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So, I totally had a brilliant plan yesterday and by this morning I completely forgot what it was, now that I have the answer to my question in game. I know it was really important to figure out what side the valet was on and now I don't know why. And I am painfully aware you are waiting on me to act before Frank wakes up.
In case I have never made this clear, you are dealing with the severe handicap of playing with a perimenopausal woman with Attention Deficit Disorder.
Anyway, I am not sure how to get from Point A to Point C, to be quite honest.
I know if she thought the guy was Shadow Dragon, she was going to kill him, steal some valet keys, stuff him in a trunk, steal some suitcases to get a change into dry clothes and clean herself up, and drive to Hell's Kitchen to go pick up her driver's license pretending like she totally just had a normal day.
I know if he was Maggia, I think maybe ask him to call in reinforcements? But somehow that doesn't seem right, because she didn't see Negative or the Shadow Dragon leave the hotel (which it seems like she hasn't), and as long as she thinks they are in there, she isn't going back in nor sending a mook in to get themselves killed for no reason.
So I'm asking for some help in a scene push. Maybe she just waits a minute and observes to see further comings and goings? Mind she's probably freezing being wet sitting in some bushes in November in New York, but that's probably still twice as warm as winter in Russia.
DQ, your attention to detail is usually better than mine. I'm never sure how meta to be with talking about story structure, but in this case it is fine for Dottie to run and for us to split up Frank and Dottie for a while. I have some bumpers to engage Dottie's other complications and turn her around, but getting away from here makes sense.
@Tumbler: Clocked that the intro NetherWar adventure features characters that are from
I'm a major fan of Humerto Ramos' work so if we need to frame characters as neophytes or teens (a la Champions or the students of Marvel's new Strange Academy then I'm totally cool with that.
Eoten - Giant of Albion can easily become Eoteen - Stripling Giant of Albion :)
Adventure 0 is set 1 to 7 years before Adventure 1, and uses a set of pregen teen characters. I'm guessing the intent there is to give new players a launchpoint and experience, then they can make their own characters for the campaign.
I'm planning to set Adventure 0 7 years before Adventure 1. So people can play teen versions if they want, but it won't be necessary. I figure lots of good concepts for this game would be long lived, so I wasn't loving the teen hero requirement. For something like Eoten, it seems like the alternate form probably doesn't really age, so it doesn't matter if the academic ages 7 years.
Given that the death of Adrian Eldritch kicks off the problem, I'm thinking the group forms a team called "Eldritch."
Sounds perfect ST :)
What about the Eldritch Pact or Eldritch Covenant as possible nom de sorcellerie?
DQ, your attention to detail is usually better than mine. I'm never sure how meta to be with talking about story structure, but in this case it is fine for Dottie to run and for us to split up Frank and Dottie for a while. I have some bumpers to engage Dottie's other complications and turn her around, but getting away from here makes sense.
My problem is I am not quite sure immediately what to do or where to go. I used up all my juice in that fight. Like, I've basically suddenly got writer's block. I know she needs a change of clothes and a ticket to Hell's Kitchen. I can't figure out narratively how to get there.
What I'm asking is can you please just wrap things up on the other side of things rather than keep waiting for me to do something, to give me time to stop overthinking things. Cause right now I feel like you're waiting for me to post something dramatic and conclusory and i don't have it in me. I am sorry.
Sorry, I didn’t hear that, before. I’ll take care of it.
Makes sense to have Dottie bolt - and a nice cliffhanger for the "episode": Frank's down and out, Dottie has strategically retreated into the night and Negative has apparently won out..
Just need a guest appearance by Castle, DD or Cage as Dottie runs into them :)
I managed to wrap her up in character, just mainly repeating what I said here. Sorry for my sudden derp attack. We'll need a push along still.
As for bumping into people, this is up to ST of course, but Dottie's thinking about hiring a detective.
I'm the problem now. Got slammed at work yesterday and today.
Work has not been kind to me either. No worries.
You could always decide she's not there, SuperT. Or you can play her assistant Gillian. Or a still-unforgiven pre Season 3 but post Season 2 Trish could be stalking Jessica, who is out. Or Trish's mom, the woman who is the reason why Dottie is only the second most evil Dorothy in the MCU.
While I fully admit I'd be disappointed if she didn't get to meet JJ, as I expect Dottie would adore Jessica in all her raw, grumpy, but secretly good-hearted glory (and drive JJ crazy); it's your story. She's just looking for a neutral third party to help her seek some background information, who she hopes will be smart enough to not get themselves in trouble or get themselves out of it quickly if something goes awry.
I'm not opposed to including her (or Trish). Just intimidated. It's harder to write other people's characters. Just don't want to screw it up.
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I've been doing it for two years! :)
True. I've watched some research material. Feeling more prepared now.
DQ, I'm running a recruitment for the Netherwar game. If you are interested. No worries if you don't have time.
Sorry for the delay. Work has been crazy this week trying to wrap up the school year from home. I'll get back when I can.
No rush chief - got plenty on my own plate (not least with nailing down final version of Eoten :)
By the way, I am sorry I never responded to the Netherwar recruitment. If you had started it say, now, rather than 10 days ago, I would have signed up in a heartbeat (this is not a castigation of you, just an explanation of my life circumstances). But between dealing with the job transition and a massive asthma episode I just couldn't get anything together. Good luck to you, I hope it went well.
Oh, heavens, please join. I made it quite clear in the recruitment thread that I was holding a place for you. Still, if it works better to join later, that is good, too.
BD I know we have fully signed onto this as antiheroic characters to say the least. Dottie DOES put a lot of blame of what happened on Frank, in truth, though of course that doesn't make it fair. I have few other characters who would do such a thing. It's hard to play. I'm much more inclined to play "Gracie" type characters.
Anyway, perhaps it should go without saying but of course I don't want this to screw up our ultimate gameplay partnership.
First of all, Dottie will very likely, given the opportunity, dig hard into Frank (to his face), basically for not doing things her way. I think it would totally be fair for Frank to dig hard into Dottie for abandoning him, and encourage you to do so. (or for any reason you see fit, this is an example, not a directive.)
Secondly I hope meta-wise we can work toward smoothing this out through the plot arc--in an organic way.
I totally admit I enjoy the drama. But don't want to wreck things in the long haul either. The whole point is Dottie is a bit rudderless without Peggy or an ethical leader like, say, Nick Fury and is apt to fall eventually without such a guide or an event that snaps her into a different focus. I know Frank isn't the type to give her orders or even necessarily serve as a good example, but I am hoping they might ultimately help serve as guideposts for one another in their own way. He's the closest thing she's had to a friend in decades, so that's something I need to think about how SHE needs to think about... and ultimately appreciate.
All good DQ - wouldn't expect her (and you) to play it out any other way.
Frank stubbornly went mano-a-mano with Negative, effectively slipping back into his old enforcer approach. Constrictor in the comics never really became anything more than a jobber villain until he joined The Initiative. As a member of their black-ops team he got better storylines and it fleshed out his persona more.
See Frank as a long arc. He's been defined by his suit and his role for much of his "professional" life. Taking orders not the lead has been his modus operandi and at present, under the hammer, he's defaulting to that.
Should be noted that while he'll take all the flak for the Negative defeat, he's also been quick to sign his soul away for $$$$ when offered. Didn't hesitate. He's a merc, who is trying to do the right thing (by potentially doing wrong) so yeah, we make a fine pair of dysfunctional anti-heroes. :)
We (and they) will definitely work it out - stuff like this is challenging and highly rewarding, and not something you often get to explore in standard games. Enjoying it immensely :)
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I think that's the interesting thing about both Dottie and Frank. They're soldiers/mercs/enforcers, not leaders on their own. Dottie can operate on her own and make her own decisions when she's had to to survive. But she'd much rather be handed a mission and do it without having to be the one to put the thought into the whys and the hows and the consequences. Actually realizing there's no one around to take responsibility for what's happening but her and her immediate allies is new.
One thing is I need to make her less wordy (read: not at all like me). She probably would have said far less to Joe in truth. But I was kind of anticipating the conversation they had and sort of trying to pound it all out to get past the exposition. She should be holding things much closer to the hip than I am letting her. (But, maybe she's just chatty in her 90s. I expect the Raft is at least partially solitary confinement. She might just be desperate to talk after 15 years. Sure, yeah. yeah, that's it and not at all me writing her poorly. ;) )
I think everything is going splendidly, but clear communication is good. Good to be very clear about where character stops.
Don't be too hard on yourself, DQ. Even Frank Castle became chattier when he headlined his own show. If our main characters are Dottie and Frank, Dottie and Frank have to do some talking.
Thanks, SuperT. Maybe I'm just guaranteeing that in whatever alternate universes we are creating, Bridget Regan is getting as much screentime as possible. ;)
Waiting on you Frank. :)
So, yes, I remember the containment device. However:
1. My understanding is the containment device was not a weapon--it in itself would do nothing to Negative. It was just a means to hold a sample of Negative's darkforce so Sterns and Samberly could test it and THEN they could analyze and devise a weapon against it.
2. We need to get close enough to Negative to activate the containment device, and then be able to get safely away from Negative to get the sample to Sterns and Samberly.
**** HOW TO DO BOTH OF THESE WITHOUT DYING HORRIBLY IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM
3. Compounding the problem of #2 is that the containment device I recall was not small--it least the size of a human arm, and an obvious, heavy, weird high tech doohicky. So transporting it is a problem. They can't just wander around with this weird high tech device hoping they'll run into Negative while also not drawing attention from the police, Roxxon, whatever SHIELD rogues are nearby, etc. While yes they can keep it in a backpack or whatever, that still limits movement and accessiblity. You have made sure to design it so transporting it is obvious, difficult, and unwieldy, which considerably limits our options on what we can do with it and when we can activate it. If you believe you have been terribly obvious about what we are supposed to do with it and when, you have not (I say this not as a player trying to grief their GM, but as a GM who has often thought I was broadcasting loud and clear what to do with a macguffin and my players in reality weren't getting it at all).
4. Dottie turned the conversation toward spying on Negative because she thinks the only chance of getting a sample from him is by sneaking up on him, not be engaging him in open combat. Neither I nor Dottie has any idea how we could possibly make use of the containment unit in a combat situation.
5. Dottie's further objections to what Frank is talking about are threefold:
- She has a Complication that makes her paralyzingly terrified of Zero Matter and won't go anywhere near it
- The plan yesterday was "let's gather the capos, build an army, and then we can take the fight to the Shadow Dragon." Before we got anywhere with that, all the capos save two were killed by a terrifying nearly insta-kill dessicating gas.
- One big step both I and Dottie are failing to understand are how the hell can we build an army when all the capos have now died, and we were told that getting their alliance was critical to having the manpower to deal with this? Part of Dottie's skepticism as to Lou's part is where the hell is he getting the people to do this when we needed the leaders who are now dead to get the people? And if he already had the manpower, why did we need to have the meeting with the capos?
6. Also, when Dottie agreed to the "let's build an army" plan, that was before she observed Negative dodging machine gunfire and learning that in addition to Darkforce, the Shadow Dragon has a gas weapon that can instantly kill anyone who isn't superheroic in levels of stamina. While she and I get that, sure, we could throw a horde of Maggia mooks at the Shadow Dragon as a distraction while she and Frank sneak through the back to get the sample, what we now know about what the Shadow Dragon is capable of is that every single one of those mooks will be sentenced to death if we use them. So she is objecting to this plan NOW because while once upon a time she might be happy to sacrifice hundreds of mooks so she could get close to a bad guy to get what she needed, her Peggy-influenced SHIELD training tells her throwing dozens of ordinary humans at a team that has Darkforce and death gas at their disposal violates many mission protocols. I.e., the potential human toll is too much--this plays into Dottie's other complications in that she is trying to do things in a way that honors Peggy Carter's memory.
7. In summary, basically the entire situation looks completely impossible and all goals are completely unattainable, because the Shadow Dragon and Negative are immune to anything we can do, have multiple instakill weapons like the gas that will take out any ordinary human allies we recruit, and we can't get close enough to Negative to take out the giant-arm sized containment unit, which we need to get a sample to get Samberly and Sterns to make a weapon, which is the only tangible lead we have on how to stop him. But as there's no obvious way to get close to him in a SAFE way to get the sample, there's no visible path forward.
Dottie in particular has no capabilities that can help her deal with this situation (apart from slowly gathering information, which is why that's all she's been doing), and the only reason she hasn't gotten the hell out of dodge is I want to keep playing. I assume you have been going for the dramatic "all hope appears to be lost" moment in storytelling and that you are not planning for a "rocks fall everyone dies" ending because that doesn't seem your style. However, she (and I) are chafing against the current plan because all it seems like is it will get a lot of people killed for no reason, and I am not sure how else to proceed (apart from gathering more information).
If there is something obvious we are missing, let me know. Or if this seems like a good time that I should spend a hero point for GM insight, let me know. Thanks.
ETA: Oh, and also: yes, Dottie doesn't want to let the Maggia know about the device. She does not want to expose Samberly and Sterns to them. However, Frank actually has possession of it and it's up to him when it gets brought out.
Simple: Lou's forming the Lethal Legion! Way I'm reading it, is they'll be a gang of supermooks hired in?
(I have no idea what Tumbler's planning, but drafting in the likes of C-List villains types like Porcupine, the Blue Streak and Stiletto (to name but three) would be cool but also in keeping with the "we got no troops left... let's hire some new (disposable) ones..."
I'm hoping that the next mini-arc will see us at least able to damage Negative's allies/network. Leaving the dust to settle and a reckoning with him to come...
Bear in mind that Frank is not nearly as mixed up (in the nicest possible way) as Dottie. He is a failed SHIELD agent, former costumed enforcer, who sees the flash of big cash (10 mil from the off) being offered. That is too much money to ignore, even if deep down he knows the sum reflects the real risk.
I too am playing off on Frank's complications:
Motivation (Redemption): Frank is a fallen SHIELD agent, who now has the opportunity to gain a degree of atonement for his actions as a villain.
Motivation (Mercenary at Heart): As a former enforcer-for-hire he finds "doing the right thing" to be less financially profitable than most criminal enterprises he used to engage in. Squaring this drive for financial reward vs adopting a more "heroic" mindset is a constant challenge for Frank.
Responsibility (Daughter - Mia): Though she believes him to be dead, Frank is still driven to provide for his young daughter.
Bad Reputation: Constrictor is known enhanced criminal enforcer and unscrupulous mercenary, and despite Frank's change of heart, former allies and foes alike will judge him on his previous actions.
Agree tho' this is an interesting crossroads for our duo :)
I didn't get the sense at all supers were being brought in--indeed, Dottie asked Joe "hey put your cards on the table" to create an opening to see if such resources were available. The response did not indicate to me they were.
I totally get why Frank's on board. No questions or misunderstandings there.
I still am personally confused by the "we need to get the capos to help build an army but now the capos are dead but we can still build an army"--like, I'm just wondering what I have screwed up/misunderstood.
And the purpose of my post was primarily because Tumbler seemed to be hinting we should be making use of the doohicky we were given but I a) am not seeing the opportunity to use it and b) Frank actually has the doohicky so he's the one who controls when it gets brought out.
In completely other news, are you watching the new season of Agents of SHIELD? Lots of good SHIELD history being explored. :)
And Hugh Jones, Roxxon, and Isodyne have been namedropped.
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This is all helpful. I'm going to ponder it and respond tomorrow. One of my problems, of course, is that I can't tell you too much what I am thinking without giving everything away.
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And I don't expect you to.
All of that is laid out because I have been in a situation several times where as a GM I've built a game, thought I built the possible steps forward super clearly, dropped all these clues I thought were totally obvious.... and then the players envisioned entirely different steps and picked up on entirely different details from the clues I had tried to drop. And I am happy to say that it is the players being dense and that as I am the player in this case, I am the one being dense. :) But I also know sometimes it's helpful for me as GM to hear from the players what they're picking up on as why... so I can then either build on what story they're making, or insert something/someone that helps them get back on track and see what they missed.
You have built an enormously complicated plot with a lot of moving parts--and congratulations, that's no mean feat. That is difficult to do. It indeed is very Netflix like. But it does make it likely that we're gonna lose track of something. Combined with the fact that you have made your bad guys look completely invincible and entirely outside our two heroes' capability to tackle, with zero clues toward attaining mmediate, tangible "here we have a thing that can help hurt/capture/temporarily incapacitate" them, trying to determine an obvious route forward from a player's perspective is extraordinarily difficult. We can try to get a sample, yes, but even if somehow we figure out how to get close enough to him without dying, that still puts us miles behind a real way to contend with the bad guys, because the scientists need time to analyze the sample. (They also need to get the info from Hale; it's too dangerous for either Frank or Dottie to be seen snooping around Roxxon to figure out how to get close to him, so that's why she hired Jessica.)
Lou's plan may be what you are offering in terms of an obvious way forward. The problem for Dottie is it is coming from the man who led them into a trap yesterday, and he is offering as incentive the one thing Dottie hates most: corruptive wealth. Dottie needs proof the plan is real and have a chance of working, and an incentive that speaks to her goals (even if it's just the $10 million repackaged in a form she feels comfortable working with and knows what to do with: gear, a more sensible stipend of cash, and a donation to the charity of her choice). Provide that, and she is on board.
(Also if I feel I need insight, I will spend a hero point.)
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Please remind me not to post before I have coffee.
DQ, if that is an apology, it isn't necessary. I appreciate your diplomacy, and your awareness that tone can be hard to convey here, but I'm going to default to trusting you and not taking anything personally.
I typed a long response, then copied and pasted it into my notes for the campaign. I decided it was too spoilery. I'm struggling with how meta to be. I'm concerned that if I tell you what I am thinking, then we will all just be going through the motions to follow the story, which is the opposite of what I want from this campaign.
So I'm going to keep it brief. From my perspective, what Frank and Dottie need is a brief survivable encounter with Negative where they can get a sample of the Zero Matter into the containment vessel. I may have misjudged how heroic Dottie's motivations were with regard to other "soldiers."
All of that said, I'm completely prepared for Dottie to bug out and for us to be running a parallel campaign. I don't think that would be quite as much fun, but I'm all for these characters being themselves. This is the only game I'm running that isn't a prewritten adventure, so I'm glad to keep it open.
Instead of telling you what I am up to, I'm going to try to make things a little more obvious with my in character responses from Joe and Lou.
@Tumbler: No probs, I fully trust you to allow us glimpses behind the curtain before any big reveal. Conjecture and different readings into the same material is what is making this game so unique (imho).
Also for a Marvel (comics) Zombie, when you drop character references it does make me very, very happy. Would hate to "predict" any of them with giveaways and dilute that.
One thing that DQ did touch on that would be of benefit is a current threads summary in the Campaign Page. Will make keeping tabs of our cast of dramatis personae and their relevance to specific plot threads easier to track.
It was an apology for both unintended tone and for general nonsensical rambling.
Joe's response was super helpful and I found a way in that ties together the other work Frank and I had been doing. I am hopefully back on track now.
BTW there's a reason I asked if you were watching Agents of SHIELD... not sure things are going to panned out but there's some interesting potential there that could give you some more sand for the sandbox if you needed it.
PS - just a note in case Joe delivers on the body armor (which I do not necessarily expect him to). Dottie can't have a higher Toughness than 6 (which she has with her leather jacket and Defensive Roll). She does not have any imperviousness however. I can also burn XP toward this if necessary, when we earn it; just the narrative question of how did she get it could be answered this way.
I guess I'll get on watching Agents of Shield. I usually wait and binge a whole season at the end, but it looks like this season has a lot of pertinent material.
In fairness there is one pertinent line... but that line pertains to a pertinent character who might actually end up a source of info/help in this era (or be an enemy, alternately). If you want to wait and see, that also makes sense. That character's fate may need to be more fully revealed. Simply, if you had been watching I would have said what I was thinking more explicitly, which is the reason I was asking.
Speaking of players who fail to pick up on plot hooks... (laughing at myself here) :)
It took me 36 hours to realize that was a link, so I can't throw stones about failing to pick up on things.
Just to be clear, what I'm thinking with the beating Frank took is that noir trope of the hero taking a beating and still going. In parallel, Dottie is taking a mental beating and keeps coming back. I'm sure you are clever enough to pick up on that, but I want to make sure no one thinks I'm some sort of GM sadist.
BTW BD, I think you saw in the other game, but I think SuperT is indisposed at the moment. Hopefully all will be well soon.
In other news, BD, what do you think; if all our other plans fail: Dottie and Frank enter a lip sync contest? I think we can make Negative die laughing.
Hey DQ - I did clock that, and figured that this less linear game would slow due to ST's RL.
Haha. Think you're onto something there - he'll die laughing or at the very least think us so little a threat he lowers the ol' defences.
I finally subscribed to Hulu and just started Cloak and Dagger. And then I thought maybe I should check in -- is that okay? Since it deals with Roxxon and Darkforce I don't want to wreck any surprises.
While I am drawing some background material from the show, nothing will be spoiled from watching it.
I've been catching up on Agents of Shield, which has messed with my timeline a bit, but not too much.
Agents of SHIELD is messing with ALL timelines a bit so we can take liberties, I expect.
But isn't this season GOOD? My only disappointment is in a mid-season villain.
I have enjoyed it a lot. I like how they stripped the team down to mostly the originals, and I love the way they have adapted each episode to different eras, and all of the little comics easter eggs. I felt like the last few seasons were distracted from being about well, the agents of shield.
Sorry gang - work hammer swinging at the moment. Hopefully be clear after tomorrow
No worries. I'm struggling with keeping up with my games, so no rush from me.
I have enjoyed it a lot. I like how they stripped the team down to mostly the originals, and I love the way they have adapted each episode to different eras, and all of the little comics easter eggs. I felt like the last few seasons were distracted from being about well, the agents of shield.
I agree, everyone has been able to be especially SHIELD-y while also exploring more fantastical sides of the MCU which feels right. I did really like season 6 but the early part of it especially felt unbalanced.
The credit sequences were awesome.
Oooh, I just got to the episode of Cloak and Dagger where they find the bad guy's Crazy Person String board! Dottie has a soul mate. <3