GM BPC TK2's Excellent PFS Adventure

Game Master Black Powder Chocobo

Yes; while it doesn't state it directly, the underwater combat rules are written for land-based creatures, or at least to me those without the aquatic or water subtypes. Because aquatic/water subtype creatures can move through water without making Swim checks, I see it as being equivalently under the effects of freedom of movement for the table. I did look and I couldn't find anything hard-fact about this, but a lot of favorable opinions to water elementals and their kin not going through the underwater combat restrictions. If you can find something that says otherwise, please let me know!

@Thunderstealer: Since you don't have a natural swim speed, you'd have to take a Move action to Swim back the 5' which would provoke an AoO; are you ok with that? Regardless, I'll need a DC 10 Swim check to see if you can control yourself underwater to attack and move appropriately.

Belcher moves in to attack the mud elemental... but finds that none of his attacks seem to hurt it. DR that Belcher's attacks are not overcoming

IMHO, freedom of movement >> aquatic/water subtype creatures can move through water without making Swim checks. Belcher currently has aquatic subtype due to seasteed.

I'll take the AoO and try the swimcheck.

Swim: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (2) + 6 = 8

Reroll: 1d20 + 6 + 5 ⇒ (11) + 6 + 5 = 22

Oddly, the underwater combat rules are explicitly written for both land and water based creatures, though it also specifies "land based". There is a table in the prd that shows creatures with swim speeds deal half damage underwater with bludgeoning and slashing attacks. The exception noted is that grapple damage remains the same.

Here is the RAW rules source
Control+F (Underwater Combat)

Environmental Rules

My take (use at your own discretion):
Unless acted on by powerful magic, blunt weapons swing faster through air than water, regardless of the wielder. The rules don't care about the creature's subtype, at least not by RAW.

Meanwhile Faeros is still waiting to see if he will have room to back up and use his spear =P

Engulfing is not grappling; engulf is a separate type of standard action that allows the creature to move into opponent(s) square(s). The creature can attempt an AoO (and not get a Reflex save to avoid the engulf) or simply try to make a Reflex to avoid the engulf). If the Reflex is failed, the creature is engulfed and gains the pinned condition; the engulfing creature does not get the pinning or grappling conditions and thus are not subject to those rules.

Engulf rules

OK. Thanks I learned something. In the absence of those rules I was thinking it was like swallow whole.

It wasn't clear whether Nilfyr gets an attempt to escape the engulf when it happened, because the comment you made was before the init roll. Putting one in here, just in case.
Surprise Round
Grapple: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (14) + 7 = 21 Assuming that wasn't enough

Round 1
Nilfyr fights to escape the mud-creature, then swiftly casts a spell. A magical starknife appears next to the thing and begins attacking.

Standard action: Attempt to break the engulf
Grapple: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26

Swift action (assuming that worked): Use Fervor to cast spiritual weapon
Roll vs. SR: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (19) + 5 = 24
Attack (Spiritual Weapon): 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (2) + 5 = 7
Damage (Spiritual Weapon): 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (1) + 1 = 2

There is also this little bit hidden away in the Fast Play Ship Combat rules...

Fast Play Ship Combat

The rules presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for underwater combat apply to creatures not native to this dangerous environment, such as most PCs

Counterargument: Why does paizo have all the aquatic humanoid races using spears and tridents all the time?

Artemis could you back up a step Faeros burbles with his Water Breathing As he continues to be unable to use his spear.

Sensing this will be a tough fight Artemus summons help. As a standard action he uses three arcane points to summon a crocodile.

The reptile appears flanking with Belcher and bites at the mud thing but cannot get his teeth into it.

bite: 1d20 + 5 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 5 + 2 = 101d8 + 4 ⇒ (7) + 4 = 11

Grab: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (12) + 12 = 24

Also can you remind me what the swim check is simply to move?
After summoning Art tries to back up some.

Swim: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (11) - 1 = 10

@Artemus: It's only a DC 10 Swim check since the water is mostly still, barring the sloshing of combat :)

[ooc]@Thunderstealer: Well, I missed that Belcher got the aquatic subtype. So to me, his attacks will deal full damage...although that pesky DR will still be a problem.

@Faeros: I already linked that section in a previous post actually; it was from d20pfsrd instead of the prd, but it's the same rules. I disagree with you that the underwater combat table rules are written for land and water-based creatures as otherwise the first line about "Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water." is unnecessary otherwise. Even excluding that, I think the other pertinent part is "They apply whenever a character is swimming, walking in chest-deep water, or walking along the bottom of a body of water." To me, the enemy is doing neither of those things. This creature doesn't need to Swim to move through water so it doesn't use the chart. I understand that may seem weird, but this is a creature composed partially of elemental water and, well, again it doesn't make sense to me that it cannot fight effectively in what is essentially its home turf. However, that's also why I'm allowing Belcher to move around and attack freely; since Thunderstealer reminded me of the Aquatic subtype his AC now has, Belcher is as fine as a fish in the water. That is how I'm ruling for now; please PM me if you find a post or a FAQ that proves my ruling wrong and we can continue the debate there :)

@Nilfyr: 1. You did not get a chance to break free from the engulfing during the surprise round. However, good job on the 2nd roll, that worked! Also, using fervor to cast a swift action spell only works on spells that can target you. Since spiritual weapon doesn't have a target (and I doubt you want to target yourself, too), that cannot go off.

Also Nilfyr, since you broke free from the engulfing, you can move yourself anywhere adjacent to the mud creature you wish. I put your icon on top of the mud thing's :)

Nilfyr manages to escape his muddy confines!

Thunderstealer throws caution to the wind and moves into a suitable position to attack!

??? AoO Slam @ Thunderstealer: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (15) + 13 = 28
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (3, 3) + 3 = 9

He gets battered, but returns the favor with a powerful spearing that doesn't seem to fully injure the creature I thought Thunderstealer had a +1 horsechopper, but it seems I'm wrong.

Belcher also moves to attack, but still finds his bite and claws useless against his foe.

Artemus summons some aquatic help, but the creature fails bit the being of mud.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (6 damage)
Nilfyr (8 damage; move into position, move action if you want it)
Thunderstealer (18 damage)
Belcher
Artemus
Faeros (7 damage)

As an aside, I could have sworn that attacking a creature that has engulfed something causes the engulfed creature to take some of the damage... but I cannot find it :P Meh. Moot point now anyway since Nilfyr got out first thing!

No problem with the ruling at all. Just wanted to offer the 2 sources I found. I think the engulf thing is going to vary from creature to creature. The Cloaker for example.

Attacks that hit an engulfing cloaker deal half their damage to the monster and half to the trapped victim.

Faeros steps back to where Artemis had been, uses Bane against elementals, and attacks with his spear.

Ah, right; I read that, then promptly forgot it again. In that case, he will use his move action to better position himself.

Move action: As indicated on map
Swim: 1d20 + 4 - 2 ⇒ (12) + 4 - 2 = 14

Yeah, that may be what I'm thinking (running a scenario with one of those :) The Gibbering Mouther also has its own Engulf text. There was no special text listed for this particular baddie, so I then had to use the Engulf universal monster rule.

As Nilfyr moves into a better position... the mud creature attacks him!

Yes, Combat Reflexes, too!

??? AoO @ Nilfyr: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (19) + 13 = 32
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (1, 4) + 3 = 8

Nilfyr is bludgeoned some more, but escapes into a better spot.

Saving time and rolling Faeros' Swim check to move back )

Faeros Swim: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (18) + 6 = 24

Faeros steps back to spear the creature, but gets slammed in the process!

??? AoO @ Faeros: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (15) + 13 = 28
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (4, 4) + 3 = 11

That attack causes more pain to the Keleshite who counter attacks! The attack is successful, but causes minimal damage.

The mud blob almost bubbles with laughter as Artemus and Faeros back up, gliding through the water and then stretching itself out to reach Faeros AND Artemus!!

??? Slam @ Faeros: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (9) + 13 = 22
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (3, 5) + 3 = 11
??? Slam @ Artemus: 1d20 + 13 - 4 ⇒ (13) + 13 - 4 = 22
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (4, 3) + 3 = 10
Both the arcanist and inquisitor are pounded and the creature reverts back to its more blobous shape.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (19 damage)
Nilfyr (16 damage)
Thunderstealer (18 damage)
Belcher
Artemus (11 damage)
Faeros (28 damage)

Edit: missed the baning; full damage on that! Also, it'd then redirect its attacks somewhat. Corrected!

Magic weapons seem to overcome some of it's defenses

Let's retreat!

Swim: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (17) + 6 = 23

You can attempt to climb up into the room where you smashed the wall out; with the water providing some buoyancy, I'll say it's only a DC 8 check :)

Where should we regroup?
Faeros asks before activating his Agile Feet and withdrawing from the creature

@Faeros: I'm mostly good with that, but since you're deep enough water that you're nearly submerged, I'll also want the DC 10 Swim check; pass and you're ok to withdraw :)

swim: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (6) + 6 = 12
close one

Swim Check: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (14) - 1 = 13

Not happy about being attacked Artemus swims and uses dimensional Slide to go backs the way he came in. 50 feet slide. Meanwhile his crock moves and attacks.

Bite: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (8) + 5 = 131d8 + 4 ⇒ (8) + 4 = 12

Crock is blocking door. If only I could roll half as good as our DM has been doing,

Heh, you guys were on a roll before, and having a +13 bonus certainly helps with this guy :P Maybe this croc is just lazier than the first one you summoned :p

The crocodile nips at the mud thing again, but can't seem to lock its jaws on a pile of moving mud. Meanwhile, Artemus and Faeros make a hasty retreat. @Faeros: Had to move you back a little bit since I realized that the portion of the hallway you had to swim through would be at 1/2 speed even being generous with the Agile Feat, but once you moved up enough that it would be considered difficult terrain you were fine.

Nilfyr, Thunderstealer, and Belcher remain in the room, although the latter two make their way to opening they created in the first elemental's room.

Nilfyr, you're the last one to act, although I think Thunderstealer and Belcher can move a bit more with their Swim check/Swim speed, maybe just Belcher.

I repositioned Art based on Faeros new position.

Not wishing to be left alone with the mud-creature, Nilfyr attempts to follow Thunderstealer up through the previous opening. His panic, however, prevents him from moving at all.

Swim: 1d20 + 4 - 2 ⇒ (3) + 4 - 2 = 5

Swim: 1d20 + 4 - 2 ⇒ (6) + 4 - 2 = 8

maybe just Belcher.

Belcher takes a single move and goes defensive.

Unfortunately, between his bruised, possibly cracked, ribs and some panic, Nilfyr flounders in the water.

Seemingly unafraid of the crocodile, the mud creature shrinks its size to try and slide under the creature and move towards the party members still in the chamber!

??? Acrobatics: 1d20 + 15 ⇒ (20) + 15 = 35

Okay, so maybe my dice ARE hot for this enemy...

Seeing Nilfyr as a helpless guppy waiting to be slain, it moves towards Thunderstealer and tries to engulf the druid in its mass!

Thunderstealer, you can choose to make an AoO with a non-reach weapon or make a DC 17 Reflex save. Pass the save, and you can move yourself 5' in any direction that is still within the mud creature's reach. Your icon is over the mud creature's on the assumption you make the Reflex.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (19 damage)
Nilfyr (16 damage; must make a Swim check or unable to move)
Thunderstealer (18 damage; make an non-reach AoO or DC 17 Reflex)
Belcher
Artemus (11 damage)
Faeros (28 damage)

Delaying Art notes to Faeros I thought they said retreat?

That's what I heard
Faeros replies as he drops his spear into the water, draws his bow and steps forward again, before firing an arrow.

not sure exactly how cover works in the case of engulf, but I'll assume Thunderstealer is giving me a -4 for cover?
(accounting for:cover, deadly aim, coordinated shot)
arrow: 1d20 + 9 - 4 - 1 + 1 ⇒ (15) + 9 - 4 - 1 + 1 = 201d8 + 5 ⇒ (7) + 5 = 12
If Belcher also provides cover, coordinated shot goes away and I get 1 lower attack.

I think Thunderstealer can attack with his reachweapon AND make a reflex save, didn't see any acrobatics check to move through reach ;-)

Horsechopper: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11

Reflex: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (3) + 1 = 4

@Faeros: Engulf won't give a cover, but is Belcher providing at least partial cover and it'll be a -2 for shooting through water. Thunderstealer may provide cover, too, depending on where he ends up if he is not engulfed; so I'll keep your roll for now, but I'll wait to see what happens with Thunderstealer before announcing any results.

CMB to escape: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (11) + 7 = 18
Belcher assist vs 10: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (15) + 4 = 19

And ninja'ed by Thunderstealer!

You are right, I did miss that :P

Thunderstealer tries to fend off the mud enemy, but fails to hit and is now absorbed by the creature!

Faeros fires an arrow that knocks away some mud and gives Thunderstealer a good scare!

Thunderstealer then tries to escape his muddy prison, but flails around helplessly, even with Belcher's help!

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (21 damage, engulfing Thunderstealer)
Nilfyr (16 damage; must make a Swim check or unable to move)
Thunderstealer (18 damage; engulfed, pinned)
Belcher
Faeros (28 damage)
Artemus (11 damage)

I have to say, this is the single most interesting combat I've run for you guys, well at least tied to the one where an efreeti was convinced to switch sides out AND give a wish :P

Faeros replies as he drops his spear into the water, draws his bow and steps forward again, before firing an arrow.

No more bane? Magic Bow right?

Not sure whether you noted this for DR purposes but Faeros's bow is +1. Looks like either I missed something or 3 of my 12 got through?

Note that the crock is a little tougher than I originally noted with Augment Summoning. He is also Celestial so it smites as a swift.

The croc moves to bite at the mud thing and hits this time. Thanks to Smite it gets through DR but it fails to grab.

Bite: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (15) + 5 = 201d8 + 6 + 3 ⇒ (4) + 6 + 3 = 13
Grab: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (3) + 13 = 16

Art moves back into the room and blasts the enemy with Magic Missiles, unaware of its spell resistance.

Magic Missiles: 3d4 + 3 ⇒ (2, 3, 1) + 3 = 9

SR: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (7) + 5 = 12

@Faeros: I missed the magic bow part, so full damage! Thanks for the reminder.

The croc manages to bite the mud creature this time, but does minimal damage and fails to keep it held. Meanwhile, Artemus tries to blast it with magic, but it washes off of it like water.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (34 damage, engulfing Thunderstealer)
Nilfyr (16 damage; must make a Swim check or unable to move)
Thunderstealer (18 damage; engulfed, pinned)
Belcher
Faeros (28 damage)
Artemus (11 damage)

Spellcraft to understand the creature has SR?: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (3) + 13 = 16

Continued stellar rolling...

I would say Kn: Arcana actually, but that's my preference. But yes, the die rolling in this particular battle did take a weird shift after the first round.

Nilfyr should, I think, get an AoO for the mud-thing leaving his threatened area (fauchard, reach weapon), correct?

AoO (+1 Adamantine Fauchard (2H), Power Attack): 1d20 + 9 - 1 ⇒ (6) + 9 - 1 = 14
Damage (+1 Adamantine Fauchard (2H), Power Attack): 1d10 + 7 + 3 ⇒ (5) + 7 + 3 = 15 (halved for slashing weapon)

Nilfyr, seeing Thunderstealer threatened, swims to engage the mud-creature once more.

Move action: As indicated on map
Swim (ACP): 1d20 + 4 - 2 ⇒ (8) + 4 - 2 = 10

Standard action: Attack mudlord
Attack (+1 Adamantine Fauchard (2H), Power Attack, Flanking): 1d20 + 9 - 1 + 2 ⇒ (15) + 9 - 1 + 2 = 25
Damage (+1 Adamantine Fauchard (2H), Power Attack): 1d10 + 7 + 3 ⇒ (5) + 7 + 3 = 15 (halved for slashing weapon)

The croc moves to bite at the mud thing and hits this time.

The croc is next to the creature, so doesn't need to move, so can bite AND tailslap!

@Nilfyr: You would had you not been floundering; since you were, no AoO for you! Albeit with that roll, it wouldn't matter anyway.

@Artemus: The smite failed... this this is not evil, just angry! So no bypassing DR.

@Thunderstealer: Good point, it could have 5' stepped, but it did have to 'move' per se :P

Nilfyr finally gains control and cuts into the mud creature, causing some pain to it this time. Annoyed, the creature sinks closer to the bottom, obscuring it from view topside and then attacks Nilfyr from below as its body compresses against Thunderstealer.

@Faeros: Because it lowered its position in depth, you'll have to move to the edge of the walkway to fire an arrow at the mud thing.

Engulf damage @ Thunderstealer: 1d6 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9

??? slam @ Nilfyr: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (20) + 13 = 33
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (6, 3) + 3 = 12
Crit confirm @ Nilfyr: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (7) + 13 = 20
Extra damage on crit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (6, 2) + 3 = 11

Nilfyr is painfully slammed and falls unconscious from the powerful that attacked his down unders and the half-elf floats unconsciously from internal damage.

The mud thing then turns and backhands the crocodile that nipped it.

??? slam @ Croc: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (8) + 13 = 21
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (4, 2) + 3 = 9

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (41 damage, engulfing Thunderstealer)
Nilfyr (39 damage; unconscious, bleeding out)
Thunderstealer (27 damage; engulfed, pinned)
Belcher
Faeros (28 damage)
Artemus (11 damage)
Croc (9 damage)

Artemus Jarm wrote:

The croc moves to bite at the mud thing and hits this time.

The croc is next to the creature, so doesn't need to move, so can bite AND tailslap!

Excellent. I had not checked the map. Harder than you would think here at work.

Tail Slap: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (15) + 2 = 17

Close, but no cigar on the tail slap! New turn is up! Things are getting dicey, but you are wearing it down!

Okay, did Nilfyr get an AoO that time? Not sure if it was essentially a 5' step or if it actually moved.

Stabilize: 1d20 + 1 - 1 ⇒ (1) + 1 - 1 = 1

5 foot step when it moved, just a bir of a 3 dimensional one.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Thunderstealer will grow claws and maw again.

"Belcher! Defend yourself and help the croc!" he muffles in Sauran.

"Why is this thing attacking us?" he tries to ask the others.

Belcher will try and assist the croc (to hit) defensively.

vs AC10: 1d20 + 7 - 4 ⇒ (15) + 7 - 4 = 18

Belcher moves to aid his fellow reptile in trying to attack the mud thing, Thunderstealer goes feral. Meanwhile, Nilfyr slowly bleeds out internally.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (41 damage, engulfing Thunderstealer)
Nilfyr (39 damage; unconscious, bleeding out)
Thunderstealer (27 damage; engulfed, pinned)
Belcher
Faeros (28 damage)
Artemus (11 damage)
Croc (9 damage; first attack aided by Belcher)

Faeros moves forward and take another shot.

(Same modifiers as last shot)

arrow: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (8) + 5 = 131d8 + 5 ⇒ (8) + 5 = 13

Edit: Had to burn another agile feat to get good line of sight. I believe my roll is bad enough and my negative modifiers stacked enough that the +1 from point blank shot will be irrelevant.

Faeros fires an arrow, but this one simply floats in the water.

Question - If I summon a Lantern Archon can it act under water without hindrance?

Arc tries another magic Missile but just cannot penetrate the creature's SR.

SR: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (7) + 5 = 123d4 + 3 ⇒ (4, 3, 3) + 3 = 13

The croc, flanking with and aided by Belcher bites at the mudlord and this time manages to both hit and grab on.

Bite: 1d20 + 5 + 2 + 2 ⇒ (13) + 5 + 2 + 2 = 221d8 + 6 ⇒ (8) + 6 = 14
Grab and Death Roll: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (16) + 13 = 291d8 + 9 ⇒ (1) + 9 = 10 Not sure if the creature can be tripped in the water...?

Tail Slap, if possible after the grab: 1d20 + 2 + 2 ⇒ (7) + 2 + 2 = 11

The croc manages to bite and hold onto the mud creature perhaps because there is a muscular form within to grab onto! and tries to spin around, although it doesn't seem to have any effect on the strange elemental. Unfortunately, Artemus' magic seems to be lacking against the vicious enemy.

Yeah, no tripping underwater, same as if it was flying. Still, croc finally did something useful!

Answer- Underwater, no; doesn't have the aquatic/water subtype nor does it even have a swim speed; however since its fly speed is its base speed, it can move 15' with a single Swim check, or 30' with a full-round Swim check

Also Artemus, had to move you so you could see the elemental :)

Forgoing any chance of escape, it instead tries to beat its way free by defeating the crocodile while it crushes Thunderstealer.

Engulf damage: 1d6 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9

??? slam @ crocodile: 1d20 + 13 - 2 ⇒ (14) + 13 - 2 = 25
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (2, 5) + 3 = 10

The crocodile disappears without a sound; the mud creature then turns to smash Belcher!

??? slam @ Belcher: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (3) + 13 = 16
Damage on hit: 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (4, 5) + 3 = 12

But the temporarily aquatic dinosaur easily avoids the swing.

Init Order (bold = up)
Mud thing (45 damage, engulfing Thunderstealer)
Nilfyr (40 damage; unconscious, bleeding out)
Thunderstealer (36 damage; engulfed, pinned, feral)
Belcher
Faeros (28 damage)
Artemus (11 damage)

Edit: Caveat for the lantern archon: the light ray touch attacks will still work just fine underwater since they aren't propelled by typical force. And of course, the aura will affect it.

Croc had 28 hp to start with. And I believe that second attack will miss it with the -2 from being grappled.