Masters of Golarion II

Game Master fnord72

Any dedicated archer of this level would have an immense total attack bonus, and even normal AC really stops scaling well at the higher levels.

SO, the dedicated archer would have to be heavily optimized?

Does that break the intent of our game? heavily and narrowly optimized characters?

Does a gunslinger need to be optimized just as heavily?

To be honest, I've not GM'd guns. I have played next to a couple of them where the GM did a poor job of controlling what they did. And every experience I have had has not been good.

I'm willing to let them in, I'd like to make sure that I'm not the only one looking at the build to make sure they are not overpowered.

An archer can be devastating with just common sense choices (e.g. the archery feats, a good archetype, good gear, etc.). A gunslinger needs a lot of the same thing by default if they want to be a good gunslinger. Neither one is going to be effective if they don't take Point Blank Shot and its family tree.

The idea is that with Very Rare Guns, there aren't advanced firearms out there. Primitive firearms only hit on touch within the first range increment. To me, that's what equalizes firearms with bow-and-arrow combat, firearms trade long range with better chance to hit.

In my opinion, gunslingers fall into the sort of rut most ranged martials do. It's not hard to optimize them, but it doesn't allow for terribly much wiggle room until at least tenth level. However, the archetype in question is the Bolt Ace. The archetype removes the gunslinger's ability to mitigate and prevent misfires, while instead increasing crossbow viability. A Dex-based character would be scary with this build, true, but firearms don't play into it. In fact, I'd go as far to say that a Bolt Ace using even primitive firearms would be less effective than a gunslinger using crossbows.

Work update: I will be traveling this evening for my employer. I will try to post tomorrow evening as I am able.

Seems more are inclined to allow guns then not.

Anyone have a problem with leaving them restricted to very rare?

Anyone have a problem with restricting technological gear?

And while we are at it, there's another play test out, so I'd like to formalize and add in no play test material, or newly released material until reviewed by those in the game.

As I said in the recruit thread, we have five interested people now. I'm not sure that all of them will fit in or be able to provide complementary characters to the group, even if they do, it will give enough of a base of characters to possible have a co-GM to assist the current GM.

Which would be interesting. The co-GM becomes the next GM after the current session.

I'll not likely be responding until Thursday.

Cheers!

Rare guns is fine by me. As for a playtest, I haven't heard anything about that, what's getting tested?

Tech gear is weird. I don't know how to really place it. From what I've seen, the most OP weapon is basically a wand of Boneshatter at near double the price and running on batteries. Armor looks interesting, but also odd. Other gear seems like odd stuff, such as cyber implants that don't take up magic item slots and stat tomes in syringes. Odd, yes, but nothing worth writing home over. You need to drop a few feats and find a lab and find a power source to make these and then mass purchase working batteries to keep what you make running. Lot of micromanagement involved. I wouldn't be against allowing it, but you really need a spacefaring theme or a Numerian story to get it to have a decent feel in character.

EDIT: I've found that the Occult Adventures playtest classes are all psychic and sight unseen I am tempted to scrap Wayland for my longer running, now defunct mentalist character from my freeform RP. Entirely despite the fact that it would make no sense that he would be anywhere on Golarion and that he'd likely be somewhere between LE and CN. Chalk this up to me getting ideas for villains if round robin GMing rolls around to me.

Since I do not recall, what is the current year?

CDL and ace,

How are you coming on your rebuilds?

It's a work in progress.

I'm pretty much done. Might just swap around a bit of gear. The Fortuitous weapon quality looks fun and I'm guessing boots of teleportation are generally better than 45 scrolls of greater teleport.

If everyone can be done by Monday, I'd like to open up the game thread and get the initial scene started with us. The newcomers will then be plugged in as their character sheets are finished up.

CDL brought up the idea that alchemists/wizards/witches/and other classes that have to acquire spells should be able to do so for free or at a reduced price.

In the original thread it was stated that they would have to pay the cost of a scroll, then pay to write the scroll to their spellbook/familiar/etc.

CDL suggests allowing them to pay a much reduced price of the charge to copy from another spellbook/familiar/etc.

Since most have something like a blessed book that already eliminates the need of the copy cost, this would have an impact on the selection available to these characters.

To buy all the wizard spells in scrolls, for instance, would cost well over a hundred thousand gold. The copy cost is about a tenth of that.

Your opinions?

My reasoning is that we're part of giant interplanar organization with several high level casters. Why wouldn't we have such spells on hand for easy copying?

I retracted my argument for completely free copying, but the reduced rates allowed in the magic section of the rules seems like it would handle the issue quite nicely.

Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.

To buy all the wizard spells in scrolls, for instance, would cost well over a hundred thousand gold. The copy cost is about a tenth of that.

Actually Fnord, the cost on scrolls for all arcane spells is way over 100,000... for 9th level spells alone. For all 8th and 9th alone we're talking about something on the order of 330,000gp just in scroll costs, and while the costs become lesser thereafter (especially once you fall under 5th level), I suspect the cost for all spells that way is probably closer to 700,000gp before it's all said and done. Now obviously you don't want to buy every spell, but you are still talking about a huge percentage of wealth tied up in spells alone.

CDL brought up the idea that alchemists/wizards/witches/and other classes that have to acquire spells should be able to do so for free or at a reduced price.

In the original thread it was stated that they would have to pay the cost of a scroll, then pay to write the scroll to their spellbook/familiar/etc.

I think CDL's point is valid - to a point. Paying full price on all scroll and all spells seems unlikely for experienced, well traveled, well connected epic characters. That said, I'm also of the opinion that there probably aren't tons of wizards floating around all over who let you copy all of their spells for free - especially at higher levels. There aren't that many wizards in the entire world with 9th level spells to begin with, not all of them reasonably have access to every 9th level spell (read none of them have access to every spell), and of them not all of them are likely to be willing to share every spell (or in some cases any).

Inner Sea Magic for instance lists a total of 12 wizards with access to 9th level spells. Of those 12, 7 are missing and presumed dead. The remainder? Two liches (Arazni & Socorro), a ghost (Geb), a drow (Alicavniss Vonnarc), and a false god (Razmir).

With that in mind, even allowing the option to buy all scrolls (much less all spells) seems pretty generous. Golarion is not Forgotten Realms with epic wizards under ever table, nor is it even Greyhawk with cabals of wizards like the Circle of Eight.

Since most have something like a blessed book that already eliminates the need of the copy cost, this would have an impact on the selection available to these characters.

The scribing costs even with a blessed book are relatively high if you want every spell - or even close to it. I think I broke down the numbers last year on a thread about the arcanist and quick study, and even with no scribing costs and only the cost of purchasing spells from other casters you get well over the 100,000 mark quite quickly.

Your opinions?

I'd suggest a compromise. X number of spells of each level can have been purchases from other spellcasters over the years to copy out of spellbooks, where X is a diminishing number based on the spell level.

For instance, we might get an array like this:

1st - 40
2nd - 36
3rd - 32
4th - 28
5th - 24
6th - 20
7th - 16
8th - 12
9th - 8

Which would allow people to fill out a spellbook with a decent array, while still requiring that they spend a reasonable amount to have access to every spell they could possibly want. It also opens the door to characters, as they get to know each other, sharing the more obscure spells they might have.

Just to be clear, if I want to Add two rings together, it's just double the cost crafting a ring with two properties would be, right? With the amount of gold I'm pouring into wands of Good Hope, I might as well grab a Ring of Spell Knowledge and call it a day.

Full cost for the more expensive ring, 1.5 for the less expensive ring(s).

Ring of protection +5 retails for 50k.
ring of Wizadry I retails for 20k.

Crafting a ring of Wizardly Protection would cost 50k + (20k*1.5=)30k=80k*.5 (for crafting)= 40k.

Upgrading that ring of Wizardly Protection from wizard I to wizard III would change the cost as the most expensive component has now changed.

New cost:
70k + (50k*1.5=)75k= 145k*.5= 72.5k, an increase of 32.5k from the original ring to the upgraded ring.

Adding additional "rings" is each x1.5 for all lower cost items.

So crafting sustenance onto the ring would cost 2500*1.5=3750*.5=1875.

We have two items up for discussion.

Price for access to additional spells for artificers, witches, wizards and similar classes.

Divine Protection Feat.

I don't have Forge Ring on Way, so I was thinking that the rules for buying a doubled up ring would be the same rules as crafting a doubled up wondrous item. Everything is doubled, though, since I'm not cashing in on the DIY discount.

As for additional spells, wizards and non-unlettered arcanists have it easier than familiar-dependent casters. It's easier to think there are hidden spellbooks than roaming familiars with 9th level spell knowledge. I'd say if your spells are prepared from familiar communion, you need to buy the scroll and make the check. If not, maybe we could roll a library fee into copying spells from books. The price to copy a spell into a book is pretty negligible, I think.

As for Divine Protection, I don't see enough of a clear difference from us using Bestow Grace to entitle a full ban of the feat. Besides, just allowing it for foes should make things more interesting.

Without forge ring, you just pay the retail price. In my example above, that would be 80k for the first ring, 145k for the second.

The double pricing is only for slotless items.

Is there anything in particular I should be posting in the game play thread just now? Or are you setting up the plot?

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Setting up a plot.

Feel free to free write taking care of your demesne, affairs, etc.

Assume it's a few days after returning from the sands. We decided to look for additional information on the history of the region, the extra moon visible when in the desert, the ongoing winds.

I''ve had one response to two issues.

Reduced/free spells for artificers, witches, wizards etc?

Forbid divine protection feat?

I am fine with reduced or free spells in general; anything to save a buck in this practically medieval economy will be grateful :p

As for divine protection, I can't see Tessara going through the trouble of trying to qualify for the feat. Personally, I can see the benefits of it and in another campaign it would be great. But for this, a good (strategic/tactical) game play style would seem to trump min/max for the sake of min/max'ing.

In fairness, not everyone who takes that feat does so to min/max... I, for example, had chosen it to add to my paladin-like feel (it seemed a natural feat for someone with a prestige class that requires taking the paladin code and that grants the aura of courage).

DM- on a related note, I never got a ruling on the Inheritor's Crusader PrC's champion of honor ability... it says prestige class levels stack with Paladin levels for the smite evil ability but doesn't say what happens if you don't have paladin levels... the paizo default seems to be that you add PrC levels to your 0 base levels in that case, so I'd smite as a 3rd level pally (see Eldritch Knight's diverse training or Dragon Disciple's blood of dragons for the first examples that popped into my mind); the only thing is they usually state explicitly what to do in that case... I didn't check every single PrC, but I looked at quite a few of them and couldn't find a single one where you just miss out on an ability if you don't have the right base class (though I seem to remember there being one where you could miss out on casting, maybe?) but this PrC doesn't explicitly state anything either way so I wanted to check...

In fairness, not everyone who takes that feat does so to min/max... I, for example, had chosen it to add to my paladin-like feel (it seemed a natural feat for someone with a prestige class that requires taking the paladin code and that grants the aura of courage).

DM- on a related note, I never got a ruling on the Inheritor's Crusader PrC's champion of honor ability... it says prestige class levels stack with Paladin levels for the smite evil ability but doesn't say what happens if you don't have paladin levels... the paizo default seems to be that you add PrC levels to your 0 base levels in that case, so I'd smite as a 3rd level pally (see Eldritch Knight's diverse training or Dragon Disciple's blood of dragons for the first examples that popped into my mind); the only thing is they usually state explicitly what to do in that case... I didn't check every single PrC, but I looked at quite a few of them and couldn't find a single one where you just miss out on an ability if you don't have the right base class (though I seem to remember there being one where you could miss out on casting, maybe?) but this PrC doesn't explicitly state anything either way so I wanted to check...

I wasn't showing any bias towards/against the concept of min/max, Arenial. Quite honestly, I tend to encourage it in my players. I was just expressing my opinion on the usefulness of min/max'ing in this campaign, based on everything that I've read so far.

Since I'm the one who brought it up, you all know my stance on reduced fees.

I stand with Ace on Divine Protection. I don't see the point of banning one stat-to-saves feat when there are many ways to do the same thing when you have five levels to burn. For example, my character is a Lunar Oracle. One of my Revelations allows me to use my Charisma over my Dex for reflex saves, and according to a recent FAQ, taking a couple of levels of Paladin or Divine Protection wouldn't allow me to add my Charisma again. Even if I wasn't building an Oracle-centric character, it would still be good dip for a high level character with good Charisma.

Also, we only banned the advanced template for monsters. One of our old players was an Advanced Halfling Cavalier.

Since I'm the one who brought it up, you all know my stance on reduced fees. I stand with Ace on Divine Protection.

I concur.

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What time of year is it? I am thinking of doing a post and the time of year factors in.

How do we feel about commissioning custom magic items again? I just went through the calculations and getting a pair of summoner crafted Boots of Greater Teleportation (as the regular BoT, just with Teleport switched with the Greater version) should run 70,200 gp. Curious about if that would be cool with everyone.

My internet went down at work on Friday, or I would have had this posted before now.

So everyone wants power creep.

Okay, divine protection is allowed.

I'll be adjusting some my bosses accordingly. No, I won't adjust all of them, but I do now need to ensure that some of the encounters are challenges for those with stupid high saves. Which will of course give those that don't have such high saves a decided disadvantage in those encounters.

Based on current character statistics, this feat is an increase of (assuming only a swapped feat and minimum necessary to meet qualifications):
Existing characters:
Katja: +7 all saves to 31/25/33
Weyland: unknown
CDL: unknown
Validk: +9 all saves to 27/33/35

New characters:
Tessara: +12 all saves to 32/35/33
Areniel: +8 all saves to 40/20/48
Illos: +9 all saves to 33/31/40
Vicarius: incomplete? +3 all saves to 22/22/28

I hope you all can see how this will drastically affect encounters.
The typical 9th level ability will have a base DC of 23. (With a 19 attribute) To pump this up to give a 50% failure chance to the highest save would require pumping the DC to 58 for a will save. This would require the NPC to have a casting attribute of around (58-23=35*2=70+19=)89 this can be lowered somewhat with spell penetration, GSP, and some other abilities.

Giving Areniel a challenge with a 50% success rate would result in the next highest will save only having a 10% success rate and everyone else needing a 20 to succeed.

Let's try the lowest save, reflex. Again, creating an encounter with a 50% success rate for the highest reflex rate would require a DC of 45. The next highest reflex rate has a success rate of 60%, and the lowest reflex rate needs a 20.

And ace, there is a huge difference between an always on ability and one that requires an action and resource expenditure per use and is limited in duration.

@CDL Lunar oracle repalces dex with cha for one save. It doesn't add cha on top of all your existing saves, big difference.

@Lord Manticore, Tessara already meets the qualifications for DP, IIRC you also stated you had an open feat slot. You make a good point. min/maxing in this campaign is very bad. It will make encounters extremely difficult to develop and play out. There is a huge difference between optimizing and min/maxing.

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@Arienel I looked at a lot of PrC's. There are several that explicitly state that class abilities are stacked, and others that do not give this explicit statement. It is interesting to note that there are two FAQ comments on the PrC and neither addresses that issue. Nor is this the first PrC that can be taken by multiple classes, but has abilities that only affect a single class.

In light of those aspects, I'd have to state that I do not believe the ability was designed to impart phantom paladin levels. You could choose to dip a level in paladin and then the ability would work.

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@GMV 1d12 ⇒ 4 Looks like mid spring.

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@aceDiamond Regarding custom magic gear. In character generation, I'd prefer that we either keep it to you must have the feats and craft yourself, or just let everyone have twice as much gold and no feats needed (a house rule eliminating crafting feats from the game, and halving all magic items).

After the start of the game, you can commission items, but you'd need a game mechanic for reducing the price. And since time then becomes a factor, finding another player that wants to walk away from the game for upwards of a year (in game) to craft one piece of gear isn't likely. (200,000 item takes 200 days)

*****

I believe this addresses all outstanding questions. If I have missed someone, please forgive me and repost it.

I'm not going to start moving around levels- if that's your ruling I'm not gonna worry about a 3rd level smite. Also, as I stated, I'm not going to take DP even if it's approved (in order to keep my saves more in line with everyone else's). And, in fairness, I think there's some understanding/expectation that characters at this level are going to make the vast majority of saves- it wouldn't be a very interesting (or lengthy) campaign if every time we ran into a high level wizard half of the party got trapped by imprisonment... Or vice versa- if every encounter lasts 1 round before all our enemies are imprisoned that won't be all that compelling... Save or suck spells should be a desperate longshot, not a 50/50 instant win (IMO).

I'm not planning on grabbing DP on Way. Right now, I've got him sitting at +31/20/20 normally and I think +41/20/27 when raging. There's a few other buffs I could do, but those would be spells for when we see an encounter coming or if I'm willing to trade combat rounds to use buff spells.

I'm thinking that I would rather not take DP, but based on your numbers, Fnord, I might not have a choice if I want Tessara to stay competitive. I'll have to give it a little thought and I'll let you know if I take it or not.

All this talk about Divine Protection and I'm surprised no one rolled up a Lore Oracle. At that point, you could just replace your Dex and Wis scores with "does it really matter?"

Also, in that case, I'll eschew custom items and hang on to the small library of scrolls for travel. That and Phantom Steed.

Sorry I am taking so long, I ended up injuring my shoulder, so I have been hurting to bad to do much.

What I noticed is that while the archon would certainly be broken with DP, that everyone else's saves were within a few points of each other.

Though Vicarious definitely needs some work.

Phantom Steed is awesome.

Sorry about your injury David, hope you're healing well!

So, on one hand I've gotten posts about what's taking so long, on the other hand I've seen posts on not being ready.

I think that Katja and Validk are the only two characters that are ready.

Next week is a major holiday for the US, and I believe most of us are there. I had hoped to start working on getting characters introduced and the preambles completed by then.

Unfortunately, it isn't looking that way from what I am seeing.

I'm going to start with anyone ready on Dec 1. Those completed after that will get worked in as appropriate. I'd like to be able to review finalized sheets over this weekend.

Areniel's character sheet is 95% complete... I just have about 10% of my starting wealth in flux (it's mostly going to be allocated to costly material components) and one feat I might switch out (devastating strike- might trade it for leadership)... I'm waiting to hear from Katja/Vixen about a potential background connection and then those things will be finalized almost immediately. I know I still owe you a new background- I haven't had a chance to right anything yet but I have been thinking about it. I live in the Buffalo NY area so things have been a little crazy (we've been getting pounded by snow: 6-7 feet THIS WEEK in some places) but things should be calming down soon and I'll get that up quickly too.

What I noticed is that while the archon would certainly be broken with DP, that everyone else's saves were within a few points of each other.

Though Vicarious definitely needs some work.

Phantom Steed is awesome.

Sorry about your injury David, hope you're healing well!

So, on one hand I've gotten posts about what's taking so long, on the other hand I've seen posts on not being ready.

I think that Katja and Validk are the only two characters that are ready.

Next week is a major holiday for the US, and I believe most of us are there. I had hoped to start working on getting characters introduced and the preambles completed by then.

Unfortunately, it isn't looking that way from what I am seeing.

I'm going to start with anyone ready on Dec 1. Those completed after that will get worked in as appropriate. I'd like to be able to review finalized sheets over this weekend.

About the only thing I have left is picking a mythic feat, and writing some more background. My cohort and followers I will leave in background for now, and just say that they are off handling various missions to gather information for a rumored new Crusade. I've decided to not take DP, as that would just make things 'too muchness' as the Mad Hatter would say. I have about 140k gp left, but I can't think of much left that Tessara would need, so I'm going to put that into reserve for now. If there are any other issues with my character, please let me know.

I'm waiting to hear from Katja/Vixen about a potential background connection and then those things will be finalized almost immediately.

I'm so sorry, I think I missed what you were wanting. Would you repost the background connection you had in mind?

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Katja- it's in the spoiler in the post I made prior to the one you saw. (I think it's post #182)

I am just slowly typing him up

and, here's a repost (since that will probably be simpler for you)

and, here's a repost (since that will probably be simpler for you) for Katja/Vixen: How do you feel about Areniel and Katja possibly having a 'history'? I thought it might be an interesting way to connect backgrounds, there's a bunch of different ways it could flavor roleplaying, and for some reason I'm totally in love with the idea of having twins one of whom is a half-celestial silver dragon and the other is a half-dragon trumpet archon (both with the potential to one day exceed us in power). If you're into the idea I might even take leadership just to have one of the kids as a cohort. I'm open to a lot of different flavors for the nature of that relationship... Lovers with no interest in human constructs like marriage, kindred spirits with deep mutual affection and respect who periodically express that physically, near deific beings who meet each other's physical desires as no mortal could (booty call), former cohabitators who stopped that arrangements due to some dispute, a somewhat unrequited love (one in love but the other more concerned with their 'mission'), whatever seems interesting to you... Or, if you're not interested at all that's cool too- just let me know.

Thanks! I'll look over that in detail and let you know on Saturday. Is there one that you are particularly fond of?

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@Vixen/Katja-

@Vixen/Katja-

** spoiler omitted **
I look forward to hearing from you on Saturday.

I like the idea of being more than just merely lovers. Something like we are very close in many ways with the intimacy being one of said ways.

We probably don't always live together since powerful beings such as us have responsibilities which require constant travel. If you have read my background on where Katja lives, I can easily write you in a room there as I have not fully fleshed out the manor.

As for how our characters interact with each other, your proposal is fine.

Katja- Sounds great. I wasn't planning on really having my own fort/estate/whatever, so a room at your place would be great! I don't need to sleep so I probably wouldn't be there every night, but if you don't object at all I'd probably have extended stays in between missions. Also, if you're ok with it, I'd pay for a permanent telepathic bond for the 2 of us. Oh, and should it be a secret relationship or will people know that your human sorceress personae is consorting with an archon?

And how do you feel about possibly having kids? Like I said, for some reason I really like the idea of having a set of twins where one is a half-celestial dragon and the other is a half-dragon archon.... Are you ok with that? If so, I'll take leadership with one of the twins as my cohort (won't bring them into combat at all- would have them serving as my eyes/ears in the cities near the worldwound to keep me appraised of new threats and talk of crusades).

Finally, I didn't see much in your background about previous exploits... Have you done anything in/near the worldwound that could serve as where and when we first met? If not, can you suggest a situation for that encounter?

Sounds interesting.

Looking forward to seeing what mischief the two of you get into.

I have an idea for a future arc but I'm still working out some of the pieces. I'm not sure how well it would work pbp, but I think this is one of the only places where it could work.

If you don't want a spoiler, don't peek.

Thanks!

It seems we had nobody interested in requiring full price for additional spells for those classes that need to acquire them.

Peter provided the best control idea.

Spells that can be "copied" from a library or another spell caster will use the following table:

1st - 40
2nd - 36
3rd - 32
4th - 28
5th - 24
6th - 20
7th - 16
8th - 12
9th - 8

Spells above and beyond this are still charged the scroll price.

Note that without a blessed book or similar method, there is still a cost to copy the spell into the spell book. The above price break is just for getting access to the spell.

If you have any questions or comments on this, speak up. I'd like to work on Validk's spellbook too.

I have a question regarding my own character in particular.

There are various class abilities out there that allow access to other spell lists.

These generally allow a spell from another list to be added at +1 level if it isn't on your own class list.

Wizards have an ability to design spells from scratch. This is something that rarely comes up in pbp's.

I'd like to be able to "design" some spells from other class lists. (keeps the whole power by level and appropriateness arguments to a minimum)

I was thinking that I would be able to design them at +1 level. I.e. A cure light wounds that is a second level arcane spell. The cost for designing a spell is $1000 gold per cost of spell. So designing an arcane CLW would cost $2000. (Note that I could buy almost 3 full wands and probably not use them all for the same price. My UMD is high enough to not worry about failing)

Of course, I would need a 10th level slot in order to get a 9th level spell from another list.

Your thoughts?