MNM Amazing Adventures (Inactive)

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As noted in the other game thread I am attending to some family concerns for the next several days. I know we're on pause but still wanted to check in.

I feel like flamethrower users standing on buses in Brooklyn has something to do with our antiheroes' shenanigans. ;)

This is the best thing that has happened to me today.

Is that an indicator of good or bad things in your life...?

Not a lot of joy lately, but the absurdity of that made me smile.

I'm sorry to hear of the low joy. These times we definitely need a bit of comedy, intentional or no, to help us keep going.

Any word from BD?

Haven't heard from him. I hope he makes it back, but i think I wouldn't be surprised if it is a few more weeks.

If you want to continue here we can, or I'm happy to wait.

I'd love to resolve this scene, but I don't want to jump too far ahead. What do you think?

Otherwise... my family has officially cancelled Christmas so I'm not going to be in the usual holiday crunch, so while I'm a little itchy for games to preoccupy me, I recognize my circumstances aren't the same as others--and I believe he is still planning to travel around the holiday. I'd say maybe we check in around the New Year and determine steps forward if we haven't heard from him by then.

We can keep going for a bit. Maybe I can think of something Dottie can tend to on her own after this and we can mess around until after New Years.

Apologies on the low profile folks - been highly busy with work and prepping for my yearly sojourn to Dubai for the festives (travel now involves far more working parts and monitoring of travel zones etc here in Bonnie Scotland).

Throw into the mix me turning 49+1 yesterday I've just not had time to try and recover my mojo.

Having Frank work more in the background for a while might be best for the storyline... I'm hopeful that the New Year will bring new sense of purpose and kick start my creativeness again.

Appreciate the patience and understanding from you both. Will check in afore the festives to wish ye all well :)

Happy birthday to you, Gary! Many happy returns. Be well and safe travels to you, and I look forward to your jumping back in when ready.

Thanks DQ - been peaks and troughs of late. Really burned out with work, but birthday and impeding travels has kept me buoyant.

Feeling good about the new year and batteries being recharged - like I touched on above, I appreciate the patience and understanding extended by both you and ST immensely.

No trouble at all. Quality is worth waiting for, whether it is good food, good drink, or good company.

I am watching Runaways, and Annie Wersching's (Leslie Dean) physical resemblance to Bridget Regan (Dottie) is uncanny. She's also playing an oddly sympathetic sociopath so I find it really distracting.

Good series in general. Really wasn't expecting much from it, and the teen angst can get to be a bit much (but what else can you expect from a show about teenagers?), but I find it's really high quality. Apart from Inhumans, once I finish with this I'll have seen all "original" Marvel TV. I am going to miss it incredibly. Ultimately, while I have enjoyed the movies, I have gotten much more personally out of the TV shows, and the "new" TV shows that are based on a bunch of the movie characters I just don't a f*@# about even if I tried, I have a feeling my active MCU fandom will be going into stasis.

(Exception to prove the rule: Wandavision does look interesting just because it looks so different, but they are not so far characters I am deeply interested in. Of movie characters I am invested in, the Winter Soldier, Falcon, and Hawkeye are near the very bottom of the list (actual bottom is Thor); the only reason I might consider watching WS+F is because Sharon Carter is in it, but I'm not really interested in watching her show up to be underused and sidelined and play second fiddle as Feige has done to her constantly.) Anyway, I'm not excited for these shows like I was for the Netflix series and Agent Carter. I will be surprised if Marvel comes up with something that brings that kind of excitement back.

I'm invested in Wanda and Vision, but I think that is more about the characters from my childhood more than what we see in the movie. Still, both actors there are great, so I'm excited to see where that goes.

I'm excited about She-Hulk. Always loved her and I'm excited to see where they take it. I'm hoping that it is genre bent to be as much a legal show as a Hulk show. And while Renner's Hawkeye hasn't done much for me, I am a fan of comic Kate Bishop, and of Hailee Steinfeld, so I'm excited about those.

Moviewise, I'm excited about Dr. Strange and Wanda, and about Spiderman, though I'm less excited about all the news of the Spiderverse intruding into Spiderman 3. I would have preferred seeing this Spidey come into his own in a third movie, out from under the thumb of Stark and SHIELD, and then gone into Spiderverse after that.

I guess overall I'm just a fanboy, and even though Endgame failed to earn the payoff of some of the stories (we've discussed all of that, I think), I'm still interested in what is coming.

Nothing wrong with still enjoying what's coming! I wish I looked forward to more.

She-Hulk coming down the pike is exciting, which I'd forgotten, so thanks for that. Still that's at least two years away, possibly longer due to COVID delays on filming. If they wrote it to be akin to Charles Soule's take on her a few years back (where she was a freelance lawyer helping supers deal with cases) that would be awesome. Sadly since both the character is so different and in the Raft, Patsy Walker won't be around to help her out. (Although a cool plot would be Jennifer trying to assure legal rights to the Raft prisoners--who I believe get very little due process or protections--and she befriends Trish.)

Ms. Marvel I am excited about too but again it's still just in the making, so it's so far away it just doesn't feel real yet.

I love the Hawkeye comics and both characters in the comics, but Renner combined with the way Clint is written in the live action stuff, I struggle to be able to want to watch him, even if Kate will also be introduced. It can't be the same dynamic, and given the way most film interactions between male Avengers and female characters are written, they will probably set it up to have Kate be Clint's emotional crutch while he mopes over Natasha and/or whatever bad thing happens to his family that is the likely impetus for whatever happens in the series. (And of course what is delightful about the comic version is that Kate is the person who refuses to be anyone's crutch, let alone allow Clint to mope, but Clint is a less maudlin and one-note character in the comics.)

There's also one specific episode of What If? I am looking forward to, of course.

I am just not interested at all in Spider-Man. This is entirely irrational, but if he hadn't been in Civil War, Sharon Carter would have had a real role and Emily Van Camp wouldn't have been f$+&ed over, and the movie may have actually been a real Captain America movie rather than an Avengers-In-Disguise movie, so every time I see him I just get mad. The Marvel execs and directors proved with that movie they were more interested in being fanboys and providing fan-service than telling a good story or caring for people they had made promises to. Beyond that, I'm tired of Spider-Man after the constant rebooting (although against my will I loved the animated multiverse movie). I loved Spider-Man as a kid but I just feel nothing for him now.

I'm intrigued by the ideas that may be introduced in Dr. Strange but I have never liked the character, comic or film. He's just Tony Stark but magic and less likeable due to fewer humanizing flaws/traits. Also I think Benedict Cumberbatch is overrated. I may watch the movie but it will be for everything but Doctor Strange himself.

Only movie I can think of that I really want to see is Captain Marvel 2--I love Carol so much and they did such a good job with her in the first movie--and I have no idea when that will happen. Well and Black Widow but given we were supposed to see that six months ago that my anticipation has turned into exhaustion on that one. I don't think the movie will do well, because you just can't hold onto the hype that long. (And obviously the circumstances for the delay have nothing to do with Marvel on that.) I know a lot of folks are jazzed with the idea that most likely that Yelena will become the new Black Widow but, much as I am amazed by Florence Pugh's talents, I can't imagine Yelena-as-Black-Widow being anything but what she was in the comics: Discount-Natasha. And I'm just not interested in the Dollar Store Knockoff version of Black Widow. At least they get rid of the stupid halter top. (The reason I love Dottie so much is because she is so decidedly different from Natasha while coming from a similar background. I hope the movie will surprise me, but my limited exposure to comic Yelena seemed to give her little personality of her own.)

I really, really, really wish I was excited and still felt my fan-buzz when I think about Marvel (live action) anymore but I just don't. And that's okay. And maybe in a couple years when Jennifer and Kamala show up my excitement will be revived. In the meantime there are other things to enjoy.

Still need to finish up Runaways. S3 isn't as good---after establishing a slightly better/more rooted in reality representation of Wicca, we get Sexy-Witches-in-Nightgown-Covens with Morgan Le Fay? It's hard not to laugh at those scenes; they look like they are coming out of Charmed (the old version) rather than the show we are watching--or about to break into a Medieval Baebes performance (although that would be an improvement). But love the stuff they're doing with Nico, who is one of their strongest characters, and I just saw the Cloak and Dagger cameo episode; it was awesome to see Ty and Tandy again. Though they hinted to another teamup that we know will never come... *sigh* No, trying to actually end this on a good note. I'm thinking of piling up some good Christmas movies to watch since I'll be alone this year. I'm thinking Moonstruck and When Harry Met Sally for classic comedies from my youth. Recommendations are welcome. And I will of course be seeing Wonder Woman 1984.... *squee*!!!

I love that you have beef with Spiderman over Civil War and the IRL production issues. Ironically, I'm sort of in the opposite camp. I wasn't a huge spider-fan as a kid, and while the Tobey films were fine, they didn't jazz me all that much. I found the Garfield movies not that interesting, though I liked both Garfield and Stone in those roles, the plots of the movies didn't really engage me. You know that I have two teenage daughters, and they are both in love with Tom Holland, so I can't get away from Tom Holland Spider Man. I do think he is the best of the 3 in the role. I'm sad that they seem to be going to the Spider-verse. I wish they had given him a third movie with Kraven hunting him or something, and then done a Spider-Verse as a 4th film. I do think Emma Stone might make a good Spider-Gwen, so that could work out.

I don't have much hope for another Black Widow.

How would you feel about replacing Patsy in that arc with Matt Murdock/Daredevil?

I think that it would be awesome if they used the She-Hulk series to at least bring Patsy, Jessica, and Matt into what seems to be the "real" MCU. They could easily create a separate Powerman and Ironfist series that would soft reboot/move forward those characters.

And of course, all I really want, and what is most unlikely of all, is a Daughters of the Dragon series.

I would sacrifice most of my action figure collection and several dozen batches of homemade cookies for a Daughters of the Dragon series. Including my lifesize cardboard cutout of Natasha from Age of Ultron, and the ginger-chocolate crinkles.

In fairness: you are right about Tom Holland being very good in the Spider-Man role. Intellectually, I can absolutely see he performs the character well, and the character was written well (I also saw and enjoyed Homecoming when it came out; but by the time Far from Home was out I was just done). But if I think about the prospects of another story with Spider-Man in it coming out, my emotional reaction is the sensation of a yawning (interpret this word either way) black hole in my chest. I just feel no investment or attachment whatsover. It's like a Spider-Man induced, Marvel-specific depression. Or perhaps an Endgame-induced one.

Current fan theory is Yelena will get the Black Widow mantle and be in a Thunderbolts movie or series headed by Ross. This may also bring in a return from Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp.

Re: replacing Patsy with Matt: I would definitely like to see Matt in the She-Hulk series but I don't think the character would work for the role Patsy played, as somewhat happy-go-lucky adventuring foil to/employee of She-Hulk (also a generally happy-go-lucky character, but she had to be The Responsible One as she was running the business). Someone with a sense of fun needs to be in that role, even if they also come from a traumatic background (and comics Patsy, while lighter hearted than MCU Trish, still has literally a Hellish backstory). "Sense of fun" is not a trait I associate with Matt.

This said if they had a plot where Jennifer and Matt become partners (as in law partners) because Foggy is working for the firm that Jeri used to be part of that I'm blanking on the name of, that could definitely be fun and interesting. What does a hulk-out heartbeat sound like to Daredevil?

For other MCU Netflix character who could play a role as a private investigator who works for Jennifer (which is what Patsy was doing), Misty Knight comes to mind. Definitely has a hard edge but also has a sense of humor and might bounce off Jennifer well. Jessica Jones like Matt is too dark and grumpy (although I'd also pay in action figures and cookies for the Matt + Jessica investigation team that the Defenders showed would be amazing and that we will never, ever get). While I'm sitting on Santa's lap I'll also ask for a Jessica Jones cameo in Captain Marvel 2.

Since you said in another game that you are wanting a break, I'm going to not push forward with this until after the Christmas at least.

I think you could make a fun odd couple with Matt as the serious/moody one and Jenn as the more impetuous one. That would be a different role for Matt; he would be taking on more of a pragmatic Froggy position in that case. I'm not sure what there plans are for She-Hulk, like if she is going to be stuck in that form as is often the case. I'm sure they won't go this direction, but I can imagine a fun set up where Matt and Jenn are partners and don't know the other is a hero and they figure it out.

I love Misty Knight. That actress has a steady TV gig now on a show that doesn't interest me at all, so that likely rules her out from Disney+ or Hulu series.

I wish we could get more Jessica in any way, but that seems unlikely.

I mainly need a GMing break, but after Christmas is also fine with me. Lots of stuff happening IRL that I am just exhausted.

I am glad Simone Missick is gainfully employed, even if that might mean not seeing Missy--she is very good.

She-Hulk's form status has varied, but most recently, apart from a now-resolved storyline where she was, due to psychological distress, shifting more like a "normal" hulk (from smart and human to angry and hulk smashy), she usually voluntarily stays in She Hulk form, shifting only to human form when being giant and green is inconvenient.

I expect given her show will be an origin story for her, gaining control over the form will be part of the plot. So she probably will be changing back and forth at first.

I was going to post in the Wonder Woman thread in movies, but then I decided I just didn't want to bother with those folks. I find myself emotionally exhausted, and wanting to be among friends. I see that you really enjoyed the movie, DQ, and that makes me happy. I'll continue to follow that thread, so don't fee like you have to repeat anything from there.

As a reminder, I have a wife and two daughters (17 and 14). My wife is at best a casual fan of anything (I was going to say anything nerdy, but really it is anything) but she has a childhood love of Linda Carter's Wonder Woman. My oldest loves pretty much everything that isn't a horror movie, and my youngest is more akin to us, addicts of narrative, fanboys/girls of various franchises. She is ultimately more into Supergirl and Harley than Wonder Woman, but she has watched every animated WW movie and read most of my comics, so she is still pretty into the whole scene.

The amazing news is that the three of them conspired to give me a private screening of the movie at a cinema!

I love going to the movies, and it something we often do as a family. I can't remember what the last movie was that I saw in theaters sometime in February, but this is certainly the longest time since 1977 that I have not been in a movie theater. We invited a few friends, and sat with 12 people in a theater that would have held 100 or more. We were all quite distanced, but we ate movie concessions and watched the movie on a big screen (a pretty small cinema screen, but bigger than the 42 inch I've been watching, lol).

So the movie could have been almost anything, and I would have loved it. There were even a few times during the screening when I completely forgot the strangeness of the situation.

So, while I have some quibbles with the movie, I'll just note some things I loved. I loved that Gal was wearing an adaptation of the white blouse and black and white jacket we saw many times on the old show. I loved the relationship between Steve and Diana. That felt really real, and the fact that he was able to express so much depth in the role made her feelings feel real and not just like "movie love." I loved the complexity of Max Lord. I feel like something was cut in explaining his motivation toward the end. The stone/god of deception took over, I think, but that wasn't quite explicit. Still, Max achieved a level of believability that most superhero movie villains do not.

I loved Gal. She looked great, she held her own as the character, I believed both her strength and her vulnerability.

I loved that Barbara Minerva had a character arc, that I really cared about her, that there was some pathos there that I connected with.

The only complaint I'll say is that I wish Cheetah had had a chance to really kick ass in her final form. I'm not sure how I would include this, but I would have liked to see her be awesome before we saw Diana beat her.

And just to be clear, I've been telling them for at least a month that I was looking forward to WW84 on HBOMax more than I was looking forward to Christmas. The movie did not let me down.

I totally hear you on misgivings about the official thread. I'm all for some civil debate and disagreement, but get tired of people just showing up to be negative for the seeming sake of negativity. It seems very much the "in thing" for geeks on the Internet to hate fandom movies vociferously just for the sake of hating them. (Mind, no one was being terribly egregious there, but I can guess who is watching the thread and waiting for the right opportunity to let loose.) I was trying to follow along the WW84 Watch Party on Twitter yesterday--Patty Jenkins and Gal Gadot were live tweeting while watching the movie, sort of like a "DVD commentary" but on social media. There were around three dudes posting a reply to every one of Patty Jenkins' posts about how much the movie sucked, I can only assume in hopes of triggering a reply from anyone. Look, that movie was not for everyone, but several dudes just spent literally two hours of their life spamming every tweet from someone with the same reply about how much they didn't like something. That's just sad. They could've spent those two hours watching a movie they did like. Or playing a game with their family. Or eating a box of Christmas cookies. Man. What is wrong with people that they actively choose to be miserable and spread misery over anything else?

</rant>

Anyway:

So awesome of your family to give you that treat! I of course couldn't wait so watched it on HBO Max (where I am now binging the Lynda Carter series which is also on there, since my new DVD player is still in shipping somewhere). But coincidentally also about a dozen of my friends privately booked a theater New Year's Day to watch it on the big screen together. We'll go masked and stay well apart from each other; it should work out well.

As you know I really enjoyed it and think it was a lot of fun. They did a decent job of weaving all the threads together--it could have been much messier with two villains. It is a shockingly different tone than the first movie--which I am fine with. I think it's probably shaken some viewers' expectations. The first is a serious film that is a war movie that stars a superheroine and gets a weird big bad ending tacked onto it. The second movie is much more of a fan's love letter, joyously more campy, while also still holding onto some serious themes underneath it all. Jenkins noted she both wanted to nod to the Richard Donner Superman films (which of course were of the mid 80s) in the look and feel and to the 70s TV series (which I adore but is uber campy and not often well written, frankly). I liked the shift, I can understand some might not. I vastly preferred this ending, with Diana winning a battle exactly as she should: with the truth and appealing to the hearts and minds of the people.

I feel like the one big flaw in the film--which I feel safer talking about with you than in the movie thread--was they were actually too subtle building up both Diana's deal and Max Lord's, and to a lesser extent (but much less so) Barbara's. I can tell Jenkins is very much a show-not-tell storyteller and doesn't want clunky exposition clogging up the script and action. I respect that, but I think she overdid it; there were themes/character arcs she pointed out in interviews and in the livetweet that weren't clear enough in the final product. For example, I really had trouble understanding/following Diana's inability to let go of her loss 60 years in the future--that is a long damn time to be mourning a guy you knew for a couple months at most. ((My mom was my dad's love of his life and she died 29 years into their marriage; he still remarried only a few years later and I think that was a healthy thing to do.)) Then Jenkins points out what isn't clear: Diana's deal isn't just mourning Steve--it's that being immortal, she has watched all of her old friends grow old and die without her, so she has stopped trying to get close to people. This suddenly makes so much sense. I can see that part of her missing Steve is also not wanting to let go of the time when she was innocent of such loss. And knowing this makes her character arc a lot more sensible and understandable. But this fact is only really touched upon in the scene where we see the photographs in her apartment: in each picture, it is with her and her WWI buddies, each time one person is missing, until the last photo where it's just Diana and old lady Etta. The pictures weren't clear enough to pick up on that (I only understood it after Jenkins tweeted about it). I caught the picture of her and Etta but the others just looked like generic photos and it was hard to make people out. I really wish there had been some dialogue from Diana where she expresses this to someone--ideally, Barbara, when Diana is telling her that Barbara is guessing her life all wrong. "It's a long story, but I've lost a lot of close friends over the years. So no, I don't get out. I've been too afraid to. But really I'm glad you asked me to lunch today." Something like that. It doesn't have to be terribly anvilicious, just something that both establishes where Diana's head is at AND cements why her newfound friendship with Barbara is special and important (which I think the movie also failed to deliver--Diana is often very aloof or bossy toward Barbara and it's hard to actually see why Barbara took a shine to her apart from that one act of kindness at the beginning). Alternately Diana expressing something similar to Steve about how much she is so afraid of more loss in general would have been good for her character. We also needed to get a better tie in from the opening scene. The lesson of it, obviously, is that Diana's main flaw is she spends too much time looking back (literally in the case of young Diana). But that moment needed to be repeated later in the movie to remind the audience of its meaning.

Max too--one of the issues is that his health is failing, but it's unclear what exactly is wrong with him. On first viewing I thought it was his cost of using the stone, he was losing his health in exchange for the stone's power. But rewatching the beginning during the livetweet, he is having headaches and calling for vitamins before he gets the power (that or he has given himself hypervitaminosis from taking all those vitamins). Which also means at the end, he is still (terminally?) ill when all returns to the status quo, and it never gets addressed. Seems like we needed a little more explanation there--an easy spot would have been when Max had flashbacks on his life. Just show a shot of him at the Doctor's office getting bad news.

Barbara was much better handled--we see how she is treated, what her life is like. The one thing is I wanted a better bond formed between her and Diana before things started changing. If I could rewrite one scene it would have been the dinner they have together; the dialogue did nothing for the development there and the scene relied on the actresses' chemistry to work.

So that's my narrative nitpick--just wanted to get that off my chest.

Everything else I really enjoyed. I get what you are saying about seeing more of Cheetah's full power, and I think you have a point, though I liked what they did with their battle. Loved the "final battle." Loved Steve's role, and I generally hate Steve Trevor. I mean just universally all of the Steve Trevors who have ever been, I just generally find useless and boring. But Chris Pine's Steve Trevor is at least a level 12 Steve Trevor and he got a feat of "not be entirely useless" at his level, which I appreciate. I also really liked the narrative turnaround where in the first movie, he was the one saying "Diana, you can't do this, you can't save those people," and she's like "watch me," and in this movie he's saying, "Diana, you have to save these people," and she is attempting to refuse the call in response.

And oh the end credits scene. So happy. So, so, so, so happy. ^_^ With that one moment, with that iconic smile, all flaws are forgiven.

In other news, am updating Dottie's character sheet with her rebuild soon. Tweaking the layout.

I sat through an entire cheesy Hallmark Christmas movie earlier this week because Bridget Regan was the star. Just because I miss Dottie's face. (And Bridget Regan's.) The sad things I do alone on Christmas break.... :)

I love the final battle not being a battle. In my house, we call that a "Supergirl Ending." Our own name for the trope of the compassionate hero talking the villain into a peaceful solution, based on the CW series.

I'm going to watch again (probably Tuesday) before I respond to most of that, but I'm curious what you think about a complaint I'm seeing about the body Steve inhabits and consent. To me it felt like a very 80s sort of thing. In fact, I felt like the way Steve reacted to the 80s had a lot of Mannequin references, which is a somewhat obscure movie to reference.

Well, Wonder Woman and the Bionic Woman did it first on TV in the 1970s, but I'll forgive your daughters for not being of my generation to make the reference. ;) And yes, I like that they characterize Supergirl TV similarly.

Yeah, I can see Steve's interaction with the world of the 80s to be reminiscent of Mannequin and also Splash. :) (I loved both movies as a kid and would likely be creeped out by both now.)

Gah, I didn't want to think about this for entirely selfish reasons. But yes, there is definitely a dubious consent problem with the body Steve inhabits (played by an actor they cast because of his general similar looks to Lyle Waggoner btw). It is not a cut and dried issue (how do you account for consent issues in a world of demigods and wish stones?), and yeah, if it happened in an actual 80s movie no one would blink at it. It is, however, a movie from 2020 and it is frustrating there is no bit of dialogue that at least touches upon it. There are kind of two issues here: (1) Steve controlling this other man's body like a puppet (and he seems to show no concern for this guy and what will happen to him and his life), and takes tremendous risks in his body such that if he got himself killed, two people would be dead; (2) Diana and Steve sleeping together in his body. This is, technically, rape, and on the part of both Steve and Diana: they both used another man's body for sexual pleasure while he was unable to consent to it. The fact that this does not occur to Diana or Steve (or the writers, which includes Patty Jenkins) and they do not even think about it as possibly problematic is troubling. Is it the same as, say, Diana grabbing a random man and forcing him to have sex with her? No. But if Not-Lyle learned that this is what happened to him during his blackout period, how would he feel about it? It's possible he might respond by saying, "heck yeah, I banged Wonder Woman!" Or it's possible he would feel deeply violated and frightened. It's possible he might feel both at the same time.

I admit to shoving aside concerns over this as frankly not wanting to think about it in a movie that was otherwise fine (but in the post-sex scene my immediate action was "ew!" for both the consent reasons and also for either of them not knowing where this guy's dick has been). In a movie I otherwise enjoyed, I sort of admittedly want to handwave it as "well maybe it was the dude's wish to fall into a situation where he would be f&%$ed by a demigoddess", but it is a legit issue with the script. I am even more concerned about general callous disregard toward the man's fate in general. Steve talks about this man, has figured a little about who he is, but neither he nor Diana question--does he have family? Friends? A significant other? Someone who misses him? Did Steve's using his body for several days result in him not showing up to work, losing his job. I can understand Diana's unwillingness to let go of Steve, but I am also surprised that in arguing for Diana releasing him, he also mentions that he has hijacked another man's life--as long as Steve "lives," this guy is effectively killed by Diana. I like that we do see Not-Lyle at the end, and that he is fine, and wearing his sexy 80s man outfit and looking like he is on his way to something important. I like to think that maybe Diana was in his vicinity to check up on him, make sure he survived everything okay.

(There is also a legit question of: why have Steve possess another man at all? Clearly the stone can create things out of thin air, like the wall in the Middle East. So why not just give him a new body?)

But is it problematic? Yeah. Should it have been handled better? Yes. Do I make the movie better in my head by pretending that Steve and Diana just cuddled in bed together with very little clothes on, and/or that Not-Lyle wanted to take a body vacation and was okay with all that happened? Yes. Is it annoying that online trolls who definitely do not care about ending rape culture are disingenuously using the scene as an excuse to deride the movie, thus making it nearly impossible to discuss the legit problems with the scene in a productive way? Yes. Should they try to do better next time, maybe by getting someone like Gail Simone to help with the script rather than Geoff Johns and Some Dude? F$#& yes.

"he also mentions that he has hijacked another man's life.."

That should say "he doesn't mention..."

I did the same thing. Watching the movie, I just went with it. I thought the guy bore a resemblance to and was styled to resemble Lyle Waggoner, and I guess that made me think they belonged together. Probably in 2020 I'm too forgiving, and they should have done better. I was surprised in that last scene when he didn't seem to respond to her very much.

I've shown the girls the 70s show, but of course they see it only as camp, and not properly as the deadly serious show that I knew it to be as a young lad. Ironic, since they take Supergirl very seriously, and I see only the camp.

They have not seen the Bionic Woman, I haven't watched that or 6 million dollar man in ages, though obviously I was obsessed with it as a kid. Maybe that would be a good marathon to kill off 2020 and launch 2021.

Conversations like this are really making me feel old, but maybe I should just go ahead and lean into that.

I love 70s WW but it is heavily campy, I won't deny that. It has some good moments but is generally high on the silly and the over-acting. I would agree Supergirl is also campy... it's best episodes are much better written, but its worst episodes.... well, I'd rather watch Wonder Woman fight Formicida the Ant Queen.

Much as the child within does not want to admit it, the Bionic Woman overall is a much better show. You still have to accept some silly, badly realized sci-fi concepts sometimes, and there are specific episodes that are ridiculous--especially in the third season when a both a network change and a writer's strike dramatically affected the quality of the work (the episode where Jaime is hypnotized by brainwashing shampoo comes to mind). There is the general vibe of "70s action series" with lots of wa-wa pedal soundtrack and mustache-twirling villains. But its best episodes are absolutely riveting, emotional stuff--the material was good enough and Lindsay Wagner was good enough to perform said material that she won an Emmy for it: the first "Best Actress" Emmy someone won for starring in a sci-fi series, IIRC. (Sadly, I can't imagine Wonder Woman being nominated for an Emmy.) I think one of the things that helps the show is how very human Jaime is... and when they establish she suffered brain damage after her initial operation, they actually use this well in several episodes (she can get emotionally unstable)--it is a continuity that is established that isn't forgotten as it would be in many series of the era. And at the same time, it is ultimately established as one of Jaime's strengths--she uses what she goes through to help empathize with others and stay true to herself.

I can't guarantee your kids would like it any better than they would Wonder Woman given they are likely to hone in on its special effects flaws and the like, but it is higher quality television, and if they like heroines who try to talk down the enemy before fighting them, Jaime is right up their alley.

PS: For fun, you can if you wish, evaluate Jaime's attempt to become a Nashville star versus Diana Prince's foray into becoming a pop recording star. (Both of these involved undercover missions where someone was concealing encoded messages on records. I'm pretty sure the shows stole ideas from each other all the time. Though in the latter case, the show was also doing Lynda Carter a favor highlighting songs from her recently released album "Portrait.")

PPS: Look I figure we are doing the virtual equivalent of pulling up a rocking chair at the old folks' home and reminiscing already, so may as well just enjoy it. :)

I saw WW84 again at our private watch party in the theater. Movie looks much better on the big screen (and I thought it looked fine on my laptop, but a lot more pops out and looks cooler).

I was wrong: Max's health was not failing before he made his wish. It was the price of his use of the stone. In fact, it made more sense this time around--the reason he "needed more" and wanted to do the great wish broadcast was so he could take enough health to counteract his own cost.

I was also wrong--dialogue anvils were dropped in the opening sequence; Antiope has the "nothing is born from lies" line that gets repeated later. I had completely forgotten about it on first viewing and had only remembered the visuals.

Rocking chair engaged!

I need to watch WW 1984 again, which I hope to do this weekend. I've only seen it in that theater experience, and honestly I got a big bucket of popcorn and turned my brain off and just enjoyed the movie.

I liked the fact that Diana was sort of powered down from her Justice League and BvS appearances. She was like a really awesome version of the tv Wonder Woman, especially in the scene with the armored convoy.

Inspired by your words (and lacking new Supergirl episodes), two of us have undertaken a television challenge. My oldest is slightly not enough of a sci-fi nerd to engage in this quest, but my youngest (14 and a freshman in high school) has taken it on with me to watch 6 Million Dollar Man, Bionic Woman, and Linda Carter's Wonder Woman. So far we have watched the first three episodes of all three shows.

I'm actually surprised at how good the writing is for 6 Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman in the first episodes of each. Lots of pathos and slow going. We are watching them on the NBC app, so they have modern commercials. I wish they had the original commercials. There is some whiplash between eras.

You want to get this thing moving again? I do hope BD returns, but we can move forward if you want.

Happy New Year both, am back and just getting the decks cleared at work.

Hoping to get back into my games this weekend, so will take a few days to catch up in the various posts, and action any rebuilds and character tweaks necessary.

Hope your both healthy, safe and well.

Good to see you online BD. And yes, let's get moving.

So finally my character sheet is updated to the new version. Let me know if you see anything incongruous.

BD please feel no pressure by my updating, I'm just finding ways to distract myself.

ST, How goes the Bionic Watch? Yes, lots of pathos especially in those early episodes when they are coping with the transition.

We are not watching the two series in order, by which I mean we didn't wait until the appropriate time in Six Million Dollar Man to start Bionic Woman, and we aren't pacing the episodes in any way that makes sense. We've watched about 7 episodes of each.

I'll reassert that I'm surprised by the depth of both series. I'm not sure I've watched either of them since they were syndicated in the early 80's. My memories from that time are more focused on the adventure/action elements, but there is a fair amount of emotional struggle and some political commentary. I wonder if I'm just remembering later seasons and maybe they get less serious.

Reconstruction of the constrictor is underway, so bear with. Will keep things rolling regardless, as its unlikely version 2.0 will change massively.

I'm gonna laugh if they just end up at a totally normal party that has nothing to do with anything. :)

Re: Bionic Shows:

I admit I haven't seen any Six Mill in a long time. Call me sexist, but I never liked him as much, or the general strong-jawed stoic 70s womanizing hero type in general. But I know they addressed a lot of deep issues and did it well, and this carried over into Bionic Woman, where they also built on this and with a lot of humanity.

They also both have their silly episodes and as I mentioned there's a period especially in Bionic Woman Season 3 which dips dramatically because of a writer's strike. The showrunners I think also, while unafraid to deal with serious issues, also tried not to take themselves too seriously and would just have fun with some of the storylines that they did. There's also some script recycling... there's a Six Mill story involving a plane crash that was almost completely copied for a Bionic Woman story. Then there's the infamous Bigfoot episodes... honestly not as bad as many joke about them as, but it dives into some cheesy sci fi elements I don't think really belonged in the series which was mostly grounded with higher tech wizardry (the occasional dives into magic or aliens never worked well, and I expect the alien episodes were reactive to the popularity of Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica).

Looks like those big foot episodes originally aired in 76, so I can't possibly have seen them when they aired. But I can remember seeing them and how incredibly excited and intrigued I was by the whole thing. Can't wait to get to them in this rewatch and see how ridiculous they are.

It occurs to me to warn you there are some crossover episodes between the two so you might get some confusing continuity if you're watching both concurrently. (If you hit an episode of Six Mill called Kill Oscar Part II, stop, and wait till you get to the Bionic Woman to get part I and III or it will make no sense).

Absolute best season of BW I think is two. Some really intense stuff there, even amid some camp. Just watched an episode I remembered as "lighter" and it still hit me in the feels (Iron Ships and Dead Men).

Apropos of nothing, got a new blu-ray/DVD player so watched some old Bionic Woman eps. Had this odd insight (pun intended) that in a very general, over-arching sense, some of the key plot points of "Fembots in Las Vegas" are similar to Captain America and the Winter Soldier. It's not deeply similar of course, but the MacGuffin is basically Project Insight. I find I prefer Jaime to Steve Rogers, or to any hero named Steve, really, however.

I am able to love Jamie and Steve both.

Austin or Rogers? (Or Trevor? It seems like if you are a Steve in an action series you need to be in a plane crash at some point.)

I like all of the Steves to some degree, I just like Jaime more. She is more readily willing to be flawed and human, and is thus the bravest and the kindest.

MCU Steve Rogers I adored in the first three films he appeared in, but they stopped giving him any character development around Age of Ultron, and I got irritated with his inability to have any character growth whatsoever. Moreover, he got stuck at "stubborn and doesn't know how to grieve and believes he is the only person in the world with feelings or morals that matter" rather than at other, better aspects of his personality. That's not the character's fault more than it is the filmmakers'. I am not a huge comics Steve reader but what I have seen of him I like.

It is weird though the more I think about it, comparing Captain America and the Bionic Woman: both blonde, blue-eyed, Chaotic Good individuals who were transformed from general physical incapability to superhumans by their government, who reluctantly serve those powers in order to do good, and who were frozen for a period of time, one of the results of which was effectively losing the love of their life.

I'd love Jaime Sommers to be Steve Rogers' therapist.

MCU Steve Rogers I adored in the first three films he appeared in, but they stopped giving him any character development around Age of Ultron, and I got irritated with his inability to have any character growth whatsoever. Moreover, he got stuck at "stubborn and doesn't know how to grieve and believes he is the only person in the world with feelings or morals that matter" rather than at other, better aspects of his personality. That's not the character's fault more than it is the filmmakers'. I am not a huge comics Steve reader but what I have seen of him I like.

Ironically the films pretty much chart his treatment in the comics too. In his own book Steve's always been much more interesting, while in the slew of Avengers books et al. he's mostly written as a superpatrotic stereotype and "living legend".

Hated pretty much all the Avengers movies to be honest, despite being a huge Avengers reader in my younger days. The hype never matched the halcyon hopes... Hulk and Thor were similar casualties to my high bar (don't get me started...) Cap movies I also loved though - had more depth, atmosphere and relevance than the others (bar perhaps the 1st Iron Man).

I liked the first Avengers--there are nits to pick with it, but it's overall a decent adventure film, and I liked Cap in it; he had a nice personality and we got to see him dealing a bit with entering the modern age. When I said "first three films" I meant The First Avenger, The Avengers, and Winter Soldier. Civil War was a movie that I enjoyed the ride while I was on it, but to carry the metaphor, got very sick afterward. I.e. so much happens in Civil War that when you're watching it's just kind of an adrenaline rush to keep up and watch it unfold, but later when you stop and think about, nothing makes sense, the villain plot is a clusterf~%$, and Steve comes off like a total jerk, and everything has just been a setup for the next several movies rather than be a good story in its own right.

I very briefly picked up the CA comics and was liking what I was seeing, but I forgot to ask my store to add more issues to my subscription list and then the pandemic hit, so I've only been able to hit the shop every few months. I've seen him appear a few times in the recent-ish Hawkeye and Black Widow comics where I really like how he was handled. (Hawkeye... now THERE's a character who is highly entertaining in the comics and just... there... in the movies.)

Hulk has generally been given the short stick in the films, and too often made the buttmonkey for most of the jokes. I think he had his best outing in Thor: Ragnarok and that's saying something. I have high hopes for She-Hulk rounding out the "Hulkverse" in a good way. I know Bruce won't have a big role in it but I do believe we are going to see him so I hope that presents an opportunity.

Personally I think Thor has had far too much screentime and that the MCU would be far better with less of him, but I really don't care for the character at all (comics or film), so I'll propose an "agree to disagree."

I think I agree with most of what you guys are saying about character development across the movies, but I also wonder, if we step back, are we (and mostly me) being too hard on the creators of the MCU. On the one hand, I hate what they did (for example) with the Hulk/Banner storyline across Infinity War and Endgame. Time skipping the fusion of their personality and not letting us see that play out is probably my biggest MCU disappointment.

I feel like most of the character beats in those two movies happen because someone outlined them rather than because they really made sense or were earned.

The more I watch or think about Endgame, the less I like it, though I loved a lot of it the first time. (I never loved the jump to Professor Hulk or the time travel to Old Steve, even when I was watching it on a Sunday morning eating a bucket of popcorn).

As for Steves, I'll take any of the three. I've read decades worth of Steve Rogers comics. I grew up on Steve Austin (and I'm from Kentucky. Lee Majors was a "local" folk hero when I was a kid). I always identified with Steve Trevor. He is kind of a loser when it comes to being in Wonder Woman comics or the show, but he was a normal guy who did his best in a world of superheroes. He is no Batman, but he does what he can.

Re: The Steves : A friend of mine came up with the idea that a certain type of male sidekick to female superheroes is evaluated in levels of Steve Trevor. For example, in Season Three of the Bionic Woman, Jaime's boyfriend Chris is a Level One Steve Trevor. In Season 1 of Wonder Woman, Colonel Trevor is a Level Three Steve Trevor, while his son in Season 2 and 3 is only a Level Two Steve Trevor (has good moments but he works mainly behind a desk). Steve Austin while of course a hero in his own series, is as a guest star on the Bionic Woman a Level 10 Steve Trevor. I'd say Chris Pine's Steve Trevor is about Level 6 or 7. Steve Rogers is in my own twisted, sexist head a Level 20 Steve Trevor sidekick to Peggy Carter; epic, but still a sidekick to the Real Hero. ;) I haven't come up with the quantitative qualities of a Steve Trevor, but it involves some ratio of personal bravery to worship of the heroine, I think. None of this is to belittle Steve Trevor, but rather that indeed, he sets the standard for Normal Guy who Does What He Can, and secure in his own abilities enough to accept that woman next to him is amazing and not be threatened by her--and indeed, has faith in her, just as he has faith in his own capability to be brave and do what's right.

Am in constant conflict with the MCU to be honest - love the Easter Eggs of dropping in names or comic references - they still make my inner fanboy sing (as most rank and file movie watchers have no idea)... however I also still have protective love for my favourite characters and the story arcs I hold dear.

Too often those little moments and nods are wasted in nothing plot devices or watered down beyond belief (all the Planet Hulk content diluted into the utter skit that was Thor: Ragnarok). That's the reason the lost me after Cap II. Even Guardians (both of which I loved) suffered from being hammered into this vast over-arching plot, when their own canon has so much content.

Since I saw Into the Spiderverse I've always said that should be the future of the MCU - high end animated with cool voice cast. There's a reason the animated Disney movies are head and shoulders above their "live action" remakes...