Weapon focus (Natural Attacks) and druids

I'm just wondering about the following:

Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).

Can druids take, say, weapon focus (claw) in preparation for turning into a bear? Or does he have to wait until a wildshape form with claws becomes available?

Also, if you had access to polymorphing magic (a wand of beast shape say) that grants you access to forms with natural attacks (that you are then proficient with as per the polymorph rules), would that count as proficiency in a natural attack?

prototype00

1.) I don't see why you couldn't take Weapon Focus for your Claws. I think it'd be silly if you couldn't. It states in the description of this feat that it applies to a "new weapon" each time you take it. Your claw is certainly a weapon. I believe Natural weapons are considered Light Weapons.(ie IUS)

2.) I would have to say No to a wand of beast shape. It specifically states "They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below)." Beast Shape is not the same as Wild Shape, though Wild Shape mimics Beast Shape although still inherently stays unique to itself.

Anyone else?

Actually I meant something like a 3rd lvl Druid (not able to wildshape yet) taking Weapon Focus (Claws) in preparation for becoming a Raptor at lvl 4.

prototype00

RAW, he has the prerequisite proficiency at 1st level and should be allowed to take the feat(at 3rd level).

Other classes with evolving proficiencies(magus, armor) have the level described at which they gain proficiency. The druid has it from first level.

I'm not sure if your answer is in response to #1 or #2... but...

It doesn't matter, it specifically states "Wild Shape". That's why I bolded it. Wild Shape and Beast Shape are not the same thing. Wild Shape is a variation of Beast Shape essentially, but unique to the druid. It's clear.

You meet the prerequisites for Weapon Focus even though you aren't in Wild Shape. I see no reason not to be allowed/able to acquire it. It says you just have to choose a weapon from the raw wording of it. It doesn't make a restriction to what weapon, whether it's future, past, or present. Leaving that option open implies it is an available choice. If you take it now, you can't do anything with it until it actually becomes applicable - So you'd be wasting a couple levels waiting I would imagine. However, I'm not sure if it would apply the +1 to Claw for instance(if you had a claw before you acheived Wild Shape from a racial or other class feature) before Wild Shape as you are only proficient with natural attacks while in Wild Shape. That seems fairly clear too. Don't overthink it.

Anyone? Back me up or correct me?

Right fair enough. In certain cases having the feat just sitting there and not doing anything is preferable to having to take it later and it interfering with more optimal choices, which was why I asked.

So it seems a druid can pick a natural weapon for weapon focus before he can wildshape (it just does nothing until wildshaped), groovy.

prototype00

So it seems a druid can pick a natural weapon for weapon focus before he can wildshape (it just does nothing until wildshaped), groovy.

Absolutely =).

Right fair enough. In certain cases having the feat just sitting there and not doing anything is preferable to having to take it later and it interfering with more optimal choices, which was why I asked.

So it seems a druid can pick a natural weapon for weapon focus before he can wildshape (it just does nothing until wildshaped), groovy.

prototype00

Ya Booiiiiiiii!! ^_^

Wow, it is interesting that proficiency is even mentioned for the druid. I thought it was presumed for all classes that receive claws are proficient with the claws they receive.

The mere mention of it makes me question whether a barbarian with beast totem or a sorcerer with bloodline claws are proficient with the claws. I think I know intuitively that the answer is that they are. I am just at a lost why only the druid mentions proficiency with claws.

The natural weapon proficiency mentioned in the druid class is redundant; the polymorph subschool description in the Magic chapter says:

"In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."

So if you polymorph, beast shape, or wild shape into a tiger, you are proficient with your tiger bite and tiger claws.

I think the actual question is not does the druid qualify for the feat, but when.

According to the feat, he needs proficiency and +1 BAB.

The question remains, does he have the proficiency at level 1, truly, or does he gain it once he gains wildshape?

The specific wording of the paragraph suggests they don't get it until they have the wild shape class ability. Once they gain wild shape, they are, from that moment forward, proficient with any natural weapons their form assumes.

Druids begin their career with proficiency in natural weapons, but not the +1 BAB.

Druids begin their career with proficiency in natural weapons, but not the +1 BAB.

I disagree with this blanket statement. It's not what the RAW says.

If it were true, why doesn't the wording simply say "proficiency with all natural weapons"?

Instead, it says "They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below)."

So, once they get the Wild Shape ability, they are from that moment on, proficient with any natural weapons they use for that form.

Can you cite any other precedents of classes receiving proficiencies with things they won't get until later levels? Perhaps that would change my mind, but as I read the RAW, it's not proficient at level 1. It's proficient upon gaining Wild Shape.

Perhaps SKR can chime in on this one. I can see it being read both ways.

It's a class feature of the Druid, listed under Armor and Weapon Proficiencies:

They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).

It's listed in the same section as light/medium armor, clubs, darts, etc. That's reserved for abilities the class begins with.

Can they assume a form with Wild Shape at level 1?

I read this as "as soon as they get the ability, they gain this proficiency". As you said, it's a class feature. And it's specifically listed as triggering upon Wild Shape form being utilized. Which doesn't happen until later levels.

I still think it's listed that way because some archetypes give you Wild Shape before or after normal, so they have to keep it generalized.

Some druids give up Wild Shape entirely. Does that druid still gain Natural Weapon Proficiency? According to your logic, they would. That makes no sense to me.

No matter what the intent is, regardless, I don't really see it breaking the game to allow a druid to prequalify by sinking a feat a level or two early with Weapon Focus (Claw) since it has no effect until they have claws.

If they want to burn feats early, let 'em.

"Some druids give up Wild Shape entirely. Does that druid still gain Natural Weapon Proficiency? According to your logic, they would."

Indeed.

"I read this as "as soon as they get the ability, they gain this proficiency"."

You do.

"That makes no sense to me."

Makes sense to me.

"No matter what the intent is, regardless, I don't really see it breaking the game to allow a druid to prequalify by sinking a feat a level or two early with Weapon Focus (Claw) since it has no effect until they have claws."

Hooray. Now onto the next question.

No matter what the intent is, regardless, I don't really see it breaking the game to allow a druid to prequalify by sinking a feat a level or two early with Weapon Focus (Claw) since it has no effect until they have claws.

I agree.

"That makes no sense to me."

Makes sense to me.

Now onto the next question.

Just because I agree with RAI doesn't mean I agree that's what the RAW states. I still maintain that they don't gain proficiency unless they gain wild shape. I simply say it wouldn't hurt anything to allow it.

The RAW doesn't say "Druids are proficient with all natural weapons." It says "Druids are proficient with all natural weapons of whatever form they assume with Wild Shape." So, no wild shape, no proficiency.
That's why I can't fathom interpreting it otherwise.

In the end, only the OP's DM can make the call which way it reads to them. If he's the DM, it's up to him to make that call.

We can backseat quarterback it all day long, and in the end it doesn't matter.

The natural weapon proficiency mentioned in the druid class is redundant; the polymorph subschool description in the Magic chapter says:

"In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."

So if you polymorph, beast shape, or wild shape into a tiger, you are proficient with your tiger bite and tiger claws.

Not wanting to pick nits - however, I would suggest leaving it.

Why?

As it stands, a Druid can take Weapon Focus (Claw) prior to being able to Wild Shape. He won't get much use out of it, but he can take it.

If you remove that, then he doesn't technically have the proficiency until he gets Wild Shape - and since you can't take a feat until you meet the prerequisite, and you aren't considered proficient based on a class feature until you have the class feature, the Druid would have to wait until he has Wild Shape to take Weapon Focus.

And a druid cannot polymorph until he gains the Wild Shape class feature, no matter what level that's at. So those rules apply only when they gain the ability as well. What's your point?

It's like saying a Ranger can qualify for a Prestige Class that requires being able to cast divine spells because someday he might, because it's in his class feature list. It makes no sense to me.

I would have no problems if this said simply "Druids are proficient with all natural weapons". Or a blanket statement like that. But it doesn't. It specifically calls out only gaining proficiency while Wild Shaped.

RAW says no. Homebrew it if you want.

I personally think the "proficient with weapon" prerequisite of Weapon Focus isn't necessary, for any weapon. *shrug*

I would be fine with that too, Sean. ;)

Me too, actually. Burning a feat to get a Weapon "Focus" kinda suggests you're gaining proficiency with that weapon, doesn't it?