I think the worst part is: Mithral Armored Coat sounds neat on paper... but it is in every way inferior to Breastplate (save for time to don; but why take it off?), inferior in every way to Mithral Chain (Again, why would you take it off?), and costs 3950 more gold to make a mithral armored coat than a mithral chain shirt. Worse... I can't imagine how it could possibly be mroe restrictive to wear a coat with armored plates than it is to wear a chain shirt (especially since the former is lighter than the latter!)
I think the draw to armor coat is the short on and off time.
If you were asleep without armor and you caravan is attacked, would you rather have armor coat or chain shirt?
Possibly also for abilities that require at least medium armor. Not sure what that would be, but I'm sure there's at least one.
Besides, Mythral shirts is for hobbitses. :P
Actually: There's no penalty for sleeping in chain shirt. The only real draw to armored coat as a personal use item is getting ambushed as you get out of the bath tub :P
I love it in concept, but in execution, it's just not that exceptional. I'm leaning towards allowing it to be a light armor at my tables as yours did... because dusters and such are sure to be really common for specific character types, and a slightly more restrictive (due to where the weight is held) chain shirt with a quicker don time (and slightly cheaper) will have a much wider audience, I think. :)
Well, it's not the only one—and at least Armored Coats have *a* benefit (the faster removal thing). There's also no reason to wear splint mail, banded mail, half-plate, scale mail, chainmail, hide shirt, or padded armor, while hide armor and stoneplate are useless except to druids.
And again, as poor-man armor as well. Pretty much that, Jack. I actually tried to make weapons make a lot more sense a while back by using a 'point' system with them, and may just do the same for armor. I don't like that there are break points where x armor is just better. 1/8 6/3 and 9/1 are really awkward break points, too. Probably worth toying with, but it'd be really easy to mess up the system.
Well, that's why most gaming systems go through a lot of playtesting (though some less than others) before true implementation. If the system is "messed up" you'll know when you try it out a few or more times and alter it accordingly and repeat until its either just right or "close enough" (which a lot of systems seem to go for).
I like your idea and hope it pans out for you. Maybe if you perfect it that you would maybe let me try it out?
I just let people flavor things a bit differently—no reason some of the eastern armor stats can't be used for western armors, and vice-versa. It's the same with weapons, and animals for that matter—the animal companion rules say that a "cow" companion can be an ox or a bison, a "cat" can be a lion or tiger, a "bird" an eagle or an owl, etc.
:p for future's saying sake. Tripling Sergei's carrying capacity gives him a 400 light load. This means he can carry three of whatever Simon is carrying, plus three Simons :p
....Wow.. noted.
Edit: Dangit! I keep accidentally posting as my main account... Well... it seems other people have done it as well, so I'm not the only one.
I was wondering how all those suspicious persons had been sneaking onto the player list...
I don't think it was so much the maximum capacity as it was that we could have everyone working at once.
Simon would just be watching otherwise and that wouldn't really be fair. XD
I'm surprised I haven't posted as my standard name yet. It'll happen. Trust me. XD
Sergei would never accidentally be acrobat from other roleplay. Honestly, the worst part is I -always- check -after- I click submit. And then it's too late.
Simon has brought to my attention that maybe we should define the characters relationships to one another.
How close are they as a whole? How close they are they to one another? What kind of history they have?
Both me and Simon think that it would be beneficial and help the campaign if the characters have more connections with each other than just "they were part of the cirque." Did they help each other out of any situations? Did they gift knowledge to one another (stories, advice, practical) or give each other gifts? Etc.
Maybe everyone could have a web of their connections to everyone else?
Simon's-
Zathyl: Best friend, like a brother, favorite person to tent and talk with.
Sergei:?
Jack:?
Scout:?
Veilwar:?
If people would like to suggest things, I'm up for as much or as little as you'd like to do? Are they friends? How long have they known each other? How much do they trust each other? Are they ever "recreational" with each other?(don't put it past him. It's part of his personality. ;P ) Do they find him annoying sometimes? Should he find them annoying sometimes?
Up to you. I'm down with anything you want to do. Anyone that wants to make up a story about something crazy He's done, trouble he's caused or gotten in, anything is fine. Main guideline is that he doesn't kill people or cause unnecessary harm and that he doesn't force things on people. Like most Enchantment spells, "nothing against a creature's nature." ;)
I'd say Sergei's is in line with 'everyone would consider him a good friend or family' assuming their alignment was on the good side. He's a very simple man, after all. :)
I'm assuming that Jack is closer to whoever's doing acrobatics, although most of his friends have probably left at this point. He's not a very outgoing fellow.
Simon's-
Zathyl: Best friend, like a brother, favorite person to tent and talk with.
Sergei:Good friend. Just about Simon's age as well, so easy to get along with. If they know each other well-ish, you might want to take a look at the second to last paragraph of my last post. You can PM me the answers if you prefer it that way.
Jack:Acquaintance. Trying to get to know him better. Also his age. Not quite as close, but Simon is still rather possesive of all of his friends if they're threatened or victims of prejudice. So they're not necessarily best buds, but Simon would still hypnotise a town guard for giving him a hard time. You might also care to answer that paragraph?
Scout:?
Veilwar:?
Sergei is very predictable, as a general rule. He does tend to rush into things whenever he's feeling particularly passionate about something (such as hurting his friends or family), but otherwise, Simon is more likely to get annoyed at Sergei for being 'boring'. Though it's pretty likely your character wouldn't say it, I'm guessing :P Sergei very much likes the ladies, though he's unlikely to admit it in even close-to-mixed company. It is very hard to annoy Sergei unless you repeatedly do things you know are bad... or haven't built up a wall of tolerance with him. :)
So that one doesn't change much.
Simon wouldn't call him boring openly. Sergei's a nice enough guy. He just isn't terribly interesting. Simon doesn't really think of things that way. It doesn't occur to him that he would be "boring" per say. Simon would still listen to all of his stories. He likes stories.
I actually had a thought about a feat that would involve Sergei. Are you familiar with Mage's Tattoo?
If you mean Varisian Tattoo... yahuh. :) Bear in mind Sergei isn't the tattoo artist; his dead mother was. :)
I personally don't think Sergei is boring. Nice job on portraying that accent by the way. When ever I read your posts I can just see this big guy talking and I forget that he's just a character.
Sergislav: I can just see Zathyl liking him, enjoying his company and discussing stuff about his homeland and maybe Zathyl's early Tribal life.
Simon: He put it plain and simple. I say best buds and very accepting of each other.
Jack: Zathyl probably understands his situation better than most people, but will let him have his space (if that's they way Jack is).
Scout: .... thing in common is understanding of animals... but I don't know what they would talk about.
Veilwar: Post some more bud! I get it that your character is the cautious, few words type, but I need some more to work with.
Scout has spent a lot of time working with the horses. Right now he's probably the primary guy doing that as well as being permanent night watchman. He gets along fine with Jack. They both do Acrobatics and see in the dark.
There's probably some minor friction between Scout and Simon. Nothing serious, but Scout has a tendency to be somewhat mission oriented and Simon seems to be playing all the time.
Scout should get along ok with everybody else.
So Scout finds Simon slightly exasperating and Simon feels like he needs to find a way for Scout to get laid so he might chill out a little bit. :P
Would you find it more interesting if Simon thought Scout liked him just fine, that he was just kind of grumpy a lot?
So Simon would joke with him like he does with most everybody and Scout would react however you like?
Very sorry, have been having trouble getting online for the past few days...for some reason my connection kept failing..but seems stable now!
Sergislav: Being big, loud and somewhat outgoing, Veilwar is suspicious of the fellow. He reminds him of those who use to hunt his people in the marshes. Despite that, he still like to hear the man's stories and laughs at his jokes.
Simon: Again, being 'loud and flashy', Veilwar shys away from him, but that does not mean he dislikes him. His ways are so very different from those of Veilwar's people, that the wayang is somewhat fascinated by the strange fellow.
Jack: Flat out, Veilwar is terrified of Jack. Orcs were one of the creatures who 'fed' upon his people in the swamps and were feared and hated. While he has gotten to know Jack fairly well over the years, the man still frightens him.
Scout: Strangely enough, Veilwar is probably closest to Scout and is probably the only one in the circus he would actually call friend. While he works and lives with all the performers, the wayang seems to be most at ease with the little 'puppet'. Perhaps it is because they are both small, or maybe the magic the created the gnome-like golem, who knows, but if Veilwar has a friend in the circus, it is Scout.
Zathyl: Again, the wayang is somewhat drawn to the Volo. Back in his swamp the wayang had made peace with a number of other 'barbaric' tribes, and a tribe of Volo were one of these. It could also be his magical talent that makes Veilwar seek him out. Whatever the reason, next to scout, Zathyl is the closest thing to a friend Veilwar has.
That last reaction from Simon sounds fine.
Heh. Jack probably finds it hilarious that Veilwar is afraid of him. Yeah, he's probably closest to Scout. He also probably has some personal respect for Sergei or Simon—he's a pretty strong pacificst and would have the most respect for anyone who shows strength but uses it for something civil.
Also, Varisian/Mage's tattoo sounds cool but really isn't very good.
Simon's-
Zathyl: Best friend, like a brother, favorite person to tent and talk with.
Sergei:Good friend. Just about Simon's age as well, so easy to get along with. They might go to a tavern every once in a while.
Jack:Acquaintance. Trying to get to know him better. Also his age. Not quite as close, but Simon is still rather possesive of all of his friends if they're threatened or victims of prejudice. So they're not necessarily best buds, but Simon would still hypnotise a town guard for giving him a hard time.
Scout: Somewhat distant. Tries to be friendly, but Mr.Grumpy-Golem doesn't know how to have fun. :P
Veilwar: Simon tries to talk to him, but he's rather elusive. Conversation happens, but it's few and far between.
Enchantment doesn't have terribly good feats, so I'll take whatever I can to get the DC's higher. As it is, craft wonderous may or may not be terribly viable at lvl 3. If it doesn't seem like it is, I'll take spell focus Enchantment.
Enchantment as a school is pretty tough to use, partly because it can end combat before it starts so it often relies on "save or die' as it were. Then there's the limited targets with the subtype conditions. Past even that the spells become irrelevant as conflict party saves increase and the low level spells don't have the same oomph. You can always use a magic missile, but command loses much use after a certain point.
The tattoo feat was more of a development idea than a feat being well spent. He gets black out hammered with some guy or gal and wanders back into camp the next day with a hangover and a tattoo he doesn't remember getting. XD
Sergei is already responding to your questions, kitty!
Fixed!
:)
Heighten spell is actually a pretty go-to metamagic for spells that rely on saving throws. There isn't always a scaled-up-for-the-dc effect, after all. Evokers and Conjurers have very little use for it, but nearly every other spell-user can get a lot of mileage out of it. My enchanter is actually sorcerer/arcanist and took tattooed sorcerer, which gave the Varisian tattoo for free. I then bought back eschew materials (because of the setting), and then proceeded to take spell focus. I wouldn't even think of taking heightened spell until level 7ish with my build, though, as I won't be getting level three spells until eighth, I don't think. But heighten spell allows you to raise Charm Monster (as an example) up to a 5/6/7th level slot. As such, it gives you higher DC 'friend' spells. Kind of neat. (She's actually playing compulsion, as opposed to charm, though, so it's not -as- good. There's nearly always a compulsion spell 'for that'.)
That's cool.
I can take that when I have rather higher spells to adjust them to. :)
I feel like Mage's Tattoo is really for Humans and anyone else with a bonus feat to take at first level to take as opposed to anyone else at lvl 3.
I mostly like it because it would go with this idea I have for a tattoo that would be all of the zodiac symbols about dime sized each going around the wrist.
I may have him get some of the wondrous item tattoos, like Hypnotic or the one that gives stilled or silent. More likely hypnotic, as he has Spellsong for the other. This might be for that idea instead of the feat. We'll see.
Well... if you want something to follow Spell Focus with... Greater Spell Focus is another +1 to the DC, while Mage's Tattoo only increases the duration of most things by a small %.
Sorry I didn't post yesterday... I've just been out of it... And its been raining.... on top of ice....
So here is a short list of suggestions for feats: eschew materials, expanded arcana and harmonic spell.... Well that's all I got for feat suggestions... I've only played a bard once and shortly...
Also, as you level up (and might diverge into other perform skills) you might want to look at bardic masterpieces.
I have been looking at masterpieces. I'd take them as spells opposed to feats.
There's one that's dance based and is used to offer a service of yours in exchange for a service of someone else's. It seems fine to me, but the flavor text says it calls desires from the depths of Hell, so I'm really not sure if I can take it in good conscience as a good character...
Pagent of the Peacock is a must for crafting.
I like the fire Lullaby one.
Do bards cast spells with material components? I was under the impression that they didn't, which is why Spellsong works.
Not all spells have components, but bards do not naturally get Eschew Materials. Many spells do not need components, and some components could easily be utilized during a performance. Let's say you need to use bone dust for whatever reason. You can mix it with sand, and let the sand pour from your fingertips during the performance. Done! :)
Some bard spells have material/focused components. For example, Hideous laughter has the material component "tiny fruit tarts and a feather" and Summon Monster I has the focus "a tiny bag and a small candle." That's why in the Bard's kit (and most spellcaster kits for that matter) have a material component pouch listed... Even druids.... a druids main divine focus component is mistletoe and holly....
You might have been confused about the line in the bard's abilities that states that all bard spells have a verbal component. It still means that all other components that are listed on the spell are used, its just that all bard spells listed have a verbal one at least....
..... I just read through this and I feel like a know-it-all giving a lecture.... :( I hate it when I get like this... I'm sorry if I come off it like that it wasn't my intention.
Sergei is not being upset. Sergei sees knowledge of the game as something that is being made to be shared! How else are we to learn? On our own? PAH!
Also, examples of bard spells you could totally do that with and it make sense (that do not have material components): Aspect of the Nightingale, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Step. There are many more, but I really like those three, in particular.
I generally think of Spell Component Pouch as just a sort of Divine Focus for arcane casters—as long as you can retrieve it without too much trouble, it doesn't really matter what you pull out of there.
Meanwhile, the Dance of Creeping Ivy is cool because other party members can learn it as well—but honestly I'd just take whatever you think looks fun.
I have been staying silent largely because I don't normally run bards and don't have all the splat books. But if you were to ask me about rogues, I could go on forever. And just possibly horrify some people as my idea of what an "optimized" rogue looks like differs quite a bit from what people on the character optimization forums might think an "optimized" rogue looks like. But given that I've been playing DnD off and on since the mid 1970's I am somewhat set in my ways. :-)
That's a good thing.
Could you suggest any rogue talents that fit him? He has several to take at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.
2 was finesse rogue so he can hold a Rapier without his hand snapping off.
The potential problem is that what I consider to be "must have" talents for the way that I normally run a rogue might not fit your character concept. The two talents that I take first are Trap Spotter and Fast Stealth. Which might not work for your character.
I would suggest that you look at the Minor Magic and Major Magic rogue talents which would give you a wizard cantrip you could use three times a day and a first level spell you could use twice a day as spell-like abilities. When I select those talents for a rogue I will usually choose either Mage Hand or Message for the cantrip and usually either Shield or Feather Fall for the first level spell. Obviously you might want to pick more performance related options.
I'll need to go back through my book and notes to come up with more ideas. Most of the stuff I usually do is either buffing standard rogue abilities, improving combat performance or helping with defense. Most of which might not help a performance oriented character. Also, just between you and me, when I "optimize" a character the minimum stat I will take for any ability other than Charisma is a 10, and I won't let Charisma go below 8 if at all possible. Other people's mileage obviously varies and most people wouldn't take my musings as gospel in any event. But it is my curmudgeonly belief that you can run into more problems caused by the low stats in the long run than one super high stat may be worth.
@Simon: Trap Spotter only works if you're the party trapfinder anyway, and it depends on the GM—many GMs (myself included) feel the "traps only exist if the player actively declares a search" rule is boring and counterproductive, in which case everyone gets to search for traps natively, making the talent useless.
Fast Stealth is incredibly situational, but I'd say in Scout's case it's great flavor. There are few builds I know of where moving fast at stealth actually matter, and usually there's no harm to your party moving at half speed when you think you're about to sneak up on enemies—especially since the Rogue is rarely the only one who benefits from stealth, and would then be moving twice as fast as the rest of the party.
Finesse Rogue is only useful if you decide you want to do melee combat. If so, you'll need other feats and talents to be good at it (e.g. piranha strike, Weapon/Combat Trick, etc); if not, there's nothing wrong with retraining it to use a bow, since a bard never needs to stand on the front line.
Minor/Major Magic are much less useful for a bard who can already cast Message/Mage Hand, but they're still prereqs to get a familiar at level 10, if you want one. Otherwise, Improved Evasion is absolutely your level 10 talent, as it gives you regular evasion as well.
What else? The Bomber talent is useful, but only with high Int. Canny Observer gives you a +4 to Perception to find traps. Charmer, Honeyed Words or False Friend fit the best with Simon's background. You can also use Ninja Trick to get Wall Climber, which is cool for a circus.
@Scout: Your character doesn't seem optimized at all, by my definition—I'd say what you did was build a character based on the skills and strengths you think fit him, rather than trying to be the best at a specific small suite.
There you go, I tend to "optimize" for a "general purpose" role. Which to some extent is a contradiction in terms. :-) But I don't like being so welded into a specific niche that I'm all but useless outside it.
Regardless of any other considerations though, this is a game. You spend time playing it in order to have fun. Whether or not somebody agrees with me the only way they can play the game "wrong" is to not have fun. So, if Simon's player is enjoying running the character and the rest of the party isn't having to constantly jump through hoops to keep him alive, then he's doing it right. Given that how much work our characters may have to do to keep one another alive has yet to be determined then it is too early to critique builds based on that. Too much depends on how the campaign develops. But based on all the initial information we got Simon can probably do fine as the party face and in various performance roles without having to worry too much about other considerations.
I mean, sure. I certainly have no problem with people optimizing their characters for maximum fun. I'm just also someone who's very good with juggling numbers and builds, and will often give advice on things that the people around me might be interested in doing. Sorry if I'm too overbearing about it.
#_# .... This seems to have gotten kinda tense... I know none of you meant anything by it... but I can kinda see that some verbal fencing went on...
^_^ Can we all just get along?
Um, I don't know what else to say.... I hope I'm not out of line....
I honesty have never leveled a character more than five or six times before a campaign died. I try to have an idea of where they're going from the start. Many of my stats look similar. Casting Stat as high as it'll go, Dex nominal, and anything not as important 10-8. Simon's not-as-importants happened to be Str, Con, and Int.
I like Charmer. I really should've picked that as my first.
False Friend has uses, but seems more situational.
Honeyed words is useful, but he doesn't Bluff as much as he... Diplomacizes?
If I get Craft Wondrous, I would really like a familiar. The Valet archetype is indispensable for crafters. Though knowledge focus and Heritage gets a familiar faster.
I suppose his current progression (up to major changes) is:
3) Craft Wondrous
5) Spell Focus Enchantment
6) RT-Charmer
7) Skill focus (know something)
9) Heritage (arcane)
10) ART-Improved Evasion
11) Heighten Spell
13) ?
14) ART-?
15) ?
17) ?
18) ART-?
19) ?
#_# .... This seems to have gotten kinda tense... I know none of you meant anything by it... but I can kinda see that some verbal fencing went on...
^_^ Can we all just get along?
Um, I don't know what else to say.... I hope I'm not out of line....
I'm sorry if I came across as argumentative. Such was not my intent. I was, however, trying to point out how differences in character design philosophy drive different character concepts.
You want different just look at Veilwar....normally he would be a really weak character, but I am hoping to make him into a good illusionist (like in the 1st edition!) Working from the shadows I hope will spare him some face-to-face combat...but it might just be a bad build...who knows until you give it a whirl!!
My 'optimization' tends to favor 'what would my character do?' as opposed to 'what is best?'. As a direct result, I often wind up with less useful builds than nearly anyone else. It actually leads to a form of depression, as I don't want to force the character to change who they are, but also feel as though I am holding people back by not making the character the same strength as everyone else does.