So much to unpack there from both of you. For context and for what it is worth, I spent my Saturday night watching WW84 (because it is leaving HBO Max and I wanted to make sure I caught it for the second time). Watched Wandavision episode 3 for the third time, and currently have Age of Ultron on the TV because it was recommended after WandaVision. I've had enough to drink that I said sure.
With regard to Marvel and DC films, I, too, am basically watching what they are doing but also just spinning my own head cannon.
Watching WandaVision, which I think is great, I find myself wishing that there had never been a Marvel Television division at all. (I realize that this might have meant no Netflix MCU, and therefore the death of our little story, which would be sad.) A television division in charge of filling in the gaps between the movies could have mad those stories so much deeper.
And in regard to that, I feel like there is a difference between Marvel TV ala Netflix and Agents of Shield and Peggy Carter. To me, the Peggy Carter seasons are closer to MCU cannon than the Netflix and Agents of Shield series.
But to my earlier point, I would love a series that fills in the gaps in Hulk's development (something I've followed in comics for decades). You could create at least a season of a show that would take us from Hulk won't show up to Hulk will combine himself with Banner.
The same could be said for the Hawkeye/Widow relationship. I know that Renner is problematic and I fully expect Natasha to get short shrift even once we finally see her film. But there is so much that could be done there before we even get to the first appearance of those two characters.
The one Thor scene I'm sad we will never get is from the series where Asgard is destroyed and moves to a floating island above Kansas. Secretary of Defense Stark comes to confront Thor about moving his people to Kansas (New Asgard, as seen in Norway in the MCU). At this point, Odin is "dead" and Thor has inherited his power, gaining access to the Odin-Force.
The "battle" between the two of them consists of Stark making some warnings and threats, and Thor blasting him with some Odin-Force enhanced lightning. The Iron Man armor crumbles under this assault, and Thor is a pretty nice friend about the whole thing, not rubbing it too much in Tony's face. It is a nice Thor as Superman moment. Thor is mostly humoring you and enjoying the battle.
Game post got eaten (I've just noticed!) will redo shortly. Meantime my long overdue upgrade/rework to Frank is underway o'er this weekend.
No change in abilities. Skill set has changed/improved a little.
Powers and Advantages WIP.
Here's his reworked MCU Origin. Tried to channel the deep dive MCU knowledge you both have in abundance over me. Let me know if timelines/content is off or throws up problems and I'll happily alter.
Frank Payne originally was a mid-ranking specialist in criminal cartels within the international extra-governmental military counter-terrorism and intelligence agency S.H.I.E.L.D. When the organisation mooted a covert programme to send agents undercover as an “enhanced” mercenary to infiltrate criminal syndicates and terrorist groups, Frank volunteered. Despite being married and father to a young daughter, Frank saw the deep cover operation as one that would ultimately net him both prestige and status within S.H.I.E.L.D. and the resulting financial reward would secure his family for life.
In 2011, with the rewards outweighing the risks, Frank joined the fledgling Project: Ouroboros and was outfitted with a battle suit incorporating technology theory utilised in the armour of the rogue Russian physicist Ivan Vanko [aka "Whiplash"] in the form of two Cogmium coils. S.H.I.E.L.D. then provided him with the new identity of Frances “Frankie” Schlichting - complete with rap sheet and underworld credentials and the codename of Constrictor.
Constrictor enjoyed immediate success, the suits prowess and Frank’s training garnering kudos and employment in some of the world’s most notorious criminal organisations. Domestically he was tied with the Manfredi Crime Family, but also worked internationally alongside mercenaries such as Marcus Scarlotti and Georges Batroc.
Despite his S.H.I.E.L.D. training, the intense nature of the deep cover assignment and its constant requirement to act as a criminal, whilst simultaneously undermining their operations took its psychological toll. Frank became more paranoid, and after several brushes with Interpol, he became convinced that S.H.I.E.L.D. had cut him loose. His intel to his handler dried up as he became more immersed in his Frank Schlichting/Constrictor cover. Soon afterward S.H.I.E.L.D. designated him as “rogue” and Director Fury ordered the Ouroboros programme shut down and informed his family that Frank was MIA, presumed dead.
In 2013 Fury ordered special agent Clint Barton that Frank be recovered or neutralised. Less than a year later Barton was successful, taking down an unstable Frank but failing to recover his eponymous battlesuit. Deemed no longer a viable S.H.I.E.L.D. asset Frank was sentenced under the lesser charge of “diminished responsibility” and incarcerated indefinitely in the Brynmore Psychiatric Facility.
He remained there until 2015 when the facility was comprised by Calvin Zabo, and in the ensuing chaos Frank took the opportunity to abscond. Disgraced and on the run, he had little option but to head to an old safehouse, where his past awaited him. Hidden within he found paperwork and IDs for his old identity - Frank Schlichting… and more importantly the recovered Constrictor suit.
Committed to redeeming himself, Frank enrolled himself on a criminal reform programme where “Frank Schlichting's” pseudo-criminal profile served him well. If he couldn’t redeem himself his own identity, it would be symbolic to change the one he had worn in his downfall. Honest living for a dishonest man. A chance to earn the the respect and love of his family again… eventually. A contact on the programme suggested he head to New York - friend of his, Earl Laduc, ran a diner there. Always had a spot for a hard luck case looking to turn themselves around for the better.
One phonemail later, Frank was on a Greyhound to NYC with his future ahead of him and his past in the luggage case…
Had a huge pile of extra work dumped on me yesterday for this week. I'll post when I can, but if I disappear for a few days you will know why.
Family emergency. May not be able to post for awhile. Will update when I can.
Hope all is okay DQ - likewise take it easy ST.
Back-ish. I expect to be slower than usual but that shouldn't be a problem for this game.
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I know we're taking it slow, but just FYI I believe Frank and I are waiting for the GM to move us forward.
PS: In today's new episode of WandaVision, some of the protagonists disguise themselves in ponchos. Clearly they have attended the Frank Payne school of camoflage (rather than the Avengers school, which requires sunglasses and a ball cap).
I'll get something up on Saturday.
I know we're taking it slow, but just FYI I believe Frank and I are waiting for the GM to move us forward.
PS: In today's new episode of WandaVision, some of the protagonists disguise themselves in ponchos. Clearly they have attended the Frank Payne school of camoflage (rather than the Avengers school, which requires sunglasses and a ball cap).
Haha. Excellent. Not watched it yet - reviews have been good tho' so its on the list.
Sorry, folks. I had my 2nd vaccine yesterday and am just wrecked today. Hopefully tomorrow will be better.
No rush chief - hope your feeling more chipper in the days to come. Good to hear you've had both your vaccines tho'.
I've heard the second dose especially of the Moderna hits some folks like a truck. Rest up and stay warm and we'll be here when you're ready.
Finally got my s**t together and finished the revamp on Frank. With the additional 2PP we've earned I purchased the Diehard Advantage for him - figured it fitted well after his beatdown at the hands of Mr Neg.
Rejigged some of his skills/powers/advantages etc to fit more with his history and current status. Pretty happy with him. Read an old issue of Gambit online that I'd never seen before where he and DD get into it with Frank. DD's overriding note on him is how tough Constrictor is - as a low grade meta-enforcer he takes a lickin' and his coils had some interesting uses which I've inducted in the revamp (Movement - Safe Fall) being one he uses in the issue.
Appreciate the patience :)
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So Frank and Dottie can now both leap off fire escapes, excellent. Dramatic entrance opportunities abound!
Haha - we are indeed with slo-mo and soundtrack!
Morning folks - just a wee heads up that I'm in today for lockdown overdue surgery on my sinuses. Not a major procedure but means I'll likely be out of the loop for 24-72 depending on success, pain meds and all that fun stuff.
Please bot Frank as necessary until I'm fit for purpose.
Best wishes that all goes well.
So, I know this is a really weird thing to do for your character, but I've been looking up clothing and shoe ideas to get a composite for what her final look will be (to go with the awesome coat SuperT found).
And I was looking up boots, and while I was originally envisioning something different (and higher), I found these and feel like somehow I definitely need to go with these....
What do you think?
Good "episode" y'all.
Updated my hero points. It went from zero to 2 because I had not added the one awarded me when Dottie was trying to handle the bottle of darkforce, and may have committed murder because she was freaked out and fell back on her oldest and hardest core of training.
Unrelated, but for past conversations we've had. I saw this video with fan theories about Cap's ending in Endgame (which I know disappoints at least DQ and I). This fan theory makes me happier than the idea of Steve being with Peggy and letting all of the bad s$%& go down.
In particular, the part where Steve saves Bucky who is a Super Soldier but not yet the Winter Soldier makes me happy.
Bucky becomes Captain America and forms the the Avengers in the 50s or 60s with Hank and Janet and maybe Howard Stark (and they don't mention him in the video but I'd toss Laurence Fishburn's Goliath in there) is show or movie I would watch.
Thanks for the vid. Screencrush tends to do some interesting pieces even if I don't always agree with them. I don't like any scenario where Cap has gone back in time to Peggy, for venty reasons I have put below in the spoiler. And I'm not sure I think the scenario presented in the spoiler makes sense unless Cap actually came back from like 2060 or something, where Sam is actually old. I was thinking it'd be cool if it was an alt-universe Isaiah's shield. But I'm worried that would undermine his story. I like what the theorists are trying to do, make it more like a shield that is and has been Sam's, and puts weight behind Steve's reassuring Sam that the shield is his when he gives it to him.
I have many, many problems with the "Steve Goes Back" story that they created, but as a Peggy fan, some of my biggest concerns from a personal perspective revolve around Peggy:
The end of Endgame negates Peggy's entire, major story arc in Agent Carter where she moves on past Steve and starts seeing other people, including having dreams featuring musical sequences with all four of her potential love interests at once where Steve does not figure in in the slightest. It makes presumptions on the part of Peggy--that she has never been over him, that she will immediately take him back--that contradict her own character development in her own show. (And no, her having a picture of him on her desk does not mean she "never got over him." It just means she wants to remember him. I keep pictures of people I love who have passed. It's what normal people do.)
Also, as a friend pointed out, if Steve told Peggy why and how he had come, she would probably be furious that he had left his friends, including Bucky, in a devastated post-apocalypse to clean up the mess without him and tell him to turn around and go right back and stop running away from his problems.
Then there's the whole pedestal Steve has put Peggy upon. By Endgame, he seems to think of her as the solution to all his problems. That is NOT what their relationship was about in CA:TFA. They were attracted to each other because they were relative equals--but Peggy never let Steve sit around and feel sorry for himself (which is all Steve does in the 21st Century when he's not fighting someone). And she certainly wouldn't allow him to use her as the emotional crutch he seems to want her to be.
I also have a massive problem with this as a used-to-be-a-Steve fan. Steve stopped having any real character development post Winter Soldier. He never learns to mourn, grieve, or accept loss--things that as humans we all must do to survive with our emotional health inact. He always just relies on his friends to carry his emotional baggage for him, or gets into as many fights as possible so he doesn't think about living life. He is always looking to the past and never to the future. This is incredibly, deeply unhealthy and, in my opinion, unheroic. The idea that he goes back to the past and expects everything to be all better is /delusional/, not a happy ever after ending. It means his story ends with him never having grown, and his purportedly "learning to live life" all happens offscreen as a nice pat handwave by writers too lazy to have him do the real work of it onscreen. While I loved Steve and Peggy's romance in TFA, I cannot imagine a Peggy accepting Endgame Steve, who constantly runs away from his own emotions and expects the people around him to be his emotional crutches. She would come down on him hard and tell him to buck up and get over it--after all, she did. And for Steve's own sake, I want him to develop the emotional health to learn to *cope* and not fight only because he doesn't know how to do anything else. (Comic book Steve has done this hard work--including traveling back in time and then realizing it's foolish and goes back to his new time--and is a much, much better character for it.)
((My insane obsessive side would also like to interject that OBVIOUSLY as Peggy is Dottie's one true love that no other pairing is allowable. Please never mind the fact that Dottie is an evil murdering murderer. #Carterwood))
All of these issues I have MASSIVELY before we even get to any ramifications upon the MCU. If he lays low and is just an artist while Peggy does all the work, then yes, it seems heartless he just lets Bucky suffer and Nat and everyone and so on. Maybe that's the easiest solution to just say it changes nothing, but yes, it makes Cap look like a dick.
But if he spawns an alternate timeline that also creates problems. The first of which is this (even if Cap is unaware of it): Dr. Strange explores over 14 million timelines; he finds there is only one where Thanos is defeated, and that is the main timeline. So any timeline Cap creates is one is doomed to end with Thanos's victory---to add some additional Fridge Horror to this, this means that if Cap returned from his other timeline to give Sam the shield, this means he's left his own post-apocalyptic nightmare to go back to the universe where everybody won, and seems smugly happy with himself for doing so.
((Here is the part that is relevant to the video)) And I strongly dislike/disagree with the idea of the "Perfect Timeline" created by Cap. It presumes an invincibility/infallibility/omniscience on the part of Cap that he doesn't deserve to have. Like yes, it would be nice if Steve rescued Bucky. But how in the heck does he do that? How does he find out where he is? The video suggests that Bucky tells him, but would Bucky even know--if he was frozen, he may have been moved around to different locations without Bucky being aware. In TWS he is stored in Washington, DC but Civil War shows he was active in the 1990s in Siberia. It's quite likely they moved him to different hiding places, and probably often when he was unconscious/frozen because he would have been a risk to handle otherwise. I don't even know how he gets from Soviet hands to Hydra's--although I have a plausible theory that Fenhoff told Zola when they were cellmates. Steve is confirmed to go back to 1948 (Word of God, and not sooner because then it would interfere in the events of Agent Carter which the creators said they didn't want to happen), which is two years into Zola and Fenhoff being cellmates, and Bucky could already have been found and moved. Steve is also amazing and powerful but there's no guarantee he'd have the capacity to get through whatever security to get to Bucky and safely defrost him, either. There's a general "Cap always wins/Cap can never do wrong" attitude among his fans who love this ending, and they just seem to think he will achieve whatever he wants without a fight--or that there may be unforeseen consequences down the road. E.g., if he rescues Bucky, great, but how does his existence and relationships affect, say Tony; does Tony never become Iron Man? If he rescues Natasha from the Red Room when she is a child does that mean Natasha never saves the lives she saves later in her life after her reformation? Etc. etc. Lots of butterfly effect potential; to assume somehow Steve, even with the best of intentions, can absolutely do no harm--or create unforeseen consequences at least--trying to change things is naive. He's a good man with super strength; he isn't an omniscient god.
To take this further: if he warns Peggy against Hydra in trying to stop their infestation of SHIELD, could he make matters worse? By forcing Hydra out of the woodwork, do they instead either grow immediately more belligerent and tackle him as a threat, and or simply infiltrate other organizations instead, just as the Council of Nine (a.k.a. the Secret Empire) was doing in 1947 (and it is established, as they had been doing for decades). In Agent Carter Season 2, we see the Council-corrupted FBI and other Federal officers talking about shutting down the SSR as an obsolete, war agency. In standard MCU history, SHIELD rises to take the SSR's place to sidestep the concern that the SSR is obsolete, but if Steve tries to stop Hydra's infestation of SHIELD, could that inadventertently prevent the formation of SHIELD at all? Either because Peggy, Stark, and General Whatsisname decide that it's too dangerous to form SHIELD based on what Steve has told them, or because Hydra's/the Council's influence on the U.S. and other governments makes them double down on not only shutting down the SSR but ensuring nothing appears to take its place. Steve also as one man does not have the institutional power to be able to halt Project Paperclip (a real historic thing that happened). He could prevent its implementation in SHIELD maybe but not all around. That other institutions, including the FBI, CIA, various global peacekeeping activities, etc. would just become infested instead is quite likely.
Indeed, the timeline I envision is one where Steve inadvertently just makes Hydra the lead threat in his own time--after all, if there are superheroes, supervillains will show up to fight them. So he becomes busy fighting that threat and can't just "fix everything" in a perfect timeline. (It could also be the timeline that the Agents of SHIELD visit/create in their own Season 7 time traveling journey). I've even got a bit of a fanfic mapped out where this kind of thing happens though I'm too lazy to write it. It does of course feature Dottie joining forces with Steve, of course not because I'm totally obsessed, but because she is obviously investigating Hydra infiltrating things (it's why canonically she steals the Arena club pin and warns Peggy "the rot runs deeper than you realize") and it would therefore make total sense that the two would meet, and he would be soft on her because her circumstances would remind him of Natasha, and she would run circles around him. (And also this happens in my version of the story because I am totally obsessed with Dottie.) Sure, maybe eventually Steve finds Bucky and saves him sooner, but I don't think it will be anywhere as easy or as obvious as a lot of Cap fans want to argue.
Oddly the one issue that others have that I have never had is that he lets his younger self stay frozen (which I bring up because the Screencrush vid mentions it). A lot of people are really bugged by this. This is the one thing that to me makes sense for it to be as it is. A) I don't think he could find him. They looked thoroughly for Captain America and couldn't find him and I don't think Steve would have any better luck. The Capsicle is stuck in a glacier; glaciers move around all the time--the latitude and longitude where he was found is not necessarily where he would be 70 years prior. Also I'm thinking it might just take 70 years of global warming for the ice to melt enough for Steve to be found (and why SHIELD didn't get the signal/signs of a crashed-something in the arctic until 2012). B) If he frees younger Steve that creates more alternate timelines.
Finally and in conclusion, f!!$ Captain America.
Still Cap related (kindof)... I'm actually preferring the scenario presented in the forthcoming What if? where Peggy is Captain Britain. Remove Steve from the whole thing and keep it Pegcentric :)
Well Steve is still in that as Iron Man (and as Peggy's love interest). But yes, give her the spotlight. :)
I loved the Peggy-as-Captain-America (with her sidekick Becky Barnes, who seemed to get a personality transplant from Angie Martinelli in the Agent Carter TV show) in the Exiles comic that came out a couple years ago. In that universe Steve died and Peggy took the serum instead. Sadly, then her universe was destroyed but Exiles ended with her actually living in Marvel-616. I don't know if anyone will decide to use her, but what's interesting is also in the comics the native-universe Peggy got resurrected and is the hero called the Dryad so there's actually not one but two living Peggy Carters in Marvel-616 current day. Marvel-19999 needs to get with the program. I've always thought all the MCU's problems could be solved if they just made an LMD army of Peggys, honestly.
Falcon and Winter Soldier ended well.
It's going to be ironic that with these Disney+ shows "minor" characters like Sam, Bucky, Wanda, are going to get deeper stories and more character development than the "main" characters of the MCU. We've all expressed our discontent with the endings for Steve, Bruce, Tony. None of them really seem to have gotten their due in wrapping up their stories. Steve became Cap in what, an hour? But we get 10-12 hours of Sam (obviously not all devoted to him) before he picks up the shield. Bucky got better closure in Falcon and the Winter Soldier and any of those three.
From a more game oriented perspective, it's kind of cool to see how Sam and Bucky progress during the season. Sam clearly spends points to upgrade his sidekick/minion and his skills and suit. He seems to gain at least a Power Level over the course of the series.
Bucky pays off some Complications for new ones. He gains some new alternate powers off of the arm, maybe, but I think he started the season with more PP than Sam anyway.
Sorry was recovering from COVID vaccine (doing much better now).
I agree it's kind of ironic we're going to see more develop for "minor" characters--although obviously these are also the characters they want to push toward being "major" as the MCU continues to grow. I would argue Tony is the only character in the MCU who did get real character development.
I always love doing "what if this were an RPG" analysis on these kind of movies and series. Yeah, I think Sam was PL 9 and has moved up to 10. Steve was probably PL 10 in CA:TWS so Bucky as his archnemesis for that film had to be able to match him. But obviously a lot of reconfiguration to reflect his heroic status, and while I don't think he has increased in PL he certainly has more experience-gained power points to round himself out.
Zemo was clearly also restatted for some better and more powerful use by the GM, complete with Minion and more Connection advantages. Sharon also went from someone else's complication/NPC/advantage to a villain(?) at a higher PL, with boatloads more advantages (minions/equipment(HQ)/connected) as well.
LOL. Decided to watch some of "The Last Ship" to get a Bridget Regan fix. There's a scene where her character (Sasha Cooper) walks into a seedy market and orders a shot of baiju, which is part of a code to get in somewhere. An odd coincidence, but just so the "director" of this "show" knows, the actress knows how to order a shot of baiju in Mandarin. ;)
In other news, I've been thinking. I've really been enjoying this and plan to for some time to come. But I've been feeling something lacking, feeling like there's a side to Dottie I haven't had much of a chance to play with. And realized: she needs a female friend/frenemy/foe she can have conversations with (not someone she can just kill or walk away from without feeling something). It's a key part of her character (not just according to me but to interviews with Bridget Regan and the showrunners) that Dottie in Agent Carter was fascinated by Peggy and felt a connection because she was more or less an equal. She knows the way she was raised is an anomaly and she can't ever be a normal woman; knowing another woman like her really is what causes her to start developing some humanity (even if she is still mainly a creepy stalky sociopath murderer). Also, in my experience and in stories many women (myself included) generally feel a need for female companionship/friendship uniquely, even if also relationships with men have value--highly and uniquely so, but in different ways.
I think that's part of why I pushed for her to meet Jessica, just so she could have a conversation with a woman (and a smart, capable woman who can sass back at her and offer a moral--if heavily jaded--point of view). There are very few female characters in the game who have had a major role. Even with Dottie finding Dr. Samberly, who has at least some vague connection to Dottie's past, the focus and conversation quickly turned to Sterns (which I get, you are more excited about playing the Leader than the daughter of a comic relief side character from Agent Carter; I don't blame you). When I imagine Dottie in this world outside of the actual plot, I imagine her interacting with Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Trish Walker, Mary Walker (no relation). I even once, weirdly, had a lengthy scenario in my head involving Leslie Dean (I have no idea either). I'm not asking for any of those folks to show up specifically, just realizing I keep picturing that because that kind of interaction I am missing.
This is not to invalidate the focus on her partnership with Frank, and obviously PC relationships get priority over NPCs (I had a player who would monopolize the NPCs and thoroughly ignore the PCs; I do not wish to do that). It's just different.
So I am requesting, as long as it does not totally bork future plans, if Dottie can have a female foil/friend with whom she occasionally interacts, even if only for a conversation or two. If it just doesn't suit your story, no worries, just throwing it out there. Maybe I could even eventually invest in a contacts or ally advantage, but that didn't make sense since she was in prison up until about six months ago. Putting it in the discussion thread in case BD has two cents.
TL;DR: This game does not pass the Bechdel Test, and Dottie needs a gal pal. Thank you for listening.
I'll admit that my first response on reading this was a defensive prickling. I recognize that is me sitting in my comfortable cis-white-male space, but it took me some pondering to get there.
Thinking through it more, I'm wondering if any of the Marvel Netflix shows other than JJ pass the test. I'm sure I've said this before, but while what I see on Reddit and the internet in general is mourning over lost Daredevil and Luke Cage, what I'm most sad about in the death of Netflix Marvel is that we won't likely ever see a show with Misty and Colleen. I thought both of those actors were amazing (and appreciated the Race Lift of Colleen Wing).
All that said, I was pretty focused on the Maggia and Mr. Negative as the big players here, and didn't want to mess with the women from the Netflix shows too much.
I wonder if it would be best to go the Falcon and the Winter Soldier route where they turned Flag Smasher into Karli instead of Karl. I don't want to mess around too much with Black Widows, and the women from the Netflix shows don't necessarily seem sturdy enough to me to be a nemesis for Dottie.
I'll certainly keep looking for a good candidate, and we could easily bring Jessica back into the plot.
Was hoping to maintain a lighthearted tone and not prickle. I appreciate it may have taken some processing and thank you for doing that.
I recognize just throwing a new NPC into the mix two years in and in mid game is a big ask and understand it might be hard to do or not be feasible. That's okay. I just figured better off asking than not saying something and continuing to feel disjointed. Thank you for even thinking about it. As a GM myself, I know what it feels like when a player throws you something from left field, and don't expect the impossible. At the same time, also as a GM myself, I want my players to tell me when they come up with ideas for new possibilities for roleplay, quests, and character goals. If you think I am out of line for how you prefer to run things, I hope you'll say so.
women from the Netflix shows don't necessarily seem sturdy enough to me to be a nemesis for Dottie
Please don't take this as my pushing for any particular character but I'm really surprised you have this view.
I'd say most of the Netflix women are pretty sturdy, emotionally if not physically. I'm more interested in someone who can mentally/verbally spar with Dottie than best her in a fight, per se. (I think one of the very most boring conversations comic book geeks repeatedly have is "who can beat who in a fight?" Who cares??? It's the personality fireworks that are interesting.)
Please understand, for example, that this is my favorite Dottie scene in Agent Carter (and those like it), not this. I mean, the latter is super fun, but look at the first one! The tension! The snark! The nth-level sass? The spies desperately trying to outmaneuver each other using words alone! The Insight and Perception checks being succeeded upon left and right! Gorgeous. (And the #Carterwood galore, but let's not go there.)
So yeah, I'm thinking a mental pairing, not a physical one.
Other Netflix women: Misty's tough as nails and as rogue cop would have an interesting view on Dottie and play a role in whether she should go free or be hunted down. I don't see Dottie having lengthy interaction with Colleen but I think Colleen could handle her (physically and mentally). Best option might be Mary Walker, who would be a fascinating foil--the flip sides of lighthearted Mary vs stonecold merc Walker could very much serve as a cracked mirror to Dottie, who while not living with Dissociative Identity Disorder, likewise compartmentalizes herself into perky next door neighbor Dottie and heart-of-ice Nameless Assassin (and my headcanon for this game at least is that Dottie, due to her own dissociative issues, doesn't actually remember her real name). Both have been broken by being prisoners of war, of a sort, in Eastern Europe. The challenge with Mary is of course the revelation there is the third "Bloody" personality out there, but then as that's likely a plot we will never see resolved in a show, it could also be a seed for a story. Who else... Nightshade? They're unlikely to connect, but Dottie could use some new poison lipstick. ;)
And of course Jessica is a survivor, broken but not held down, very much like Dottie. Dottie's experience of working with Dr. Fenhoff holds some parallels with Kilgrave (except of course Dottie was a willing murderer without needing to be mind controlled--why mind control when brainwashing is already in place?). I expect that the experiments Leviathan ran on Dottie were also very similar to what IHG put Jessica through (it's possible that the good doctor even started with research stolen from/sold from now-long-defunct Leviathan). Very different backgrounds and points of view but that just makes it better for interaction.
What else? Not Netflix, but Brigid O'Reilly/Mayhem from Cloak and Dagger could be very interesting--and importantly, could tie into Roxxon investigations which would also ease her into the plot. She was originally a cop in Harlem, she could return after things get hot in New Orleans, or show up in NYC to visit old friends (which incidentally includes Misty). She's another character that with the two sides could bounce off Dottie well.
Many of the adult women from the Runaways could have some interesting interactions, though they are all I think settled in LA for the foreseeable future and probably unreasonable to work in.
On the no list: I just don't like Elektra and I think she might be dead at the moment anyway. I don't see a lengthy interest on Dottie's part in Trish. Trish is too needy and desperate and would just copy off of Dottie's early vigilante look. ;) I'd also say no to Karen Page: while she'd be interesting to deal with Dottie (journalist pursuing the new Brooklyn vigilante), I feel like any relationship they might have might look like Karen's relationship with Punisher redux.
Dottie would run circles around Jeri, though that would be a fun scenario. Jeri seems tough but she's too needy deep down. But if she needed a criminal defense lawyer (a distinct possibility), Dottie would be all too happy to seduce a lonely, desperate, dying woman into being on her side. That might be too horrible perhaps, but certainly an interesting exploration of both characters as they are both sociopaths.
As for the broader MCU, I wouldn't want to touch the Black Widows either at least until the movie actually comes out (*grumbles at pandemic and yells at sea*). It takes place in 2017 so if it planted a seed, I expect it would be for a sequel game, and I've no idea if you've the energy for that (or I depending on when that might happen)). If we weren't bound by the movies, Recluse from the Black Widow comics could be a good enemy, but there would be no friend potential there, and they are not using Recluse in the BW movie. And the Falcon and the Winter Soldier has revealed we can't use Sharon Carter (who otherwise would have made a lot of sense and I'm sure Auntie Dottie at some point taught Sharon a couple of things) because in our timeline she's just arrived in Madripoor and setting herself up to take over. I think the SHIELD folks in this timeline were also on the run/not very public, sadly, although if you're talking about combat compatibility, Dottie vs Melinda May would be a sight to see. (I'm thinking Dottie loses, but barely.) Is Mockingbird rogue yet? She'd be interesting, and I adore Bobbi.
I am not sure gender-bent characters are necessary either. I mean, that's fine if you've got a specific idea you think would be great, but there are many comics women who deserve a chance in the spotlight. America Chavez? Jessica Drew? Various female mutants who could be Inhumans in this world--I'd steer away from the big X-folks like Storm or Rogue but there's plenty others. Probably a NuHuman or two I don't know well enough who might work. Being a DC girl for a much longer time than Marvel it's hard to come up with a list off the top of my head, and the ones I'm most familiar with (She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, Kate Bishop) are off the table because they have their own shows pending, or are too cosmic/elsewhere to work (Valkyrie, various other superheroes in Spaaaaace).
OCs could also make sense--an older woman Dottie worked with in SHIELD, an FBI agent hunting her down, a disgruntled ex-Roxxon employee who knows Dottie was framed and wants to help.
I am also not necessarily asking for a nemesis. Although Dottie's nature would be a push/pull scenario for most of the more heroic women. Nemesis can be fun, but I'm hoping for someone she can admire/respect and maybe befriend. The hard part with Dottie is they are all often the same thing. ;)
Thinking through it more, I'm wondering if any of the Marvel Netflix shows other than JJ pass the test.
Some do.
Other Marvel TV shows pass in spades: Cloak and Dagger, Runaways, Agents of SHIELD, and Agent Carter, and Wandavision generally have had many women having conversations with many other women about things other than men. Cloak and Dagger is probably the best example of what is possible even when you don't have a lot of female leads: male and female main character, yes, but if one were being typical to Marvel/what male comic book writers often do, it could have been possible to just have mainly male characters involved outside of Tandy. Still they did a great job of working in Brigid, the two women who do voodoo, Tandy's mom, the engineer's daughter (I'm sorry I can't remember their names), who all have prominent roles and many discussions with each other about things other than men. (I feel the the need to note that of course having a conversation about a man isn't a bad thing; it just doesn't pass the Bechdel Test.)
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier barely passes but it does with Sharon talking to Karli in the final episode. This is notable as I think it is the only Marvel film-based property that does NOT have female leads that passes the Bechdel Test (okay, not counting AOS or Agent Carter who are far more tangential to the films). Otherwise generally unless a Marvel film explicitly has a female lead (basically, Captain Marvel), it almost never passes, with the notable exception of Gamora and Nebula talking to each other in the second film (even then it only barely passes because they often are discussing Thanos). I am not sure Gamora or Nebula have any true conversation with Mantis; she is almost always talking to Drax. Ant-Man does not pass; Ant-Man and the Wasp just barely slides through with Hope and Janet's reunion (but to compare male-female duo adventures, Hope gets far fewer opportunities to interact with women than Tandy does) and maaybe Janet talking to Ghost. I am not sure if Black Panther passes; we have several prominent female characters but when they interact are they almost always talking about T'Challa or Killmonger? What's especially egregious is to the best of my memory, absolutely none of the Avengers movies pass. In particular, Natasha has barely ever had a conversation with a woman at all, and when she has one, it's about a male (the only example I can think of in an Avengers movie is talking about Clint's and his wife's newborn son to be with his wife). She has a scant few words with Wanda and Okoye in Infinity War that aren't quite enough to constitute a "conversation." The closest we get is in Endgame when Okoye, Carol, and Rhodey are reporting in to Natasha, and that doesn't count for passing the Bechdel Test because Rhodey is there and it's also not much of a "conversation." Natasha has been in seven films so far, but Black Widow will be the first movie we see where she gets to interact with other women at length. So Natasha only ever gets to be with other women after we know she's dead. I think that's super sad. (And I think Scarlett Johannsson has also implied it's been lonely for her IRL not having many female colleagues she could spend much time with at work.) Sisterhood is powerful and important, but we almost never see women in Marvel have relationships with each other the way we see important, powerful brotherly relationships between men (Steve and Bucky, Bucky and Sam, Steve and Sam, Tony and Happy, Thor and Loki, Thor and even a little bit with Bruce in Thor 3).
I'm sure I've said this before, but while what I see on Reddit and the internet in general is mourning over lost Daredevil and Luke Cage, what I'm most sad about in the death of Netflix Marvel is that we won't likely ever see a show with Misty and Colleen.
To be fair I definitely have seen others talk about What Might Have Been with a Daughters of the Dragon series. Not a large majority, but you are definitely not alone. I always feel like Daredevil is vastly overhyped (I think it's just sharpest in everyone's minds because it was the first, and because Kingpin was such a good villain); yes it does otherwise dominate the conversation. I've not seen a lot of people mourn Luke Cage, so I'm glad to hear some do miss it.
So much to respond to:
I don't think you are to blame for any prickling on my part. Your concerns/desires are entirely reasonable, I just like to think of myself as enlightened and maybe am not so much.
I don't think you are out of line at all. I was seeing this as the Dottie and Frank show, and not delving too deeply into NPC connections, mostly so as not to take away from the two of you, I think.
I'm not sure exactly what I meant by sturdy. I don't think I meant physically. I suspect at least Colleen and Trish would give Dottie her all in a fight, Colleen by means of her training and Trish through her enhancement.
I was thinking more psychologically. Dottie is supremely manipulative, and would crush, I think, someone like Trish or Karen. Jessica is full of enough snark and suspicion not so succumb easily. She is available as a sort of sideways ally, but of course she is researching a man, so that may not pass the test.
The Shadow Dragons picked up most of Madame Gao's gang in the wake of the Defenders series. This is set right after that, and was part of my thoughts on Negative's rise to power. He picked up the pieces in the aftermath of that defeat.
Gao would definitely be looking to get rid of Negative, so maybe that would be a good way to go.
Lot's more to respond to, but that is all I have time for tonight.
(Looks up from his Hulk vs Thing comic book in awe at this conversation)
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I'm just this mouthy because I haven't gotten to the comic shop in awhile. ;) Which reminds me, I got an errand to run...
Must admit during the pandemic online comic resources have become my FLCS. Probably read more in last 12 months than I have in last 12 years!
I have an awesome FLCS I try to support, but I only get to the store to pick up my subs.
Btw Frank I think we are waiting on a reply from you in the game thread.
Tumbler, on the subject of enlightenment, both my workplace and my religious community have been working on antiracism. Due to that work I definitely know the feeling of self reflecting and realizing maybe there is more work to be done. It's hard, but I hope to keep trying to face it.
I think Gao could fill in well as ally/enemy (it is indeed very Netflix to have one become one then the other). They aren't going to be friends.
I also like the prospect of engaging Jessica more and was even thinking if things went well, I could invest a point in a contact down the line--nothing deep, but just something like Connected for the occasional free investigate check. The point of course is not really to never discuss a man, but be open to more subjects as well. I honestly half-expected that if Jessica started researching someone at Roxxon and she'd discover Dottie's criminal case, activating potentially a complication or two. If they ended up able to discuss it without too much bloodshed, I was thinking the ensuing conversation could even resolve an incongruency in JJ between season 2 and 3. In S2, she is highly resistant to turning her mother over, for totally understandable reasons, but Jess also seemed to think the Raft itself was a fate worse than death. In S3 she seems to accept that the Raft is an appropriate place for Trish. Again the whole scenario is complicated because of personal attitudes, but her idea of whst the Raft is seems to change. Maybe someone who was imprisoned there told her what it was like and that it was more than survivable.
Absolutely none of this is to supersede Dottie's relationship with Frank; PCs come first.
I'm just this mouthy because I haven't gotten to the comic shop in awhile. ;) Which reminds me, I got an errand to run...
Don't apologize to me for your thoughts. Life is coming at me hard, so I don't have time to respond to all of that, but I'm always awed at your depth of MCU knowledge and by your passion. I'll remind you that I "stalked/followed" you for years on the boards to draw you into conversations just like this.
As for the game, again I'm never sure how meta to be and how much of my GM thoughts to telegraph. Based on where we are now, I'm wondering if the JJ investigation becomes important in resolving season 1 or rolls into season 2, but I can certainly see that working in somewhere.
Well, that's kind of you to say. :)
You only need be meta as you want but I will try not to meta-game no matter what.
Yes, I'm curious to see how the Jessica angle turns out. She should have some info soon so we link back up there.
I wish I was reading more comics. Somehow during the pandemic reading has just become exhausting to me. In the before times I read constantly, but now I just don't seem to have any energy for it.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. I will stop being childish and complaining now.
Uh...... So how 'bout dem Os? (This is Baltimorean for changing the subject)
Sorry for my absence folks - been immersed in an audit all week. Ops (my role) came through with flying colours today - so chilling tonight and will get back in the posting tomorrow.
Welcome back BD. Glad you got good results at work.
SuperT I hope your not posting for the last couple days is due to fruitful busy-ness and not because of any die-rolling-based whining on my part. Any kvetching I do is just friendly table pounding and not intended to be taken terribly seriously.
Sorry to take so long to reply to this. The last 10 days have been nuts. You both know that I'm a high school teacher. And maybe that I teach English and Theater, not sure about that part. So Wednesday the 19th I found out that the plan for sound for our outdoor graduation ceremony (which I wasn't involved with at all) went belly up, and I stepped into help out. That added about 20 hours to my work week that week, not to mention it was my own kid's graduation, with all of the social obligations that entails. On top of that, I had scheduled a musical for performances this week in hopes that we could get the cast vaccinated and perform without masks and also that restrictions would be loosened enough that we could have a good sized live audience.
All of that worked out beautifully, but if meant nonstop work this week on top of normal end of the school year fatigue on top of this being the hardest year of teaching ever. After a day of rest, I'm starting to feel like a human person again, though definitely a human person with some PTSD from this school year. Fear not, I'm getting help.
The die roller is certainly fickle, and in truth I should probably be handing out more Hero Points to compensate.
As for Hero Points, I would definitely save those for the Endgame, which this in not intended to be.
No worries ST - this year's thrown more curveballs and rankles that most of us could ever have predicted (Covid notwithstanding).
Glad you're coming out of the tunnel - take the time you need (and deserve) - my sister (and sister-in-law) are both teachers (also high school or our secondary level) so fully appreciate the unheralded heroics and headaches that go with the job.
I knew you taught theater; I didn't know English too. My dad used to teach English and Theater in middle schools, though switched to History when he moved to a high school. My sister's a drama major and I'm an English major. :)
Every teacher I know has been traumatized, in the full sense of that word, by the kind of work they've been pushed to do during the pandemic. Several I've been concerned about their having a real nervous breakdown or just burning out to a dangerous degree. Glad you're seeking aid on managing that. Also glad that some of the stuff you're doing was celebratory or "fun" (publicly) stuff that turned out well--even if also exhausting! The university division I work for still did an all-remote/digital convocation and I seriously missed working it, even though it's always an utterly chaotic and exhausting day (and I'm not involved in the planning which is its own marathon run by a few miracle worker staff and administrators).
And of course, on the matter of posting of games, please take your time. I've sometimes been pushing myself to post when my mental health is maybe not in the best place to do it and so from where I'm sitting I'd always prefer folks don't make the same mistakes I do. We'll be here when you're ready to carry on.
Regards our current scenario (and answering DQ's point of note) - Fighting Lou may well be a reluctant play. So is walking away and heading to the Old Man (although this risks testing the Maggia honour card that we should probably stick it out no matter how dumb/hopeless/etc/ect).
No way Frank wants to draw the ire of SHIELD/heroes and the like when he's trying to tread a better path (albeit one that's paved with Maggia gold)... Turning this into a bloodbath is a definitely not happening, but damage limitation and hard targeting makes sense to him.
This hero stuff isn't easy! :S
Definitely the chance to challenge some Complications and gain some Hero Points, here.
So... maybe we should consider switching to a proper bell curve and using 3d6? Just throwing that out there. It's a serious suggestion, but I don't strongly expect we are going to change the system at this point.
In other news, completely unrelated to this game, I was looking over old character stuff and I came across my Spirit of the Century character, which is done in the Fate system. Maybe I've even said this before, but I was thinking the Fate system is right up GMSuperTumbler's alley. It is a highly collaborative system that relies a great deal on storytelling and the players' ability and willingness to manipulate the scene as much as it does on the GM's. While there are standard skill checks and challenges that definitely call for die rolling, the core of the game is about being able to work with tropey features called "aspects," both traits specific to the characters as well as environmental/situational to a scene. GMs and players alike and use their aspects to positively or negatively influence a scenario; e.g., say my character has an aspect called "But I can't see without my glasses!" The GM may tap that aspect to place a temporary situational "glasses on the floor" aspect on me where I have literally dropped my glasses and can't see (which earns me a "fate point" in the way you'd earn a hero point for the GM's use of a complication in M&M), but I could also tap the same aspect to help me resist the effect of a gorgon's gaze--And things can build... my teammate might then tap the new "glasses on the floor" scene aspect as part of an effort to create a reflective light display that dazzles the enemy or whatever... it's all about creativity and how can you use what is at your disposal. If you've never looked at it, I highly recommend checking it out as it seems like a system you'd enjoy. On top of that it is not mechanically complex so it is very quick to learn... the hard part is really understanding as both a GM and player how much of the gameplay depends on being willing to be creative and dynamically interactive. There is a rapid "pick up and play" version called Fate Accelerated that is designed to get people started playing pretty much right away but the core system, at least in terms of understanding core mechanics, is a quick study. It's all an open license system with a fair amount of free content available in addition to the SRD I linked to above. (Addendum: in collecting the links to post here, I also noticed someone put together a toolkit for superhero adventures called "Venture City" although it is not free (it is $8 at DriveThruRPG). Looks like some other cool setting toolkits out there as well.
My experience with FATE is limited to a campaign here on the boards that pretty much made it through recruitment and character creation. We went down a hole, I think, and then the campaign died.
Also, I've read through the Dresden rules at some point. And I used some of the material from the Dresden books as flavor in a Mutants and Masterminds campaign. Probably worth another look.
As for 3d6, I'm willing to talk about it. My understanding is that it levels things out for the most part. Makes low numbers and high numbers rarer, which would make things less swingy. This page might be useful.
Yeah, I don't think it's too hard for a GM to run but both GM and players need to be really committed for FATE to happen. In PBP if either a player or GM flakes you're screwed very quickly. I played in an RL campaign that was sort of a "mega campaign" where there were about 15 of us and we would be rotated in and out of different combinations (simulating different pulp adventures starring different heroes). It fell apart for the reason most RL games do... no one could commit/find the same time everyone could play. The couple sessions I played in were awesome, especially once I grasped how aspects were really supposed to look. I was just thinking of you because I know how much you like storytelling in games.
Yes, the thing with 3d6 is you will roll average most of the time. It is less random. This means if there is a thing you are really good at, you will probably succeed most of the time. For a superhero game, which is at its root a power fantasy, this makes sense: Tony Stark shouldn't only have a 55% chance to do a cool thing with technology and Batman shouldn't struggle punching each and every mook. At the same time when extreme failures and successes occur they are that much more dramatic (and I might suggest that rolls of 3 1s or 3 6s automatically adds a degree of failure/success to emphasize its rareness).
I think the randomness of the d20 comes out more in M&M than in games like Pathfinder because the system works so hard to cap bonuses based on power level. It's hard to get high bonuses without a lot of tradeoffs. While this makes sense from a power building standpoint, the "5% chance to roll any given number" means Tony Stark is failing to fix a toaster oven 40% of the time even with a high bonus to Technology. Pathfinder comparatively is a game of bonuses; power players know the way to play is to make the die largely irrelevant and just stack bonuses so high you will probably succeed, but you can't get away with that in M&M. Which is weird because it means Merisiel is going to have a much easier time of sneaking and infiltrating than Black Widow.
The potential problem is while mook fights would go much faster (as they should), when you are dealing with bosses you could hit a situation where everybody is whiffing---boss has high defenses negating your high to-hit (or if you are a character who traded off to-hit for something else you're not hitting at all), your high defenses are negating boss' high to-hit. But then epic boss fights in comics also look like that--a lot of near misses or hits that seem to connect but the boss/hero shrug them off, until the one big victory blow. It makes buffs/debuffs more important.... there's an awesome scene in the old pre-New 52 Birds of Prey where Barbara "Oracle" Gordon kicks Joker's ass because she makes a targeted strike to his teeth--taking away the one thing he loves most in the world, his own smile. Once he loses that he isn't fighting as well. You could mechanically interpret this as a demoralize check that lowers his defenses before the final blow... (or she crits, but chose an alternate effect for the crit effect). Still it could make some major combats drag on.
It's something to think about. Sometimes the dice doing odd things to our expectations is good, but especially with the die roller ("Crankipator" as Lathiira calls it) being so random in its consistency to roll low (and then suddenly high) this doesn't feel like even a gritty street level superhero game. It feels like a dark and gritty episode of the Three Stooges.
I'll also note that my die roll luck is still my die roll luck no matter what system we are in. IIRC chances of rolling average (9-13) is quite high, like over 50%, but I played an entire 40K game once where I don't think any of my d6s rolled over a 2. The Sisters of Battle were not victorious that day.
Slammed at work folks, will likely be the morrows eve before my decks are cleared. Please bot as required :)
In the old 3d6 version that I linked above, on Luck rerolls they use 4d6 instead of 3d6. That seems like a good option for using Hero Points to re-roll. I think you would definitely want some special trigger on three 1s or three 6.