Witch 'Coven' hex questions


Rules Questions


apologies if this has been covered before (my searches didn't return anything directly on point) but I've got a couple players considering playing a coven of witches for skull and shackles. so here goes:

Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.

questions:

1. does the coven need an actual hag to form the coven, or does it just need more than one witch who has the coven hex in order for this to work? the wording is a bit vague. plus, I highly doubt the usefulness of a hex that requires a player group to somehow attract and keep the services of an NPC monster.

2. assuming the coven doesn't need an actual hag to form said coven, does the coven gain the actual 'hag coven' spells and abilities or do they just get the bonuses listed in the coven hex? those powers of a hag coven are pretty hard core. seems a bit much to give a low ranking level 2 or 3 coven of witches a massive power boost like that.

thanks in advance for any advice/suggestions!


1. From what it seems to say RAW, you need a hag to start the coven. However, it only requires that the coven have a hag in order to join it. After that, arguably you could maintain the coven w/o any hags at all... Barring that, guess you'll need the leadership feat to get a hag. :)

2. That is probably why they required having a hag to join. Seems as though they get the coven spells and abilities. The aid another thing is "in addition." Also...that's a ridiculously weaksauce benefit for the trouble of taking the hex and joining a coven if that was all you got. This wasn't a very well balanced hex IMO, kinda shifts between worthless and broken w/o any middle ground.

Side note, don't forget that a Hexcrafter Magus can also taken Coven hex, and an Accursed bloodline Sorc gets a bloodline power functionally the same as that hex. So you can make the party w/o them all being the same class.


The Rules under the Hag description states that there have to be at least 3 hags, but a Witch with this Hex can replace one of those Hags. In the case of your players I'd say they'd have to have at least 1 Hag of any type & the 3 of them could start a Coven for all 3 of them.

I would say you could possibly do it with 3 witches who all have this hex, but that would be a GM Fiat decision.

Silver Crusade

Alternately, you could have other monstrous coven-completers that fit the general theme of your PC witches. They could possibly also bring alternate coven spells to the table.

Nymphs, lillendi, medusas, certain genies...

edit-Skull and Shackles? Nereid! Or a Cecaelia witch...


The way I read it, you get the coven ability in the hag description.

The addition might be worth it, even without hag, boosting caster level for spells are useful for a limited resource making long lasting spells harder to dispel and increase the effect of their spells. Increasing the caster level of hexes, presumably means you can get earlier access to cure moderate, actual flight or greater penalties/buffs with a little cooperative magic.

it seems a fine use of a feat/hex, if the aid another actions of multiple witches stack it is pretty sweet, just my opinion ofcourse..


Aid another bonuses stack IIRC, so this hex is good with two witches in party and can become very powerful with more than two witches... Let's say +5 to caster level (three witches and their three hexcrafter magi cohorts...)


If you use the cohort idea, I'd suggest making them take the Teamwork feat for Allied Spellcaster which would allow for an even better bonus to assist the group.


A party of five 1st level witches with the coven hex....

is a very scary idea....

Lets make them human.
they all have the coven hex

they all start with different spells, they then use the familiars to make sure everyone has all the spells in a mutual list!

They take the extra hex feat (twice)!

So the different hexes are
1. misfortune
2. slumber
3. flight
4. healing hex
5. tongues

With the aid another action being used at the right times
The party has access to
Really jacked up saves versus the misfortune and slumber hexes
the ability to have a flying PC!
Cure moderate wounds
comprehend languages / tongues spell


Mr. Quick wrote:

1. does the coven need an actual hag to form the coven, or does it just need more than one witch who has the coven hex in order for this to work? the wording is a bit vague. plus, I highly doubt the usefulness of a hex that requires a player group to somehow attract and keep the services of an NPC monster.

From running the Carrion Crown AP I know the following

CC AP:
The two witches in the 5th book have formed a coven with a hag. The hag is at the time of the book "dead" and the witches do not have the ability to utilize their coven spells. One of the witches is tired of trying to bring the old hag back to life and wants to have a new hag whom she can control join the coven instead.

Whether that transmits into RAW, RAI of just fluff is up to you.

"The coven must contain at least one hag" seems to mean that to me that it would stop function if there are 0 hags in the coven.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I get the *feeling* that it was created for NPC villain witches and that the intention was to require at least one actual hag to join with witches with the coven hex.

A common way I have seen to achieve this with PCs is to take Leadership and get a hag cohort (provided the GM would allow it)

However, I see what you are saying. It can be read as a group of witches with this hex can form their own coven as they count as hags.

To me it makes thematic sense for witches to form covens without a hag. They do that in folklore and fantasy all the time.


Allied Spellcaster and coven hex ability to aid another... Ouch.

Dark Archive

KenderKin wrote:

A party of five 1st level witches with the coven hex....

is a very scary idea....

Lets make them human.
they all have the coven hex

they all start with different spells, they then use the familiars to make sure everyone has all the spells in a mutual list!

They take the extra hex feat (twice)!

So the different hexes are
1. misfortune
2. slumber
3. flight
4. healing hex
5. tongues

With the aid another action being used at the right times
The party has access to
Really jacked up saves versus the misfortune and slumber hexes
the ability to have a flying PC!
Cure moderate wounds
comprehend languages / tongues spell

Exactly, this is why we rated the Coven hex so highly in the bubble bubble witches guide.

When used correctly as a group you can easily make your spells & hexes obscenely overpowered for the level encounters you meet. Flight, Vanish and Every available spell at 1st-2nd level is a massive advantage and makes nearly every encounter a cakewalk.

As for the Hag issue, your witch counts as a hag for JOINING a HAG'scoven you need the hags to start the coven. Until you find a real hag's coven the only thing this hex gives you is the ability to buff your caster level. It doesn't grant you the potent spells/abilities that a real hag brings to a coven.You need to recruit a real hag to get those abilities and I'd recommend getting one as soon as possible.
At-will Animate Dead, Clairvoyance and Reincarnate are way to powerful to not take advantage of.


I am looking at the coven rules and wonder if they were intended as at-will powers. In 3.5 these spell-like abilities (well, some of them, as covey had less of them) were usable three times per day. Pathfinder does not state daily limit but also does not describes them as at-will powers. Was it deliberate or omission?


ive always wondered of a group of witch/cursed sorceres/hex magus with the aid as a swift action feat would work. but the pure casters cant get it until lvl 13


Drejk wrote:
I am looking at the coven rules and wonder if they were intended as at-will powers. In 3.5 these spell-like abilities (well, some of them, as covey had less of them) were usable three times per day. Pathfinder does not state daily limit but also does not describes them as at-will powers. Was it deliberate or omission?

I'd sat deliberate if I were to guess.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

see, I think I'd like to see a witch coven in action player characters, but I really don't like the idea that they NEED an NPC monster in order for it to work. that seems like a wasted hex, and rather limiting thematically speaking (c'mon! witch covens rock! and it's awesome for players to make a party of witches and go do witchy things).

ok, so lets venture into territory that's different from RAW. perhaps the coven can still be formed however...they don't get ALL the hag coven abilities unless they've got an actual hag into the coven. they 'only' get the hex ability as listed in the description - a caster level boost. that's actually not a bad balance, least when I think about it.

hmm.


If you're gonna break from the RAW a bit you might as well use a more thematically correct idea & make a couple hexes & spells directly from the Witches spell lists to fit with it.


Mr. Quick wrote:

see, I think I'd like to see a witch coven in action player characters, but I really don't like the idea that they NEED an NPC monster in order for it to work. that seems like a wasted hex, and rather limiting thematically speaking (c'mon! witch covens rock! and it's awesome for players to make a party of witches and go do witchy things).

ok, so lets venture into territory that's different from RAW. perhaps the coven can still be formed however...they don't get ALL the hag coven abilities unless they've got an actual hag into the coven. they 'only' get the hex ability as listed in the description - a caster level boost. that's actually not a bad balance, least when I think about it.

hmm.

Just the caster level boost seems RAW to me, I still do not think it is a bad deal, very useful for castings of hexes and spells outside of combat and still a fair option to use in combat.

Long lasting spells will at the very least be harder to dispel which in turn will make all their spells harder to dispel, the +2 caster level when action economy isn't much of an issue is a good deal, possibly made better by allied spellcaster feat for +4 caster level on spells, three witches can probably do worse if they set their mind to it, just saying it probably is plenty powerful as it is.

Perhaps at higher level you can allow them to steal/loot a powerful item from an actual hag coven giving them the ability to perform coven magic, perhaps growing more powerful as they advance in level.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32, 2012 Top 4

I created an item for the 2011 Superstar contest that might help here:
Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven

Liberty's Edge

The flavour is extremely nice, Tom, but I fear what access to the Coven powers for a group of Pc would do.

What is the value of unlimited use of : "animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision."?
The effect of being capable to cast Mind blank on every member of the party, every follower, every mount and animal companion without expending even a single spell slot?

The problem isn't the item but the coven powers. they can wreak havoc to a campaign.


You don't even need lots of witches for the coven.
A sorcerer with the accursed bloodline get's the same a the coven hex for her bloodline arcana:
Bloodline Arcana: You count as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever you are within 30 feet of another sorcerer with this bloodline or a witch with the coven hex, you can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other spellcaster’s caster level for 1 round.

And I would let a changeling count as a hag for that ability. They are half-hags after all.

So a Witch, a sorcerer and a changeling could form a coven.


Diego Rossi wrote:


The problem isn't the item but the coven powers. they can wreak havoc to a campaign.

And that right there is the problem. I like the idea of my players forming a witch coven. thematically, it works in all kinds of ways. I just see two obstacles - the RAW seem to indicated that a coven needs an actual hag in order for the coven to work and secondly that the coven powers are way over powered for lower level covens.

i'm not sure how to address those questions yet.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Coven powers:

Animate dead: 3rd/4th level spell with built-in HD limit of controlled undeads. Two problems arise: who controls the created undead? Do they count against coven members limits, do they count against the most powerful coven member limit? Are they on a separate HD limit of the coven? If so, do they roam uncontrolled when coven separates? The second problem is that as a at-will spell-like ability it overrides the need for costly materials. Maybe a houserule that coven still needs costly material components to cast coven spell-like abilities would be in place?

Baleful polymorph: Potentially overbalanced if used at will, but this effect is somewhat lessened by the complexity of coordinating casting between three or more coven members which gives an increased chance of disruption. Still, might be too powerful as it allows the coven to get rid of defeated and restrained enemies en masse.

Blight: this spell is so situational that I have no problem with it. In fact I think that this spell should be replaced with diminish plants.

Bestow curse: Similar problem as baleful polymorph - there would be problems with using this in combat without proper screen of minions protecting the casters but its uses out of combat while interacting with NPC are enormous.

Clairaudience/voyance: Not a problem. I still think that with its range and duration it should have shorter casting time.

Charm monster: Without limit on number of creatures affected at the same time it screams player abusable! Even for GMs that roleplay charms correctly as opposed to mind-control.

Commune: Overrides the need for material component which is a primary control device of this spell. Much depends upon the GM roleplaying the entity contacted. I would think about replacing it with contact other plane...

Control weather: I'd say that it does not stack with itself so casting it at will is not as glamorous as it looks like... Until the coven gets their hands on teleportation or other form of fast travel and starts using it on continental scale. The primary problem here is that coven might get access to this spell much earlier than its spell level would allow.

Dream: highly dependent on the recipient.

Forcecage: costly components and low level access to high level spell again. Coordinated effort at casting it in combat is worth the effects.

Mind blank: 8th level spell at will? Yes, please! At least it isn't 3.5 version that granted immunity to mind-affecting effects (ok, personally I preferred 3.5 version to PF).

Mirrage arcana: I can live with that. I know PCs will find horrific ways of abusing it but at least this will be creative use of illusion.

Reincarnate: I am not afraid of this spell - yes, getting it as a spell-like ability will save 1,000 gp per casting but there are negative levels to be removed and if players try to overuse it by killing and reincarnating allies until they get desired race they will be visited by aeon, inevitable and psychopomp. Possibly at the same time.

Speak with dead: No problem for me. They won't be able to talk to the same guy twice in short time anyway.

Veil: Personally I think that it is one of the spells that should be downgraded. It is quite useful at time and it pains me that dedicated illusionists can't get it earlier.

Vision: The spell has built-in limitation by making the caster fatigued. Still, the coven can share the responsibility of firing it multiple times between themselves before dropping unconscious so it is another case of high level spell accessible early.

Overall, I would like to see some ceremonial requirements of gathering coven and attuning all the participants to each other before they can start slinging their spell-like abilities left and right. Maybe some 10 minute or 1 hour ritual should be performed during which the coven members draw a circle, consecrate the area, purify themselves, etc, that creates bond between them that lasts until they leave the circle. I would add a requirement of ritual dismissal of the circle under the risk of magic going awry if is not done properly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mr. Quick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


The problem isn't the item but the coven powers. they can wreak havoc to a campaign.

And that right there is the problem. I like the idea of my players forming a witch coven. thematically, it works in all kinds of ways. I just see two obstacles - the RAW seem to indicated that a coven needs an actual hag in order for the coven to work and secondly that the coven powers are way over powered for lower level covens.

i'm not sure how to address those questions yet.

If you want your players to be able to do this thematically then just modify the coven spell list, or limit how many times a power can be used. A

s a GM there isn't anything wrong with allowing 3 witches to form a coven so long as whatever bonuses it gives them are balanced for your game.

Dark Archive

You missed one of the more powerful aspects of this ability Drekj. Remember that many of these spells are caster level limited but if the coven uses the hex ability to artificially bump their caster levels when using them then each of these potent abilities becomes even MORE powerful. imagine a 5th level coven casting animate dead as an 11th (or higher) level caster.

Drejk wrote:

Coven powers:

Animate dead: 3rd/4th level spell with built-in HD limit of controlled undeads. Two problems arise: who controls the created undead? Do they count against coven members limits, do they count against the most powerful coven member limit? Are they on a separate HD limit of the coven? If so, do they roam uncontrolled when coven separates? The second problem is that as a at-will spell-like ability it overrides the need for costly materials. Maybe a houserule that coven still needs costly material components to cast coven spell-like abilities would be in place?

Baleful polymorph: Potentially overbalanced if used at will, but this effect is somewhat lessened by the complexity of coordinating casting between three or more coven members which gives an increased chance of disruption. Still, might be too powerful as it allows the coven to get rid of defeated and restrained enemies en masse.

Blight: this spell is so situational that I have no problem with it. In fact I think that this spell should be replaced with diminish plants.

Bestow curse: Similar problem as baleful polymorph - there would be problems with using this in combat without proper screen of minions protecting the casters but its uses out of combat while interacting with NPC are enormous.

Clairaudience/voyance: Not a problem. I still think that with its range and duration it should have shorter casting time.

Charm monster: Without limit on number of creatures affected at the same time it screams player abusable! Even for GMs that roleplay charms correctly as opposed to mind-control.

Commune: Overrides the need for material component which is a primary control device of this spell. Much depends upon the GM roleplaying the entity contacted. I would think about replacing it with contact other plane...

Control weather: I'd say that it does not stack with itself so casting it at will is not as glamorous as it looks like... Until the coven...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
You missed one of the more powerful aspects of this ability Drekj. Remember that many of these spells are caster level limited but if the coven uses the hex ability to artificially bump their caster levels when using them then each of these potent abilities becomes even MORE powerful. imagine a 5th level coven casting animate dead as an 11th (or higher) level caster.

Invoking coven spell-like abilities requires taking a full-round action from coven members - they won't be able to use their coven hex to augment caster level at the same time. Of course covens with more three members can use additional members to increase CL of the spell-like ability instead of being part of the casting coven (imagine all those 1st or 2nd level witches whose sole role is to take coven hex and bump CL of higher ranking witches, hell, let's make a party of 5th level characters where everyone takes one level of witch and coven hex just to boost magic of the sole full level witch...).

Of course third level witches capable of forming coven already bring problems as the CL of their spell-like abilities is 9th before any augmentations are applied.

Note that, of the coven spell-like abilities animate dead is the most affected by increased level (as it increases number of undeads created, number of undeads controlled and amount of gold saved on material components). Remaining spell-like abilities benefit from increased CL much less than animate dead: charm monster increases duration... However, with at will casting it can be repeatedly cast on the same subject before previous duration passes guaranteeing that the victim finally fails the save. Commune without costly component can be technically recast until required amount of answers is gained (barring angered/bored deity refusing to speak with PCs anymore).

Personally, I think that there already should be more mechanics allowing characters to bump caster level of spells out of combat by extending casting time, adding power components and performing fancy rituals. I hoped for something like that when 4th edition promised ritual casting but I got seriously disappointed with execution.

Liberty's Edge

Mr. Quick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


The problem isn't the item but the coven powers. they can wreak havoc to a campaign.

And that right there is the problem. I like the idea of my players forming a witch coven. thematically, it works in all kinds of ways. I just see two obstacles - the RAW seem to indicated that a coven needs an actual hag in order for the coven to work and secondly that the coven powers are way over powered for lower level covens.

i'm not sure how to address those questions yet.

I am running a Kingmaker campaign and I would like to give the possibility to found a coven to the witch in my playing group.

So any suggestion on alternate spell like abilities or other stuff for a non evil coven would be interesting. Ahorsewithnoname suggestion is already a interesting idea.


Something like coven level that would be improved by number and witch level of members - with precedence for level over number so the coven of ten Fighter 9/Witch 1 won't be more powerful than three Witches 10, or even one Witch 4 and two Witch 3...

As to what spell-like abilities it should provide: animate dead is obviously on its way out. Bestow curse might or might not, depending upon the GM stance on this, so do baleful polymorph. While there is no exact thematic need for getting rid of them, I would replace some of the others, like forcecage too.
For with-based covens, maybe selecting spell-like abilities based upon patrons would be right?


I'd just put HD restrictions on access to the more potent high level spells. Mostly agree w/ Drejk's synopsis of each of the spells. I do think having 3+ witches coordinate full round actions on a melee touch spell (bestow curse) is pretty pointless, especially when said witches have tons of other will save effects already, many of which having unlimited daily use (hexes).


Would a Hag Simulacrum suffice?


VRMH wrote:
Would a Hag Simulacrum suffice?

I think I just broke my brain.


Diego Rossi wrote:


I am running a Kingmaker campaign and I would like to give the possibility to found a coven to the witch in my playing group.
So any suggestion on alternate spell like abilities or other stuff for a non evil coven would be interesting. Ahorsewithnoname suggestion is already a interesting idea.

There is a "witch" located somewhere in the greenbelt who is no actual witch but a half-hag (changeling) sorceress, at least that's how I understood it in the game I'm playing in.

You could rule that a half-hag is enough to found a coven. More so if the changeling has the bloodline that let's her count as a hag.

So your pc witch and the changeling need another person who counts as a hag somehow but there are possibilities. And then they can make their coven.

If at least one member of the coven is an npc who is not adventuring with the players I don't think its too powerful, because it costs some time every time to travel to her hut to use the coven abilities.


Umbranus wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


I am running a Kingmaker campaign and I would like to give the possibility to found a coven to the witch in my playing group.
So any suggestion on alternate spell like abilities or other stuff for a non evil coven would be interesting. Ahorsewithnoname suggestion is already a interesting idea.

There is a "witch" located somewhere in the greenbelt who is no actual witch but a half-hag (changeling) sorceress, at least that's how I understood it in the game I'm playing in.

You could rule that a half-hag is enough to found a coven. More so if the changeling has the bloodline that let's her count as a hag.

So your pc witch and the changeling need another person who counts as a hag somehow but there are possibilities. And then they can make their coven.

If at least one member of the coven is an npc who is not adventuring with the players I don't think its too powerful, because it costs some time every time to travel to her hut to use the coven abilities.

It would still be effectively a houserule, if you want that you can just rule that you do not need a hag at all. I think it would make for poor balance though.


It seems like this hex is meant more for NPCs.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shalafi2412 wrote:
It seems like this hex is meant more for NPCs.

One of my few grievances about the witch class is there too many options meant for villain NPCs when there should be more PC options.


Here's an idea. This would have to be a homebrew or house rule but, three witches of the same level as an encounter would be by the CR rules 3 levels higher than each individual CR, so maybe allow them in concert to cast spells as a 3 -level-higher witch?


Mojorat wrote:
ive always wondered of a group of witch/cursed sorceres/hex magus with the aid as a swift action feat would work. but the pure casters cant get it until lvl 13

Swift Aid:

'Swift Aid' wrote:
Benefit: As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action, granting your ally either a +1 bonus on his next attack roll or a +1 bonus to his AC.

It looks as though that won't work. One could argue the whole

' As a swift action, you can attempt the aid another action '

...but then again there is the whole
' , granting your ally either a +1 bonus on his next attack roll or a +1 bonus to his AC. '

thoughts?


Stronger covens get better spells; that's precedent for weaker covens get weaker spells in my book. Lesser animate dead, 2HD limit, obeys commands of all coven members: you've got a skeleton porter. Amusing, but hardly going to break your game even at first level.


***Raise Thread***

This is worth it.

Advanced Class Guide pg. 231: Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven

Yeah!!

/cevah

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Witch 'Coven' hex questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.