What we know:
- skill focus instead of skill monkey (goes hard into one skill)
- has the Aim action, which gives precision damage (d6s, 2d6 at level 5, progression otherwise unknown)
- one subclass is a sniper
- another subclass will presumably focus on one-handed weapons (hinted at in a blog post and the iconic runs this playstyle)
Since we probably won't learn too much about the Operative in the next three months - the next Field Test is in January and that is about ancestries - and we demonstrably know very little in the first place, we might as well make a wish ^^
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General vibe
I'd like it if the Operative shifted tone a bit from "space Rogue" and became something similar to what the Fighter is in PF2. Not in mechanics, but in terms of the general concept. A general combat class that has a lot of their playstyle choices tied to their weapon loadout, if more tricksy than the average Fighter battering ram. This specialisation should be achieved by subclasses comparable to the Rogue, rather than only proficiency and feat trees. The key attribute would remain DEX, but some subclasses should be able to pick STR as well.
It shouldn't go so far as to offer anything like a defense-focused playstyle as the Fighter does and heavy armor should be extremely restricted (if available at all). Non-agile/finesse/ranged weapons should also not be the norm. AoE weapons that are encouraged should be limited to grenades. But other than that its fair game. I would like it to be able to cover everything from the usual assassin/infiltrator/kleptomaniac/politician to something like a hard-boiled merc from a light infantry regiment.
Subclasses
Subclasses should be themed and generally created with a loadout in mind, but shouldn't be too narrow for the most part. For example, I would prefer it if a subclass that enables melee could do melee-only and mixed melee/ranged.
In particular I'd like:
- a direct daredevil/merc type focused just shooting very well
- a sniper
- a more traditional "sneaky" type that can work both at range and up close (can specialise in on or the other via feats)
- a magical subclass with a small but very versatile arsenal of abilities (the Psychic's cantrip+amp style system would be great here)
- an Eversor that wrecks house at close range, including control abilities like combat maneuvers (My brain always goes straight to 40K for this topic XD)
All subclasses should mainly modify the Aim action to suit their playstyle. For example, the sniper should be able to avoid at least lesser cover on their aimed shot and the sneaky one should have a choice of Deception actions (Feint, Create a Diversion) and Hide/Sneak as part of Aim. The Eversor could have some enemy-proximity bonuses and a built-in Stride or Trip/Shove/Reposition/Disarm.
The Aim action
This is probably the thing I'm most afraid of going wrong.
In my experience with the system, classes that are forced to frequently spend additional actions for their feature(s) to work are facing an uphill battle when it comes to both effectiveness and enjoyment. The Investigator is only the most illustrative example. The Gunslinger has probably upgraded to "second most complained about class" after the Remaster gave some love to the Warpriest. The Swashbuckler has come increasingly under fire as well. Ranger has some serious grumbling, but nothing too serious. Thaumaturge and Magus are afaik widely regarded as working well on the other hand.
I'm sure the devs know this well enough, but stuff like this can very easily make a class feel highly repetitive. So please, please, please avoid that in any way you can.
Built-in actions or action compression have worked well, but need to be versatile and have options. Otherwise they just get repetitive slightly slower and regularly leave you with a "no good options" scenario, which just makes things worse. Looking at you Swashbuckler and Gunslinger.
Another thing that helps is the repetitive action being an "enabler" for extraordinarily strong single-action abilities.
A combination is the best. The "enabler" action should not be a waste on its own and it should have a strong follow-up to make limiting your options like this satisfying and worth it. The Envoy in the stream was going in this direction and it worked well.
If we can avoid this pitfall, then I think we are in for a great time ^^
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My ysoki operative stats are
Str: 8 (-1)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con: 10 (+0)
Int: 16 (+3)
Wis: 10 (+0)
Cha: 15 (+2)
Out of 3 scenarios I've managed to do all of 6 points of damage! This has led to some very fun RP trying to explain all my misses and also gave me agoraphobia in open spaces. My main skills are bluff(with skill focus) and intimidate and profession maintenance worker which I use to bluff my way into buildings dressed as a safety inspector. No diplomacy, it's bluff or intimidate all the time which is a fun social challenge. Then use computers and engineering to get info or destroy things.
The safety inspector is a deep fake disguise, I'm in character as a safety inspector almost 24/7 I even have and use safety tape to mark off traps and hazards. At the start of an adventure, I check everyone's starship combat training records, which helps have everyone ready when ship combat happens.
I also have Piloting so can fill most roles in ship combat, but let others pick first and fill in where needed. As a safety inspector, I'm more likely to aid someone to help them get the job done right and safely, or use my skills as a backup or when we need more than one success.
Some of my inspiration for an operative safety inspector is from talking to a customer at a grocery store I work at who was a retired Navy Seal. After the navy, he was the head of the western region of the country for OSHA and arrested the CEO of a pharmaceutical factory I used to work at in a combined OSHA FDA raid. Good motivation to go stop the Boss monsters in Starfinder from doing unsafe things to the galaxy in a heroic safe way.
I can see some combat-oriented operatives but hope there is still room for a rouge-deep-faked safety inspector spy operative too. I hope there is at least one skill monkey in SF2e. Skill monkeys are how you make characters other classes don't cover. The other reason it's good to have one skill monkey class, they are great at making a small-party or single-player game work, by being able to cover more skills, helps if they have some good combat options too, like the current operative.
I'm not really worried about classes in Starfinder 2e I currently have no problem making crazy characters PF2e, Like my goblin "merchant" sorcery that has no spells that are useful in combat. Which is kind of funny because they are the only spells caster I can remember playing that was able to cast every spell and cantrip they know in one session. I'm sure I'll find ways to do strange things in SF2e too.
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I'm hoping for a class I can pilfer for PF2 firearm-users that isn't the Gunslinger :)
I'm hoping for a class I can pilfer for PF2 firearm-users that isn't the Gunslinger :)
You'll need to roll a pilfer game check vs DC 10 + the game's edition level, and if you're only pilfering from the core rule book add another +2 to the DC. If you have the "I did it my way" boon or use rule Zero you may reroll until you succeed.
I'm hoping for a class I can pilfer for PF2 firearm-users that isn't the Gunslinger :)Do you think that'll be a viable option? I'm not so sure, myself. It's firearms that are making everyone grumble, after all, not the gunslinger as such; the weapons having larger magazines will remove that problem.
Heck, it might make SF2E classes less poachable, at least for firearms, since they could be less likely to have reload feats. If reloading isn't something you're expecting to do in a combat then it probably doesn't need action compressing feats tied to it.
Yeah, I don't see SF2 classes with PF2 reload weapons working out very well. But you could just reflavour many SF2 guns as some weird mechanical/magical offshoots of traditional firearms. Spark guns but actually good before level 16 ^^. Depending on how the balance works out, I can see that being pretty popular.
I would also like to add that people very much grumble about the Gunslinger itself as well ^^
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Like OP, I'm hoping that there's a viable Str-build for Operatives. The Heavyweight Skirmisher was a breath of fresh air for me, and I hope we continue to get some kind of build along those lines.
I know all indications seem to be that (Solarian notwithstanding) melee builds will be either very niche, or not supported at all, but - I'm still holding out hope that it remains a foundational part of the game. It doesn't need to be King of DPR, but a melee presence that prevents melee enemies from eating your squishies feels like a central conceit for tactical grid-based combat. Yes, arguably melee is the optimal choice in SF1 for Big Numbers™, but I don't want the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction with too drastic a melee nerf - or else we get the (1e) Witchwarper all over again.
I'm guessing that "party face" style Operatives won't be a thing anymore in 2e, with that skillset going to Envoys, or perhaps Mystics. Which, to be honest, I'm fine with. If the 2e Operative really is just "Killing You Guy" then a high-Cha, skillsy Face build does seem a bit at odds with that.
- another subclass will presumably focus on one-handed weapons (hinted at in a blog post and the iconic runs this playstyle)
Wait, do we know this? I must have missed it - can you link info on the new Iconic Operative? Is it still Iseph?
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I can see some combat-oriented operatives but hope there is still room for a rouge-deep-faked safety inspector spy operative too. I hope there is at least one skill monkey in SF2e. Skill monkeys are how you make characters other classes don't cover. The other reason it's good to have one skill monkey class, they are great at making a small-party or single-player game work, by being able to cover more skills, helps if they have some good combat options too, like the current operative.
The Envoy was confirmed as SF2's skill monkey, so that should be the first stop. But even on someone who isn't a skill monkey, you should be able to run that concept fairly well. A decent CHA/INT investment, skill increases in Intimidate/Deception, a few disguise skill feats to make it work better and whatever skill computers/hacking end up being. Maybe an Additional Lore or two, possibly from an archetype. That's manageable.
I'm guessing that "party face" style Operatives won't be a thing anymore in 2e, with that skillset going to Envoys, or perhaps Mystics. Which, to be honest, I'm fine with. If the 2e Operative really is just "Killing You Guy" then a high-Cha, skillsy Face build does seem a bit at odds with that.
I mean, "party face" doesn't necessarily involve a wide skillset. From what I know, it only refers to being good at CHA skills, usually Diplomacy. And I'm certain that at going heavy into CHA will still be an option. And if Free Archetype is still an option, you can even easily go the skill monkey route as well ^^
- another subclass will presumably focus on one-handed weapons (hinted at in a blog post and the iconic runs this playstyle)Wait, do we know this? I must have missed it - can you link info on the new Iconic Operative? Is it still Iseph?
The first field report blog post had the following in the initial Operative introduction:
"The operative focuses on using guns and taking an aim action to get extra precision damage. Jessica’s operative for this playtest was built to be a sniper (as opposed to our iconic, who is more focused on using pistols at close range)."
That's all the info I have, sorry ^^
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I can see some combat-oriented operatives but hope there is still room for a rouge-deep-faked safety inspector spy operative too. I hope there is at least one skill monkey in SF2e. Skill monkeys are how you make characters other classes don't cover. The other reason it's good to have one skill monkey class, they are great at making a small-party or single-player game work, by being able to cover more skills, helps if they have some good combat options too, like the current operative.The Envoy was confirmed as SF2's skill monkey, so that should be the first stop. But even on someone who isn't a skill monkey, you should be able to run that concept fairly well. A decent CHA/INT investment, skill increases in Intimidate/Deception, a few disguise skill feats to make it work better and whatever skill computers/hacking end up being. Maybe an Additional Lore or two, possibly from an archetype. That's manageable.
Originally I had made operative as a mechanic but moved to operative to add the safety inspector disguise. I hadn't thought of Enovy for the disguise part, Get 'Em is so overused I didn't think to look at the improvisions for a safety inspector, turns out Envoys have multiple improvisions that are perfect for safety inspectors. I'm all on board for Envoys as skill monkeys now.
I'm hoping for a class I can pilfer for PF2 firearm-users that isn't the Gunslinger :)Do you think that'll be a viable option? I'm not so sure, myself. It's firearms that are making everyone grumble, after all, not the gunslinger as such; the weapons having larger magazines will remove that problem.
Heck, it might make SF2E classes less poachable, at least for firearms, since they could be less likely to have reload feats. If reloading isn't something you're expecting to do in a combat then it probably doesn't need action compressing feats tied to it.
I bet an Operative with a Harmona Gun would work just fine for my purposes.
Also, since this is a wishlist thread, one thing I'm kind of hoping for is that operatives have two subclasses. The first being focused around the skill they use in all of their operations in inventive ways, and the second being the kind of fighting style they employ when those operations invariably go sideways and firefights break out.
I would love that ^^. While they will probably go for something more straightforward like the Rogue approach in the core, I hope that the lego approach to class building of the newer classes in PF2 will continue. Where it makes sense ofc, the Soldier doesn't need that. And this one is hardly that complex, so maybe we have a chance :D
Put in a bunch of feats that let you specialise in either direction (or mix and match) on top of that and we are cooking with fire!
I bet an Operative with a Harmona Gun would work just fine for my purposes.I'm hoping for a class I can pilfer for PF2 firearm-users that isn't the Gunslinger :)Do you think that'll be a viable option? I'm not so sure, myself. It's firearms that are making everyone grumble, after all, not the gunslinger as such; the weapons having larger magazines will remove that problem.
Heck, it might make SF2E classes less poachable, at least for firearms, since they could be less likely to have reload feats. If reloading isn't something you're expecting to do in a combat then it probably doesn't need action compressing feats tied to it.
It would certainly mean that the character is largely incapable of using activities with the gun. Given how many abilities end up as activities, I'd expect that to sharply reduce their available options.
I suppose you could use the gun as a one-off at the start and continue with a different weapon. But I'm not sure that that is what you have in mind?
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Another way to look at the operative is what is your example from a movie or book of a sci-fi operative, and how would that fit into Starfinder?
Mon Mon Mothma, and Bail Organa, are very much operatives in the political sense, so more of an SF envoy than an operative.
Andor, Luthen Rael, and Vel Sartha, are how I picture more combat-oriented operatives in SF
From the Bad batch, Hunter, Tech, Echo, and Crosshair, could all be operatives with different specializations. Wrecker might be more of a soldier or other strength or con-based class.
For nonfiction snipers, there's Lyudmila Pavlichenko "Laidy of Death" the world's top women sniper and friend of Eleanor Roosevelt. More recently there's Emerald, also known as Ukariains Joan of Arc, a jewelry store owner, and social media influencer, turned sniper/mom, differently a skill monkey type operative.
For mechanic-type operatives Harry Tuttle, Heating Engineer from the movie Brazil is hard to beat, differently an influence on my safety inspectior operative. Tuttle
Another way to look at the operative is what is your example from a movie or book of a sci-fi operative, and how would that fit into Starfinder?
Yeah, that makes sense ^^. The devs certainly do that, as people tend to take inspiration from other pieces of media.
This gets a bit more complicated as from what I gather the Envoy and Operative have some conceptual overlap. The vibe I get is that the Envoy covers the more public and leadership-oriented aspects, while the Operative is more about getting his own hands dirty or at least acting in a less overt manner. The "lone wolf" angle is pretty popular for the latter, but is not strictly necessary.
But boy, I haven't consumed all that much scifi in the last like 10 years. It's been rather heavy on fantasy. Many of the few characters I remember would mean nothing to pretty much anyone either XD. But I'll try.
For well-rounded Operatives, I'm thinking about a lot of the main cast of Rogue One. Each one is somewhat specialised in a skill or two, but (nearly) all can handle it when things go sideways. Except Donnie Yen (I can never remember that character's name) and his friend, they are pretty obviously a Monk and a Soldier ^^. Jyn has an Envoy moment later on, but I think she still counts.
I'm not sure what category cyberpunk protagonists/enemies would fall into, but they usually see more combat. Adam Jensen from the Deus Ex series is a prime candidate for an Operative. V from 2077 could be. The Fixers from 2077 come to mind as well.
If the Operative does indeed absorb some of the more regular soldier angle, I could somewhat see the protagonists of Edge of Tomorrow. But most prominently I would see the Stargate teams here, except usually the team leader (O'Neill in particular).
My most vivid connection would ofc be 40K's Officio Assassinorum "employees". Besides the callidus assassins, who spec heavily into skills, they are like a poster child for what the new Operative tries to do. One strong skill and beyond that they are really good at killing. The most extreme example being the vindicare, who has maxed out Stealth and on-hit damage XD. The stories around individual assassins are some of the most crazy stuff I've ever seen. If I get something like that, I'm more than happy! Maybe without the built-in bionuke for my favourites, though ^^
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A lot of the examples I gave were more the rebellion/wartime operatives from Star Wars. Cyberpunk is a great example of street and corporate operatives. I had to look up Murderbot Diaries, android, and SRO-type operatives that's a whole over flavor, Chopper and R2-D2 might fit that a bit too. That's the tricky part about operatives they cover such a wide range of skills and flavors, which makes them hard to pin done to one concept.
I imagine we'll see some chopping down and narrowing of the operative concept in this edition for that reason. SF operative kinda eats everyone else's lunch, at least when it comes to skills.
That's pretty much guaranteed to be the main reason for the skill monkey -> skill specialist change, yeah.
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How are they thinking of making the operative more of a specialist them skill monkey? Both the current envoy and operative have the same number of skills and ways to specialize in skills. The big advantage operatives have as a skill monkey is Operative’s edge. If operatives lost Operative’s edge or Operative’s edge just appalled to initiative checks. Then make a new general feat that gives +1 to 3 or 4 different skills. That would allow classes that have only 4 skills to at least be good at these skills. It doesn't seem out of place for a soldier to be good at the few skills they can take. Some people have said that the operative is not too good its other classes were not as good. having a general skill boost feet that bost 4 skills would give every class an option to be able to be played with a more skill-oriented build.
How are they thinking of making the operative more of a specialist them skill monkey? Both the current envoy and operative have the same number of skills and ways to specialize in skills.
As far as we know, Operatives and Envoys will no longer receive the same number of skills (or skill increases).
The Operative will instead be really strong with a single skill. So presumably they will be a standard 10 skill increase class, hopefully with your main skill scaling automatically as well.
The Envoy will be the one to receive all of the skills, so they will certainly be a 20 skill increase class.
As for additional skill increases, they are usually done via archetypes so far, but I'd definitely agree that it would be great for a general feat to cover this as well. You get them at the exact right levels to progress, even.
Something I'm really hoping for, but am not sure we'll see, is the birth of the class-feat-as-skill-feat paradigm with the operative. Your chosen superskill gives you access to some real potent skill feats that push the bounds of what skill feats normally do. That might push the power curve a bit too much though, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but class feats that heavily involve a skill and have a strong in-combat and/or out-of-combat application are totally what I'm expecting to see as options. It's not even all that new, the Gunslinger, Rogue and Swashbuckler all have feats that heavily modify the Feint action far beyond any skill feat for example.
Or do you mean that the class feat provides access to stronger skill feats and you still take those as skill feats? Because that one I don't see happening.
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A quintessential example of an archetypal sci-fi operative is Murderbot, of M. Wells' Murderbot Diaries.
You know, I was about to argue that point but considering how much time Murderbot spends disguised and lurking before enacting incredible violence, it actually tracks.
I would be more worried that if the class skill feats are too powerful, there would be no reason to take the normal skill featsThat was my concern too. The other side is that they become so niche and specific to the operative in some narrow circumstance that they don't ever get picked.
I mean, very few skills actually have more than a couple (if any) skill feats that you really want to take in the first place. Most skill feats don't really do much, they are more in the vein of mechanically supporting RP or covering niche situations. Unless SF2 changes this drastically, I don't think we have to worry about this.
If you make skill feats as actual class feats and not like archetype skill feats, then they will inevitably have to be far more broad and stronger than skill feats. Otherwise nobody will take them or you will get buyer's remorse when they sound coll, but are actually bad. You don't want to create a bunch of the next Warning Shot.
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Exciting news from the front (the PU SF2 demo)!
According to a kind soul who played the Operative during the demo, we have some new data:
- the pregen Operative was expert in ranged weapon attack rolls at level 3, so it looks like there is a class with legendary weapon progression in the game already!
- Aim is a single action that grants a bit of precision damage (1d4 at level 3) to all your non-aoe ranged weapon attacks that round and reduces their circumstance bonus from cover by 1 (meaning you automatically ignore the bane of every ranged character ever - people standing between you and your target)
- Peek is an ability (likely a 1st level feat from what I can tell) that lets you Strike + Take Cover for 1 action
- Running Reload is still around, just in disguise
- they used a sniper rifle that dealt 1d10 damage (backstabber, fatal d12, unwieldy), with 160ft range increments and 4 shots per mag
The precision damage only being d4s makes a lot of sense when you get them on all attacks, are on the legendary track and reduce cover to boot. Lots of potential there, though maybe not something every type of Operative wants to do every turn. A Sniper certainly gets a lot more out of reducing cover than the scrappy two-gun iconic would.
Overall, this class sounds like it could be a fun combination of Gunslinger and Rogue with some SF2-original ingredients thrown into the mix. For a character using non-unwieldy weapons, we could even get some fun and spicy press actions in there... *salivates*. Look out, it seems the Fighter is finally getting some competition in the "it just works" category :D
Damn that's a nice suite of abilities!
My immediate gut reaction is to worry about a class with fighter proficiency and extra damage on top, but I'm going to reserve any worrying or grumbling until I hear more because that still sounds very cool.
Yeah, so far it isn't much to worry over. D4s - probably without great scaling - aren't setting any records when applied to ranged damage. Much less on a subclass that can only use its main weapon once per round.
Why would you have multiple pistols instead of one.
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Loving the fact that SF2 gets a legendary-track class. I really wasn't expecting it out fo the Operative, but it makes a lot of sense in retrospect... as does the combo of Aim with unwieldy weapons.
It feels like Operative is maybe hitting the same kind of conceptual sweet spot that Soldier did (though at a different spot). So that's cool.
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Why would you have multiple pistols instead of one.
It's a rather common thing in fiction and the iconic runs that playstyle.
It also just looks super heckin' cool.Why would you have multiple pistols instead of one.It's a rather common thing in fiction and the iconic runs that playstyle.
I've unfortunately been forever cured of my love for dual wielding due to HEMA and that applies to guns as well :/
I would love it if a single handgun playstyle got as much love as the free hand Fighter, though.
* Dual wielding the same weapons (two pistols or two melee weapons) anyway. I still like using both a pistol and some kind of melee weapon ^^
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I've unfortunately been forever cured of my love for dual wielding due to HEMA and that applies to guns as well :/
I've fenced and fought in armor for over 30 years, not sure why HEMA would cure you of that, although I do find crosstraining in Phlipino martial arts helpful for dual-weapon fighting. Fighting multiple opponents helps too, I know HEMA doses some of that but not sure to what extent. Also, I find it helps a lot for dual-weapon fighting to train frequently with a single weapon using my off-arm.
Game wise using multiple weapons tends to be thought of as more attacks, but in real fighting, I tend to think of it in terms of more defense and more angles of attacks or angles threatened. For guns, it's having more ammo without reloading, and angles covered. Unless you have a gadget to help reload a gun not sure how you could reload without a free hand. What if a skittermander with a gun in each hand didn't have to use free hands to reload?
I've unfortunately been forever cured of my love for dual wielding due to HEMA and that applies to guns as well :/I've fenced and fought in armor for over 30 years, not sure why HEMA would cure you of that, although I do find crosstraining in Phlipino martial arts helpful for dual-weapon fighting. Fighting multiple opponents helps too, I know HEMA doses some of that but not sure to what extent. Also, I find it helps a lot for dual-weapon fighting to train frequently with a single weapon using my off-arm.
Game wise using multiple weapons tends to be thought of as more attacks, but in real fighting, I tend to think of it in terms of more defense and more angles of attacks or angles threatened. For guns, it's having more ammo without reloading, and angles covered. Unless you have a gadget to help reload a gun not sure how you could reload without a free hand. What if a skittermander with a gun in each hand didn't have to use free hands to reload?
Most dual-wielding in fiction uses two weapons of the same length, which I find clumsy and is generally not very useful. Any defensive advantage you gain is counteracted by your weapons constantly getting in each others way. Getting halfway good with that kind of setup - mostly so that the previous thing doesn't happen - requires a level of training that is frankly excessive. My group placed a very strong emphasis on practicality and that has rubbed off a lot. Two daggers especially is the height of pointlessness and is everywhere in fiction. The only thing that works and is commonly shown is rapier + dagger, which I really haven't done. Single rapier was annoying enough XD.
Other than that, I've done some German and mostly Italian (Fiore) fencing, which has a strong emphasis on grappling, so my other hand is occupied with other stuff regardless^^.
Back to the Operative, my kneejerk reaction is that I prefer the legendary version over the previous, more Rogue-y one. I think there is more flexibility and "uniqueness" in this one.
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Exciting news from the front (the PU SF2 demo)!
According to a kind soul who played the Operative during the demo, we have some new data:
- the pregen Operative was expert in ranged weapon attack rolls at level 3, so it looks like there is a class with legendary weapon progression in the game already!
- Aim is a single action that grants a bit of precision damage (1d4 at level 3) to all your non-aoe ranged weapon attacks that round and reduces their circumstance bonus from cover by 1 (meaning you automatically ignore the bane of every ranged character ever - people standing between you and your target)
- Peek is an ability (likely a 1st level feat from what I can tell) that lets you Strike + Take Cover for 1 action
- Running Reload is still around, just in disguise
- they used a sniper rifle that dealt 1d10 damage (backstabber, fatal d12, unwieldy), with 160ft range increments and 4 shots per magThe precision damage only being d4s makes a lot of sense when you get them on all attacks, are on the legendary track and reduce cover to boot. Lots of potential there, though maybe not something every type of Operative wants to do every turn. A Sniper certainly gets a lot more out of reducing cover than the scrappy two-gun iconic would.
Overall, this class sounds like it could be a fun combination of Gunslinger and Rogue with some SF2-original ingredients thrown into the mix. For a character using non-unwieldy weapons, we could even get some fun and spicy press actions in there... *salivates*. Look out, it seems the Fighter is finally getting some competition in the "it just works" category :D
Just wanted to chime in on something: I was running PF2 at PAXU, and some people from the design team gave the GMs running it a primer before the show. As we were going through it, we found errors and missing info during that, and Iseph (the Operative) had, for their rifle, nothing written in as a DEX bonus, a +7 from Proficiency, and a +1 item bonus for a total bonus of 8.
I don't remember the exact words said, but I remember the missing DEX bonus being pointed out, and also that Trained at Level 3 would have a Proficiency bonus of +5. I don't specifically remember anyone saying that no classes were supposed to have Expert weapon proficiency, but it WAS stated that the goal was for the classes used to be simple to read and use. No reference material was there at the time, so I recall changing the +8 on the sheets to be +10 (+4 DEX, +5 Proficiency assuming Trained, +1 item)
The Operative, at least the Sniper variant, having Expert proficiency in Sniper Rifles would make sense given their basic routine at level 3 (Aim, Stride, Peek/Strike) and the fact that they use a Fatal weapon, but we get more definitive info, I don't want people to assume it's supposed to be Expert in weapons and then it turns out its not.
It *might* be, but it's not a guarantee.
Also, the rifle was supposed to have a 150ft range, with the Scope attached to it allowing for a +20ft increase if using it during Aim.
Back to the Operative, my kneejerk reaction is that I prefer the legendary version over the previous, more Rogue-y one. I think there is more flexibility and "uniqueness" in this one.I'm a bit skeptical because of how much of a premium legendary proficiency in attacks seems to eat up. Then again, gunslinger has some cool progressions in their Way abilities so maybe I'm worrying over nothing.
The Fighter also gets a ton of stuff on top of having legendary attack rolls. Reactive Strike, Shield Block (if you care about that), a great anti-fear will save upgrade, discount incredible initiative, two additional feats you can prepare and the best non-legendary armor proficiency in the game. That's just before you get into the amazing feats :D
"But the Fighter gets legendary so he doesn't get that much else" is a favorite running gag in my group XD
Just wanted to chime in on something: I was running PF2 at PAXU, and some people from the design team gave the GMs running it a primer before the show. As we were going through it, we found errors and missing info during that, and Iseph (the Operative) had, for their rifle, nothing written in as a DEX bonus, a +7 from Proficiency, and a +1 item bonus for a total bonus of 8.
I don't remember the exact words said, but I remember the missing DEX bonus being pointed out, and also that Trained at Level 3 would have a Proficiency bonus of +5. I don't specifically remember anyone saying that no classes were supposed to have Expert weapon proficiency, but it WAS stated that the goal was for the classes used to be simple to read and use. No reference material was there at the time, so I recall changing the +8 on the sheets to be +10 (+4 DEX, +5 Proficiency assuming Trained, +1 item)
The Operative, at least the Sniper variant, having Expert proficiency in Sniper Rifles would make sense given their basic routine at level 3 (Aim, Stride, Peek/Strike) and the fact that they use a Fatal weapon, but we get more definitive info, I don't want people to assume it's supposed to be Expert in weapons and then it turns out its not.
It *might* be, but it's not a guarantee.
Also, the rifle was supposed to have a 150ft range, with the Scope attached to it allowing for a +20ft increase if using it during Aim.
Welp, I hate that XD. Because if that kind of loadout doesn't have the Fighter progression, I don't see much point in playing it. That's the whole "all eggs in a too small basket" problem again, just with an even smaller basket than the Gunslinger has.
It might be fine on a loadout that makes more attacks. 1d4 additional damage plus downgrading cover is sort of like Sneak Attack and this can always be done at range. On the other hand, the Rogue is at good as it is because of being able to exploit off guard to the fullest extend and being able to get its bonus damage for free quite easily.
Welp, it seems pretty much confirmed that the Fighter proficiency was a mistake and the Operative has the normal martial weapon progression. There goes my excitement again :(
So yeah, that Sniper better have some real moves in there, because that isn't "my specialty is killing you" damage that's Investigator damage aka "my specialty is tickling you" damage. Literally the only martial class that makes the "only one attack per turn" playstyle work is the Magus and this is far, far from that. Soldier looks like a good candidate as well. Imagine getting outdamaged by the tank XD
Actually, after thinking about it for a bit, I absolutely take the bit about dual-wielding guns back. There is one character inspiration I would pick without hesitation :D
[For those who don't want to click the youtube link, it's the grammaton clerics from Equilibrium]