Shards of the Titanswar

Game Master EldonG

At 100' away, in the shadowy light, I posted three as soon as I was asked, even though that's better than the game assumes for humans. No, you can't tell exactly how many people there are in a rush of 10 or more, and the boat is about 15-16 feet long, it takes up space along that walkway - nor did the captain try to back it into place - I had already posted that there were doors along either side - several along each - that leaves some behind you. Reiko was attacked by one coming from a side door, as mentioned. The little quickie map was to illustrate the basics, but there's no way I'd ever expect a full grasp of what's going on within the instant it happens, when there are double digit people involved.

Is there any of that logic I should be faulted for? Really?

Consider - this place is lit by a handful of flickering candles, nothing more. Yes, that's plenty of light for elves - but I can't imagine anyone is simply trying to get a perfect count.

Ok - I admit to a little frustration when I made the above post. I ask you to consider this - it's a bit of a confusing situation - it's supposed to be. Literally within a matter of seconds, four to six doors have opened on either side of this huge room, disgorging one or two people each, into the shadowy candlelit space. It's happening ahead of you, and behind you, on the left, and on the right.

This is an issue I've always had with miniatures gaming - it gives you the big picture, in detail, every time, even when you shouldn't be able to have all of the details so quickly.

The fact that we only just found out that there are three visible dogs is a big deal.

The fact that there are more than ten is a big deal.

Neither of these facts were mentioned. Knowing that there are a dozen or more enemies is far different from knowing that there are seven, which is the only number we had when I said I did not understand. 'at least two casters, at least two armored, and at least three men with daggers, also at least three dogs.'

I understand that you want to conserve information to instill panic and it's ilk, but you tend to conserve too much, so that we can't really react to situations properly. Not 'deal with', but 'react to'.

Likewise, one player readied an action to do x,and you said it would go off, but apparently, no matter what she does we get hit by three enemies, with no time to react.

Your frustration is very much showing when you give information we need and then a few hours later have that information become old news. This coming within a game where your players have notoriously taken weeks to get back to you. I can understand impatience, as I am also a DM, but punishing us for not going the precise speed you want (in which we have to wait for gm confirmation, because questions have been asked, multiple times, and never answered, thus leaving us unable to react), no slower and assuredly no faster, is a good way of biting your players for something that I definitely have zero control over.

This is not the game I was expecting it to be, at all. I can understand you wanting to speed it up, but getting frustrated when those who are quick to respond, for asking more questions isn't really a good idea. I'll see what I can through to the end, but I play to have fun... And I'm really not.

I do believe I have some things to offer by way of advice.

What you are doing probably works great for tabletop. Being able to spring things on your players in an instant is great there, and would keep a vibe going. Here, though, it rapidly becomes a chore. Asking 'what is he wearing' in a tabletop game takes literally seconds to get feedback on. Here, it takes hours. You -have- to front load information as a DM. Tell them all the major stuff, and prod them to investigate the things they're interested in. If you don't, immersion goes out the window as we wait for hours to get information that will guide our actions. This adds literally days to a campaign when not done properly. Worse, it takes a little weight off of you and puts a lot on every other player.

Second, you have to be responsive and attentive. Players will lose faith in a DM quickly when they miss a ton. I've seen literally ten actions, questions, and requests in the last month that slipped through without acknowledgement until the player nudged you again. And even then, it isn't always answered. This is immensely frustrating as a player.

Those first two are really your only jobs as a DM, any more is gravy. Provide a backdrop, and give a person reasons to exist there. That being said, I have a few more things that may help.

Third, do not be afraid to set expectations. Say what you want. With all but the best players, you must herd them like cats. Even with the best players, providing guidance is key. The fastest pace game I have is filled with responsive players and a DM who pushes us forward gently.

Fourth, this is one that I work very hard to do, avoid gotchas, and actively reward players for doing things that make some degree of sense. Yes is a very, very powerful word in a Dm's toolkit. Far more powerful than no. Yes inspires things. Yes rewards players for getting into things and investigating things. Yes directly creates a pattern on play by post of 'if you are active, good things will happen'. Avoid, very strongly, any sort of gotcha moment. If you punish players for opening doors, or going in front, you definitely create unease, but you also create a great deal of tension. Out of game. That lasts for weeks due to pacing. Constant apprehension will drown your players and your game. (I have not seen much of this, but ad it is my cardinal rule as a DM, I would be remiss to not mention it).

I'm not sure if any of that will actually help... but in its current positioning, the game feels very frustrating. It is slow. My actions don't feel like they matter. I'm spending more time trying to understand the situation at hand than I actually am playing. And in some cases that can be really great, because it means I'm thinking about it... but in this instance, it's like... trudging. I'm having to ask for the shapes of buildings. Ask if there are Windows. Ask how many dogs we see. Ask if there is anything else at all on the island. Ask for basic information about the room we are in. Ask if anyone in town knows anything. That's all told something like twenty questions (including repeatedly asking the same ones). It feels as though I am fighting to be able to exist and make a difference in this game... And that's a real downer. Once we're at a good stopping place for Nala to pass off the reigns (if possible), I would like to leave. But I would like to leave the game better for me having been here, if possible.

As unfortunate as it can be for story elements in a lot of cases, pathfinder is very much a miniature based game. Characters are built and decisions are made on things that are finite pieces of gameplay, such as reach, positioning, feat utility, and the like.

Knowing what is going on, on the map, is a very big part of that. Hidden enemies are ok, but players know and expect that they have to succeed at stealth checks to surprise players. As such, we buff perception. Having them come out of nowhere while we get no way of countering that leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, especially after our mythic powers have been found to be different than what we expected.

Not that I don't like this game. I love the setting, the plot so far, my character, and the people in the group with me.

I think the best fix is to start using tokens on your maps you draw. I know that would go a long way to helping me see what going on and what decisions to make. A lot of the time, when there are a lot of enemies, I don't really feel like I'm doing anything more than "I attack the guy who hit me" most of the time.

I know my posting rate has been sporadic for a long while now, but I got shifted into a new job that pretty much eats all of my time, and it's hard to keep up with all of my long term games. I'm still here and I appreciate you guys bumping me and rolling init and things like that.

All in all, I think what we need is just more clarification on a lot of things, especially if they are going to change rules that we take for granted. Not that I am against those rules being changed, but just asking for a heads up is all.

*Raises hand*

I recommend using Google Docs and putting a map on there. Have "tokens" as separate pictures on top of the main map. Easy substitute for a VTT, and it can provide us with a good sense of what's going on in complicated battles where maps might make a real difference. ^^

*Absolutely in favor of anything that makes stuff easier on the GM*

I also love the setting, and I love the story. Those are the things that kept me interested as long as I have been.

I asked for feedback from the very beginning.

I begged for it. I explained, in detail, that with regular feedback, and constructive criticism, I'd do what I could to fine-tune the game.

I got none...then I got a little, and people quit. People just quit. Now, I finally have feedback, and an 'it's getting so frustrating, I'm just waiting for the right time to quit'.

Damn, that's encouraging.

I quit.

Forget it.

I have struggled for so long, 'herding cats', that I just don't need it.

You say that I don't put out enough information? I put out more complete descriptions of things than several games I've seen run on here, but it's never enough. When I state some things, I have to go back and do it again and again - I can't even keep track of the number of times I've had to expound upon how the little village of Lakeroot is in fact a tiny village, without all the things you'd expect to find in a city - or even a town...and there's even a map.

The game is very much dependent on the actions people take. There's a city nearby, and I even posted the map, ages ago it's an option, and a big one. The pacing has been non-stop, even though it's moved at a snail's pace - because that's what people have chosen.

Once the monastery was done, the whole thing becomes a sandbox, but I'm already seeing there's no way it'll work out. Already, there are an amazing number of options that people simply ignore.

The only rules I've changed - is how the mythic power works. That's the kind of thing I expect to see in an adventure path that Paizo puts out - they modify any number of little subsystems to make things work. The change really isn't that big, either - it's based on something right there in the mythic rules.

Yes, I do miss things. I'm human. There have even been times when I swore I'd answered a question, only to be reminded I hadn't. I could unload on how much prodding it takes to get simple things answered by players - it happens constantly - but I won't bother. I accept that criticism, and I've worked on it, but I'm human, and getting more forgetful as I get older.

I just about knew this game would fall apart from the beginning, when nobody would give me good feedback. I've seen it too many times. Even when I prod for feedback, people won't, but they can surely throw it all at you when it's an 'I quit' kind of thing.

PS: I was looking for players, not cats to herd.

I knew I'd forgotten to mention something. I completely understand missing things. I really do. It's just the number of them. No one expects perfection, but they need consistency.

To be fair, I've not been here long, and if I remember right, I did offer things as they came up. I also expressed disappointment when things went differently than expected. I've been fairly open with my feelings, though I readily admit that I waited way too long. When it got to feeling like a job, I spoke up. When you reacted rather aggressively, I was done. I understand your frustration, and I do not want to be a continued part of it. I think the game was better off without me.

You should -not- quit because of one player who just joined. If you were frustrated for a while, I understand, but I'm just one of several people, and after joining, I found it wasn't for me. I am not attacking you as a person, actions mattered prior to the island. There are several instances.

Combat is where things really seem to struggle. I assumed while reading through that you were using maps, but now that you aren't (were you ever?), it becomes sort of a mess to describe actions and such. Like they said, it's sort of 'react to what just happened' and being proactive is hard. Look back to the giant fight, as an example. Sakuro spent a third of the fight asking if they were in range yet. Nia has to repeatedly ask for knowledge checks to use her class. I still don't know what even happened with my thunderous or Sakuro's grease. These are not dampening mistakes. These are errors to work on.

At no time have i said you were a bad DM. There are plenty of bad DMs. I'm definitely not a good one. I struggle. I miss things. I can only list the things I did, because they are things I have to (and have had to) work on myself.

I wasn't thinking of going anywhere until I gave criticism, and received a rant in return. This game has been difficult for me to be a player in. That does not mean it has been a problem for the others, or that even the things I have listed have negatively impacted them. Like you, I suffer from depression, and mine has a lot to do with self-worth. That is why I felt that it was better that I leave when I realized I was going to cause more problems than I would fix.

I do have a question though. Would it have been better had I not been up front with my issues and just vanished? If so, just please try to pretend that is what I did, and I'll get out of your hair now.

To everyone else... if this dies because of me, I apologize for destroying something you love. :(

The one time I thought to give feed back I did. Otherwise I have enjoyed the game for the most part.

There were times when we were trying to develop as characters and you stated it was unimportant. That stung but I could understand the frustration from it.

Yes, there are times where I feel ignored even if you may have answered things before. But I chalked that up to there are long times between posts and we can't remember everything. Hence reminders.

The only thing I could think of as advice was, the description you gave here, in discussion would have been perfect in game. It was far more clear to me than the others, but also alluded to the fact there was more.

Also, I didn't want to come off as confrontational since we already started on that foot.

I don't intend to quit. But if you wish to end this we will respect that.

Also, when players ask questions, usually they wait for a response before stating intended action since knowledge of things effects what they will do. Hence part of the slowness of posts.

I've been working 16 hour days, so I have been tired.

My Thoughts on pace.

Part of the reason its fast paced by party choice, is there was a lot going on and we wanted to deal with the problems that were nearby. Since problems kept coming to us I figured we would go hit them.

Yes, there is a city nearby but it takes a week to go back and forth. With the fact a chuthulian monster came down from the mountains, hitting the monastery seemed like the next step to take since we suspected its why the spirit fog came. And we didn't have a reason to go a week out of our way without knowing what we would specifically need.

I can't give advice as a GM. Only as a player.

That really didn't come out right.

You did give me feedback. It was pretty regular. I don't mean to diminish that, and I know I did.

I did miss the thundercloud - that one is on me - but the grease was taken care of. My biggest issue is that the game goes in such utterly unpredictable spurts that I forget things, and/or miss things when it gets going again. That's incredibly frustrating, as I know it's a failure on my part, so I try to keep things flowing - but when people simply don't post for days, my frustration level grows, and I start wondering what's missing.

This recent lull was the most frustrating so far, as I had no feedback at all for days, when things had just picked up, and I had no clue why.

I did use maps for a while, but never tried the maps with tokens like a number do. I can do the maps, but it is a lot of extra work, and the truth of it is, I forget, especially when the game has dragged out.

This is why I was so frustrated in my last post: I had too much invested in you. I knew you were a regular poster, and that you put a lot into the character, and gave feedback. I was hoping that would help me to get others to follow suit a bit more, and I might get the input I felt that I needed, and improve as a PBP GM.

I just turned 54 last month, and I've run games since I was 17 - I have some habits and idiosyncrasies developed over many years that I have a lot of trouble changing for something that's new to me - and at my age, I have trouble changing anything. I'm not as mentally agile as I used to be, and I'm a lot more forgetful, too.

I can't blame you for that, so let me apologize for laying it on you.

No, it definitely would not have been better if you hadn't posted your thoughts.

Something else I put on you - perhaps quite unfairly - the mythic event was supposed to be the thing that pulled the party together - it's a major moment for the campaign, after which, introducing new characters is a very difficult thing, especially to make it make sense within the constraints of the basic storyline. I struggled with how to introduce anybody after it - I knew that moment had passed, and I also knew that without the mythic power, any newcomer would forever be an outsider, and too weak to keep up, while conversely just allowing a character unrestrained access would overshadow the rest of the group. I did what I could.

I had a serious struggle to push myself to continue the game when my father left. I don't know if it's obvious, but that weighs on me pretty heavily.

It really does get to me when anybody leaves - this was envisioned for a minimum of 5-6 characters, and I'd seriously hate to have to weaken it. That just feels so wrong to me.

I did just about everything I could to keep a front-liner in the group, but that failed miserably, time after time - and I never got much explanation from them, either.

The biggest issue that was pointed out to me, earlier, was maps. Battle maps, something I rarely ever use. That wasn't given as the reason anybody left, and I've always said I would provide them, if needed, anytime they're requested. I do forget, but I have provided them when asked.

I expected too much from you. I'm sorry - it wasn't fair. The problem is that without the help I was hoping for - I just don't think I can do it. Nobody gives me the feedback I need.

Sorry, to be clear, the last post was directed to Nala.

Nia:

I'm really sorry about making you feel ignored, I surely never meant to. You may notice that I do sometimes actually shift the focus to you, and what you've done. I seriously never meant for anyone to not develop their characters. I love good character development - but the game has really lagged at times, and I've pushed at times to keep it moving - just the posting speed, more than anything - I dread the situation coming up where the whole things gets bogged down and people quit posting - the game has barely covered a week in over 1 1/2 years.

I really don't mind that you decided, as a group, to wait on the city. That choice is up to the party. That creature was called from the very beginning of the campaign, and surely there are other nefarious things afoot, but the honest truth is that now that that event is passed, it's always been meant to move at the speed the party wanted it to. Actually, it was timed to occur when it needed to, truth be told. It wouldn't have happened for a couple of weeks, had the party decided to take time off.

I really don't mind the reminders when I miss things. It bothers me that I do, but hopefully I don't make that feel like it's in any way your fault. If I seem frustrated, I am - but that's my frustration with me.

That does help, a lot. I'm less apt to run away with my tail between my legs knowing that the reason you acted that way was because you'd needed me. My fight/flight is permanently set to 'freeze'. Online, I'm better able to perform fighting retreats... much to my detriment.

Like I said,I will see what I can through. Nala is also intended to be a frontliner, given her stats, but she can't turn into big scary things yet. She is more a force of nature than a nurturer, by far. We also have two melee folks. I gave her a few support abilities to help keep the party going, alongside Nia, but plan to focus on buff and bear more than healbot.

The problem I face, is that when I try to supplement my 'hit things with a stick' with spells, I'm left with close to no knowledge of what is even possible. As a melee, I hit them back. As a ranged, I hit them back. As a caster... is entangle worth using? Can I hit multiples with sleep? Can I reach with my storm?

If we can get a method for us to see what we're doing now, it'll help me a lot. I'll try to prod more when I see something is amiss. But my default setting is 'avoid all confrontation'. What I said about DMs also goes for good players... and it is a struggle. I'll try to be more vocal in the meantime. If we can improve things as a group, I have no complaints.

As a side note: I have no problems personally with the water thing. It worked out well with my mythic choices. I do feel for people like Sakuro... who gets to not need her spell book for sixty minutes a day, or to mainline the lsd water. :p

Entangle is one of my favorite spells. I've used it against the party, already. Now - within the monastery, there's not much use for it, but it's still one of the best out there for outdoor things.

I'm always open to answering questions - like 'are there any clusters', or is X in range? I'm not sure what you mean by "The problem I face, is that when I try to supplement my 'hit things with a stick' with spells, I'm left with close to no knowledge of what is even possible." - but I'm willing to work with you on it.

Incidentally, I mentioned an issue with my father leaving the game. His biggest issue is that it just moves too slowly. If I seem frustrated when the posts are days apart, and no real progress is being made - that's a big part of the why. We'd talked about it multiple times.

I play another game with him, online, but once he'd joined this game, I really hoped to do something for him - from me.

Yeah, I can understand that. The pace is one of the biggest problems for me, but it's more of a per-player issue. I'm often one of the first to react to something, and with some characters, I'm a leader, with Nala, she's on the outside looking in. That is part of her character, and something I hope to address as the game moves forward. It's hard to bait role play when your character is afraid of attachments. :p

Normally I work to give lots of hooks... but I have trouble doing that when Nala isn't that kind of character. I've already pushed her beyond comfort a few times.

I intend for her to come off as a weathered tree... still alive, but with a lot of dead wood.

Yeah the Mythic thing with the water doesn't help Passive abilities like the ones I wanted to take for Nia. Those are designed to be always on. But that's okay. It Fits in the way that Nia won't drink the water and would just try to get things on her own merit and I think I will stick with that. She was designed as support.

THAT being said, I can actually switch her to a frontliner with just a few tweaks. Bards aren't bad at holding their own.

Sometimes people will wait on the GM too and I think that might be part of the issue. We await feedback but don't bump to say, hey, can you answer this so I can move. So that is something we can improve upon.

16 hour workdays don't help me but Ill try to pick up the pace myself.

Also, I am good with maps!

If you ever need help drawing them or making them I can do it!!

I even got bored once and built the Caves of Chaos in Minecraft to scale. Secret doors and all.

With the lack of a frontliner glaring, with a little hefty retrain, I can make Reiko a solid frontliner.

Of course, it would have to be part of the story, perhaps something he finds in the monastery partially warps him into the abyssal creature he made himself in the past, or such.

Basically, I make him an abyssal bloodline magus archetype, and take the mythic abyssal bloodline feat. He would be solidly capable of dealing frontline damage, and with a frat retrain, would be able to take hits like a tank.

Of course, I'm fine with keeping him as he is also. Up to Eldon.

Speaking of frontlining, Reiko, would you like to be bigger? ^^ Sakuro has Enlarge Person available right now.

I want people to do what they want with their characters. I'd almost forgotten to try to find someone to take over Baldek - it was such a shame to lose him.

The axe's main importance is less meaningful since the big encounter is over, but it's a lot more powerful than anybody realizes.

Like the big scary book Sakuro started with.

...I'm not entirely sure that I want to know how powerful it really is. XD

The axe isn't as powerful as the book. That's been fairly well established. :)

Nyahahahahahaha~

Well, I doubt that thing's been written out quite yet, though it may not be relevant for awhile. (Or it might, I dunno!)

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing more of it in the future. ^^ Scary, freakishly strong books are fun!

Oh, it's a vital thing. It won't leave you alone, not too easily.

Right now, I'm assuming it's on its way to the dwarven temple. That's another scenario - somewhat enhanced by its presence. ;)

Nia still thinks everyone was being Rude to it. :P

But she never got to engage in polite conversation with it. After all in her "circles" you dance with the devil many times. After all, we all know there is always corruption amongst "nobles"

It's my guess that you'll get your chance. ;)

Nala's action will stay full defensive, keeping herself between the tiny mage Sakuro and the enemy (to grant soft cover) until such time that I can do something else besides that or cast. :)

Reiko is pretty much in the same position as everyone else, I think. Stuck behind Antonio. The only actions most of us have from back here is turning our own magic back off.

Yes, but he can take actions, now that the fear has worn off. Heck, there are ranged weapons in the group. I think. I certainly hope. :P

Nala has a sling, but short of moving away from the big guy, she can't possibly hit a target -through- him. Which means she'd just be throwing rocks at really long ranges and hoping.

I don't recall whether anyone else has a ranged weapon besides Antonio (who usually fires and drops his crossbow).

I do. Just haven't hit anything.

Is it another round already?

I have a bow, I'm just waiting on confirmation that my fear effect is gone. That, and with Antonio's size, he grants cover to all of the enemies in front of him, so ranged attacks are pointless.

There are the ones hanging back by the doors. The casters.

It was 2 rounds. You're good.

I will be traveling Spain for a week without my laptop. I will have phone but expect posting to be minimal.

You may bot me if necessary.

Also, Any suggestions on what to visit around Santa Susanna?

Enjoy the trip, Nia. Sounds like a blast.

On another note - Reiko? Are we losing you?

I haven't been out of the country since I was like 5... and that was only going across the great lakes to say we had. Sorry, I don't know much about foreign countries.

No, I'm still here. Just a combination of waaaaay to many things going on in my life at the moment. I'm trying like mad to keep up with the plethora of games I'm in but it's a downhill slide. Please feel free to bot me for now. You know how he acts, so I feel comfortable with you playing him. Life should level out soon, though, so don't expect me to be gone for too long!

Ok, I get ya. Life is what happens - you know the rest.

I have returned from my trip. I will post what I can tonight and tomorrow. I hope everyone had a great week!

Honestly, it's been a lot of 'rawrgleblargh'. on my end. :)

How was your trip? What were the highlights?

Trip was great, Highlights would be Rupit and Montserrat. Definitely plan on visiting both again.

Hello? Not a single post since Tuesday, that one mine? Is the game being abandoned?

My character has been incapable of doing virtually anything, save for waste spells, for 5 weeks. My interest is in very, very poor shape. In fact... I am still sitting here behind the very large guy, who is standing in a pool of grease, and taking up the entire hallway. I can't seem to pass him. That hasn't changed. For five weeks.

As for abandoned... not so much. Though I am considering dropping it again. Along with several other games, I've slipped pretty heavily towards depression in the last few weeks. I've had anxiety problems for well over a year and they've gotten pretty bad lately. I'm leaning strongly towards just pulling out of all the games that I don't explicitly love, thus making room for others in the ones that want to recruit, and just... having one less responsibility in those that the DMs either don't feel they need me, or don't feel the game is worth continuing.

Anybody that really feels 'squishy' may have noticed by now - the cultists are no tougher than the average farmer, nor more skilled... :P

They're actually the exact same as the first encounter of the whole campaign - they're the same people, after all, just the ones that weren't there that night.

I think its more when he went enlarged. He prevented anyone from really getting past him to engage in melee. I'm one of the few that had a ranged weapon that wasn't a spell.

Just preparation in this one.

I can understand the frustration of not being able to do anything. Hence why I always have ranged and none ranged.

People can climb onto the boat and climb into theirs

As I recall, I wasn't here for that encounter. XD Also, force of habit - squishy character goes in the back, especially until they have enough levels to really come into their own. Given that I have no idea how big this area is or what's up ahead, I've elected to save Sakuro's energy for now... so, basically, I'm just waiting for the encounter to end and the group to move forward. I've nothing to contribute at the moment.

Not a complaint, just pointing out that you might not be as squishy as you might think. :)