Bestiary: hag
Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision.
All three hags must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities function at CL 9th (or at the highest CL available to the most powerful hag in the coven). The save DCs are Charisma-based, and function as if with a Charisma score of 16 unless one of the hags has a higher Charisma score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that hag's Charisma modifier.
At the GM's discretion, certain more powerful hag covens might have additional spell-like abilities.
When hags form a coven, they get bonus spell likes. Here is the standard list:
3rd animate dead
5th baleful polymorph
4th blight
3rd bestow curse
3rd clairaudience/clairvoyance
4th charm monster
5th commune
7th control weather
5th dream
7th forcecage
8th mind blank
5th mirage arcana
4th reincarnate
3rd speak with dead
6th veil
7th vision
My GM thinks my character's gaining access to full coven powers would break the game. I see his point, and I don't want to do that. However, he thinks having a coven is cool, so I am encouraged to find a way to make things work. My thought is to come up with a different set of SLA powers, that won't break things.
My character is Ninja 8/Witch 1. I have a back-story of a ninja clan that used witches for support on occasion, as well as occasional multi-classing as I have done. I have a cohort Witch 7. I have a follower Warrior 1/Witch 1. All have the coven hex. I just acquired some body parts and fluids from several hags we just fought.
My cohort and I are both Fetchlings. We are in the Skulls & Shackles AP. While the AP encourages the darker alignments, I am on the side of light. I see my own role as more information and sneaky stuff rather than assassin. To that end, I am essentially a diplomancer and acrobat. What I am looking for is a set of SLAs and perhaps limits (#/day kind of thing, or min CL, etc.) that would be AP and GM friendly. I see a focus on information gathering, mental magic, and shadow magic. The more is allows role play opportunities, the better. I don't see a focus on combat or flashy big spells. [I.e. weather manipulation is out.]
Could you fine folks on the boards help me create a suitable SLA list?
Thanks
/cevah
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Well unless you can get an actual hag to join your coven AND adventure with you there's no need to modify those powers at all. As is the easiest thing to do is simply to run the power as is and IF your GM decides to let a Hag become a part of your coven keep her stationary.
You have to go to her to perform any of those rituals keeping the game breaking spells out of combat. Worst case with this is you get a few extra low level undead following the party around every once in awhile with a few useful Divination spells if the party is interested enough to use them.
You might want to check out the Crone Disciple prestige class from Wayfinder 5.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Well unless you can get an actual hag to join your coven AND adventure with you there's no need to modify those powers at all. As is the easiest thing to do is simply to run the power as is and IF your GM decides to let a Hag become a part of your coven keep her stationary.
You have to go to her to perform any of those rituals keeping the game breaking spells out of combat. Worst case with this is you get a few extra low level undead following the party around every once in awhile with a few useful Divination spells if the party is interested enough to use them.
The simulacrum spell is in reach. Getting a loyal hag is doable, and having a cohort and follower already on board the ship makes a ship based coven doable. However, the GM has already nixed the standard set. That is why I posted. Can you come up with an alternate set of SLAs?
/cevah
@KenderKin: saying "Don't do that" does not help. Try to find a way to make it work per the OP.
Does no one have a way to make a coven like set of SLAs that would give the feel of a coven without breaking the AP?
/cevah
Check out Witch Coven hex questions for a breakdown and the rest of the thread for ideas.
Trust me, it can break the AP in several ways.
Commune, Control Weather, and Forcecage are all potent and can break things. The others can do so, but in more restricted circumstances.
Basically, I want to have a coven with special abilities that are themed appropriately yet not a problem for the GM.
/cevah
There's a suggestion in the thread you linked to, Cevah, to lower the abilities of the coven due to its "weaker" nature - maybe the hag simulacrum just doesn't cut it. Replacing Animate Dead with Lesser Animate Dead or maybe Skeleton Crew, for instance, and Commune with Augury.
If you and your GM are open to it, I'd check out the Incantations material from 3.5 or Zombie Sky Press - at will SLAs don't really have that coven ritual feel, and Incantations would help.
Another option would be to look over the hex list and give the coven some hex abilities when working together- the Cauldron Hex, Poison Steep, etc. Those are hexes that many witches don't often take but would also add to the coven theme. Maybe the hag can use the Scar hex in conjunction with some of the others, like Water Lung, as long as she keeps chanting over the cauldron or what have you, giving you easy access to something that allows underwater exploration but is still vulnerable to being disrupted by someone disturbing her ritual.
Quick note to making a Coven consisting entirely of Party Members, you just need a Sorcerer with the Accursed Bloodline and Two Witches with the Coven Hex. Now you have a first level party with access to Coven abilities, access to Witch Save or Die hexes and Sorcerer spell coverage! Useful NPC died? Reincarnate! BBEG thinks they can flee to the next adventure? Forcecage! Turn dead enemies into Bloody Skeletons without spending any Onyx (and having 9 CL for doing so at level 1)? Animate Dead! Want to figure out the plot before it happens? Commune! Hate failing Will Saves? Mindblank all around!
Best level 1 party. Ever. I wonder if all that is PFS legal... *plots*
I think that both the coven hex and the accursed bloodline both have the same problem. Your coven doesn't include an actual hag. Am I missing something?
I think that both the coven hex and the accursed bloodline both have the same problem. Your coven doesn't include an actual hag. Am I missing something?
Nope, you are correct. I thought the language of Accured let you actually count as a Hag, but on a second reading it is only for purposes of joining a coven (like the Coven hex) and a real hag is needed.
There's a suggestion in the thread you linked to, Cevah, to lower the abilities of the coven due to its "weaker" nature - maybe the hag simulacrum just doesn't cut it. Replacing Animate Dead with Lesser Animate Dead or maybe Skeleton Crew, for instance, and Commune with Augury.
If you and your GM are open to it, I'd check out the Incantations material from 3.5 or Zombie Sky Press - at will SLAs don't really have that coven ritual feel, and Incantations would help.
Another option would be to look over the hex list and give the coven some hex abilities when working together- the Cauldron Hex, Poison Steep, etc. Those are hexes that many witches don't often take but would also add to the coven theme. Maybe the hag can use the Scar hex in conjunction with some of the others, like Water Lung, as long as she keeps chanting over the cauldron or what have you, giving you easy access to something that allows underwater exploration but is still vulnerable to being disrupted by someone disturbing her ritual.
I am fine with a weakened list of SLAs, but do you have a sample?
I don't think Incantations would work, as there are only three listed and only suggestions on how to make more. I am looking for predefined effects. I do think Hexes are a good idea. As stated in the OP, I am also OK with SLAs pegged to CL access or #/day limit.
I don't have a hag yet, and if I can get a workable list of SLAs, I won't need one. However, getting a hag via a simulacrum spell is looking like the best way to get a coven. But that would annoy the GM's game. So I would prefer to avoid that.
As listed in the OP, I have a theme in mind, and would like a set of SLAs that fit without being overpowered.
/cevah
Problem is that with Rules as Written, player characters aren't really meant to be able to get in covens; the Coven Hex and the Accursed Bloodline of Sorceror (or Eldritch Heritage) seem like afterthoughts (and as already noted above, they don't let you be a Coven Anchor). The rules as written also provide no way for a Changeling, Witch, or Accursed Bloodline player character to undergo full metamorphosis (that would enable becoming a coven anchor) while remaining a player character. The new Bestiary 4 "hag" entries (or at least such parts as have made it onto d20PFsrd) are also no help, simply throwing in more types that are not particularly well fleshed out instead of fleshing out the existing types, and not updating the list of Changelings at all. Furthermore, the Covens all seem to have the same level of powers regardless of who their members are, with the exception that a "Blood Hag" causes certain Coven spell-like abilities to be substituted (but always the same substitution), with no regard to the members' levels. Unlike D&D 3.5 (which gave alignments for most of them as only "Usually Chaotic Evil", the rules as written don't even provide for a Changeling to remain non-evil through metamorphosis (although allegedly Wrath of the Righteous gives a chance to redeem a Demon, which is arguably even harder, so don't give up completely on this possibility).
What would be needed would be a system in which Covens start out with low-level spell-like abilities when they have only low-level members, and get better spell-like abilities when they get high-level members (subject to the provision that a coven formed initially from high-level members will quickly attain the high-level spell-like abilities if its members make the proper investment and contribution). The spell-like abilities should also vary depending upon the choices of the Coven members (just like not all Witches get the same hexes and spells, even if they have the same Patron and thus an equal spell list to choose from). If done properly, this would solve the balance issues, and open the door to fleshing out Witchbloods to a much greater extent than they have been. The nucleus of a really interesting story is already there, but it is unfulfilled.
Problem is that with Rules as Written, player characters aren't really meant to be able to get in covens;
Actually, the Simulacrum spell is core, and works fine to acquire an anchor for a coven.
the Coven Hex and the Accursed Bloodline of Sorceror (or Eldritch Heritage) seem like afterthoughts (and as already noted above, they don't let you be a Coven Anchor).
So lets fix it.
Furthermore, the Covens all seem to have the same level of powers regardless of who their members are, with the exception that a "Blood Hag" causes certain Coven spell-like abilities to be substituted (but always the same substitution), with no regard to the members' levels.
While the SLAs are pretty fixed, the CL and DC do vary based upon the members.
Unlike D&D 3.5 (which gave alignments for most of them as only "Usually Chaotic Evil", the rules as written don't even provide for a Changeling to remain non-evil through metamorphosis (although allegedly Wrath of the Righteous gives a chance to redeem a Demon, which is arguably even harder, so don't give up completely on this possibility).
I think I saw that, but cannot find it now. Link?
What would be needed would be a system in which Covens start out with low-level spell-like abilities when they have only low-level members, and get better spell-like abilities when they get high-level members (subject to the provision that a coven formed initially from high-level members will quickly attain the high-level spell-like abilities if its members make the proper investment and contribution). The spell-like abilities should also vary depending upon the choices of the Coven members (just like not all Witches get the same hexes and spells, even if they have the same Patron and thus an equal spell list to choose from). If done properly, this would solve the balance issues, and open the door to fleshing out Witchbloods to a much greater extent than they have been. The nucleus of a really interesting story is already there, but it is unfulfilled.
I am beginning to think I should have posted in homebrew, since no one here wants to do more than throw out some ideas. I don't want to evolve a complete system, but rather just a simple list: at level X get Y at a rate of Z per day. [Z can be at will or Cha Mod + X or whatever.]
/cevah
Bestiary: hag
** spoiler omitted **
I see you are of good alignment, so a Hag joing your coven does nothing for you, as hags are evil. You're hooped, and RAW, players can't create a coven of their own.
However, if you and your GM are willing to look at Homebrew stuff, you may like the following that we at Multiclass Productions (the Multiclass Archetypes VII thread and our Multiclass Archetypes Wiki) have developed for witches, both good and evil, and allowing them to create their own covens.
As you have the Coven hex, you're good to go 9sort of). If you were evil, you'd be able to take our Coven Leader major hex.
However, as you are of good alignment, you could instead take the Holy Coven hex. You'd need to see if your GM will allow you to swap the Coven hex for the Holy Coven hex. Then you could take the Coven Leader major hex to for a holy coven, of which your follower could be a part of.
As for role playing potential, you can seek out other good witches to join your holy coven.
Here's a description of the Holy Coven and its SLAs, which are very different from a Hag's coven's SLAs. Takes a few more witches to create a holy coven, but that's the price of being good sometimes.
Covens are typically malevolent gatherings meant to enhance the power of hags or those who join it. With such a threat to the common good of all peoples, new covens have arisen whose soul purpose is to battle against these foul servants of dark patrons.
Holy covens consist of powerful witches who serve the patrons of light and vehemently battle against the darkness. Only good-aligned witches may belong to a holy coven. When five witches of any good alignment gather, they can form a holy coven to gain increased magical ability. Any combination of good-aligned witches can form a coven, but only a good-aligned witch of 10th level or higher with the coven leader hex may serve as the coven leader of such holy gatherings.
Whenever all five witches of good-alignment of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all five of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: break enchantment, breath of life, clairaudience/clairvoyance, commune, contact other plane, control weather, curse of magic negation (DC 17), divine illumination (DC 16), divination, euphoric tranquility (DC 21), forbiddance (DC 19), foresight, grove of respite, remove curse, serenity (DC 19), speak with dead, vision.
All five witches must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities function at CL 9th (or at the highest CL available to the most powerful witch in the coven). The save DCs are Intelligence-based, and function as if with a Intelligence score of 16 unless one of the witches has a higher Intelligence score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that witch's Intelligence modifier.
At the GM's discretion, certain more powerful holy covens might have additional spell-like abilities.
Hope this helps or at least gives you some guidelines as to where you may want to go with your coven.
The Simulacrum spell states: "At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command." Looks like a loyal hag to me no matter the different alignments. You just have to set up the commands to serve you. After a while, repeated forced good acts can change the alignment from evil.
/cevah
Hmm... "Absolute command" seems rather... well... absolute. I like it. But that means 13th character level at the earliest, and as none of those spells are available much earlier than that, it doesn't seem to be too particularly game-breaking.
Much more likely for characters to force one's compliance earlier, but that requires capturing a live Hag, which means there also has to BE one for them to capture, and if they do and it's PFS, they can't carry it over into the next module. If its not, it's possible only at the DM's discretion, and may make things more difficult on them (especially if said Hag was part of another Coven who may be seeking vengeance).
As for the original post: See if the DM will tone down the weather manipulation a bit but still provide it for you. Always having good winds on your ship seems to be beneficial from a gameplay standpoint, and would make sense for a Coven to do on the sea. Plus, will get you places much faster, which is always a bonus.
The way it's written, these Spell-Like Abilities are cast whenever the Coven wants--ie: an unlimited number of times per day, and with no component cost. That IS more than a bit broken; probably a good idea to limit everything to 1/day above, say, 3rd or 4th level, and 3/day for every ability less than that.
Also, as written, most are REALLY nice for use as shipboard abilities, although even then several of them will be useful for a short time before they are necessary to be used to protect the player's Coven itself (ie: the Hag who serves as the anchor).
Replace the Baleful Polymorph with a more benign version for casting on allies, say, to turn them into a fish/dolphin/bird whatever for scouting purposes. DM can decide whether that's too cheesy for players, or whether it only gets used on NPC scouts to make things a bit less broken). Even if not replaced, the short range and limited use (1/Day tops) should make it, at most, a last-ditch effort to protect the Coven.
Blight makes no sense in this setting. Replace it with some other Sorc/Wiz/Witch spell of around 4th or 5th level. If you want a non-combat-specific one and don't mind the extra work, I highly recommend "Harrowing". It has a witchy feel what with the Harrow deck, and will fit when done daily as part of the voyage to determine one's close fate. If the Hag is coerced or mind-controlled, she might even use snarky comments like "Hmmm... I'm pretty sure there is much suffering in your future!" or "I forsee that you will bleed heavily this day!" or the like while still granting you the effects.
Bestow Curse is appropriate, but fairly limited as the Coven has to be right there, under attack. Thus, for balance sake, it's little use. If the DM wants it to be helpful to the party somehow, let it be 'reversible'--IE: Bestow Curse OR Remove Curse. Then the party has a built in 1/day method of removing a Curse should one be afflicted.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance works fine as a method of scouting, and probably should remain unchanged, aside from making it 3/Day. Use this to 'spot' details on other ships, or simply 'move' the viewing distance that the guy up in the Crow's Nest would otherwise have for spotting ships or land at a distance (ie: Target the sensor 'straight up' at its maximum range will result in an extra mile or two of viewing distance from the ship, and constitutes an 'obvious' location for targeting the spell). Helps to have high Perception on the one using it, obviously.
Replace Charm Monster, or leave it as is and save it as a way of charming NPC's for later use, thanks to its long duration. Works on critters, so it may be possible to ally with some odd sea creature or the like.
Commune seems fine if the DM doesn't mind, otherwise, bump it down to a lower-level divination 'answer finding' spell with more uses. Shouldn't be more than 1/day as Commune, though.
Control Weather I tackled above. 1/Day tops. If this seems broken, reduce it to Control Winds instead (also 1/Day), in which case it can be used to skirt the edge of a Sargasso or ensure that the boat has maximum winds for a single combat.
Dream seems very witchy and not combat-oriented, so it's in no danger of imbalance. It also seems to be a REALLY nice method of free long-distance communication. Work with NPC's so you know their sleep schedules or have arranged 'nap times' for communication.
Forcecage does seem powerful, but is very limited range. I don't know what to swap with, but if it's 1/Day, you don't really need to. Its an emergency option for when your Hag is targeted by assassins, which will come up at some point. Alternatively, see if the DM will swap it for Wall of Force and use that during ship battles or at least to absorb the opening volley you would otherwise take... or to limit an enemy ship's movement options (force them to ram it, basically, then ram them and board).
Mind Blank seems fine for its purpose, and is an all-day buff. 1/Day seems good. Can initially put this on the party's scout, eventually will likely be used solely on the Coven's Hag to prevent the assassination attempts mentioned above (or after one to prevent further, once the enemies learn what's up).
Mirage Arcana (1/Day) seems like a great 'cloaking device' for your ship, that disguises it as something else. Of course, if your ship is big enough, this may not work too well. Mostly used for avoiding encounters early on, like Mind Blank, it will eventually be necessary merely to avoid too much overt attention in ports. Make the ship look like another, with different name, figurehead, and flags, and/or make it look less impressive (more decrepit, say) while docked at a port. This will throw off local attention as well as reduce odds of enemy scrying. Alternatively, if hunting pirates, park your ship and use this to make it look as if the masts are broken, sails are torched, etc, and that what crew is in the area look like emaciated, starving (though not diseased!) wretches. Nothing pulls in pirates like the chance for quick and easy loot.
Reincarnate seems to be the only truly broken power. Unlimited free resurrection attempts is kind of cheesy. I don't know what to replace with it though. DM may want to allow it simply so that HE doesn't have to come up with some way of providing for your character's to find rezzing if they don't have it with them. Plus, the random race thing may cause problems.
Speak With Dead is fine. You have to bring the body back to the Hag, though, so good luck with that. At least that forces the team to think about how they want to use this, and on what they want to waste it. 1/Day seems a good limit, as it provides an option but forces careful choice.
Veil--see Mirage Arcana above. Initially for party use, but once the fun wears off or it seems broken, someone finds out about the Hag, and she has to use this pretty much 24/7 to avoid notice and dodge scrying attempts.
Vision--Perfectly fine, another method of arcane augury. I recommend making it 1/Day however. Also, as a side note, I recommend modifying the heap of "Coven SLA's" so that they can NOT be cast while Fatigued. Now, while they MAY have access to this ability, it will likely be the last one used in a day... which serves the DM well, as before they rest each night the players can use this ability to help find the next 'link' the adventure--where they have to go, to find a certain NPC or monster or treasure, etc, and then set course for that the next day.
Hope some of that helps your DM out. As mentioned, the main problem to the balance is all that being 'free unlimited use'. Narrow it down to X/day and things get much easier. If the DM is still worried, limit it to Y freebies per day, where Y is the number of members in the Coven. Now they have to pick and choose more carefully while having lots of options. Either way though, this seems like it could make the adventure quite fun to have a Coven on board a boat, and I may rip this idea for one of my own campaigns.
Good luck!
Hmm... "Absolute command" seems rather... well... absolute. I like it. But that means 13th character level at the earliest, and as none of those spells are available much earlier than that, it doesn't seem to be too particularly game-breaking.
A scroll for a 5HD result hag costs 4775 gp. Easily affordable at lower level. Problem is the UMD needed to successfully cast it. If it was on my list, the CL check would be a lot easier. Still, not too expensive.
Much more likely for characters to force one's compliance earlier, but that requires capturing a live Hag, which means there also has to BE one for them to capture, and if they do and it's PFS, they can't carry it over into the next module. If its not, it's possible only at the DM's discretion, and may make things more difficult on them (especially if said Hag was part of another Coven who may be seeking vengeance).
Having a hag to encounter is entirely GM discretion. Having your character go hunting or hiring someone to collect one might be easier, but still up to the GM. The spell, however, is a lot easier to come by, and no longer needs a piece of the creature. Still, I have collected a pair of hag heads, and some body fluids of another that escaped.
I like this item:
I created an item for the 2011 Superstar contest that might help here:
Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven
GM likes it too, but as it grants standard coven SLAs, won't fly.
As for the original post: See if the DM will tone down the weather manipulation a bit but still provide it for you. Always having good winds on your ship seems to be beneficial from a gameplay standpoint, and would make sense for a Coven to do on the sea. Plus, will get you places much faster, which is always a bonus.
I'll pass along your post to see what he thinks of it.
The way it's written, these Spell-Like Abilities are cast whenever the Coven wants--ie: an unlimited number of times per day, and with no component cost. That IS more than a bit broken; probably a good idea to limit everything to 1/day above, say, 3rd or 4th level, and 3/day for every ability less than that.
I have no objection to limiting use. Question is what is reasonable.
Blight makes no sense in this setting. Replace it with some other Sorc/Wiz/Witch spell of around 4th or 5th level. If you want a non-combat-specific one and don't mind the extra work, I highly recommend "Harrowing". It has a witchy feel what with the Harrow deck, and will fit when done daily as part of the voyage to determine one's close fate. If the Hag is coerced or mind-controlled, she might even use snarky comments like "Hmmm... I'm pretty sure there is much suffering in your future!" or "I forsee that you will bleed heavily this day!" or the like while still granting you the effects.
Blight might well work on a sargasso sea, if the plant life is all one plant of great size. Or it might be changed to affect aquatic life rather than plant life. The replace with Harrow is a nice idea. When I read your quoted hag, I thought of Yoda speaking: "Suffer much in future will you." and "Bleed much you will this day." Gotta use this if I get a real (or simulated) hag someday.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance works fine as a method of scouting, and probably should remain unchanged, aside from making it 3/Day. Use this to 'spot' details on other ships, or simply 'move' the viewing distance that the guy up in the Crow's Nest would otherwise have for spotting ships or land at a distance (ie: Target the sensor 'straight up' at its maximum range will result in an extra mile or two of viewing distance from the ship, and constitutes an 'obvious' location for targeting the spell). Helps to have high Perception on the one using it, obviously.
One comment the GM had was about unlimited clairvoyance would not work well for the game. So this might have to go X/day. Biggest problem with the spell is the fixed viewpoint. Maybe I could swing a variable viewpoint rather than unlimited per day.
Commune seems fine if the DM doesn't mind, otherwise, bump it down to a lower-level divination 'answer finding' spell with more uses. Shouldn't be more than 1/day as Commune, though.
As a witch "patron" is powerful, but not necessarily a deity, that would be the appropriate one contacted. Use should be limited, as you don't want to annoy the patron.
Control Weather I tackled above. 1/Day tops. If this seems broken, reduce it to Control Winds instead (also 1/Day), in which case it can be used to skirt the edge of a Sargasso or ensure that the boat has maximum winds for a single combat.
With a fixed location, and slow change, it is not that useful for travel. Much better for combat, to set the stage. I could see Gust of Wind at will, as that lasts a round, and takes a full round action of three or more witches. It's use to fill the sails with wind could be used to drive the ship, but would tire the coven after a while.
Dream seems very witchy and not combat-oriented, so it's in no danger of imbalance. It also seems to be a REALLY nice method of free long-distance communication. Work with NPC's so you know their sleep schedules or have arranged 'nap times' for communication.
Already got Irrisen Mirror Sight going for my followers. It allows two way visual (no audio) for 1 minute per level. This would be nicer.
Forcecage does seem powerful, but is very limited range. I don't know what to swap with, but if it's 1/Day, you don't really need to. Its an emergency option for when your Hag is targeted by assassins, which will come up at some point. Alternatively, see if the DM will swap it for Wall of Force and use that during ship battles or at least to absorb the opening volley you would otherwise take... or to limit an enemy ship's movement options (force them to ram it, basically, then ram them and board).
An enemy already hit us with a wall of force. Time for payback. :-)
Reincarnate seems to be the only truly broken power. Unlimited free resurrection attempts is kind of cheesy. I don't know what to replace with it though. DM may want to allow it simply so that HE doesn't have to come up with some way of providing for your character's to find rezzing if they don't have it with them. Plus, the random race thing may cause problems.
At 9th level, access to a 4th level spell is not an issue. We already have a druid in the party, and it is on the witch spell list. Bypassing the component cost is not a big issue. Dealing with the negative levels is a bigger issue to me. Restoration immediately take care of one, but you have to wait a week for the next one. It also has a cost. It is not on the witch list or the coven SLA list. No freebee there.
Speak With Dead is fine. You have to bring the body back to the Hag, though, so good luck with that. At least that forces the team to think about how they want to use this, and on what they want to waste it. 1/Day seems a good limit, as it provides an option but forces careful choice.
It also has the limit of no new information until a week passes, so it is self limiting.
Veil--see Mirage Arcana above. Initially for party use, but once the fun wears off or it seems broken, someone finds out about the Hag, and she has to use this pretty much 24/7 to avoid notice and dodge scrying attempts.
Hat of disguise avoids scrying cheaply and easier.
Vision--Perfectly fine, another method of arcane augury. I recommend making it 1/Day however. Also, as a side note, I recommend modifying the heap of "Coven SLA's" so that they can NOT be cast while Fatigued. Now, while they MAY have access to this ability, it will likely be the last one used in a day... which serves the DM well, as before they rest each night the players can use this ability to help find the next 'link' the adventure--where they have to go, to find a certain NPC or monster or treasure, etc, and then set course for that the next day.
I think the addition of a 10 minute ritual to set up the 'coven' magic might handle the combat use easily. Available out of combat at will, but not available in combat.
Hope some of that helps your DM out. As mentioned, the main problem to the balance is all that being 'free unlimited use'. Narrow it down to X/day and things get much easier. If the DM is still worried, limit it to Y freebies per day, where Y is the number of members in the Coven. Now they have to pick and choose more carefully while having lots of options. Either way though, this seems like it could make the adventure quite fun to have a Coven on board a boat, and I may rip this idea for one of my own campaigns.
Good luck!
Hope my GM likes your ideas. This is what I have been looking for, in the OP.
Folks: keep the ideas coming.
/cevah
Problem is that with Rules as Written, player characters aren't really meant to be able to get in covens;Actually, the Simulacrum spell is core, and works fine to acquire an anchor for a coven.
Remember that Simulacrum says "The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
Do they get the coven anchor ability at half their normal HD? I haven't seen anything official on this, but I wouldn't count on it.
the Coven Hex and the Accursed Bloodline of Sorceror (or Eldritch Heritage) seem like afterthoughts (and as already noted above, they don't let you be a Coven Anchor).So lets fix it.
By the way, I half-goofed on Accursed Bloodline -- its coven ability is the Bloodline Arcana, not something you can get by the Eldritch Heritage feat tree, which gives you Bloodline Powers, but does not give you the Bloodline Arcana.
For fixing, Arturius Fischer's post between yours and this one is a step in the right direction.
Furthermore, the Covens all seem to have the same level of powers regardless of who their members are, with the exception that a "Blood Hag" causes certain Coven spell-like abilities to be substituted (but always the same substitution), with no regard to the members' levels.While the SLAs are pretty fixed, the CL and DC do vary based upon the members.
In the entry in d20pfsrd, it says "animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision" -- SOME DC's vary with HD, but an awfully large subset of them don't.
Unlike D&D 3.5 (which gave alignments for most of them as only "Usually Chaotic Evil", the rules as written don't even provide for a Changeling to remain non-evil through metamorphosis (although allegedly Wrath of the Righteous gives a chance to redeem a Demon, which is arguably even harder, so don't give up completely on this possibility).I think I saw that, but cannot find it now. Link?
I am pretty sure the Pathfinder relevant notes USED TO BE at the entry in d20pfsrd. But both this and the equivalent entry in Archives of Nethys seem to have had text deleted, not just what I referred to above, but also the note about the metamorphosis being a horrific ritual, and about coven "culture" (as it were). PathfinderWiki didn't have exact corresponding entries, but seems to have mutated accordingly as well, perhaps coincident with reformatting these entries into their new format that I don't like as much as the old one. However, if you look in the individual monster entries, none of them leave significant room for redemption.
In contrast, in the corresponding D&D 3.5 SRD entry, note that the alignments are "Usually chaotic evil", except in the separate "Night Hag" entry, for which the alignment is "Always neutral evil".
Problem is that with Rules as Written, player characters aren't really meant to be able to get in covens;Actually, the Simulacrum spell is core, and works fine to acquire an anchor for a coven.Remember that Simulacrum says "The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
Do they get the coven anchor ability at half their normal HD? I haven't seen anything official on this, but I wouldn't count on it.
The coven SLAs are available to all hags, and not pegged to HD or levels. Hags range from 4HD (Sea Hag) to 18HD (Pit Hag). Since it is not tied, I don't see why it would be affected.
Furthermore, the Covens all seem to have the same level of powers regardless of who their members are, with the exception that a "Blood Hag" causes certain Coven spell-like abilities to be substituted (but always the same substitution), with no regard to the members' levels.While the SLAs are pretty fixed, the CL and DC do vary based upon the members.In the entry in d20pfsrd, it says "animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision" -- SOME DC's vary with HD, but an awfully large subset of them don't.
... The save DCs are Charisma-based, and function as if with a Charisma score of 16 unless one of the hags has a higher Charisma score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that hag's Charisma modifier.
Unlike D&D 3.5 (which gave alignments for most of them as only "Usually Chaotic Evil", the rules as written don't even provide for a Changeling to remain non-evil through metamorphosis (although allegedly Wrath of the Righteous gives a chance to redeem a Demon, which is arguably even harder, so don't give up completely on this possibility).I think I saw that, but cannot find it now. Link?I am pretty sure the Pathfinder relevant notes USED TO BE at the entry in d20pfsrd. But both this and the equivalent entry in Archives of Nethys seem to have had text deleted, not just what I referred to above, but also the note about the metamorphosis being a horrific ritual, and about coven "culture" (as it were). PathfinderWiki didn't have exact corresponding entries, but seems to have mutated accordingly as well, perhaps coincident with reformatting these entries into their new format that I don't like as much as the old one. However, if you look in the individual monster entries, none of them leave significant room for redemption.
In contrast, in the corresponding D&D 3.5 SRD entry, note that the alignments are "Usually chaotic evil", except in the separate "Night Hag" entry, for which the alignment is "Always neutral evil".
Did some more looking. We were both looking at Player Character Races, when we should have looked at the Bestiary.
When a hag of any sort conceives a child with a man, the result is a changeling. The male parent is usually eaten or killed by his partner before he can see the offspring, or else flees the area in shame upon discovering the true nature of his lover, and the hag herself interacts with the child just long enough to set it on the stoop of some unsuspecting family or temple. Depending on the race of her father, a changeling can resemble any type of humanoid, including dwarves, gnomes, and even orcs and goblins.
A changeling and her new family are never aware of the strange child’s true parents, but in most cases everyone involved is keenly aware that there is something odd about the frail child with the ghostly pallor. Even the young girl herself can easily see that she possesses abilities others do not—powers that are subtle at younger ages and only truly begin to manifest themselves when she reaches adolescence. It is around puberty that the changeling begins to hear what hags refer to as “the call,” a hypnotic, spiritual voice that only she can hear and that beckons her to travel. To where, the changeling does not know, but the underlying prospect of finding out her true origins is often enough to drive the girl to seek out the source of this mystical voice.
The voice is in fact that of the changeling’s birth mother, who forms a coven with two others hags in order to summon her child back to her, now that she is old enough to fully transform into a hag. This transformative ritual is a barbaric one that only the most determined changelings willingly go through; upon arriving at the coven, it is usually too late to turn back for changelings who were merely drawn to the voice by curiosity. Those who seek power, however, identify with the hags, and happily go through the ordeal in order to unlock their dormant abilities. Regardless of her desires, though, a changeling who has undergone the transformation cannot go back; once she becomes a hag, she remains a hag, and her mind turns as wicked as her form has turned hideous.
Changelings who ignore the call eventually cease to hear it. In this case, a hag mother sometimes disguises herself and ventures into civilization, seeking out her daughter. If she finds her, she lures the girl back to the coven, where she can perform the ritual of transformation. The process of performing the call or physically retrieving the changeling is taxing, though, and many hags find it easier to simply lure in another mate and birth another changeling in hopes that this one will heed the ever tantalizing call.
From Pathfinder 43: Haunting of Harrowstone
/cevah
In the entry in d20pfsrd, it says "animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision" -- SOME DC's vary with HD, but an awfully large subset of them don't.
Seeing this list prompted me to double check, and I found that while bestow curse is 3rd Witch and 4th Wizard, the coven gets it as 4th per the DC. Odd.
Assumed Cha 16 -> +3 mod, so 4th spell DC = 10 + 4 + 3 = 17. All other spells with listed DC work OK as well, I just missed bestow curse.
/cevah
My bad on the DC's -- I keep forgetting that DCs DON'T normally (ever?) include the caster's level, just the spell level and the primary casting modifier and a constant. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that Covens still get the same DCs regardless of Hit Dice, because creatures having class levels with the number of Hit Dice available to vanilla Coven members wouldn't even be able to cast spells of the higher levels (and thus DCs) that a Coven can cast, and getting beefier Coven members (or even an actual high-level Witch or Sorcerer) makes no difference to this.
The Bestow Curse DC is probably at the Sorcerer/Wizard level because it was probably set before the Witch class came out, and probably assumed that Covens worked more like Sorcerers (hence the Charisma-based DCs). Of course, since having the spell level be higher increases the DC, and since the number of uses isn't limited with the way Covens currently work, it doesn't hurt them to continue use the spell at the higher level (and actually helps them slightly).
With regard to fixing the Coven/Witchblood situation to make it more accessible to Player Characters, Arturius Fischer's post above is a step in the right direction for the Coven part. For the character part, how about something like what Drow can do to upgrade themselves into Noble Drow through a feat tree? (Only thing missing from the latter is upgrading the ability scores -- not a big deal for Noble Drow vs common Drow, but would be sorely needed for Changelings undergoing metamorphosis, as well as for anything analogous like a Tiefling undergoing fiendish metamorphosis, since in both cases the ability scores of the full-fledged monsters are generally a LOT higher, and if player characters can get there at all without wearing magic items they can normally only do so by serious dumping of other ability scores.) Alternatively (or maybe in addition), one could use Prestige Classes or even Archetypes that do this.