanics. Just "make me a super ninja" mentality.
Now maybe your plan is different, maybe you do want game balance and you're just looking for cool mechanics for martial arts in general. If so, more power to you.
But it's a tough road to travel.
This is old dialect name of salamander(amphibian).
Really? That actually makes a lot of sense...
I don't think it's just fluff, or rather, it shouldn't be. I'm hoping for new abilities/mechanics, which is commonly what feats provide.
I am indeed hoping to keep things balanced, which is why I asked for outside suggestions, it's easier to eyeball other people's ideas than your own, balance-wise.
Wait, no two-fisted punch? No flying two footed drop kick? What kind of bizarre fighting styles are you talking about?
Wait, no two-fisted punch? No flying two footed drop kick? What kind of bizarre fighting styles are you talking about?
Shatner Punch
As a standard action, make a single attack against a target creature. The target takes normal unarmed damage and must make a Fort save with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 character level + Strength bonus. If the save fails the target is rendered helpless for 1d4 rounds.Shatner Kick
As part of a charge, make a single attack against a target creature. The target is moved away from the attacker in a straight line, 5 feet per 10 points of damage, and rendered prone. If their movement is prevented by an obstacle, such as a wall, their movement ends and they take additional damage equal to 1d6 per 10 feet they would otherwise have moved. The attacker is also rendered prone, but may make a DC 20 reflex save to prevent this.
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I'm a martial artist, all I want is the ability for my characters to actually work like kung fu, not like D&D...
an Ironbroom sweep can actually trip several people, not 1.
Many blocks are designed to do damage in addition to disarming an opponent,
There are no "called shots" in 3.5 or Pathfinder, so how can martial arts be properly represented if you can't pluck the eyeball from your opponent, or do some pressure point strikes...
Through the use of feats.
or through alternate class abilities.
Kuma, there are a lot of sources out there already. check those out, and comile what you think are the best ones.
I'm a martial artist, all I want is the ability for my characters to actually work like kung fu, not like D&D...
an Ironbroom sweep can actually trip several people, not 1.
Many blocks are designed to do damage in addition to disarming an opponent,
There are no "called shots" in 3.5 or Pathfinder, so how can martial arts be properly represented if you can't pluck the eyeball from your opponent, or do some pressure point strikes...
Through the use of feats.
or through alternate class abilities.
Kuma, there are a lot of sources out there already. check those out, and comile what you think are the best ones.
Sure, but I already did some of that. I was worried about copyright if I mined too much.
Spycraft Version 1 was fully 3.5 compatable and had some decent martial arts rules. They had feat-tree maneuvers, stances etc.
Did it now? I hardly even recall... Have to see if I can dig up the books.
I do miss spycraft. Always thought Shadowforce Archer had good psionics.
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I personally have always wanted to see some sort of feat tree that would assist a NON-monk character in unarmed fighting. It seems silly that there is only one class that is worth a crap at it. Why can't I play a fighter that uses his fists and wears no armor?? Being stuck with a mere 1d3 damage is ridiculous. Just add a couple feats that may get another character's base unarmed damage up and maybe a few other nifty ricks in that feat tree and call it good.
It really is ridiculous. Even multiclassing monk and fighter or gestalting them seems like a bit much just to do something so simple.
I personally have always wanted to see some sort of feat tree that would assist a NON-monk character in unarmed fighting. It seems silly that there is only one class that is worth a crap at it. Why can't I play a fighter that uses his fists and wears no armor?? Being stuck with a mere 1d3 damage is ridiculous. Just add a couple feats that may get another character's base unarmed damage up and maybe a few other nifty ricks in that feat tree and call it good.
Do you think Bruce Lee would be better represented by the fighter class or the monk class?
Have a look at the Star Wars Martial Arts tree I posted above. It doesn't get your damage up to monk levels, but it makes it decent and has the interesting effect of increasing your crit ratio. Seems perfectly reasonable to use it in place of Improved Unarmed Strike.
Bruce Lee? As it stands he'd be better represented by the Fighter with some very careful feat planning. Which is okay, but makes it seem silly to have a "monk" class that fails so utterly at combat.
[EDIT] I haven't been updating this topic much except to reply, my bad. Life keeps happening. I'm still interested, so please keep sharing thoughts and feedback. I've been very pleased to see some constructive stuff in here.
I don't think it's just fluff, or rather, it shouldn't be. I'm hoping for new abilities/mechanics, which is commonly what feats provide.
I am indeed hoping to keep things balanced, which is why I asked for outside suggestions, it's easier to eyeball other people's ideas than your own, balance-wise.
Have you looked into some of the non core tactical feats?
I like the feats you originally posted from SW.
I don't think it's just fluff, or rather, it shouldn't be. I'm hoping for new abilities/mechanics, which is commonly what feats provide.
I am indeed hoping to keep things balanced, which is why I asked for outside suggestions, it's easier to eyeball other people's ideas than your own, balance-wise.
Have you looked into some of the non core tactical feats?
I like the feats you originally posted from SW.
I found that tactical feats as-written are usually a mixed bag. And by mixed I mean 1 good thing and 2 bad. If that. There's only like a couple of tactical feats for unarmed (Sun school and Raptor school, something like that) and they just aren't very good. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind ever taking a tactical feat unless they're VERY committed to an incredibly narrow combat style. Most of those things require you to have the most random collection of feats and gear... Who fights with with like a handaxe and a mace or whatever? That's just retarded. If you're going to require people to meet bizarre requirements, the feat should give more than a +2 to Jump checks when within 50 ft. of a badger. Or whatever the hell they do.
Sorry, pet peeve. Those feats have so much potential and the people writing them seem to think it's an opportunity to make a joke.
@Freesword: Yeah, both of those feats I have used to good effect when making a martial artist. (A HtH fighter, not a useless monk) I almost feel like Superior Unarmed Strike is too much for just one feat, which is why I didn't mention it. I much prefer the SWRPG martial arts feats, especially since a fighter in Paizo could afford to spend a couple more. Snap Kick is spot on, though.
But they were designed for a system that focused more on ranged than melee combat and didn't have a class with a built in progressive unarmed damage progression like the monk. Flat out adding damage dice and crit range increases like that to the 3.x/PF monk would result in crazy damage at higher levels.
I don't think that those feats would actually work with monk. They get the monk unarmed strike ability, not the Martial Arts tree. I suppose they could take those feats like anyone else, but it would cost them quite a bit in the way of feats. And I'm not sure that it would stack with their unarmed damage progression.
Superior Unarmed Strike was modeled after and designed to interact with the monks unarmed progression. Spreading it out over more feats would have been cost prohibitive in 3.x for anyone except fighters. Yes, it has a better return on investment than many other feats, but I think it was actually better designed than many other feats that are great at low level and obsolete by mid-high levels.
SUS was actually a terrible feat for monks, but I've always seen people recommend it. The issue was that it bumped your damage up, but only as high as 2d10. Which meant that when you reached that point as a monk anyway, the feat was useless. You literally had a feat with no game effect. Sure you could retrain, but that costs resources and you can only do it if your DM isn't being a jerk about it. It was a fighter feat, for sure.
Some of the weapon style feats are a bit odd, or have strange prerequisites. I have a Dwarven Ranger using shielded axe to good effect though.
As for tactical feats some are definitely head scratchers, but I remember a rogue Gnome Giant Killer who got surprisingly good use from Giantbane.
I think the tactical feat structure could serve you well for modeling some fighting styles and martial art combos without having to pay too high a feat cost for flavor with some game impact.
I don't think it's just fluff, or rather, it shouldn't be. I'm hoping for new abilities/mechanics, which is commonly what feats provide.
I am indeed hoping to keep things balanced, which is why I asked for outside suggestions, it's easier to eyeball other people's ideas than your own, balance-wise.
Have you looked into some of the non core tactical feats?
I like the feats you originally posted from SW.
I found that tactical feats as-written are usually a mixed bag. And by mixed I mean 1 good thing and 2 bad. If that. There's only like a couple of tactical feats for unarmed (Sun school and Raptor school, something like that) and they just aren't very good. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind ever taking a tactical feat unless they're VERY committed to an incredibly narrow combat style. Most of those things require you to have the most random collection of feats and gear... Who fights with with like a handaxe and a mace or whatever? That's just retarded. If you're going to require people to meet bizarre requirements, the feat should give more than a +2 to Jump checks when within 50 ft. of a badger. Or whatever the hell they do.
Sorry, pet peeve. Those feats have so much potential and the people writing them seem to think it's an opportunity to make a joke.
@Freesword: Yeah, both of those feats I have used to good effect when making a martial artist. (A HtH fighter, not a useless monk) I almost feel like Superior Unarmed Strike is too much for just one feat, which is why I didn't mention it. I much prefer the SWRPG martial arts feats, especially since a fighter in Paizo could afford to spend a couple more. Snap Kick is spot on, though.
you guys bring up many good points, but the main problem(s) I have with with the monk class is that
1. I often find my self in the situation where I need to charge or spend a full/partial move action to attack an enemy, however I can only do 1 attack because of it, which raises the question" why move so fast when they dont have a [flurry of kicks] feat during a rush?" this is ridonculously simple and doesn't throw off the mechanics by much, if at all...besides it'd make me feel like I'm am playing the pathfinder equivalent of Liu Kang
2. if you take "throw anything" and "precise shot" you really don't have much need to use HtH combat, more so if you play a strict "bare fisted monk" like I do. this balances itself out in the upper lvls though
3. sometimes it feels more like you are playing as a "sparring partner" instead of an unarmed, yet very capable fighter.
4. lastly, many abilities either lack longevity, aren't very practical [cough]Quivering Palm [cough]...or just don't seem very monkish
this class could use something other than stunning fist and scorpion style, they just aren't all that appealing
you guys bring up many good points, but the main problem(s) I have with with the monk class is that
1. I often find my self in the situation where I need to charge or spend a full/partial move action to attack an enemy, however I can only do 1 attack because of it, which raises the question" why have monks move so fastwhen they dont have a [flurry of kicks] featduring a rush?" this is ridonculously simple and doesn't throw off the mechanics by much, if at all...besides it'd make me feel like mI am playing the pathfinder equivalent of Liu Kang
2. if you take "throw anything" and "precise shot" you really don't have much need to use HtH combat, more so if you play a strict "bare fisted monk" like I do. this balances itself out in the upper lvls though
3. sometimes it feels more like you are playing as a "sparring partner" instead of an unarmed, yet very capable fighter.
4. lastly, many abilities either lack longevity, aren't very practical [cough]Quivering Palm [cough]...or just don't seem very monkish
this class could use something other than stunning fist and scorpion style, they just aren't all that appealing
Well, the thread wasn't really to discuss monks. It was basically to increase options for martial artists of any class, although because I'm relying on feats it's obviously skewed towards fighter.
Frankly, I flat-out despise the current monk. The only bits that I'm kind of okay with are the jumping and damage increases. I'd just as soon have them do away with the monk altogether and give options for interesting HtH tricks. There's loads of feats for melee fighting, but I find that they usually lend themselves better to armed combat. Just want to mix that up a bit.
you guys bring up many good points,
Well, the thread wasn't really to discuss monks. It was basically to increase options for martial artists of any class, although because I'm relying on feats it's obviously skewed towards fighter.
Frankly, I flat-out despise the current monk. The only bits that I'm kind of okay with are the jumping and damage increases. I'd just as soon have them do away with the monk altogether and give options for interesting HtH tricks. There's loads of feats for melee fighting, but I find that they usually lend themselves better to armed combat. Just want to mix that up a bit.
I cannot believe what I'm about to say, but I agree with you whole heartedly, though I like the monks...saying they pale in comparison to the other base classes isn't really an understatement.
moreover to add to the martial arts that this thread was formed to discuss, I would love a more stylized and practical approach towards unarmed fighting in general, not just to fuill my monk void.
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on the fighter side, they seem a little wonky themselves, but I have hope that they'll better represent the abilities of these classe in the "gamma release"
moreover to add to the martial arts that this thread was formed to discuss, I would love a more stylized and practical approach towards unarmed fighting in general, not just to fuill my monk void.
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on the fighter side, they seem a little wonky themselves, but I have hope that they'll better represent the abilities of these classe in the "gamma release"
Yeah, the D&D approach is kind of middle of the road crunchy. People (including me) don't want it going the route of Champions/Heroes with all that math and combat rounds that last a game session. On the other hand, not many people would approve of a more-descriptive less roll-intensive system like Exalted used with its bonus dice for elaborate actions. I try not to rock the boat, but I'd like more game options than "I do unarmed damage."
Damage spells come in various flavors, like fire/acid/etc. Weapons get all kinds of interesting props like making trip attacks and having reach. I just want a little variety in the foot-fist way.
I'd be very surprised if Monks didn't get made over pretty thoroughly for final, discussing how much they're garbage has taken up a lot of people's time. Unfortunately, I have my suspicions that the Paizo folks won't let go of the "mystic" aspect, which is really contrived and useless.
One thing mentioned earlier that I'd really love an answer to:
what was the original idea, if any, behind Quivering Palm? It seems to me like someone watched one too many old martial arts movies. The mechanic has very little use in-game, and appears at high enough levels that it wastes space. Heck, if nothing else, replace it with a bonus feat.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you on wanting more unarmed combat options, monk and otherwise.
quivering palm is basically the abused baatard child of the Dim Mak many do not like it because it can only be used once a week, and it does not automatically kill the enemy, you must decide for yourself, as if their is a decision...anyways this ability does not work on constructs,oozes, plants, undead or incorporeal creatures...or cretures unaffected by crits so it leaves you with few options
they could have just made an honest to Irori Dim Mak and got on wit their bidness, but...I guess that is what you call a "critical miss"
1. I often find my self in the situation where I need to charge or spend a full/partial move action to attack an enemy, however I can only do 1 attack because of it, which raises the question" why move so fast when they dont have a [flurry of kicks] feat during a rush?"
Why can't they do that? Because D&D isn't Crouching Superhero Hidden Dragon, and it isn't Naruto either. If the game rules prohibit a man with two sword from moving up to an enemy and hitting him with both blades, then they surely should alos prohibit a monk from dangling on hidden guitar strings and multi-kicking an ogre in the face at the end of a move.
On the other hand, the idea behind your question is quite good. Why is a monk so fast when he has no way to take advantage of that speed?
I sure wouldn't mind seeing a class ability like the scout Skirmish. Or even a lesser class ability like 2x damage on a charge. That would give them benefit for using that speed.
2. if you take "throw anything" and "precise shot" you really don't have much need to use HtH combat, more so if you play a strict "bare fisted monk" like I do. this balances itself out in the upper lvls though
Maybe I am missing it, but how does Throw Anything and Precise Shot grand you enough ranged attacks to compensate for the Flurry of Blows, unarmed damage, grappling, AoOs, etc., that a monk gets in melee? Please educate me.
3. sometimes it feels more like you are playing as a "sparring partner" instead of an unarmed, yet very capable fighter.
Mainly because you are an unarmed, yet mostly incapable fighter.
4. lastly, many abilities either lack longevity, aren't very practical [cough]Quivering Palm [cough]...or just don't seem very monkish
I get the Quivering Palm thing. Who was the genius behind that one, anyway? Even with a decent 20 WIS (yeah, right, 20 WIS on a melee class?) the save DC is only 22. Wizard spells at that level are probably looking at a DC of 26 or more and almost never require an attack roll AND a save and further, those wizards can do that multiple times per day, not just once per week.
But what lacks longevity? And what doesn't feel monkish?
this class could use something other than stunning fist and scorpion style, they just aren't all that appealing
Right again.
I sure hope the monk preview lets us see some good old-fashioned monkiecheese...
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One thing mentioned earlier that I'd really love an answer to:
what was the original idea, if any, behind Quivering Palm? It seems to me like someone watched one too many old martial arts movies. The mechanic has very little use in-game, and appears at high enough levels that it wastes space. Heck, if nothing else, replace it with a bonus feat.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you on wanting more unarmed combat options, monk and otherwise.
It is from old kung-fu movies...it's also from 1e...so it's pretty old.
Why can't they do that? Because D&D isn't Crouching Superhero Hidden Dragon, and it isn't Naruto either. If the game rules prohibit a man with two sword from moving up to an enemy and hitting him with both blades, then they surely should alos prohibit a monk from dangling on hidden guitar strings and multi-kicking an ogre in the face at the end of a move.
correct me if I'm wrong, but, you seem to think that I am implying that this "flurry of kicks" will be a full FOB, scaled to the players monk lvl
e.g. 5 kicks at lvl 20^this would more or less equate to ryu's Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku(uber-spin kick) I actually intended it to be like a Butterfly kick which is basically an air cartwheel with two kicks during the rotation, any more kicks would throw off the monks mechanics.
On the other hand, the idea behind your question is quite good. Why is a monk so fast when he has no way to take advantage of that speed?
I have yet to adress this strange issue, as it kind of accentuates some negative aspects of the monks.
I sure wouldn't mind seeing a class ability like the scout Skirmish. Or even a lesser class ability like 2x damage on a charge. That would give them benefit for using that speed.
me likey
Maybe I am missing it, but how does Throw Anything and Precise Shot grand you enough ranged attacks to compensate for the Flurry of Blows, unarmed damage, grappling, AoOs, etc., that a monk gets in melee? Please educate me.
2. if you take "throw anything" and "precise shot" you really don't have much need to use HtH combat, more so if you play a strict "bare fisted monk" like I do.
...btw I forgot to include rapid shot and many shot
Mainly because you are an unarmed, yet mostly incapable fighter.
CLARIFICATION: PF monks are essentially the Karate Kid
But what lacks longevity? And what doesn't feel monkish?
I'll start with "doesn't feel monkish
1. Perfect Self, I know what they were trying to go for with this but the way in which it was executed...is a little wonky, as it reduces magic damage instead of, say bludgeoning damage. in achieving perfect self, the monk shouldn't become a magical creature as that clashes with the idea of a traditonal monk, this could easily be substituted with the loss of weapon restriction (the monk becomes able to wield every weapon...or sumthin like that2. Tongue of Sun and Moon, I feel like this ability is better suited to a bard or cleric.
lacking longevity
1. the main culprit is the ki pool, why have all those points if you can only use one at a time for a ki strike, why not spend 3 points for two extra attacks, 5 for 3?
2. Empty Body, what the hell am I supposed to do with that?
hope that help edumacate ya *wink*
It is from old kung-fu movies...it's also from 1e...so it's pretty old.One thing mentioned earlier that I'd really love an answer to:
what was the original idea, if any, behind Quivering Palm? It seems to me like someone watched one too many old martial arts movies. The mechanic has very little use in-game, and appears at high enough levels that it wastes space. Heck, if nothing else, replace it with a bonus feat.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you on wanting more unarmed combat options, monk and otherwise.
wow, that is old!
It is from old kung-fu movies...it's also from 1e...so it's pretty old.One thing mentioned earlier that I'd really love an answer to:
what was the original idea, if any, behind Quivering Palm? It seems to me like someone watched one too many old martial arts movies. The mechanic has very little use in-game, and appears at high enough levels that it wastes space. Heck, if nothing else, replace it with a bonus feat.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you on wanting more unarmed combat options, monk and otherwise.
Anyone remember Jeane Claude, the Muscles from Brussels, in his first major role as Frank Dux in Bloodsport?
He performed the Dim Mak - evidently it was required as a test to prove he was worthy of entering the underground Kumite fighting tournament. To prove his knowledge, he broke a brick at the bottom of a stack of bricks.
This was supposed to be a true story of a real man, Frank Dux, who really lived and did much of what the movie depicts. I still think it's JCVD's best movie to date.
Ain't Hollywood grand?
I first heard of the Dim Mak, long before I saw it in any movie, from real martial arts teachers who seemed to be suggesting that it was real. None of them could even tell me what it is - hush hush, very secret, they could tell me they'd have to kill me kind of thing. I must become a nth level blackbelt before anyone would dare share such deadly secrets.
Hogwash. My jujitsu teacher taught me dozens of ways to kill a man with my bare hands. Why would one more make any difference at all?
Personally, I think those martial arts instructors had been watching too many kung-fu movies too.
Do I think there are techniques that can kill a man? Aboslutely. I learned many such tenchniques from my Jujitsu instructor. Real Japanese jujitsu, not the MMA ground-n-pound form that, while effective, is only a fraction of the entire Jujitsu art form.
Do I think a heart can be stopped by a special tricky sneaky attack that never touches the heart? Possibly, but I doubt it. You want to stop a heart, then hit the brain. Not the heart. Or damage the heart directly, like with a knife or sword or spear that actually penetrates flesh and slashes/severs heart muscle tissue. I doubt that rattling it around a bit will stop it. The heart is built to take a beating (no pun intended).
Do I think a bottom brick can be pulverized without breaking the ones above it, by a special tricky sneaky attack againt the top brick that never touches the bottom brick? Nope. All the laws of phisics say that the harder you hit the top brick, the more that impact is transferred to the top brick. But if you begin pressing down slowly, gradually increasing the pressure, the top brick suffers only the pressure you apply, but each lower brick suffers that same pressure AND the pressure of gravity pulling down the mass of the upper bricks. Gradual pressure should break the bottom brick (assuming none of the bricks have flaws, fractures, weaknesses, etc.) because the combined weight of all the other bricks helps put the most pressure on the lowest brick. Hollywood be damned.
Does the Dim Mak exist? Mostly in the minds of fiction writers and martial arts fans. Could it be a real death-touch that really kills without all the hocus pocus? Absolutely. But not likely in the way Hollywood wants us to believe.
Or the way Gary Gygax and his many game-developing proteges want us to believe.
But it's still fun - assuming we get an implementation that makes it playable.
Man, I hate to participate in jacking my own thread, but I'll tell you what doesn't feel monkish:
Flurry of Blows being lame - Here's a grand idea, either give a full base to a class whose major (only?) contribution to the party is in the form of combat. Or give something else to a low level monk and let them have flurry at fourth or fifth level, when they actually get an attack bonus for it.
Dex/Str/Wis/Con requirements - Too much. Personally I think there should be a default ability to let the Monk choose which stat modifies their attack AND damage rolls. Int, Str, Dex or Wis.
Ki pool - This idea sucked before with ninjas, and it sucks now with monks. The barbarian point system was decent, and it might have been cut anyway. Please let the more cumbersome and less useful monk point system go the same way. I didn't spend eighteen years in a monastery learning to punch through stone so that I could have math adventures.
Maneuver training - Actually decent. Except that it just brings them up to the same level as a fighter. Give them a full base and a +4 to maneuvers instead.
Slow fall - This should come in like three steps. 20 feet, 50 feet, and infinite. Don't slap this on 8 or 9 class levels and pretend that it counts as a class ability. Frankly, if you're doing something all wuxia like slow fall any distance, you don't need to be near a wall either.
Wholeness of body - Weak. Not at all monkish either. Should just give DR or something.
Diamond body - Should have gotten it at fifth or so. Also sucks.
Abundant step - Seriously, what? KARATE DOESN'T TEACH YOU TO TELEPORT.
Diamond soul - It's not terrible, but it certainly isn't very monk-like. They don't do magic, they don't have anything to do with magic. Why do they have all these magic related class abilities?
Quivering Palm - Should stay with the assassin, where it belongs.
Timeless body/Tongue of the sun... - These aren't class abilities. They're fluff. Everyone can talk to everything by that level anyway. And timeless body should be in the flavor text somewhere. Nothing ages magically anymore, and a game that lasts years is rare; and still probably doesn't go on long enough to get into aging.
Empty body - See abundant step.
Perfect self - I reach the pinnacle of mortal achievement, and suddenly my type changes to native outsider? WHY? Other people get holy championism, master hunterness, master strikes... I get immunity to a handful of spells that say "person", but vulnerability to the exact same spell if it says "creature" or "monster" or whatever? Why do game designers hate monks so much?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Anyone remember Jeane Claude, the Muscles from Brussels, in his first major role as Frank Dux in Bloodsport?
This was supposed to be a true story of a real man, Frank Dux, who really lived and did much of what the movie depicts. I still think it's JCVD's best movie to date.
I prefer Time Cop.
What I remember from Bloodsport was the cappocoria (sp) battle dancer vs the Sumo wrestler. little guy was fast, but when the Sumo caught him up and crushed him until his back broke I cheered and said "Score one for the fat guy!!"
Oh, back to the thread.
Anyone remember Jeane Claude, the Muscles from Brussels, in his first major role as Frank Dux in Bloodsport?
This was supposed to be a true story of a real man, Frank Dux, who really lived and did much of what the movie depicts. I still think it's JCVD's best movie to date.
I prefer Time Cop.
What I remember from Bloodsport was the cappocoria (sp) battle dancer vs the Sumo wrestler. little guy was fast, but when the Sumo caught him up and crushed him until his back broke I cheered and said "Score one for the fat guy!!"
Oh, back to the thread.
Not to quibble, but I'm fairly sure the little guy to whom you refer was a practitioner of Monkey-style Kung Fu.
He even did the monkeyish facial expressions and body language. Fairly authentic actually, but just about any martial arts style, especially one that emphasizes speed and mobility over power will be quite helpless against Sumo wrestlers - those guys can take almost infinite small punishments and when they finally get you, it's game over.