Everything Old is New Again (Inactive)

Game Master WhtKnt

Looks like a well-developed world, with a lot of attention to detail. Rolling for stats, and we'll see what looks good!

4d6 ⇒ (3, 1, 5, 3) = 12 = 11
4d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 2, 3) = 11 = 9
4d6 ⇒ (3, 3, 2, 6) = 14 = 12
4d6 ⇒ (5, 5, 1, 6) = 17 = 16
4d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 6, 2) = 15 = 14
4d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 4, 4) = 17 = 14

Seems like solid rolls, perhaps some MAD class?

I'd like to submit my quaint little musketeer, Reigar the gnome. A peculiar little guy with a long lineage of Tinkerers. I can include backstory and more details now in spoiler or later if I get picked up. I have a lot of flexibility to post often and I've done a lot of other PBPs, ranging from the Star Wars Universe to DC Universe and Zombies, of course. I've only played to level three PF in real life and yet to do PBP PFS, but I've dobe my reading and I'm prepared.

Sequin: Good to know that I won't be alone without any way to talk to anybody! Now we just have to make the others understand us...

Don't worry, little elfies. We sturdy folk ne'er could unnerstand ya sing-song even when ya speaking the same tongue =P I'll just point and grunt at ya's, maybe make some pant-o-mime motions with me hands =) Ya's just shoot da baddies and keep da ales comin' and we's get along just dandy!

Not having played with the Wounds/Vigor rules before, I assume characters taking a level of their favored class(es) would be able to choose between an extra skill point and an extra vigor point?

Yes, that is correct.

Talomyr checking in again. The crunch is about 85% done and I have decided to switch to half-elf from human. Background is still forthcoming. Any particular location that is known for banditry or a particularly high half-elf population? (BTW, I'm both pleased and frightened that you have chosen to incorporate the Village of Hommlet.)

Thank you, and RE: banditry...

The Grandwood (the area of trees that encompass Hommlet and Orlane on the map) is well-known as a haven for bandits.

Fear not, I speak Common (Trade I'm assuming) and Elven So I could act as interpritor if selected / needed.

Valenor does have a few monasteries, actually, where he could have received training.

That would work. Perhaps he was abandoned at one as a child, and raised by the monks. I will have to just to appropriate languages and such.

Reigar has been updated. Ready to make friends, be merry, and shoot the baddies.

The lack of time is going to prevent me from giving this the attention it deserves, so I'm not going to waste your time making a character. I'm very impressed with the work you've done, WhtKnt and look forward to following the story.

Good luck, all!

@WhtKnt

The mechanical crunch for my submission is complete (save for purchasing ~30% of my starting gear).

How are half-elves viewed in your world? I know in Golarion they are somewhat shunned due to their half-breed nature. I'm looking for information so I know what to think of his formative years and how that may have influenced who he is at the start of the game. Thanks!

@Lucian

Half-elves are normally well-accepted among humans, who are fascinated by their Olven blood. Among the mixed elves, they are accepted, if not considered kinfolk, but among the more xenophobic races of elves, they are considered half-breeds and lesser beings because of it.

@AinvarG

Thank you for the kind words!

Hmm, this interests me. Let's see if the dice gods will be kind to me.

4d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 3, 2) = 13=11
4d6 ⇒ (1, 5, 6, 3) = 15=14
4d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 5, 1) = 10=9
4d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 5, 6) = 18=15
4d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 6, 3) = 16=13
4d6 ⇒ (5, 6, 4, 1) = 16=15

Not bad, could be worse...I think I'm just crazy enough to play a Primary Spellcaster. Either a Wizard or a Sorcerer. After all, just because magic is nerfed is no reason an arcanist can't be a viable option. Hell, you could say that this is a proper challenge for the class.

Azrael here with a built wizard, Natalie Labelle of Lionsgate. Not 100% finished with the crunch, just need to roll for starting wealth - though, considering her background I was debating taking the Rich Parents trait, but I'd like to see how you would think of that before I went and picked it out.

Wealth: 2d6 ⇒ (1, 5) = 6x10gp = 60gp

Whaddya say, WhtKnt? Got a good party yet? =)

I'll give it until mid-week for stragglers to kick in. Recruitment will officially close at 11:59 CST, Wednesday Sept 18.

I have no issue with the Rich Parents trait, Natalie.

So just playing advocate here...

While the gunslingers of the group do massive damage against touch AC, the wizard in the corner spends an entire minute to cast a d4 magic missile...

I see that hybrids (at least the ranger and paladin) get some love for losing spell casting.

Do the casters get weapon proficiency? able to wear armor? better hit die?

This isn't a slight nerf, it's suicide.

The gunslingers and fighters can pull triggers and swing swords all day without getting tired. While the wizard finds himself fatigued after that one eety bitty d4 magic missile?

Wouldn't it be better to just say no full casters? Here I am, sitting in a bar, hiring people to escort some professor to an ancient castle that he thinks has a hidden library of ancient texts.

Why would I hire a cleric or wizard that will take more resources to protect than will provide in benefits to my group? I only have enough gold to hire six people.

Citing the effects of the changes on a full caster at low level is disingenuous. Everyone is well aware that it is several levels before a full caster comes into their own. Once they do, however, they own the game.

Though I do have to wonder why gunslingers were included if the intention was to limit player power. That class really does have issues.

Hmmmm. Gunslingers were included because there is a place in the world with developing firearms.

You may be right, though gunslingers do have a few issues of their own, at low levels. Remember that early firearms (which all are considered in this campaign) have a chance of misfiring and becoming broken (or exploding) and have limited capacity before needing to be reloaded (which takes time and provides AoOs). Finally, recall that ammunition is both expensive and heavy, and that gunslingers must carry black powder with them as well.

However, in the interest of fairness, I will entertain suggestions for how to deal with the apparent disparity.

More or less finished - it's really hard to find a way to spend so much money when you don't really need or use masterwork weapons or armor.

As the person playing a wizard, I fully understand the challenges inherent with this particular system. Hitting that DC 15+ every time you want to cast a spell means at 1st level, she'll have a 25% failure rate for casting. That's not even considering the fatiguing effects, which will happen a lot. Then again, fatigue and exhaustion aren't as critical conditions for a spellcaster, as they effect mostly Strength and Dexterity and don't prevent them from continuing to cast spells.

Since the Spellcraft skill will get better over levels, that also decreases the rate of failure casting a spell - at 5th level, with a rank put into Spellcraft every level and with a 4th level bump of Intelligence to 18, that gives her a modifier of +15. Which means the fail rate for 1st level spells has become only Nat 1, 10% for 2nd level spells, and 15% for 3rd. By 10th level, that's a +23 modifier with the Skill Focus feat, meaning only a natural 1 would cause her to fail the casting of any spell from 1st to 5th level.

Spellcasters are not nearly as nerfed as the system makes them out to be. You just have to look at the numbers logically.

Yes, gunslingers have issues at low levels. They are like wizards. They start out slow and eventually come to a plateau above everyone. The disparity between touch and normal AC ends up huge. I suppose it depends on the level you intend to play to, but if high level is included gunslingers get ridiculous (eventually their guns no longer misfire at all). Reloading is easily driven down to a free action on a pistol (or even a musket eventually).

The gunslinger does admittedly suck for about five levels. Then they start to accelerate. By double digit levels they will be making you pull out hair as a GM. But it's your game of course. If I might counsel one thing, outlaw the double barreled weapons. Those are pretty clearly the most broken part of the class when fully exploited.

What is actually funny is that the muzzle loading double barrel weapons are higher in DPR than more advanced firearms (when a full build comes together).

True enough, but by the time gunslingers reach high levels, they are facing nasty-bad things that can ignore their touch attacks and eat them for breakfast. <evil GM grin>

You know, I've always wondered why exactly GMs just don't implement this particular rule concerning firearms:

- Magical armor is applied to the touch AC vs. firearms, unless that firearm has an enhancement bonus greater than the armor. For example, a +1 breastplate would apply its AC towards any firearm attack that would otherwise be resolved as a touch attack, unless that firearm has an enhancement bonus of +2 or higher.

Course, seeing as this is a low-magic campaign, just include a 'bulletproof' benefit on masterwork armors that adds a particular amount of AC against firearms.

With clustered shots I'm not sure there is much that can ignore their touch attacks. They likely need to be mobbed to be taken down.

Can a gunslinger use clustered shot? With a gun that has more than one barrel, or a revolver, that would be a viable feat. But even if reloading gets knocked down to a free action, you can't reload as part of a full-attack action. So even at higher levels with feats like Rapid Shot, you're limited to the number of barrels your gun possesses.

That's actually the point of giving gunslingers a deed like Dead Shot, to fully utilize their BAB using grit.

You surely can reload as a full attack action. Do you think arrows magically sprout from the strings of bows? You have to reload a bow from a quivver. It's just that reloading an arrow starts as a free action. As long as reloading is a free action, a full attack is perfection within the scope of RAW.

No, see, that's like saying you can full attack with a regular crossbow if you can reload it as a free action - the reason you can fire a bow as a full attack is because you can have the arrows in hand for each draw. Reloading a crossbow or a gun requires complex actions - a free action is not always free. If I were the GM, I would rule that you could reload the barrels of a firearm once as a free action. Considering the nature of firearms, that's a fair trade off for only having to hit touch AC.

But this is derailing the thread, so I'll ask a question about my character build - can I use some of my starting gold to purchase new spells for my spellbook? Justifying it as spells she'd have been able to learn while apprenticing with her master.

Yes, you may purchase spells as though they were scrolls.

Just to be clear, 25gp per 1st level spell?

Aye.

All right, I think I'm pretty much finished now with equipment and such - note I've used the rules as you've laid them out for masterwork equipment (Fine quality +50gp, 1 benefit). If you have any questions about my equipment choices, please feel free to ask or outright veto if you think it necessary. I do hope that she's interesting enough to include in this campaign.

Actually, when it comes to crossbows, hand and light crossbows may be fired multiple times as a full attack action when you have Rapid Reload. So assuming you can reload as a free action, then there would be no reason not to be able to do so. I just think a lot of the gunslinger features are nerfed, but one can easily compinsate for it.

Everyone is focused on 'fixing' gunslingers, yet there has only been one comment about 'fixing' spellcasters to make it worth playing them. My suggestion is to remove the Knowledge check altogether, but leave the constitution check. Since there is already a system in place for targets to save against most offensive spells (e.g. Will save negates effect), why double jeapordize us? You can leave the Consitution check to reflect the physically draining aspect of spells that the PF system does overlook.

Or you could just make it a pecentile roll. 10 to 20 percent would make it difficult to cast while at the same time not debuffing the career so much that no one wants too play them.

Good point, Hagnar. Alright, we'll 86 the Knowledge/Spellcraft checks for casters.

Okay, thus far we have:

Hagnar Grimstone [Devil Dog] - Dwarf Cleric
Fergor Hart [DFSearles] - Human Fighter
Sequin Avestani [WalkingDED] - Half-elf Rogue
Lucius [DrBuzzard] - Human Monk
Lucian Faucon [Talomyr] - Half-elf Ranger
Reigar Brolo [ArmlessBaby] - Gnome Gunslinger
Natalie Labelle [Azrael Dukshi] - Human Transmuter

If I've missed you (which is entirely possible), please let me know!

Well, then, I guess I should adjust Natalie's build to reflect the change. I was kind of looking forward to the mechanic from a roleplaying perspective, though. Unreliable magic makes sense in a low-magic world.

I agree, and I really don't think it was that much of a nerf, but public opinion seems to disagree.

I think it has more to do with the only other spellcasting class to apply having a low modifier for those checks. Which is why I'd propose that since Spellcraft is quite literally a skill that every spellcasting class has, for the purpose of casting spells it should use the main spellcasting ability modifier. So for clerics and druids, that would be wisdom - sorcerers and bards, Charisma.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that while this system would always have a risk for casting spells 'on the fly', the fact you can take 10 means that for most spellcasters, it's impossible to flub a spell if you take a minute to cast it properly. Which means for spells that buff and heal or do divinations, you can easily cast them outside of a combat situation.

If the only penalty to magic was that people got fatigued and exhausted, then why would this be a low-magic world? Unless we take it to the next extreme, of course: Failing your constitution check when you're exhausted and casting a spell causes some kind of damage to your body (Either Con damage or Wound/Vigor). So spellcasters can kill themselves casting spells if they aren't careful.

As I was saying earlier, Just making a skill check doesn't mean that it is a low magic world either. With the proper stats and feats, as long as you don't roll a 1 you can't fail either. For example if I have a Half-Elf Wizard:
Rank--------------1
Trained-----------3
Int---------------5
Skill Focus-------3
Magical Aptitude--2
Total------------14
All I need is a 2 to pass the check to cast a spell. AT LEVEL 1! Not to mention that I haven't included any traits that boost spell craft either. Makes you wonder why there aren't any item crafters in the world now huh.
That is why I suggested a percentile. If you are in an area where approximately 1/4 of the spells cast don't work, then roll d100 and try for above 25, if it's a fifty fifty shot, then shoot for above 50. That way, the "Mana" flow is unstable, and all spell casters are subject to this flux, not just the low level ones.

That's a lot of optimization you've got going there for a wizard, but I'd agree with you that linking it to a skill is probably not a good idea. So why not link it to concentration instead? Something like:

Concentration check vs. 10 + twice spell level.

So, for a 1st level spell, that's a DC of 12 to beat. Being less generous than your example of a +5 ability modifier, let's say there's an average of a +4 concentration modifier for a 1st level caster (+3 ability, +1 level). There you need an 8 or higher to successfully cast the spell, but you can probably still 'take 10' and increase the casting time by 10x to cast it successfully.

With this method, as the caster progresses in level, they become more capable with casting lower level spells with a higher success rate while higher level spells tend to be more difficult but not unfeasible. So the 10th level wizard might be able to cast 1st level spells without a hitch, but 5th level spells are still a risky venture.

Still, this is just a suggestion, and as one of two submitted characters that can cast spells, I'd be more than willing to go along with this. Even using the Mishap and 'expended spell slot if result is 5+ lower than DC' part of the original rules. I knew I was going for something difficult when I chose to be a spellcaster, which is why I picked it. But if all this debate about the house rules regarding magic is wearing thin, I'll just shut up about it and let it be however our GM wants it to be.

Okay, because I like the Take 10 for 10x casting time mechanic, if the spellcasters are in agreement to this, we'll play it as Natalie has suggested.

Lucian (with background and initial equipment purchases) is finally complete. If you have any questions just ask.

Thanks for considering the character.

So make a concentration check (d20 + Caster level + appropriate ability score modifier) as the skill check req'd to successfully cast a spell, with a DC of 10 + twice spell level. Taking 10 is acceptable. Still need to make CON check for spells above 0-level at DC10+ spell level.

I'm game! I agree with Natalie - knew going in it would be challenging and willing to accept it. But you did ask for our thoughts =)

And now I'm going to re-look at my feats since I don't have to plus up knowledge (religion)! :p

(Face palm) I really just want to clobber some badguys right now.

I wonder if anyone got the name reffrences in my background?

Yes, and I'm wondering if you're planning on being a vampire slayer. If there are vampires in this world.

Can we be expecting a message if we're chosen? I'd really like to avoid vampires, buying ammunition to deal with those troubles would be ridiculous.

Based on WhtKnt's post earlier, he's still taking submissions for another 1.5 hours or so.

Oh yes, there are vampires and other nasty undead aplenty. As to recruitment, it is open until midnight, but I have to sleep, so I will make my decisions in the morn. No submissions will be accepted after 11:59 CST, however.